Ellsworth 650b Epiphany

[dwt]

Ellsworth Carbon Evolve 29er, 650B Epiphany Full Suspension Mountain Bikes Debut - Bike Rumor

[fugot]

Well i can dream about getting the 650b, but no dinero to spend.

[reformed roadie]

Over-priced and outdated.
No, I've never ridden one, but I have never ridden a URT bike either...

[dwt]

Over-priced and outdated.
No, I've never ridden one, but I have never ridden a URT bike either...

It's another choice, but agreed WAY overpriced. What are they thinking?


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[Kirk Pacenti]

It's another choice, but agreed WAY overpriced. What are they thinking?


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Not a fan of the brand... but my guess it has something to do with the fact that it's a US made product in a niche market that has very little competition right now.

Cheers,
KP

[reformed roadie]

Not a fan of the brand... but my guess it has something to do with the fact that it's a US made product in a niche market that has very little competition right now.

Cheers,
KP

When you compare it to the Intense and Turner 650b bikes, both relatively small and US made, but with up to date suspension and IMHO, well executed designs, it seems even more outrageous.

Good luck Tony.


PS - Kirk, can we expect anything new from you at Interbike?

[Kirk Pacenti]

When you compare it to the Intense and Turner 650b bikes, both relatively small and US made, but with up to date suspension and IMHO, well executed designs, it seems even more outrageous.

Good luck Tony.


PS - Kirk, can we expect anything new from you at Interbike?

Trying to give them the benefit of the doubt...

Maybe some new stuff... if not actual product, we'll certainly have a press release and maybe some images.

Cheers,
KP

[Johnny Hair Boy]

When you compare it to the Intense and Turner 650b bikes, both relatively small and US made, but with up to date suspension and IMHO, well executed designs, it seems even more outrageous.

Good luck Tony.


PS - Kirk, can we expect anything new from you at Interbike?

Why would they change a suspension that works so well and out performs the 2 that you mentioned.

If it matters we carry both Intense and Turner as well as Ellsworth at the shop I work at.

[dwt]

The made in USA competition:

Turner Burner frame $2475
Intense Tracer 275 frame $2269
Ventana Zeus frame $2445

You'd have to be a big Ellsworth fan to pay the premium for the frame. Personally I'd go for one of the others, and put the savings toward forks, wheels and components. Or go for a carbon frame.


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[Hurricane Jeff]

I have to agree with Kirk, and yes the Ellsworth suspension may seem outdated, but over the years there have been some upgrades. Its funny that I dont hear much about the Big S and their seemingly outdated suspension designs, but I hear about others....Im I missing something here?

[textbookonewk]

I'm with Kirk and Jeff here. They're pricing is too rich for my blood, but they have a business model that works for them.

As far as the suspension design, if it aint broke why fix it. I don't have enough experience with all of the new suspension designs to compare them, so I won't. I do know that most consumers just want something new, but I'll take a tried and true technology over marketing hype. No offense to any of the other suspension designs out there, they might work great as well, but I would not change my design just for the sake of change.

[vmaxx4]

One of my regularly ridden bikes is an Intense, which I like a lot. Last year at Outerbike I was looking for a bike to finish off the last hour of riding time on the first day. Ellsworth was one of the only tents still signing out bikes. I absolutely loved the Epiphany, hands down the surprise test bike of the weekend.

[reformed roadie]

One of my regularly ridden bikes is an Intense, which I like a lot. Last year at Outerbike I was looking for a bike to finish off the last hour of riding time on the first day. Ellsworth was one of the only tents still signing out bikes. I absolutely loved the Epiphany, hands down the surprise test bike of the weekend.

So you had an epiphany...(whu, whu, wha...)

[dwt]

Another more tasty frame:
Rocky mountain Altitude carbon, frame only, $2,800

http://www.29ercafe.com/2012/08/new-...ikes-for-2013/


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[outside!]

Over-priced and outdated.
No, I've never ridden one, but I have never ridden a URT bike either...

I have ridden one and I have spent a short amount of time on a Turner. The "newer" suspension designs your are referring to are very good designs, but it must be kept in mind that one of their biggest design criteria when they were designed was getting around the Horst and ICT patents of Specialized and Ellsworth. Horst, ICT (whch is a type of Horst), VPP and DW Links are all four bar designs with the wheel axle isolated from the frame (unlike the faux bar). The Horst link patent has expired. It will be interesting to see which suspension design becomes the most common when the ICT, VPP and DW Link patents expire. My guess is that it will be an ICT type design with some of the axle path attributes of the DW Link. I do agree with you that the Ellsworth is very expensive, but I would rather spend the money on the frame I like and run XT and aluminum wheels before I would save money on the frame and blow money on XX or XTR and carbon wheels.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I have ridden one and I have spent a short amount of time on a Turner. The "newer" suspension designs your are referring to are very good designs, but it must be kept in mind that one of their biggest design criteria when they were designed was getting around the Horst and ICT patents of Specialized and Ellsworth. Horst, ICT (whch is a type of Horst), VPP and DW Links are all four bar designs with the wheel axle isolated from the frame (unlike the faux bar). The Horst link patent has expired. It will be interesting to see which suspension design becomes the most common when the ICT, VPP and DW Link patents expire. My guess is that it will be an ICT type design with some of the axle path attributes of the DW Link. I do agree with you that the Ellsworth is very expensive, but I would rather spend the money on the frame I like and run XT and aluminum wheels before I would save money on the frame and blow money on XX or XTR and carbon wheels.

What I find interesting is the number of big brands that are offering single pivot (faux bar) designs. Maybe the big companies can rely on their size, dealer network and marketing muscle to sell bikes, whereas smaller brands are relying on more innovative / more sophisticated solutions...??? Maybe single pivot bikes work well enough?

Bikes like the Cannondale Rush & Prophet, Santa Cruz Superlight & Heckler, Orange Five & Patriot not to mention Foes, Xprezo, Morewood among others, still get rave reviews with 20 year old, single pivot suspension technology.

Not sure if there's a point... just rambling. But I've always thought a well designed single pivot bike is hard to beat. They may be hard(er) to sell in today's high tech suspension wars, but they still offer a lot of bang for the buck imo.

Cheers,
KP

[outside!]

What I find interesting is the number of big brands that are offering single pivot (faux bar) designs. Maybe the big companies can rely on their size, dealer network and marketing muscle to sell bikes, whereas smaller brands are relying on more innovative / more sophisticated solutions...??? Maybe single pivot bikes work well enough?

Bikes like the Cannondale Rush & Prophet, Santa Cruz Superlight & Heckler, Orange Five & Patriot not to mention Foes, Xprezo, Morewood among others, still get rave reviews with 20 year old, single pivot suspension technology.

Not sure if there's a point... just rambling. But I've always thought a well designed single pivot bike is hard to beat. They may be hard(er) to sell in today's high tech suspension wars, but they still offer a lot of bang for the buck imo.

Cheers,
KP

You are right Kirk, there are many great single pivot bikes. I rode a faux bar Rocky Mountain Element T.O. for several years. For my riding needs and desire to be kind to my lower back, it was better than a hardtail. While I liked that bike, it definitely had it's issues. It required a smooth pedal stroke and would punish poor gear selection or standing on climbs and it definitely stiffened up under braking. The right shock can tame and maybe even fix many single pivot suspension design problems, but shocks are not currently smart enough to fix the brake jack issue. With disc brakes, it is easier to isolate the braking forces from the swingarm, but that is almost as complicated as four bar design. My wife's Santa Cruz Superlight rides better than the old RM but in my opinion that is mostly due to the newer platform shock (other than pivot location, what else can you change on a single pivot design?) Single pivot suspensions can be very good, but in my opinion, four bar designs can be better than any single pivot design, and do it using a less complicated shock.

Ellsworth has it's issues and I am not a fanboy, but the ICT design works well for riders that want a plush suspension that isn't a pig on climbs. For those that are interested, look up what "instant center" means in terms of four bar linkages, then look at the various four bar designs and envision how the instant center moves as the suspension cycles through it's stroke. It is not complicated and the same concepts have been used in car front suspension designs for years where moving the instant center as far below the vehicle as possible helps to limit body roll.

[Kirk Pacenti]

You are right Kirk, there are many great single pivot bikes. I rode a faux bar Rocky Mountain Element T.O. for several years. For my riding needs and desire to be kind to my lower back, it was better than a hardtail. While I liked that bike, it definitely had it's issues. It required a smooth pedal stroke and would punish poor gear selection or standing on climbs and it definitely stiffened up under braking. The right shock can tame and maybe even fix many single pivot suspension design problems, but shocks are not currently smart enough to fix the brake jack issue. With disc brakes, it is easier to isolate the braking forces from the swingarm, but that is almost as complicated as four bar design. My wife's Santa Cruz Superlight rides better than the old RM but in my opinion that is mostly due to the newer platform shock (other than pivot location, what else can you change on a single pivot design?) Single pivot suspensions can be very good, but in my opinion, four bar designs can be better than any single pivot design, and do it using a less complicated shock.

Ellsworth has it's issues and I am not a fanboy, but the ICT design works well for riders that want a plush suspension that isn't a pig on climbs. For those that are interested, look up what "instant center" means in terms of four bar linkages, then look at the various four bar designs and envision how the instant center moves as the suspension cycles through it's stroke. It is not complicated and the same concepts have been used in car front suspension designs for years where moving the instant center as far below the vehicle as possible helps to limit body roll.

We're likely on the same page on most of these points. And I am the first to point out that all good design comes down to the ability to manage compromise.

The reason I mention 1x drive-trians is that this will allow further optimization and better performance from a single pivot design. The minute you have multiple chain rings, you have to make some compromises in the anti-squat department.

I have a great 4MB PDF on this subject for anyone interested.

Cheers,
KP

[stu44]

I have a great 4MB PDF on this subject for anyone interested.

Cheers,
KP

Interested Kirk, you know where to send it,

Cheers

[dwt]

Ditto

[outside!]

Kirk,

I would love to see that.

Thanks!

[Saddle Up]

I've learnt a lot from this thread, thanks folks.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk,

I would love to see that.

Thanks!

email me off list kirk@pacenticycledesign.com

[skidad]

1 x 10 or 11 with no provision/compromises for a FD along with elevated chain stays (Prophet, Rush, Heckler, Marin Quad 2 etc) could open up allot of possibilities. Especially for 29'ers if you could get good torsional strength.

Yeah, I want the info also. email sent

[PaintPeelinPbody]

One look at the stem length on the 650B Elsworth and lost interest. I'm over long stems on full suspension bikes. I've got plenty of vintage bikes with 100mm stems.