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  1. #1
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    Is XX1 better for racing vs trail riding

    I ran across a rider on a XC race bike with XX1 and he felt that this system was better suited for XC racing than general trail riding. His reasoning was the wide gaps in the gearing wasn't as usefull as the closer jumps found on typical 2x10 systems. Second question how much weight savings would there be from the 2x10 [XT ]

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    This is my opinion too, 2x10 is better for trail. I like the 2x10 ability to quickly and easily drop or rise a major gear change for trail riding irregular speeds on rough and sudden ups and downs having frequent sudden speed changes. XC racing requires maintaining intensely high momentum all the time, and the incremental cog-only gear changes with no sudden jump in gears with a single ring is fine for maintaining momentum and more reliable for not dropping a chain doing hard ring shifts.

    The weight advantage for single ring is so small, no more than 1 pound overall, has no advantage for trail riding.

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    Courtesy of Bikeradar.com

    As a group, XX1 is lighter than SRAMís flagship XX group. Each of the parts in XX1 is actually heavier than their 2x10 counterparts, but the fact that XX1 does away with a chainring, front derailleur, front shifter, along with the associated cable and housing, results in a net loss of approximately 200 grams.

    So yes probably somewhere in the region of a pound over XT?

  4. #4
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    Is XX1 better for racing vs trail riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post

    So yes probably somewhere in the region of a pound over XT?
    I did the math a while ago using Competitive Cyclist's weights (actual weight, not claimed) and found a full XX1 group to be just under a pound less than my XT drivetrain.

    I'll be running XO 1x10 with a Wolftooth direct mount and its actually going to wind up being lighter than XX1. Just over a pound lighter than XT.

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    Just installed an XX1 setup on my new 29er and all I can say is WOW. For me the 1x11 setup is perfect for the XC riding I do here in Georgia. I don't do any racing but there are many other benefits that I like in the 1x11 XX1 group. I like the 2x10 setups but I love the simplicity of the XX1. No front chain rings, cable, or FR derailleur means less maintenance too. My two other bikes are 1x9 so you can tell where my bias comes from. My only complaint with 1x9 is not enough range, the 1x11 gives me a much wider (10-42) range that I can't get with a 1x9 or 1x10 setup. The smooth shifting clutched rear derailleur, no-drop front chain ring, carbon cranks, and choice of trigger or grip shift are all just bonuses. Any hey, if I save a pound of weight on top of all that, all the better (my new carbon 29er weight came in at 20.5 lbs ).

  6. #6
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    What the hell is "trail" riding?

    People keep on throwing this term around, but the only real difference I can see is that you're likely to be on a heavier bike, wearing baggies and a camelbak, and perhaps on an FS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    What the hell is "trail" riding?

    People keep on throwing this term around, but the only real difference I can see is that you're likely to be on a heavier bike, wearing baggies and a camelbak, and perhaps on an FS.
    Beats the hell out of skin tight lycra......unless your watching the Ladies UCI XCO Championship

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    I have xx1 and like it for "trail riding" and XC. I replaced a 3x10 which I had changed to 1x9 for most trails, but had to add the front little ring and shifter for some of the trails out of town with big climbs. The xx1 does it all for me and I did save weight over my xo stuff and it is just cleaner.

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    Thanks all for the info. Sounds like it depends on the steeper climbs and the individual need for a bailout gear [how strong your legs are].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    What the hell is "trail" riding?

    People keep on throwing this term around, but the only real difference I can see is that you're likely to be on a heavier bike, wearing baggies and a camelbak, and perhaps on an FS.
    Definitely a confusing marketing bs term. XC has become a pejorative term among some people having the connotation of power measurement, weight-weenies, dirt-roads, lycra and only smooth trails. Therefore "trail".

    I've also heard "marathon" which is also very confusing
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    Indeed. I ride just about everything on my XC bike. The Hood River Enduro course was my main training loop when I lived in OR, but apparently that is super "gnar". Someone should have told me an XC racer in skin-tight lycra wasn't allowed to use those trails, as they are "trail" trails, and not "XC" trails.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    Beats the hell out of skin tight lycra......unless your watching the Ladies UCI XCO Championship
    So...the basic difference is you're just riding the same trails, but slower?
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    To me its just riding trails, usually without checking Strava times, lap times, or as we used to say JRA.

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    Don't hate on the lycra. It is comfortable as hell.

    I'm an Ex-baggy wearer. Baggies lose their comfort during 100 mile races.
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  15. #15
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    I don't know - the marketing terms make sense to me. Yeah there's significant overlap, and some bikes in particular really blur the lines, and because of this, I think some people use the terms differently.

    Just my understanding:
    XC = riding best done on a sub 100mm travel bike or hard tail
    Trail = riding best done on a 120-150mm travel bike
    AM = 140mm+, single crown fork
    DH = 180mm+, usually dual crown forks

    Obviously, you can ride any bike on any trail, except on the extreme climbs or extreme descents, but there's usually a set of compromises you have to make when choosing a bike for a ride.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Don't hate on the lycra. It is comfortable as hell.
    Yeah, but most people don't want to see dat ass on a casual trail.

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    My ass is sexy as hell. Deal with it.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    My ass is sexy as hell. Deal with it.
    Yeah, I guess we all have to!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    I don't know - the marketing terms make sense to me. Yeah there's significant overlap, and some bikes in particular really blur the lines, and because of this, I think some people use the terms differently.
    That's the topic of another rant that's been done but IMO many bikes blur the lines. The categories pigeonhole, are limiting and confusing. Less so for people who've had lots of time riding just plain old bikes. Moreso for people who are new to riding but are now told that their bikes are inappropriate for their trails. Look at how many questions there are about whether or not one can ride a trail bike on AM trails just as an example; and this isn't just on the internet discussion boards but also in real life.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeL View Post
    That's the topic of another rant that's been done but IMO many bikes blur the lines. The categories pigeonhole, are limiting and confusing. Less so for people who've had lots of time riding just plain old bikes. Moreso for people who are new to riding but are now told that their bikes are inappropriate for their trails. Look at how many questions there are about whether or not one can ride a trail bike on AM trails just as an example; and this isn't just on the internet discussion boards but also in real life.
    I agree with you. Even this topic uses "trail" in a different sense.

    I started out on a Trek 4300 and rode all kinds of crap I "shouldn't have" on that bike. Figured life would be easier if I could roll over more stuff easily, so I bought a used 29er for $900, which led me to more trails I "shouldn't have" ridden on that bike. Two years later, I'm riding a 125mm "trail" bike with a 140mm fork and it's perfect for 90% of what I ride.

    I really don't think of those terms as pigeon holes for each bike, mainly because there's really no narrow definition for them. I think people should ask - do I want my bike to be good at climbing or good at descending? Then see where they fit on a sliding scale.

  21. #21
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    I wear Lycra trail riding, also wear Fox baggy shorts, my riding partner trail rides sometimes at speeds most racers would like to do, He rides a Specialized Epic carbon that weighs maybe 23lbs. I ride a 140mm 29r usually slower than he rides, We ride some trails in GJ,and Moab that some would call All-Mountain,but sometimes we find smooth flowy non-rocky trails. We never realized we had to adhere to a strick dress code or bike travel and weight to ride all these great trails we ride We just ride trails without timing each other or a finishing order. Our bad for just trail riding!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fruitafrank View Post
    I wear Lycra trail riding, also wear Fox baggy shorts, my riding partner trail rides sometimes at speeds most racers would like to do, He rides a Specialized Epic carbon that weighs maybe 23lbs. I ride a 140mm 29r usually slower than he rides, We ride some trails in GJ,and Moab that some would call All-Mountain,but sometimes we find smooth flowy non-rocky trails. We never realized we had to adhere to a strick dress code or bike travel and weight to ride all these great trails we ride We just ride trails without timing each other or a finishing order. Our bad for just trail riding!
    Pardon me for being brash, but part of the problem with this debate is that people get so butthurt by the mere suggestion that some bikes are better at some things than others. If this wasn't the case, then we'd be riding beach cruisers down a mountain.

    Fact is, almost any "XC", "Trail", or "AM" bike will be able to ridden up and down almost any trail, and its rider will have fun doing it. How fast you want to do it, how plush you want the ride to be, whether you want to jump, how efficient you want the climb to be...that's where choice and personal preference comes in, and different people find different elements of riding to be more important than others. Anyone saying different is the one doing the pigeon-holing. Marketing a bike as being good at something doesn't mean it's unrideable on something else.

    And as for the lycra - I'm a function over fashion kind of dude. I speak for myself, but if you want to wear lycra, go right ahead. From everything I hear, they're way more comfy than shorts and they stay put. But come on - lycra's the "tighty whitey" of the mtb world - people are gonna poke fun.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    And as for the lycra - I'm a function over fashion kind of dude. I speak for myself, but if you want to wear lycra, go right ahead. From everything I hear, they're way more comfy than shorts and they stay put. But come on - lycra's the "tighty whitey" of the mtb world - people are gonna poke fun.
    Nobody has ever poked fun at my lyrca and if they did, they weren't man enough to do it in front of me.

    I dont give shit if you show up with a leaf glued to your ass, lets ride.
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    I went XX1 (front only) on both my 2013 Carbon Stumpy 29er, and on my 2013 Scalpel 29er and I must say it was the most worthwhile upgrade I have ever made other than adding lighter wheels.
    I do know for a fact that swapping the XX1 with the S-1250 2x from my Stumpy reduced the overall weight of my bike by a full 1lb. 4oz., and actually a bit more on my Scalpel, which had a slightly heavier S-1000 2x crankset.
    So far, I have NEVER missed having the "other" 10 gears on the old set up, and it is also great with a 32T, effectively raising the BB height and keeping me from smacking rocks....
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Nobody has ever poked fun at my lyrca and if they did, they weren't man enough to do it in front of me.

    I dont give shit if you show up with a leaf glued to your ass, lets ride.
    If you were my friend, I'd probably make fun of you, then go buy a pair after the ride. Mostly because I have a bike gear problem.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    I agree with you. Even this topic uses "trail" in a different sense.

    ...
    I really don't think of those terms as pigeon holes for each bike, mainly because there's really no narrow definition for them. I think people should ask - do I want my bike to be good at climbing or good at descending? Then see where they fit on a sliding scale.
    Couldn't agree more. The problem is that the breakdowns seem to confuse people. We both seem to come from the school of more experience which perhaps colours our views about this.



    Quote Originally Posted by fruitafrank View Post
    I wear Lycra trail riding, also wear Fox baggy shorts, my riding partner trail rides sometimes at speeds most racers would like to do, He rides a Specialized Epic carbon that weighs maybe 23lbs. I ride a 140mm 29r usually slower than he rides, We ride some trails in GJ,and Moab that some would call All-Mountain,but sometimes we find smooth flowy non-rocky trails. We never realized we had to adhere to a strick dress code or bike travel and weight to ride all these great trails we ride We just ride trails without timing each other or a finishing order. Our bad for just trail riding!
    To relate to your original question. I think XX1 probably would be fine for Fruita general riding but those who bang out consecutive days after days without rest (especially at altitude) might feel the need for granny. That's a "might" because cardio monsters or those who don't recover by spinning might not miss it.

    IMO the bad thing about those terms is that it can confuse people but those who either don't feel themselves confined to categories or those who've ridden trails on bikes (just bikes, no categories) probably don't find the marketing terms terribly useful. Fwiw I agree with your take on it

    Now can anyone explain to me what is Marathon ??
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    Some good info here and also some tangental rants, I think most got the diff. from a racing standpoint to casual riding. Thanks and out.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Only In America do people get so hung up on what to wear, Funny as hell.

    I could care less.
    Wanna ride nekkid and get yer get yer balls hung on a tree branch ? be my guest. It's not my business.

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    Beauty of the XX1 is if they make the ring in the tooth size to fit your riding / leg power then you may find XX1 will work. The simplicity of swapping the ring to suit your needs does open it up to more people and areas of riding than most cranks would do.

    Think you can split bikes in to two main categories....Mountain bikes and Downhill bikes. A trails a trail it may just be harder on one type of bike than another.

    We recently ran a trail/natural trail and there were three of us ... i had a 100mm 29er hardtail, my one mate had a 140 Ibis SL-R and my other mate had a 160mm Heavy duty Cove we all rode the trail easily and all together. Now if id taken the Hardtail down a Downhill run id have struggled.

    PS none of us wore lycra

  30. #30
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    More related to the OP's question than some of my other rants:

    If you're looking at XX1, but are scared off by the price, consider going 1x10 with a Wolf Tooth ring. Your spread won't be as good as XX1, but your wallet will thank you. If you have a 104BCD spider, the smallest you can go is a 30T front ring which will leave you without your bottom two gears (assuming you're on a 26T small ring right now), but with a GXP crank, you'll be able to go all the way from 22 to 38T, your choice, for your front ring. 30T and below are not in production yet, but will be in a few weeks.

    You'll be missing a few gears on the top and bottom end (or up to 4 on one end), but if the type of riding you do doesn't call for a really high high end or a low low end, this might be the ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    .

    PS none of us wore lycra

    You are missing out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    What the hell is "trail" riding?
    Riding bicycles on trails for entertainment. No Strava.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Riding bicycles on trails for entertainment. No Strava.
    No Strava is a crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Yeah, but most people don't want to see dat ass on a casual trail.
    I could not care less what those fools want or do not want to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I could not care less what those fools want or do not want to see.
    It may seem like I'm contradicting myself, here, but I couldn't care less what other people think, and I couldn't care less about what people think I think. If you like lycra, wear it. If you like Strava, use it. Any crap I give people for wearing lycra is in jest only, and if it's more comfy, I'll probably try it at some point.

    I use Strava and get a kick out of besting myself and seeing how I stack up against others, mostly on climbs I've done over and over. To get to the top, throw up, and eventually see that someone was 40% faster than you...it's humbling. And, yes, fun! As long as you're not an ******* on the trail, who's to say that riding without Strava is more or less fun than riding with it? Whether or not I'm trying to be fast, I always have it on so at the end of the ride I know how far I've gone, how much I've climbed, and so I can relate how I feel on a ride with how I've done in the past.

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    Hey Frank,
    The XX1 with the 28 tooth front ring will give basically what you are running now on your LT. I'm running my SB95 with 24/32 front with bash. The 28 ring on the XX1 gives you the climbing gear of the 24 front on the double. i'm going to try the XX1. See you in the fall at McD.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    who's to say that riding without Strava is more or less fun than riding with it?
    I am to say that. It is my opinion.

    That said, I did not say that Strava is useless or bad. I was giving the definition of "trail riding": silly competitive aspect removed. Just enjoy the trail, dammit.

    ..for timing myself I find a simple stopwatch to be easier to use. Paper maps and compass work great too. So does 1x10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I am to say that. It is my opinion.
    What I meant was "who's to say what's fun for someone else". What you meant was "it's more fun for me without Strava."

    All I'm saying is that running Strava every ride doesn't pre-determine what kind of ride you're going to have. People were "racing" and "trail riding" for decades before Strava came along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I am to say that. It is my opinion.

    That said, I did not say that Strava is useless or bad. I was giving the definition of "trail riding": silly competitive aspect removed. Just enjoy the trail, dammit.

    ..for timing myself I find a simple stopwatch to be easier to use. Paper maps and compass work great too. So does 1x10.
    Paper maps work fairly well, as long as they're accurate. Compass only works if you aren't near any iron ore deposites, magnetite, etc. And you have identifiable reference points that you can see in order to section/resection.

    Doesn't work worth a damn in the woods if you can't see reference points, or can't determine which is which.

    That, and you know how to correct for deviation. If not, a compass won't do you much good.

    That's a lot of "ifs".

    Whereas a GPS, provided half of the horizon isn't obscured by rock, and you have battery power, will almost always work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Pardon me for being brash, but part of the problem with this debate is that people get so butthurt by the mere suggestion that some bikes are better at some things than others. If this wasn't the case, then we'd be riding beach cruisers down a mountain.

    Fact is, almost any "XC", "Trail", or "AM" bike will be able to ridden up and down almost any trail, and its rider will have fun doing it. How fast you want to do it, how plush you want the ride to be, whether you want to jump, how efficient you want the climb to be...that's where choice and personal preference comes in, and different people find different elements of riding to be more important than others. Anyone saying different is the one doing the pigeon-holing. Marketing a bike as being good at something doesn't mean it's unrideable on something else.

    And as for the lycra - I'm a function over fashion kind of dude. I speak for myself, but if you want to wear lycra, go right ahead. From everything I hear, they're way more comfy than shorts and they stay put. But come on - lycra's the "tighty whitey" of the mtb world - people are gonna poke fun.
    Nailed it! Thanks for bringing some well needed perspective to this discussion.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Riding bicycles on trails for entertainment. No Strava.
    So, if I ride the same bicycle, with a group of similar composition, wearing the same clothes, but my GPS is recording, is that not "trail" riding? If not, what is it?

    Does one have to be using Strava to be riding "XC"? What if you are not using Strava, but wearing Lycra, on a 150mm bike, hitting jumps?

    Isn't one's interpretation of entertainment subjective? Don't we all derive pleasure from different things? Can't I be entertained while using Strava?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    So, if I ride the same bicycle, with a group of similar composition, wearing the same clothes, but my GPS is recording, is that not "trail" riding? If not, what is it?

    Does one have to be using Strava to be riding "XC"? What if you are not using Strava, but wearing Lycra, on a 150mm bike, hitting jumps?

    Isn't one's interpretation of entertainment subjective? Don't we all derive pleasure from different things? Can't I be entertained while using Strava?
    Its simple:
    Strava + Baggies = no fun
    Strava + Lycra = some fun
    Stopwatch + map + compass = "just riding the trail" = tons of fun

    Similarly:
    XC + AM = Ford CMAX
    Strava + CMAX = Lycra

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    Quote Originally Posted by fruitafrank View Post
    I ran across a rider on a XC race bike with XX1 and he felt that this system was better suited for XC racing than general trail riding. His reasoning was the wide gaps in the gearing wasn't as usefull as the closer jumps found on typical 2x10 systems.
    If the reason for deciding on one gearing solution than the other is the gaps between gears rather than the overall spread, I would say closer gear ratios is more for racing and wider gaps is more for the casual rider.

    If you have closer gear ratios you can get into the most efficient gear for you at that time. You aren't spinning out, or wasting energy by cranking hard to get the gear to work. If you are a casual rider you don't care so much about wasting a little energy, or being a little slower due to not having the exact right gear.

    Look at road biking. On a race bike you have lots of gears with a small spread. On touring road bikes you have a much bigger spread between the gears.

    FWIW I'm currently on XX1 and use it for racing and trail riding (I wear Lycra and baggies). When I say racing I'm stretching the term a bit - I'm a middle of the pack in CAT 2. Either way I love XX1 for both and (at this stage) can't see me going back to using an FD ever again.

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    Just ordered the XX1 crank only with 32 ring. Will be mated 10 speed 11-36 in back. Hopefully good enough for some XC fun in north texas. Currently have 2x10 setup but was having chain drop issues. Also have XO type 2 long cage dr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Its simple:
    Strava + Baggies = no fun
    Strava + Lycra = some fun
    Stopwatch + map + compass = "just riding the trail" = tons of fun
    What are you using the Stopwatch + map + compass for? Are you using it to calculate your average speed, distance traveled etc then log it down using a quill on some parchment?

    If so I'd rather use Strava and spend the time you use to work everything out on more riding, but hey, that's just me....

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbco1975 View Post
    What are you using the Stopwatch + map + compass for? Are you using it to calculate your average speed, distance traveled etc then log it down using a quill on some parchment?

    If so I'd rather use Strava and spend the time you use to work everything out on more riding, but hey, that's just me....
    The internet REALLY needs a sarcasm font. I thought my "math" would be ridiculous enough to convey that, but I guess not.

    Earlier in this thread, Axe (post #37) said he prefers a stopwatch, map, and compass to Strava. Me, I find it easier to let Strava run in my Camelbak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    The internet REALLY needs a sarcasm font. I thought my "math" would be ridiculous enough to convey that, but I guess not.

    Earlier in this thread, Axe (post #37) said he prefers a stopwatch, map, and compass to Strava. Me, I find it easier to let Strava run in my Camelbak.
    Ooops. Yeah I agree, we do need a sarcasm font

    I'll get my coat on the way out.....

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Doesn't work worth a damn in the woods if you can't see reference points, or can't determine which is which.
    Not in my experience. I have done many adventure and orienteering races, in the woods, at night, alone, and a map, compass and stopwatch are more than enough. Just know your pace, follow terrain. No batteries needed. For classical orienteering or rogaines - with good lidar based maps - paper map alone is much faster than any electronic doodad. Newer GPS receivers are more sensitive - few years ago they where not worth a damn in a wooded area. I am as geek as anybody, but I am often appalled how badly many supposedly outdoor enthusiasts can find their way around in the outdoors.

    We digressed.. but that always happens when people argue about what kind of riding is what..

  49. #49
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    Is XX1 better for racing vs trail riding

    Not for nothin', Axe, but I find it all kinds of badass that you can keep track of your riding that way.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Not for nothin', Axe, but I find it all kinds of badass that you can keep track of your riding that way.
    Plug for a local event: Get Lost!! Running, Racing Come, try out finding your way around. No GPS.

    Back on topic - 1x10, or even XX1 is probably not low enough for a day at Henry Coe park. ..for most normal people..

  51. #51
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    1x11 is really interesting to me....but I would need a 28T front ring to match the current 22/36 gearing that I currently have now.

    Maybe when it trickles down to X9...I'll give it a shot. That $400 dollar XX1 cassette is going to be an expensive experiment.

  52. #52
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    XX1 was designed to suit all types of riding.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    1x11 is really interesting to me....but I would need a 28T front ring to match the current 22/36 gearing that I currently have now.

    Maybe when it trickles down to X9...I'll give it a shot. That $400 dollar XX1 cassette is going to be an expensive experiment.
    I went from a 22T small ring to a 26T small ring when I went from 3x10 to 2x10. It was tough for all of 3-4 rides, and my legs adapted REALLY quickly, and I had spent most climbs in my lowest gear.

    Are you running X9 cranks right now? In a few weeks, WolfTooth will be coming out with a direct mount 22, 24, and 26T chainring. You could get whichever one is about halfway in between your current setup and the XX1 to see if your legs can cope. If not, you're only $80 out, and you'll probably just want to keep your 1x10 setup.

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    Just to answer trail vs xc riding trails..

    I think its more about the type of riding "you" do and the bike you need to do it-- vs the trail. When i think of someone who is a xc rider-- they tend to ride on trails they can hammer on.. they are all about pace and top fitness and i have props for them for sure.. There thing isnt about jumping or big drops-- its about speed and pushing their personal best... Of course they can take there bikes and jump and do drops-- that isnt really what they are after..Speed is..

    When i think about someone who rides trail style riding.. They are the guys that are out to ride the trail and enjoy all the challenges it offers.. They arnt so much about personal best times or hammer till you puke-- they are about exploring different lines and seeing if they can "make" a section they couldnt before or a drop they passed last time and just enjoying all the trail as to offer to them..

    So as you can see there are 2 differnt mind sets on what they want out of a ride.. The xc guys are go go go go-- faster-- push.. And with that-- they probably arnt going to ride a 30lb 6" all mtn bike-- cause its going to hold back their times.. So they are fine with a 4" 22lb bike that might not have the ability to take the big hits but can go fast..Where as the trail guys dont care about time as much as they want a bike that can handle whatever they throw at it.. so a 30lb 6" all mtn(meant to be used on all aspects of the mtn) bike would work better for them.. No they wont be as fast but they dont care about that..

    As for the OP's question-- i think if you ride really steep-- techy trails and you need more gears-- then 2x10 would be better.. If your in a area that is more rolling and long great epic rides-- then 1x11 might be perfect.. YOu get less stuff to go wrong with 1x11 but you miss out on gear range.. Im in santa barbara and i would have a to give one one side of 1x11 gearing cause its steep.. To have enough gear to get up all i want to-- id lose out having enough gear for the flats(id spin out gettig home).. So for me-- 2x10 is where i am at.. Though im thinking about giving it up and who cares if i spin out on the way home-- its all about the trail-- right

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    I went from a 22T small ring to a 26T small ring when I went from 3x10 to 2x10. It was tough for all of 3-4 rides, and my legs adapted REALLY quickly, and I had spent most climbs in my lowest gear.

    Are you running X9 cranks right now? In a few weeks, WolfTooth will be coming out with a direct mount 22, 24, and 26T chainring. You could get whichever one is about halfway in between your current setup and the XX1 to see if your legs can cope. If not, you're only $80 out, and you'll probably just want to keep your 1x10 setup.
    I'm running a SRAM s-1250 crank now. I'll be switching to a SLX 24/38 this weekend.

    Maybe I'll give that 26T WT ring a shot when it comes out.

    So Cal has alot of varying terrain. I'm just tying to figure out if a single chain ring can cover all that terrain.

    I was at a local XC race today and I saw alot of XX1 equipped bikes.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Not in my experience. I have done many adventure and orienteering races, in the woods, at night, alone, and a map, compass and stopwatch are more than enough. Just know your pace, follow terrain. No batteries needed. For classical orienteering or rogaines - with good lidar based maps - paper map alone is much faster than any electronic doodad. Newer GPS receivers are more sensitive - few years ago they where not worth a damn in a wooded area. I am as geek as anybody, but I am often appalled how badly many supposedly outdoor enthusiasts can find their way around in the outdoors.

    We digressed.. but that always happens when people argue about what kind of riding is what..
    If I did that, with fluctuating magnetic fields in the mountains of AFG, I'd get people killed. A compass is subject to what is pulling at it, and I've seen it show "true north" up to 20 degrees off. A map shows a Grid-Magnetic angle, yes, but that doesn't help you if it changes multiple times along a particular route.

    Orienteering is all fine and dandy, but when you have to write a letter home to someone's mom and dad if your land nav goes awry, I'll choose GPS with compass backup, every time.
    Death from Below.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If I did that, with fluctuating magnetic fields in the mountains of AFG, I'd get people killed. A compass is subject to what is pulling at it, and I've seen it show "true north" up to 20 degrees off. A map shows a Grid-Magnetic angle, yes, but that doesn't help you if it changes multiple times along a particular route.

    Orienteering is all fine and dandy, but when you have to write a letter home to someone's mom and dad if your land nav goes awry, I'll choose GPS with compass backup, every time.
    ..further digression..

    I wonder how people survived without GPS. Discovered America and all. I guess all the members of our hiking and mountaineering club, when there was no GPS (illegal, until recently), are still out there, lost and all.

    It is relying on GPS and other gismos and getting out there without basic navigation skills and without paying attention to the surroundings for when the battery dies what gets people killed. It is a wonderful tool, but it is no substitute for basic map skills. Terrain, sun/stars, and compass is enough, including in the mountains and in inclement weather. Plan A should always be finding your way without any aid, plan B - using tools (...and carry satellite PLB for when you need the "oh shi.t" button for the plan C..) P.S. I do own and often carry GPS (and GPS enabled PLB)... I choose not to rely on it as a primary navigation aid. It is slow, distracting and not reliable.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I wonder how people survived without GPS. Discovered America and all. I guess all the members of our hiking and mountaineering club, when there was no GPS, are still out there, lost and all.

    It is relying on GPS and other gismos and getting out there without basic navigation skills and without paying attention to the surroundings for when the battery dies what gets people killed. It is a wonderful tool, but it is no substitute for basic map skills. Terrain, sun/stars, and compass is enough, including in the mountains and in inclement weather.
    Last time I checked, the pioneers of the American west didn't have to navigate around mine fields, known IED emplacement areas, suspected or known ambush locations and people with heavy machine guns, RPGs or anti-aircraft guns. I don't have the luxury of saying "yeah, we're headed the right way".

    Tell me this, if you were walking through a broad mountain valley at night, with 100% cloud cover, and you had to thread 30 people through an unmarked area 50m wide, that looked like everything else around there for miles around, starting at an EXACT location, and the only terrain features were 10km away, would you use a map and compass?

    For what you do, as a hobby, it might be enough. We do land navigation for a living. Nobody is trying to shoot you, blow you up, or slit your throat in the night. People don't need to know your exact position in order to NOT blow you up with friendly fire. Shooting an azimuth to a couple of mountains and doing a section/resection is good for broad brush stroking it, accurate to within a few hundred meters, etc. I've hiked through the Bob Marshall Wilderness solo several times. Same with Rocky Mountain NP. No trails, nobody to help me. Never turned a GPS on. Mountains, maps, compass and my brain. But there wasn't a minefield, no proverbial needles to thread a group of men through.
    Death from Below.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Last time I checked, the pioneers of the American west didn't have to navigate around mine fields, known IED emplacement areas, suspected or known ambush locations and people with heavy machine guns, RPGs or anti-aircraft guns. I don't have the luxury of saying "yeah, we're headed the right way".

    Tell me this, if you were walking through a broad mountain valley at night, with 100% cloud cover, and you had to thread 30 people through an unmarked area 50m wide, that looked like everything else around there for miles around, starting at an EXACT location, and the only terrain features were 10km away, would you use a map and compass?
    Nice strawman. Modern military warfare has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic of this discussion. It is silly to pretend it does. Yes, nobody is trying to bomb me and knowing my position up to the accuracy of the map I have is more than enough. Nobody would possibly try to jam my communications either.

    It is dangerous and stupid to get into backcountry and have nothing but a bit of electronics to guide you out - like many people do nowadays. You can get killed just as dead as in a warzone. Dead is dead.

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    My point is that even with excellent land navigation skills, you can be 50m from a trail that might lead to your rescue and survival and never know it.

    A GPS can help you get there.

    And, as I stated before, I'd never go out without a map and compass, and I do general navigation with a those over a GPS. But for pin-point, potentially life saving accuracy, that just won't cut it.
    Death from Below.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    My point is that even with excellent land navigation skills, you can be 50m from a trail that might lead to your rescue and survival and never know it.

    A GPS can help you get there.

    And, as I stated before, I'd never go out without a map and compass, and I do general navigation with a those over a GPS. But for pin-point, potentially life saving accuracy, that just won't cut it.
    My point was that I would rather navigate when recreating by looking around me as the primary means of finding my way and use GPS and SARSAT beacon as an emergency aid. I do carry both.

    But my main point was that it is unfortunate that so many people I meet do ignore basic navigation skills nowadays - even being outdoor enthusiasts. Some can not tell which way is north at a crossroads while looking at their own shadow..

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    Is XX1 better for racing vs trail riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    ..further digression..

    I wonder how people survived without GPS. Discovered America and all.
    Weren't they trying to get to India?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Weren't they trying to get to India?
    And they had been on a proper course to it. Just a bit of land was not yet on the map.

    Kinda like my wife's iPhone.

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    SB trails, I lived in SB for 30 years and loved riding the backcountry, some on the front also. Yes I remember some of the steeps, did the SantaCruz trail quite a lot even went beyond . The 1 epic ride we used to do was the cross-county ride from New Cuyama over and into upper Oso[about 55 miles ]. Back to subject I was considering going 1/11 for several reasons when I talked to a fellow rider who primarly races and he thought that the wide gaps in the 1/11 system might not be as good as 2/10. I still might do it.

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    I thought we were talking about xx1........not gps.

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    I have a 32T xx1 crank with a 11x36 10 speed cassette in the back. When I ride to the trails and back I spin out at around 23 or 24 mph.......so if you really need more than that on your ride to and from the trail then good for you. For me, I rarely get up to those speeds unless I am going downhill (which aren't ever very long) or have a big tailwind.

    Ride a single speed for a while and it will open up your mental limitations on what you can and can't climb with limited gearing.

  67. #67
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    I have a 2x10 setup now on my 2013 specialized, I want to get rid of the front derailleur and small gear to make it a 1x10 setup as i never use the smallest ring. the cassette is a 11-36 and the front ring is a 36. I was going to drop down to a 34, would i notice much of a difference with the 34 or should i go down 4 teeth to a 32?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooclosetosee View Post
    I thought we were talking about xx1........not gps.
    Or lycra or marketing terms...There must be some stuff about gears in here somewhere.

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    I like that XX1 allows you to simply swap front rings in 10 minutes or less to adjust for the terrain you'll be dealing with on any given day.

    Even more...........I like that 2 x 10 allows me to do this in less than a second by simply stabbing a lever on my handlebars!

    I suspect I would like the simplicity of XX1 for trail riding, but for racing, I'd miss the gears at one end or the other, and I do not like that big jump between the first and second cog. Still tempting, though.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    ..further digression..

    It is relying on GPS and other gismos and getting out there without basic navigation skills and without paying attention to the surroundings for when the battery dies what gets people killed. It is a wonderful tool, but it is no substitute for basic map skills.
    True that. Before I got into mountain biking a couple years ago, "cross country" meant backpacking or hiking off-trail. I use GPS and find it essential. But GPS is a supplement and enhancer to -- and not a substitute for -- basic map-reading and routefinding skills, without which you can be dead meat in the wild if the GPS breaks or runs out of batteries. More and more mountain rescues are for fit, healthy youngsters who don't know how or didn't bother to read a map and get lost when their iPhone dies or (shock) has no signal in the wild.

    On the topic, I think it doesn't matter whether you are racing XC or just riding around, whether you like XX1 depends on the importance of the weight savings and whether you will miss the lost gear range. I use both my granniest gear and my biggest gear often enough that I don't want XX1 and will stick with 2x10 XT. At least until I get strong enough to avoid the bottom two gears.

    The "XC/Trail" divide is more for marketing than anything else and is useful to an extent -- XC means lighter and faster, at least on non-gnarly trails, Trail means stronger and heavier. I say pick what works for you and who cares what label it carries. Example: My bike is a 29er hardtail Stumpjumper, which I ride everywhere including on very rough trails where I would be better off with a FS bike. Sometimes people at XC races look sideways at my Stan's Flow wheelset mounted to a lightweight bike, but I like the width and stiffness (that's what she said) of those wheels. And they do a doubletake at my dropper post, and especially at the Point One flat pedals that I put on when the trail is rocky or technical. Who cares? It works for me.

    Oh, and I highly recommend wearing lycra bibshorts on longer rides, when it is hot, and at all races. It only takes about 15 minutes of riding to get over the idea that they look funny. They are cooler (temperature), stay put, don't make rubbing noise during pedaling, and don't get caught on the seat. You won't think about them at all when riding, which means they are perfect.

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