View Poll Results: Would you buy a "DH" carbon 29er rim?

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  • YES - if a clincher

    28 39.44%
  • YES - if beadless

    12 16.90%
  • YES - depends on decided specs

    24 33.80%
  • NO

    7 9.86%
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  1. #1
    Missouri sucks...
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    Would you want a "DH" Light-Bicycle carbon rim?

    I messaged Nancy about it. I suggested:

    30mm rim wall height
    26mm internal width
    33mm external width

    Also suggested it be beefed up with a few extra carbon layers and shoot for a target weight of 450gr.

    Hookless or not? I'm leaning towards the hookless... They could be built a little bit thicker around the "hook" and therefore not be as prone to damage from hard hits.

    Project 1.2 Initial Review: Roval?s $1,200 hookless Control Carbon 29 wheelset
    Last edited by DFYFZX; 06-14-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #2
    Missouri sucks...
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    Nancy replied to my email and said they'd be glad to make up an ENVE AM like rim if the interest was there. She asked for the MTBR link to this poll but I'm not sending it to her until there's some more interest.

    Feel free to deliberate and suggest some dimensions you'd be interested in

  3. #3
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    What exactly is beadless? and why? Also, any chance they'd make molded nipple holes? And if they did , would the consensus be that they should be 32 spoke? ( assuming that only one mold would be made....)

  4. #4
    Missouri sucks...
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottay View Post
    What exactly is beadless? and why? Also, any chance they'd make molded nipple holes? And if they did , would the consensus be that they should be 32 spoke? ( assuming that only one mold would be made....)
    I added a link to my original post that explains the beadless/hookless a bit. I will ask her about molded spoke holes but I'm guessing it would up the price quite a bit.

  5. #5
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    Honestly, based on feedback from how guys are breaking the other rims I'd rather see them beef up the beads/walls of the AM rims. That said I'd probably run one of these for a rear on my next build.
    As for moulded spoke holes I'd be just as happy to see them integrate nipple washers (say the sapim ones intended for use with polyax nipples). That seems like an easier and cheaper solution.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, so unless they became a lot cheaper than the current design, there is no benefit to us if they became beadless.....and tubed tires wouldn't work.

  7. #7
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    Same spec in a 350g trail wheel for my 29er please .. oh and $140 too... Moon on a stick maybe!!!

  8. #8
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    I'd be in for the widest, strongest 29er rim they would make; I don't really care about the weight.

    I'm not sold on hookless. It seems more like corner-cutting or an attempt to make the rim cheaper than an actual advantage. It might not be a disadvantage either, in which case, great. I'll just pass for a while till someone else proves that out.

  9. #9
    Carbon & Ti rule
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    Yes I would be keen on a few sets of wide tuff Carbon rims.

  10. #10
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    450-500g-ish, clincher, designed to take a battering rather than be light (they'd be run with Dual ply tyres anyway, so lightweight goes out the window). I'd certainly look at those.

    Width, not so important, similar width to the All Mountain rim would be fine, it's the strength that's important.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    I'd be in for the widest, strongest 29er rim they would make; I don't really care about the weight.

    I'm not sold on hookless. It seems more like corner-cutting or an attempt to make the rim cheaper than an actual advantage. It might not be a disadvantage either, in which case, great. I'll just pass for a while till someone else proves that out.
    Agree on all points. I'd love a carbon 29er rim with 28+mm internal width and available in 36 spoke drilling as well for a really heavy duty and stiff rear wheel.

  12. #12
    Missouri sucks...
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    Those of you that voted "Depends on Specs", what are you guys thinking? Throw your opinion out there! Don't just stand in the corner

    A carbon replica of the MTX33 would be pretty sweet: MTX 33 | SUNRinglé

    Let's get to more brainstorming. Nancy stated it's most definitely a possibility but we, as a group, need to come up with some specs to forward on to her.

  13. #13
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    Vote for Hookless

    I don't see why hookless rims wouldn't work with tubed tires. Is the concern is that the tire would not be strong enough to withstand the pressure around the each bead and may therefore come off the rim? Unless the bead (typically kevlar) fails I can't see how this could possibly happen... And you have to know that Specialized tried enough different combinations before they went to market with their hookless carbon Rovals!

    To me the material that's in the hook could be moved to reinforce the walls of the rim and make them stronger for a given weight. As for dimensions, 25 - 26 mm internal width and a 31-33mm external width ought to work... I do wonder if tire manufacturers design their tires to accommodate rims this wide... At some point rims can become too wide for a given tire design!

    I don't think that going to moulded spoke holes (like the Enve rims) will work out... Too much complication... Someone has had smaller (spoke sized) holes put in their LB AM rims instead of the standard nipple-sized holes, but I have not heard feedback as to how that worked out for him, including if the holes need to be aligned to the spoke path or how easy it is to deal with issues like broken spokes. Certainly a jig could be worked up to make the angles match for a given spoke pattern, which would result in smaller holes and more carbon to support the internal nipple (but require wheel builders to align the rim to specific spokes, an added complication).

    The idea of spoke washers may be useful, but I don't see how Light Bicycle could integrate them into a layup without significant complications when it comes time to put in 32 or 36 spoke holes. It's probably best left to one's wheel builder to add them but guidance as to their necessity or the difference in allowable spoke tension (from LB testing) would be good to know...

    FYI, I had but managed to destroy a pair of LB rims in Moab last fall... In both cases I am certain that an aluminum rim would have faired far worse, possibly leaving me stranded. (Rear tire bead failed, causing a slow leak on UPS and the chunder had cracked the rim in 2 places before I notices the low tire pressure... Front failed after a casing it into the rim of a pot hole on Poison Spider Mesa.. Both were fully rideable with inner tubes.)

    S
    Santa Cruz Tallboy - lovin' the full squish 29'r!

  14. #14
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    Thanks for starting this. I voted yes, depends on specs.

    I don't need a DH rim, but I'd go for 29er hookless in any form. Not sure that I need wider than 23mm, just stronger rim walls, and hopefully cheaper.

    I'd also buy the fatbike option in 70 or 80 mm..

    I dont want to hijack a DH poll, but it seems like the more general question is
    "What should LB build? Select ALL that you would seriously consider buying.."
    The options would include DFYFZX's spec and a few other top contenders...

  15. #15
    AZ
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    Just improve the existing AM rim with molded spoke holes please, maybe some more advanced materials to add strength before launching into another line. Wider wouldn't be a bad thing, some road bike rims are as wide as these.

  16. #16
    Missouri sucks...
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    Just got this back from Nancy regarding molded spoke holes:

    "And for spoke holes molded in, we have considered it before. Currently, we still do not have any good ways for doing this.
    For molded spoke holes, the carbon fiber also has to be die-cut to make the holes. So, it also affect the strength. We think there is no much different for the strength.

    Molding in will help a little bit on the spoke holes, but no much. Like specialized rims, it is also after-drilling. They have done the testing, the strength is almost the same.

    Thanks,
    Nancy"

    I semi agree with her. ENVE is the only company doing molded spoke holes. They're also the most expensive rim on the market! Easton, Specialized, Reynolds, etc. have all done extensive testing, if not MORE than ENVE due to their massive R&D Departments, and none of them use molded spoke holes. I think for a budget carbon rim alternative, it's not necessary. If it jacked the price up over $200 a rim then I'm sure not nearly as many people would be interested. When you get close to $450 for a set(shipped) and then add hubs, spokes, nipples and build labor, you might as well buy a set of warranted Rovals or Reynolds for $1200ish, assuming you used high quality stuff for your build...

  17. #17
    AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post


    When you get close to $450 for a set(shipped) and then add hubs, spokes, nipples and build labor, you might as well buy a set of warranted Rovals or Reynolds for $1200ish, assuming you used high quality stuff for your build...


    Their not that far away now, might as well drop another hundred or two and do exactly as you suggest.

  18. #18
    Missouri sucks...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    I dont want to hijack a DH poll, but it seems like the more general question is
    "What should LB build? Select ALL that you would seriously consider buying.."
    The options would include DFYFZX's spec and a few other top contenders...
    Too late to the change the poll but Nancy does monitor these threads if she's sent the link. Once there's enough positive votes(50+) I plan to send her the link and then she can come up with a common denominator from everyone's suggestions. So it IS important that people chime in A bunch of "YES - Depending on Spec" votes doesn't help her come up with a desired design.

    Maybe instead of hookless, go to a very mild hook, like the Flow EX? A very slight, short hook should appease the naysayers but still make for a stronger rim and a wider contact patch.

    Thought/opinions on a Stan's style hook???

  19. #19
    Missouri sucks...
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    Yup! I've thought the same thing but I still, personally, like speccing my own stuff. Being forced into a proprietary design, fixed axle standards, etc. is a turn off to me. Some people are fine with off the shelf stuff. Those people probably aren't interested in this thread anyway

  20. #20
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    What benefits do I get from a hookless rim? Or are you just saying take the weight savings from removing the hook and use that weight to make stronger bead/sidewall area?

  21. #21
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    Would you want a "DH" Light-Bicycle carbon rim?

    Hookless rims are nothing new. Car wheels are hookless and there were hookless bike rims years and years ago. The new bead technology in the modern tires is what's making them feasible again. As mentioned in an earlier post, Specialized wouldn't roll out a million dollar plus production item if they hadn't tested it and made sure it would work.

    The benefits, to me, seem to be a thicker, vertical carbon lip that can take more of a beating vs a thinner, angled hook that will crumple at the sight of a rock. Take a look at the cutaway rim in the link I posted in my original post. MUCH thicker lip than a hooked version. Also, manufacturing processes are less intensive and theoretically cheaper. That being said, I don't know how much cheaper LB would go since they're pretty cheap as it is.

    All that being said regarding the hookless rims, I haven't actually asked Nancy if they can even do them that way. There might be more precise engineering thresholds that they can't/won't deal with. I am simply gauging interest by asking you guys but may be a moot point when I get down to asking for it.

  22. #22
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    From reading the other thread, I'd vote for just beefing up the sidewalls on the existing design. Inner width is plenty for low-pressure riding on the wider tires common these days. The rims themselves - the actual ring structure, that is - seem to hold up quite well. Only the sidewalls seem to crack fairly often.

    Me, being more of a weight-concerned commuter than a real weight weenie, I wouldn't mind something in the 430g'ish range that can take pretty almost of the usual everyday abuse (going just a little bit too fast over kerbs, hitting potholes now and then, some snakebites on gravel roads...)

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    Maybe instead of hookless, go to a very mild hook, like the Flow EX? A very slight, short hook should appease the naysayers but still make for a stronger rim and a wider contact patch.

    Thought/opinions on a Stan's style hook???

    Flows have been working fine for me, with and without tubes. My skepticism on beadless is partially because it's new, partly because of the reports you can't run tubes (which would turn some flats into walkouts, which is not even close to acceptable), and partly because I don't see what the benefit is supposed to even be.

  24. #24
    Nuts
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    I'm interested in a beadless wide 29er if the end results in a tougher rim sidewall. Also some Fat bike rims in 80-100mm wide would be sweeeeet!!
    And I love beer!!

  25. #25
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    I would for sure buy a pair

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