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  1. #1
    unrooted
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Went to the local bike shop tonight, they told me that derailer cables don't stretch and that tubeless isn't as good as tubed tires.

    I worked at a shop with a know it all owner and manager that talked down to customers and I hated it!

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    people suck...better get use to it.

  3. #3
    Missouri sucks...
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    There's a few bike shops in my area that only employ idiots. I had one employee tell my old Pivot Mach429 was garbage and I should sell it and get a Specialized Enduro. Yea... Specialized fanboys are as bad as door to door vacuum salesmen!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Went to the local bike shop tonight, they told me that derailer cables don't stretch and that tubeless isn't as good as tubed tires.

    I worked at a shop with a know it all owner and manager that talked down to customers and I hated it!
    Well, cables really don't stretch. The housing, and ferrules, can settle into the stop which makes you think the cable stretched. And, tubes have advantages as do tubeless. Neither is better overall IMO, just a horses for courses thing.

    Tim

  5. #5
    Bandit 29 FTW!!!
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    Confidence in you LBS is very important. If you think these guys are full of shiat then write them off and find another one.
    Let's make like a Bike and get the Huck outta here...

  6. #6
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    Some people don't like their long held beliefs challenged.

  7. #7
    unrooted
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    Some people enjoy having discussions about pros vs cons on a subject, instead of the hard line stance that bike shop employees take.

  8. #8
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    Some people don't like their long held beliefs challenged.
    Wow.... Ain't at the truth. ... And that's exactly it. People get stuck in their ways.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Went to the local bike shop tonight, they told me that derailer cables don't stretch and that tubeless isn't as good as tubed tires.
    Derailleur cables don't stretch and whether tubeless or tubed is better is a pretty rider-specific opinion.

    Problem solved!
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  10. #10
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    Define "cable"
    as the inner wire, or the complete assembly, housing, ferrules and all?

    Depends on person's definition of cable.

    But I agree, some shops are definitely better than others.
    Sometimes, it is a single person, but a lot of times it is the culture of the shop that defines it's personality and ultimately it's success.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Went to the local bike shop tonight, they told me that derailer cables don't stretch and that tubeless isn't as good as tubed tires.

    I worked at a shop with a know it all owner and manager that talked down to customers and I hated it!
    So would I ..... biking and sailing seem to attract know it alls.

  12. #12
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by Redball409 View Post
    Define "cable"
    as the inner wire, or the complete assembly, housing, ferrules and all?

    Depends on person's definition of cable.
    By this logic "stretching" could mean getting shorter, right? It would have to since any part of your "cable assembly" getting longer is not what's happening.

    lol
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    By this logic "stretching" could mean getting shorter, right? It would have to since any part of your "cable assembly" getting longer is not what's happening.

    lol
    Ah very true. I like it.

  14. #14
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    With the cables, it's easier to tell the customer that cables stretch, but as been said before, they don't really stretch, only the ferrules/housing settle, effecting shifting/braking.

    As for tubeless, it's a personal preference. I prefer tubeless over tubes, but tubes have their benefits as well.

  15. #15
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    I'm with him^ Though technically the stranding of the cable can reorient tighter with tension. Not a stretching of the metal per-se but a minor distortion of the overall unit in a subtle way that happens only once for the most part. It becomes more apparent with larger cables(I do a lot of 3/16" cables for my job), where they often have to be re tensioned after a couple weeks.

    Tubeless all the way
    '93 Giant Sedona ATX custom
    '93 Giant Sedona AtX aero-edition
    '73 Schwinn Suburban
    '95 Fuji Suncrest

  16. #16
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc View Post
    With the cables, it's easier to tell the customer that cables stretch.
    I think there's just a general misunderstanding. I don't think the housing compressing is any more difficult to say... could be me though.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersedona View Post
    I'm with him^ Though technically the stranding of the cable can reorient tighter with tension. Not a stretching of the metal per-se but a minor distortion of the overall unit in a subtle way that happens only once for the most part. It becomes more apparent with larger cables(I do a lot of 3/16" cables for my job), where they often have to be re tensioned after a couple weeks.

    Tubeless all the way
    Very good comment, but they do get longer when the strands are setting unless the manufacture does some pretensioning. On some 1/8" ss cable we use on boats it will gain a 1/2" on a 20' cable. The bike cable is pretty small so I would not expect much, but even 1/16" could cause problems plus the ferrule/housing settling.

  18. #18
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    I feel lucky. I found a shop, out of my town, that's small with only two guys working there. Always spot on advice from them. Treat me right on price. Amazing that they are busting at the seams with customers and service work. Doesn't matter if you are buying a $500 bike or $5,000 bike, same great service. Search for that kind of place and you'll be fine.

  19. #19
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    I feel lucky. I found a shop, out of my town, that's small with only two guys working there. Always spot on advice from them. Treat me right on price. Amazing that they are busting at the seams with customers and service work. Doesn't matter if you are buying a $500 bike or $5,000 bike, same great service. Search for that kind of place and you'll be fine.
    That's exactly how it should be. I can't tell you how many shops I stepped in who immediately went into "oh you gotta spend '$2000 for an entry level hardtail!! Everything else you will break!!' kinda scare tactics. I was in sales for way too long... I can smell a sales trickster a mile away. I have very little tolerance for folks like that.

    I value shops much more who will honestly tell me what is good, what isn't, what the new cool thing is that they are excited about (oh, you gotta check this out!), what is the best option for me, even if it means not making a sale on their end. If a shop treats me with honestly and respect, and doesn't treat me like a meal ticket, I'm there for life with all my purchases. I mean, I'm a big bike geek, and I love dealing with other bike geeks... folks who just love this stuff.

  20. #20
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    I lol'd when I read this... just after I realized the lbs my new rear tire on backwards. So I had to unseat it, clean it and remount it.

  21. #21
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    Shark jump in 3...2...1...

    Of course metal stretches...tiny, but definitely perceivable...ie) inner surface of a leaf spring vs the outer. Springs return to their wound shape because they didn't exceed (stretch beyond) their elastic limit. Cables are made of wound stranded steel. Therefore, when the thing is in tension, it will stretch, not only because of the steel, but also the winding...or as someone else who works w/ cables stated, the strands will "re-orient"...or squeeze tighter due to the wound strands...and the whole cable lengthens...as in stretching a spring.
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anom View Post
    I lol'd when I read this... just after I realized the lbs my new rear tire on backwards. So I had to unseat it, clean it and remount it.
    I've do that about 50% of the time, and I've done hundreds of tire changes. Kinda like reinstalling a crank set and forgetting to put the chain on first. Yep.

  23. #23
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Shark jump in 3...2...1...

    Of course metal stretches...tiny, but definitely perceivable...ie) inner surface of a leaf spring vs the outer. Springs return to their wound shape because they didn't exceed (stretch beyond) their elastic limit. Cables are made of wound stranded steel. Therefore, when the thing is in tension, it will stretch, not only because of the steel, but also the winding...or as someone else who works w/ cables stated, the strands will "re-orient"...or squeeze tighter due to the wound strands...and the whole cable lengthens...as in stretching a spring.
    Take your logic through to something useful; show how a bike cable will stretch enough under the loads it sees to necessitate derailleur adjustments, making it "perceivable" as you say, which is why bike shops talk about it at all.
    Don't waste too much time.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Went to the local bike shop tonight, they told me that derailer cables don't stretch and that tubeless isn't as good as tubed tires.

    I worked at a shop with a know it all owner and manager that talked down to customers and I hated it!
    I'm right there with you. I've lived in my home-town for 57 years and there are 5 bike shops located here. I drove 50 miles to get my road and mountain bikes. The guys in my home-town are worthless. Unfortunately I thought I found the perfect bike shop out of town only to be told I was "too heavy to ride tubeless" on the $3,000 mountain bike I bought from them. I'm 5'11" and weigh 185 lbs. Needless to say I won't be buying any more bikes from that shop. They are pretty stupid considering the fact that I've bought 6 mountain bikes and 1 road bike in the last 10 years. I'm in the market for a new carbon road bike. I can't believe how bad customer service is at bike stores. They are looking more and more like used car lots. You can't believe anything they tell you. I feel bad if there are any truly honest bike dealers out there. All I can say is, "Buyer beware!"

  25. #25
    Never trust a fart
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    I think when running down the list of what I call "New Bike Syndrome" many shops say "cable stretch" when running down the list of things that may need readjustment after the first 30 days or so of riding.

    For me, I usually say that the housing is settling, but people get it in their heads that steel cables stretch like nylon rope.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Take your logic through to something useful; show how a bike cable will stretch enough under the loads it sees to necessitate derailleur adjustments, making it "perceivable" as you say, which is why bike shops talk about it at all.
    Don't waste too much time.
    5 word:
    Wound cable under const tension.

    Let's just say a typ. rear mech cable is ~60" or 5 ft long. And let's say "repositioning" of the winding from the cable being in const tension results in a 0.1% (1/10 of 1%) cable "stretch"...not unreasonable. That's a 0.06" change in length, or 1.52mm. Now, just from eyeballing thing, that barrel adjuster resembles a M5...same size bolt that you'd use a 4mm Allen wrench on. In fine thread pitch, that 0.5mm/turn, or roughly 3 turn, and in rough pitch, about 2.5 turns.
    So Melty, do you think a rear mech can be 2.5 to 3 full turns at the barrel, and remain in adjustment; is that a simple enough break down for you?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    So would I ..... biking and sailing seem to attract know it alls.
    as well as : bowling, car racing , fantasy football, and any other sport competition you can think of.... including (not u) forum posters

  28. #28
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    i dropped by this bike shop to buy a tube and they didnt have one.

    burbank bike shop

    they told me 29ers were a fad hahahaha

  29. #29
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    5 word:
    Wound cable under const tension.

    Let's just say a typ. rear mech cable is ~60" or 5 ft long. And let's say "repositioning" of the winding from the cable being in const tension results in a 0.1% (1/10 of 1%) cable "stretch"...not unreasonable. That's a 0.06" change in length, or 1.52mm. Now, just from eyeballing thing, that barrel adjuster resembles a M5...same size bolt that you'd use a 4mm Allen wrench on. In fine thread pitch, that 0.5mm/turn, or roughly 3 turn, and in rough pitch, about 2.5 turns.
    So Melty, do you think a rear mech can be 2.5 to 3 full turns at the barrel, and remain in adjustment; is that a simple enough break down for you?
    I didn't mean assume a bunch of crap and apply "maths" to reinforce your preconceived conclusion. I meant show that the load a derailleur puts on a cable will cause it to deflect any perceivable amount.
    It may be a lot of things, but it ain't the steel cable.
    Can you document the initial/permanent stretch on 1.2mm 1x19 stainless cable?
    Have you ever really had to turn the barrel adjuster 3 full turns after "cable stretch" sets in? Is the obvious "no" not enough of a reality check for you, even though it includes the housing compression/bedding?
    In any case, I don't think you'll be convinced. Sorry to inject some reality... carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  30. #30
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    i like bike shops...honest ones anyways...
    roccowt.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I didn't mean assume a bunch of crap and apply "maths" to reinforce your preconceived conclusion. I meant show that the load a derailleur puts on a cable will cause it to deflect any perceivable amount.
    It may be a lot of things, but it ain't the steel cable.
    Can you document the initial/permanent stretch on 1.2mm 1x19 stainless cable?
    Have you ever really had to turn the barrel adjuster 3 full turns after "cable stretch" sets in? Is the obvious "no" not enough of a reality check for you, even though it includes the housing compression/bedding?
    In any case, I don't think you'll be convinced. Sorry to inject some reality... carry on.
    Please explain how the outer coating and nipples embedding farther over time makes the cable inside them any longer then? Cable does stretch, especially near the RD anchor point.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    Please explain how the outer coating and nipples embedding farther over time makes the cable inside them any longer then? Cable does stretch, especially near the RD anchor point.

    1) The housing doesn't have to make the cable longer to change the derailleur adjustment. Here's an experiment: remove your rear d cable from the derailleur making sure you can tell exactly where it was. Slide off the last piece of housing and cut an inch off of it. Put it all back together (clamp the cable in the exact same spot) and try to shift. It won't work because the housing is shorter, not because the cable got longer.
    2) Cables are under the same tension throughout the whole length. They don't stretch in one spot.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    1) The housing doesn't have to make the cable longer to change the derailleur adjustment. Here's an experiment: remove your rear d cable from the derailleur making sure you can tell exactly where it was. Slide off the last piece of housing and cut an inch off of it. Put it all back together (clamp the cable in the exact same spot) and try to shift.
    2) Cables are under the same tension throughout the whole length. They don't stretch in one spot.
    Ignoring what happens where cable contacts and repeatedly drags over bends in the housing, deforming due to forces entirely different on one "side" compared to the other, ignoring what happens when wound cable is pinched at the DR attachment, ignoring that cutting out an inch of housing and putting the whole thing back together exactly the same again may be slightly impossible........... Sounds like science to me

  34. #34
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Thank goodness they do not stretch otherwise we'd have much bigger problems with cable suspension bridges, elevators, etc.
    【ツ】 eDub 【ツ】

  35. #35
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    It has to do with moving a fixed length cable inside a tube. Add more tube and less cable sticks out of one end of the tube. Pull on the front end of the cable and less sticks out at the back of the tube. The tube is made up of the frame stops/shifter stop together with the housing and the ferrules. The frame stop-ferrule-housing interface can compress as the interfaces are put under pressure.. This makes the tube shorter and more cable sticks out of the end. Turning the barrel adjuster makes the tube longer again.

  36. #36
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    wow, this thread has gone way off track.

  37. #37
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    Back on track:
    local bike shop- me "I want fox shock rebuild kit"
    shop guy- "oh, we do that, I have the guy do mine"
    me-"I like to do it myself"
    shop guy-"I don't know you mechanical ability, but..."
    me-"no, you don't"
    me- I left

    They act like a bike is a 32valve engine transplanted on space shuttle. There is nothing an average person can not do, with internet help, and the right tools.
    That said, I had a heck of a time finding the 26mm socket.... not at most stores to be had, so wound up ordering it with Sears. Even Harbor freight didn't have a cheap one, lol

  38. #38
    29ers Forever
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    One LBS which sells Trek and Specialized claims that cruiser grips are better than tube grips for mountain, and that 26ers climb better than 29ers. The owner is a bit of a know it all and is definitely more of a road rider than a mountain rider.

  39. #39
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    Ignoring what happens where cable contacts and repeatedly drags over bends in the housing, deforming due to forces entirely different on one "side" compared to the other, ignoring what happens when wound cable is pinched at the DR attachment, ignoring that cutting out an inch of housing and putting the whole thing back together exactly the same again may be slightly impossible........... Sounds like science to me
    lol... what exactly is the effect on the adjustment over time of "what happens" at the clamp point?
    clearly you don't understand that shortening the housing without changing the cable length will change the derailleur adjustment. maybe start with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    Thank goodness they do not stretch otherwise we'd have much bigger problems with cable suspension bridges, elevators, etc.
    Nobody said cables don't stretch.
    If y'all want to cling white knuckled to this belief and ignore any and all reason to do it, I sure ain't going to try to stop you. I mean, of all the people who can tell me all the mechanisms by which "stuff happens" with the cable, can a single one demonstrate, even theoretically, how much a derailleur cable actually stretches under a 5 lb. load?
    Since the cable stretching is so obvious, maybe the more interesting question is: how do the housing and ferrules manage to stay exactly the same length?
    Sadly I'll bow out before that gets "analyzed" in this brain trust.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  41. #41
    unrooted
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    Maybe you and the local shop are right???

    Maybe you both are know-it-alls as well, incapable of having a conversation about the issue???

  42. #42
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    I've had up and down experiences at LBS. Don't be too negative about them, with all the wannabe elitists out there, they have to have a couple elitists in each store just to keep up. Know-it-alls are one thing, and can be handled easily.. It's the rude people that actually want to rip you off are 100x worse. They are usually idiots at their first sales jobs that don't realize that 80% of the people they think they are fooling have more sales experience than they do.

  43. #43
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    You think the LBS is bad, try going to a firearms dealer. They "know" everything.

  44. #44
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    Know-it-all bike shops

    I'm going to have to agree with Meltingfeather on this one. Cables do indeed stretch! I've seen this first hand on a larger scale, but physics apply to smaller cables as well... lol.

    How much tension is a shifter cable under during a shift? Anyone know?

    Jake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakerz View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with Meltingfeather on this one. Cables do indeed stretch! I've seen this first hand on a larger scale, but physics apply to smaller cables as well... lol.

    How much tension is a shifter cable under during a shift? Anyone know?

    Jake
    I don't know the exact amount bit it is not enough to plastically deform steel or stainless steel. If it was cables would fail on a regular basis due to it.

  46. #46
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    Cables don't stretch. It's the gravity pull of the moon combined with low barometric pressure and global cooling that causes all your shifting problems.

  47. #47
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    Meltingfeather = MTBR knowitall

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewJL View Post
    I don't know the exact amount bit it is not enough to plastically deform steel or stainless steel. If it was cables would fail on a regular basis due to it.
    I don't really agree with this but ok. lol... You can watch the cable on a crane tighten and "stretch" as it lifts a load that is well under its maximum payload limit... but cables can't stretch without them breaking so the engineer that designed the crane knows nothing...

    Jake

  49. #49
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    Re: Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakerz View Post
    I don't really agree with this but ok. lol... You can watch the cable on a crane tighten and "stretch" as it lifts a load that is well under its maximum payload limit... but cables can't stretch without them breaking so the engineer that designed the crane knows nothing...

    Jake
    That would be elastic deformation, the stretch in the cable is temporary. Plastic deformation is permanent. Think of a regular peice of metal push a little it can spring back, push a lot it bends permanently and will be weaker.

  50. #50
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    Re: Know-it-all bike shops

    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    There's a few bike shops in my area that only employ idiots. I had one employee tell my old Pivot Mach429 was garbage and I should sell it and get a Specialized Enduro. Yea... Specialized fanboys are as bad as door to door vacuum salesmen!
    That's funny cuz my specialized shop has a vacuum store in it

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    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-01-2012, 08:03 PM
  3. WNC bike shops?
    By cardioverter in forum North & South Carolina
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-26-2011, 07:43 AM
  4. WNC bike shops?
    By cardioverter in forum North & South Carolina
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-20-2011, 09:40 AM
  5. Bike Shops
    By patirwin in forum Arizona
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-14-2011, 10:47 PM

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