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  1. #1
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    ENVE 29" XC UST rims.

    By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

    I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r2d1IydkBbb5ZJ9e8nAQHPb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAswUfwJI/AAAAAAAAbbU/rpYzB8pKaiw/s800/IMG_5596.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes—really, really nice.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sJH8G_m_JN69T7EnWX0AWvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAqp2JRsI/AAAAAAAAbbI/WVOCe1RQb_Y/s800/IMG_5606.jpg" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
    Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
    Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
    Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
    Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
    Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nIVxdaVws29JA-kxAVEPOfb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwebsite">< img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB-ja4CAI/AAAAAAAAbbo/7tsR0VGU9t0/s800/IMG_5567.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WzeF3opqtRYV9bW-DSVeKvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwebsite"><im g src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAqLFzaAI/AAAAAAAAbbE/F96Jl_270cM/s800/IMG_5590.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I’ll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Y07gfxEDI_XOZlI9GCVUzPb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB_eyqhhI/AAAAAAAAbbs/sB8R_RJ8pPc/s800/IMG_5555.jpg" height="800" width="536" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8slvjKIlVjy1xQVzWCbov_b6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNArZ8FHUI/AAAAAAAAbbM/c5b0VJhGs7I/s800/IMG_5600.jpg" height="800" width="536" /></a>

    On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to ‘pop out’ into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn’t happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily ‘fixed’ by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u2X_SbTLAxx7MfmfGOhb9vb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAsNq6u7I/AAAAAAAAbbQ/oP2sGxigO9A/s800/IMG_5612.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

    On the second go ‘round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on—not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cU2o1hXgL_UZfTHTiPzuXfb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB-IzO9MI/AAAAAAAAbbk/V-mgRjeSlKk/s800/IMG_5514.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    Also on the second go ‘round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IOUWv-k50dJhNL5MaXf2wvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwe bsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNApZPiAJI/AAAAAAAAbbA/jJhCOWYqhio/s800/IMG_5578.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my ‘bench test’ today.

    So there you have it.

    Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

    Cheers,

    MC

  2. #2
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    Great info! What were the builds and weights of each wheelset? Do you plan on trying a UST tire like the Python? And it sounds like with a 2nd layer of tape you would be confident in all the tires setting up tubeless except for the maxxis.
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  3. #3
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    that is interesting. My expierences have been seemingly the opposite.
    My WTB Nano's aired up easily on my Crests, then mid-race, my front rolled off slightly in a hard corner and then totally flatted. (pressure was about 28psi)
    My Schwalbe RR's needed a compressor to air up and seat, but I haven't had a single problem since.

  4. #4
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    really nice write-up, nice photos (as usual), and great info.
    i'm also surprised the TLR tires wouldn't air up when the schwalbes did.
    not surprised about the tubetype tires not airing up on UST rims easily. that's my experience too.
    love that sticker around the valve stem hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  5. #5
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    No such luck with one layer of Gorrila tap and maxxis ingnitor exo or aspens. I was a little disapointed but coming from the original edges the difference was not all that exciting. I had to throw my stans rubber strip on. And pop pop done. I do really want to try a TNT tire without the strip and see how easy they pop on but with my tire set up stans and strip I'm still well under any UST tire set up. I would love to see maxxis make all tires with a tubeless talon bead but that's wishful thinking.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4
    I would love to see maxxis make all tires with a tubeless talon bead but that's wishful thinking.
    X2... i think they're missing the boat on the tubeless ready front.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  7. #7
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    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    What were the builds and weights of each wheelset?
    All of the new/UST rims I've held and built thus far have been ~383g to 385g.

  9. #9
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    I think it has more to do with the UST spec of the rim, not so much the tires. We've had "issues" with UST spec 29"er rims, and the only tires that seat up with a satisfying "pop" on UST rims we've tried, (Mavic, Easton), are Geax's AKA and Saguaro.

    I'm not a big fan of the fit of UST rims with anything other than Geax tires at this point considering what is available for tires.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

    I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.

    For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes—really, really nice.

    Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
    Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
    Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
    Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
    Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
    Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless

    All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.

    I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I’ll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.

    On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to ‘pop out’ into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn’t happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily ‘fixed’ by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.

    So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

    On the second go ‘round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on—not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.

    Also on the second go ‘round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.

    No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my ‘bench test’ today.

    So there you have it.

    Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Sweet Mike! I wish I had the coin to spend on some of these hoops for my Tallboy. They'd make a superfast, superlight combo with my Maxxis Beavers to fly through out mud. When is it going to dry up around here?!
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  11. #11
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    This pertains to my interests...

    Edit...never mind, can't get over the sticker shock for the loss of 200 gms, superior stiffness and durability.
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  12. #12
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    my experience is also the opposite, tight fit are more secure because they do not release air by burping.

    I think the UST design with the bead hook is much safer than stan's, providing a better support with a lateral load toward the center.

    I have several hutchinson tires (python and toro), and the do get in place with a floor pump on shimano XT or mavic c29ssmax tires.

    Mike, i don't see the point of doing your test without using soapy water to lubricate the bead to help them get in place.

    Thanks fot the tip on the double turn of tape, i will try this on my notbues rims
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    I have the Easton XC EC90's, used Stans yellow tape once around and the Maxxis Ikons went on no issue. Popped right in and have been on for a month now at 22-25 psi with no burping.

  14. #14
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    My experience with Ikons was that I had to use a couple layers of electrical tape outside the tire to squish it in the center and hold down the bead. I then had to remove the valve core and hit with a compressor and it quickly took air and set the bead. This was on an MTX33 wheel with stans tape and valve.

  15. #15
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    Cool, thanks for the pics and write up. Your conclusions on the Maxxis tyres however also does not jive with my results on Stans Flows. I've aired An Ardent, 2 Ignitors and 2 Crossmarks very easily using a floor pump and soapy water as recommended, never had an issue with them coming off the rim while riding - BTW, non tubeless ready, normal sidewall versions. Will note I sliced the sidewall on a Crossmark very quickly and they came off and were replaced, Ignitors worked fine, sidewalls held up fine, even though they'd already been scuffed to death with tubes in them - did add glitter to the sealant as a precaution.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    Cool, thanks for the pics and write up. Your conclusions on the Maxxis tyres however also does not jive with my results on Stans Flows. I've aired An Ardent, 2 Ignitors and 2 Crossmarks very easily using a floor pump and soapy water as recommended, never had an issue with them coming off the rim while riding - BTW, non tubeless ready, normal sidewall versions. Will note I sliced the sidewall on a Crossmark very quickly and they came off and were replaced, Ignitors worked fine, sidewalls held up fine, even though they'd already been scuffed to death with tubes in them - did add glitter to the sealant as a precaution.
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
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  17. #17
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    Never used UST, don't know anything about the standard, hefted a friends early on when I started riding and was like WTF, these things are tanks and have stuck to Stans and thicker casing normal tyres or TLR. Most all tyres have gone on and off the Flows easy as pie, only one that took some good effort was the Bonti MudX and Michelin XC A/T and both those tyres hold air like nobody's business, rest actually I would say went on too damn easy. Maybe Enve should license the Stans bead lock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
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  18. #18
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    The ease of mounting and inflation is most directly related to the geometry of the drop channel, and has little influence on whether or not a tire will "burp" during use. For instance, if the center drop channel was made extremely wide and deep, any tire will mount extremely easy, but there will be so much space between the beads of the unseated tire and the rim that the tire will never inflate.

    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested. While Tubeless Ready tires (usually) have a UST spec bead, they do not share the same sidewall. A thin sidewall will not excert the same force against the inner wall of the drop channel during initial inflation. Instead, they'll sit "loose" inside, leaving gaps between the beads and the rim through which air will escape during attempts to inflate the tire.

    Bead retention (or the rim's ability to reduce the likelihood of "burping") is mostly influenced by the interference fit between the tire's bead and bead seat shelf of the rim. This includes the diameter of the bead shelf, the inside diameter of the bead, the elasticity of the bead, and the rubber coating on the bead. The geometry of the bead and the inner retaining lip of the rim also play some role.

    Mavic's UST spec calls out precise dimensions for the inner rim profile, including the drop channel. There's not much leeway given to play with, so I suspect this new Enve rim will perform much like any other UST rim in regards to tire mounting, inflation, and bead retention.
    Last edited by bholwell; 05-06-2011 at 06:37 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
    There is nothing in the UST specification that precludes the use of rim tape in the rim.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR
    Mike, i don't see the point of doing your test without using soapy water to lubricate the bead to help them get in place.
    I've never used soapy water to get my tires to seat up. And I use a floor pump.

    Maybe they were customer's wheels and he didnt want to get soapy residue on them.

  21. #21
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    Just had a set of these Enve 29XC UST wheels built up. My shop builder who is very experienced and respected, said they were one of the best rims he has ever built up from a even tension perspective.

    If you're going to double tape, why don't you just use the Stan's rubber rim strip?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    i think they tried to work something out, actually, and the folks at ENVE didn't see the geometry of stan's BST working well with their material. probably being as small as it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
    The ENVE UST rims have holes in the rim bed to install and access the nipples like almost any other rim. Tape is absolutely required.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
    When you apply the tape, are you putting it in the channel or leaving it flat? What width tape id you use? It seems one layer of yellow tape in the channel is so thin that it would not do enough to make any difference.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    The ease of mounting and inflation is most directly related to the geometry of the drop channel, and has little influence on whether or not a tire will "burp" during use. For instance, if the center drop channel was made extremely wide and deep, any tire will mount extremely easy, but there will be so much space between the beads of the unseated tire and the rim that the tire will never inflate.

    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested. While Tubeless Ready tires (usually) have a UST spec bead, they do not share the same sidewall. A thin sidewall will not excert the same force against the inner wall of the drop channel during initial inflation. Instead, they'll sit "loose" inside, leaving gaps between the beads and the rim through which air will escape during attempts to inflate the tire.

    Bead retention (or the rim's ability to reduce the likelihood of "burping") is mostly influenced by the interference fit between the tire's bead and bead seat shelf of the rim. This includes the diameter of the bead shelf, the inside diameter of the bead, the elasticity of the bead, and the rubber coating on the bead. The geometry of the bead and the inner retaining lip of the rim also play some role.

    Mavic's UST spec calls out precise dimensions for the inner rim profile, including the drop channel. There's not much leeway given to play with, so I suspect this new Enve rim will perform much like any other UST rim in regards to tire mounting, inflation, and bead retention.
    +1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    +1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
    Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
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  28. #28
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    I wish they could put the made in America sticker on every thing they make. Thanks for the feedback Mike. It's nice ot hear stuff like this from a reliable source.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    Enve talks about why they did UST here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Enve talks about why they did UST here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification
    "you have an enormous tire selection."
    i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
    I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
    i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
    I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

    All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
    All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

    The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

    The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

    Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
    UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    "you have an enormous tire selection."
    i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
    I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
    i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
    I think he meant in 26" and 29" tires as they have both size rims. The 29" XC was just the first model to be certified.

    As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire. I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
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  33. #33
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    Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
    To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle. -- Confucius
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire.
    I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
    Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
    Like this?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested.
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
    Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.

    Like this?
    The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.

    There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.

    And yes, Geax understands, but there is not an official UST-Ready label.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.
    with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.
    with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
    kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
    Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
    I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerCan
    Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
    Any tire works on a UST rim--with an inner tube.

    For tubeless, a "tubeless ready" tire will (should) work if it has a UST-type bead (not all do-Notubes, Kenda SCT, many are unclear). Need to dig into the manufacturer's specs to see what they say.

    Using standard tires without inner tubes is a crap shoot no matter what rims you have.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).

    with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
    kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
    Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
    I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
    If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

    For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.

    My point is not in which tires now use the UST logo, more that the many tubeless ready tires can not, despite being compatible. And that any configuration can be labeled "tubeless ready" whether it is UST compatible or not, or which tubeless method is recommended. I have talked to a few tire companies that will not do a TR tire at this time (UST bead/standard casing) as they are not confident of the reliability.

    The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?
    Sorry, you described the tire as a "Racing Ralph 2.4 tubeless". When reading the description, I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST. Had I thought about it, I would've known that since you were mounting them onto a 29er rim, that it couldn't be UST. My mistake.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
    The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
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  42. #42
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    IF it's a 2011 Schwable RR, then it's a TL tire:

    29 x 2.25 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 585 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $84.05


    29 x 2.25TL-Ready, SnakeSkin Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 640 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $88.25

    29 x 2.40 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 23-50 645 g 67 150 kg 19 $84.05
    OPEN Cycles One+ in stealthy black

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
    Nope. They just changed the rubber compound slightly and made the bead smooth rather than having ribs to seal more easily. Basically made it a Notubes design (which they also make).
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?
    Mike, do they have a PaceStar logo on them, and a small "Tubeless Ready" hot stamp? Those would be the latest version with a different bead. The older tires use a standard bead.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST.
    So if it says "Tubeless" on the side of the tire, that means it *isn't* tubeless?!

    Your logic is a bit over my head at the moment.

    I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Mike, do they have a PaceStar logo on them, and a small "Tubeless Ready" hot stamp? Those would be the latest version with a different bead. The older tires use a standard bead.
    Yes and yes.

    But nothing indicating UST.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Yes and yes.

    But nothing indicating UST.
    Because it is not UST.

    I just tried mounting a Nobby Nic TR 29" on a Duster. No-go with a floor pump. Not even close.
    Inflated and seated using a compressor.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

    All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
    All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

    The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

    The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

    Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
    UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
    Nobby Nic tubeless ready 29 on a Duster TLR. Would not take pressure at all with a floor pump (even used a Topeak Mountain). Inflated and seated with a compressor.

    Geax Aka TnT 29 on a Duster TLR. Noticeably tighter to mount than any other brand (including Bonty TLR tires), though much easier than the same tire on the Bonty Race Lite TLR rim. Instant inflation with a floor pump and totally seated @ 40 psi.

    Wish I had some other UST spec 29" rims to try.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?
    In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

    The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

    And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

    The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

    And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
    I am thinking of those people that may buy a Sun Charger "Tubeless" wheelset (Notubes design) and try to use Geax UST or TnT tires on them. Not going to happen (at least not easily).

    There is a guy on the Wheel/Tire board ranting about his Crow tubeless tires having pinholes and leaking sealant because tubeless tires should not leak and uses tubeless motorcycle and car tires as examples.
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  51. #51
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    Say what you will about the UST system, but at least there is no debate about which tires will air up easily and hold a bead well. If it has UST on the sidewall it's going to work. That's my biggest beef with the Stan's system or any of the ghetto setups. I don't want to have to guess which tires are going to work well and which aren't, I just want to air them up and ride. At this point I really don't care which direction tires and rims take, I just want there to be some sort of standard. I don't want to have to do research on what's compatible, nor do I want to have to worry about spontaneously losing a bead or being unable to seat a tire on a rim.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Say what you will about the UST system, but at least there is no debate about which tires will air up easily and hold a bead well. If it has UST on the sidewall it's going to work. That's my biggest beef with the Stan's system or any of the ghetto setups. I don't want to have to guess which tires are going to work well and which aren't, I just want to air them up and ride. At this point I really don't care which direction tires and rims take, I just want there to be some sort of standard. I don't want to have to do research on what's compatible, nor do I want to have to worry about spontaneously losing a bead or being unable to seat a tire on a rim.
    I think your sentiments mirror the majority of the riding public. Most people aren't aware of the differences between UST, regular, and tubeless-yet-not-UST rims. Then you have UST, tube type, and Tubeless Ready tires. And evidently not all Tubeless Ready tires have UST spec beads. This could mean bad things for Joe Consumer.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Nobby Nic tubeless ready 29 on a Duster TLR. Would not take pressure at all with a floor pump (even used a Topeak Mountain). Inflated and seated with a compressor.

    Geax Aka TnT 29 on a Duster TLR. Noticeably tighter to mount than any other brand (including Bonty TLR tires), though much easier than the same tire on the Bonty Race Lite TLR rim. Instant inflation with a floor pump and totally seated @ 40 psi.

    Wish I had some other UST spec 29" rims to try.
    Note: After ~4hours the Akas on the Bonty rims are still holding pressure. The one on the 819 (26") went flat in about an hour

    The Nobby Nic is flat after an hour. The Aka on the Duster is fine after the same time.

    None of the tires have sealant.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I think your sentiments mirror the majority of the riding public. Most people aren't aware of the differences between UST, regular, and tubeless-yet-not-UST rims. Then you have UST, tube type, and Tubeless Ready tires. And evidently not all Tubeless Ready tires have UST spec beads. This could mean bad things for Joe Consumer.
    Yeah, and considering that a bad combination of tires/rims could lead to serious failure and possibly injury, I don't think that's a good thing whatsoever.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Note: After ~4hours the Akas on the Bonty rims are still holding pressure. The one on the 819 (26") went flat in about an hour

    The Nobby Nic is flat after an hour. The Aka on the Duster is fine after the same time.

    None of the tires have sealant.
    I assume your rims are spotlessly clean when you conduct these tests? The slightest bit of junk in the beads = slow leaks.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Nobby Nic tubeless ready 29 on a Duster TLR. Would not take pressure at all with a floor pump (even used a Topeak Mountain). Inflated and seated with a compressor
    I'm surprised at that. I recently mounted a Nobby Nic TL Ready 2.35 and a 2.25, front and back on my Flows. The 2.25 was a bit tight getting on the rim but both aired up as easily as if there were tubes in the tires. I didn't even have to pump fast. They also seemed to hold air well. I waited over night before adding sealant.

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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I assume your rims are spotlessly clean when you conduct these tests? The slightest bit of junk in the beads = slow leaks.
    I did not even wipe the rims down. I wanted a real world/worst case test. Pulled off the old tires. Mounted the new. One of the Dusters had been sitting in the shop without a tire for 6 months. It has lost the least pressure.

    All of the beads are still seated well.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

    For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.
    i see your point. evidence in this thread. i'm a details guy, as you probably know, so didn't really consider that-- the answers are there (for the most part) if you want them.
    i'd love to see the non-UST tubeless standard proliferate.
    UST isn't really a "standard"... it is a proprietary system controlled by Mavic... just like any other proprietary technology.
    ETRTO is free for use, but Mavic has invested a lot in making UST and tubeless synonymous in the mind of the consumer, most of whom have never heard of ETRTO. WTB is the only company that mentions it.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    My point is not in which tires now use the UST logo, more that the many tubeless ready tires can not, despite being compatible. And that any configuration can be labeled "tubeless ready" whether it is UST compatible or not, or which tubeless method is recommended. I have talked to a few tire companies that will not do a TR tire at this time (UST bead/standard casing) as they are not confident of the reliability.
    conti & maxxis? if they're not willing to do their own R&D, it's being done by a few companies now, and you could say with a great measure of success. don't follow the logic there...
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT,
    already covered
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
    who?
    WTB says UST
    geax says UST
    spesh says UST
    schwalbe has told me ETRTO/UST, though don't see it on their website
    bontrager says "standard tubeless," they haven't paid the piper
    hutchinson doesn't specify, but as a developer of UST, i'd be surprised, even though i can no longer find a single mention of UST or a UST logo in their catalog or on their website.
    i don't know of anyone else producing "tubeless ready" tires that don't explain the main benefit: compatability with "standard" tubeless beads. seems silly not to.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I think your sentiments mirror the majority of the riding public. Most people aren't aware of the differences between UST, regular, and tubeless-yet-not-UST rims. Then you have UST, tube type, and Tubeless Ready tires. And evidently not all Tubeless Ready tires have UST spec beads. This could mean bad things for Joe Consumer.
    Many consumers have trouble knowing which width and diameter tires fit on their rims, or even inner tube size, let alone the nuances of the tubeless options.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    conti & maxxis? if they're not willing to do their own R&D, it's being done by a few companies now, and you could say with a great measure of success. don't follow the logic there...
    R&D expense? It's not even necessary. We already make tubeless ready tires for several companies.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    R&D expense? It's not even necessary. We already make tubeless ready tires for several companies.
    that was in reponse to shiggy's comment about being unconvinced of the reliability (and my pure speculation about the companies involved). y'all and conti are the only major, top-tier mfrs that i know of not doing tubeless ready.
    i'd love to see a 2.25-2.3 tubeless ready Ikon, btw. personally guarantee you'd sell at least two.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 05-06-2011 at 08:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r2d1IydkBbb5ZJ9e8nAQHPb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAswUfwJI/AAAAAAAAbbU/rpYzB8pKaiw/s800/IMG_5596.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>
    forgive my ignorance--- where are the nipples?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    i see your point. evidence in this thread. i'm a details guy, as you probably know, so didn't really consider that-- the answers are there (for the most part) if you want them.
    i'd love to see the non-UST tubeless standard proliferate.
    UST isn't really a "standard"... it is a proprietary system controlled by Mavic... just like any other proprietary technology.
    ETRTO is free for use, but Mavic has invested a lot in making UST and tubeless synonymous in the mind of the consumer, most of whom have never heard of ETRTO. WTB is the only company that mentions it.
    The non-UST "tubeless' methods have no standards. The spec for tires and rims is all over the place. The ISO/ETRTO standard for tube rims/tires has allowances for design variations that are still affective (when used with inner tubes). There are also rims out there that do not conform to ISO spec but use the HB/"american" inner profile that has no distinct bead seat shelf.

    UST has been approved for ISO (though I have not been able to obtain the spec through them), and for use with UST tubeless tires and use with standard tires with inner tubes. While Mavic does hold the patent on the UST method, as far as I can find, they do not charge for its use, only for certifying a tire/rim as compliant and for the use of the logo. This as close to an open tubeless standard for bicycle tires as exists.
    Downside: hard to obtain the spec, and no provision for tubeless ready casings.

    Notubes' rim is also patented, and must be licensed. Proprietary. Not an open spec.

    If you look at the bead shapes of the "tubeless standard" tires there is variation from brand to brand, but most are substantially different from a tube tire bead. It is the ones closest to a tube-type bead that I have the most trouble with on UST-spec rims and used without tubes.

    **
    Bonty calls TLR UST-compatible when asked. They also have a patent on the rimstrip and strip/tire interface.
    Schwalbe is unclear on what rim use their TR bead is designed for.
    WTB has full UST and TCS (TR) models.

    We are never going to see UST logos on tubeless ready tires as it now stands, but if a company says their TR tire uses the same bead as the UST I am OK with that--for now.

    I can see why Conti and Maxxis have not yet offered TR tires. The obsession with tubeless plus light weight leads to fragile tires. Just the lack of an inner tube does not make flat proof or less vulnerable to damage. And their UST tires are d##n good.
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  64. #64
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    anyone know what tire I could run tubeless on my new easton haven carbon29er wheels?

    I'd like to give tubeless a try but after this thread I wouldn't know what tire to buy.

    thx



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    Quote Originally Posted by minh
    forgive my ignorance--- where are the nipples?
    Inside the rim.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    anyone know what tire I could run tubeless on my new easton haven carbon29er wheels?

    I'd like to give tubeless a try but after this thread I wouldn't know what tire to buy.

    thx


    Bonty TLR, Geax TnT, Hutchinson Tubeless Ready, Specialized 2Bliss, Schwalbe TR

    Each have numerous models.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The non-UST "tubeless' methods have no standards.
    I disagree. Mavic went to the trouble to publish the UST spec for standardization by the ETRTO. Therefore the standard exists, and as I pointed out, most tubeless ready systems are explicitly based on this standard. As far as I can tell, obtaining the spec is a matter of purchasing it from the ETRTO. The UST spec is privately controlled by license agreemtn, and each agreement could be and probably is unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The spec for tires and rims is all over the place. The ISO/ETRTO standard for tube rims/tires has allowances for design variations that are still affective (when used with inner tubes).
    What about the ETRTO standard for tubeless tires? I think that's what's at issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    UST has been approved for ISO (though I have not been able to obtain the spec through them), and for use with UST tubeless tires and use with standard tires with inner tubes. While Mavic does hold the patent on the UST method, as far as I can find, they do not charge for its use, only for certifying a tire/rim as compliant and for the use of the logo. This as close to an open tubeless standard for bicycle tires as exists.
    The ETRTO standard, published by Mavic according to their own reports, is an "open" standard in that the use of it does not require a license agreement from a private company. The ETRTO standard is also not under Mavic's control. According to Mavic's alleged intent, that was the purpose of publishing the "standard."
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Downside: hard to obtain the spec, and no provision for tubeless ready casings.
    I have only gone so far as to see that the ETRTO specs are available for purchase. I have also pledged $20, which has been matched by at least one person, to collectively purchase a copy of the spec.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Notubes' rim is also patented, and must be licensed. Proprietary. Not an open spec.
    True. I said I'd like to see proliferation of the ETRTO standard, which is open and already being used without license. I am also happy to continue to use stan's system, which has been reliable for me in converting non-tubeless tires.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If you look at the bead shapes of the "tubeless standard" tires there is variation from brand to brand, but most are substantially different from a tube tire bead. It is the ones closest to a tube-type bead that I have the most trouble with on UST-spec rims and used without tubes.
    Not surprising.
    AFAIK there is no enforcement of the standard (people can label a rim with an ISO size even if it doesn't meet the spec), which means that even the tubetype ISO spec is only as good as manufacturers want it to be by conforming for compatability.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Schwalbe is unclear on what rim use their TR bead is designed for.
    when asked, Schwalbe told me, "Our ust-ready tires have a ETRTO (UST) bead. The ust-ready tires are designed to be used with sealant." The english in the e-mail is broken, but it is clear that by ust-ready the responder meant "TL Ready."
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    WTB has full UST and TCS (TR) models.
    As do all the other manufacturers I mentioned except for Bontrager. On the page that I linked to WTB also says explicitly that TCS has a UST bead.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    We are never going to see UST logos on tubeless ready tires as it now stands, but if a company says their TR tire uses the same bead as the UST I am OK with that--for now.
    Me too. I wish mfrs like Stan's and Kenda wouldn't muddy the waters by using the same terms to describe non-standardized products.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I can see why Conti and Maxxis have not yet offered TR tires. The obsession with tubeless plus light weight leads to fragile tires. Just the lack of an inner tube does not make flat proof or less vulnerable to damage. And their UST tires are d##n good.
    I can't say that I do. The advent of sealant makes the air-tight casing less critical, since many people run even UST tires with sealant. I also can't speak to experience riding UST tires, since I have ridden only 29ers since 2002 and am not willing to try Maxxis 830-885g offerings by mating them to non-UST rims to fix a problem I don't have. I am, however, in the process of procuring some TLR rims to replace my current ghetto set-up (which has been 100% reliable) and will be trying them with tubeless ready tires.
    Always great dialoguing with you on these issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    I disagree. Mavic went to the trouble to publish the UST spec for standardization by the ETRTO. Therefore the standard exists, and as I pointed out, most tubeless ready systems are explicitly based on this standard. As far as I can tell, obtaining the spec is a matter of purchasing it from the ETRTO. The UST spec is privately controlled by license agreemtn, and each agreement could be and probably is unique.

    What about the ETRTO standard for tubeless tires? I think that's what's at issue.

    The ETRTO standard, published by Mavic according to their own reports, is an "open" standard in that the use of it does not require a license agreement from a private company. The ETRTO standard is also not under Mavic's control. According to Mavic's alleged intent, that was the purpose of publishing the "standard."

    I have only gone so far as to see that the ETRTO specs are available for purchase. I have also pledged $20, which has been matched by at least one person, to collectively purchase a copy of the spec.

    True. I said I'd like to see proliferation of the ETRTO standard, which is open and already being used without license. I am also happy to continue to use stan's system, which has been reliable for me in converting non-tubeless tires.

    Not surprising.
    AFAIK there is no enforcement of the standard (people can label a rim with an ISO size even if it doesn't meet the spec), which means that even the tubetype ISO spec is only as good as manufacturers want it to be by conforming for compatability.

    when asked, Schwalbe told me, "Our ust-ready tires have a ETRTO (UST) bead. The ust-ready tires are designed to be used with sealant." The english in the e-mail is broken, but it is clear that by ust-ready the responder meant "TL Ready."

    As do all the other manufacturers I mentioned except for Bontrager. On the page that I linked to WTB also says explicitly that TCS has a UST bead.

    Me too. I wish mfrs like Stan's and Kenda wouldn't muddy the waters by using the same terms to describe non-standardized products.

    I can't say that I do. The advent of sealant makes the air-tight casing less critical, since many people run even UST tires with sealant. I also can't speak to experience riding UST tires, since I have ridden only 29ers since 2002 and am not willing to try Maxxis 830-885g offerings by mating them to non-UST rims to fix a problem I don't have. I am, however, in the process of procuring some TLR rims to replace my current ghetto set-up (which has been 100% reliable) and will be trying them with tubeless ready tires.
    Always great dialoguing with you on these issues.
    Mostly, we are in agreement.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    When you apply the tape, are you putting it in the channel or leaving it flat? What width tape id you use? It seems one layer of yellow tape in the channel is so thin that it would not do enough to make any difference.

    Just one layer pressed into the channel is all it took, used 21mm Stans yellow tape. I thought the same that it seemed crazy that it would make a difference, but it did and I learned about it from a thread started in the wheel forum.

    Tried for a day to air up without the tape and gave up and was going to sell the wheels. Did not want to use a UST tire, but the tape worked so well actually beaded better then my Stans wheels.

  70. #70
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    I just had to look these rims up for my new 29er built, expecting not to be able to afford them anyway. I read this -

    "If the mention of 100K..

    ..makes you think of riding and not how much money you want to make, then this rim is for you."

    That's brilliant. so - did you think riding, or money? )

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    Just one layer pressed into the channel is all it took, used 21mm Stans yellow tape. I thought the same that it seemed crazy that it would make a difference, but it did and I learned about it from a thread started in the wheel forum.

    Tried for a day to air up without the tape and gave up and was going to sell the wheels. Did not want to use a UST tire, but the tape worked so well actually beaded better then my Stans wheels.
    Thanks for this. My Easton's took long to seal up, but close to a dozen rides later and no issues. Next time, I'll use some stan's tape to see if it makes the process easier.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

    For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.
    That is the best, shortest summary of the entire tubeless topic I've seen yet!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  73. #73
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    I built a set of these up this weekend as well, and I'll second everything Mike has said. These are so lust worthy it's crazy. Even with ultralight spokes, the stiffness and balanced spoke tension is crazy. I want a set for myself, badly.
    I sell bikes here. Check out the Blog here. Facebook.

  74. #74
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    Not UST, but I needed the additional width of the AM rims, and the AM UST rims are not yet ready.





    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    Not UST, but I needed the additional width of the AM rims, and the AM UST rims are not yet ready.
    very nice, mr. holwell, bravo.
    CX Rays?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    very nice, mr. holwell, bravo.
    CX Rays?
    Yes, CX-Rays

    But all credit should go to the guys at ENVE; I didn't even lace these up. A big Thank you! to Jason.
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  77. #77
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    Don't forget, only spider type cassettes or that pretty alu freehub will look really nice in short order Other than that and the slow engagement I like the WTB hubs well enough - sure are light. Oh, almost forgot, nice wheels Not that I'm jealous or anything What weight did they come in at?
    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    Yes, CX-Rays

    But all credit should go to the guys at ENVE; I didn't even lace these up. A big Thank you! to Jason.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Don't forget, only spider type cassettes or that pretty alu freehub will look really nice in short order Other than that and the slow engagement I like the WTB hubs well enough - sure are light. Oh, almost forgot, nice wheels Not that I'm jealous or anything What weight did they come in at?
    Yeah, I plan on using a 10s XT cassette. And I'm used to 30 pt engagement hubs, so I don't think the 24 pts of the WTB hubs will bother me much. I believe I weighed them at 1740g.
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  79. #79
    bog
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    Very nice wheels Bryan I'm considering a set myself

    or possibly Easton Haven carbons. I love the width of the rims on my aluminum Havens.

    Ken
    Tallboy3 CC : Nomad3 CC: Highball2 CC : Stigmata2 CC

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    or possibly Easton Haven carbons. I love the width of the rims on my aluminum Havens.

    Ken
    Those look very nice. Have you had any issues with your rear hub or bearings?

    BTW, I've got my fork, too. 140mm RS Revelation.
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  81. #81
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    Not sure if they've changed anything in terms of the freehub since mine were built (circa 2006), cause although they will give you 24 clicks, when you actually get a click.engagement point you then have to move the pedal forward at least 10 degrees to get actual engagement. Now not sure what other hubs are like in this regard, but my Hope SS/Trials hubs are 48 POE and when I get a click/engagemrnt point it's there, max I the pedal might move forward is 1 degree before it engages and that's what I hate about those WTB/AC hubs, but they work fine on road wheels

    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    Yeah, I plan on using a 10s XT cassette. And I'm used to 30 pt engagement hubs, so I don't think the 24 pts of the WTB hubs will bother me much. I believe I weighed them at 1740g.
    Did you get on the list?
    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    BTW, I've got my fork, too. 140mm RS Revelation.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    Those look very nice. Have you had any issues with your rear hub or bearings?

    BTW, I've got my fork, too. 140mm RS Revelation.
    You'll have to let me know how that fork works out. It looks like a nice option.

    No problems with the Haven rear hub yet but I've been watching it like a hawk. I really don't mind modifying it with some sort of locking mechanism if I really have to. They wheels are stiff and the rims are wide so they really help the Tallboy track better through the rough stuff. We'll see how they stand up over time because I'd prefer a higher spoke count for longevity.

    I can't wait to give some carbon rim wheels a go! The Enve AM rims look great.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    Those look very nice. Have you had any issues with your rear hub or bearings?

    BTW, I've got my fork, too. 140mm RS Revelation.
    hey bholwell,

    just to let you know, i am running tubeless on the 1st gen edge rims, an am rim up front and xc rim rear. i am running them both tubeless with a 29-3 tlr front, captain 2-bliss rear.

    i used some stans sealant and insulated pipe wrap in the rim bed, no yellow tape. the wrap i used is called handicap wrap from a comany called calwestern. it was wide, about 50mm, so i just trimmed to width, wiped the inside of the rim with alcohol and installed the tape.

    i overlapped a bit at the valve stem area and used a stan's 44mm "road" valve (just push the valve thru the tape, no need to make a hole with a knife or scissors)). over 1000 miles on this set up and no burps or any other troubles....
    "forget kings...forget hadleys......they all have crap engagement. just run your bike fixed gear." - FoShizzle

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    I don't understand the reasoning behind not wanting to use a sealant. I have ripped a knob off of a racing ralph let it deflate and sit for 5 minuets and then re-inflated it and rode it with no problems. Could a UST tire do this? It seems to me that having the sealant is very worth while. Also I have run numerous different tires on my stans rims and never had an issue getting any to seat up beautifully. The one question I have is if the stans rim is necessary, it seems others run sealant on pretty much any rim/tire combo and have no issues. I am very interested in getting the ENVE am rims but have been reluctant due to the fact that I am not sure if they will run well tubeless. Is there any reason that I should be concerned about this. Thanks...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    i am running tubeless on the 1st gen edge rims, an am rim up front and xc rim rear. ... over 1000 miles on this set up and no burps or any other troubles....
    My experience with 1st gen AM rims tubeless with Ikons was disastrous. Getting them to mount up and seal was not the issue (though it took doing), the problem was burping and complete ripping of the tire off the rim during quite unchallenging rides. No way I'll ever do that again. Love the Ikon, love the rims. Tubes work great with that pair.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    I don't understand the reasoning behind not wanting to use a sealant. I have ripped a knob off of a racing ralph let it deflate and sit for 5 minuets and then re-inflated it and rode it with no problems. Could a UST tire do this? It seems to me that having the sealant is very worth while. Also I have run numerous different tires on my stans rims and never had an issue getting any to seat up beautifully. The one question I have is if the stans rim is necessary, it seems others run sealant on pretty much any rim/tire combo and have no issues. I am very interested in getting the ENVE am rims but have been reluctant due to the fact that I am not sure if they will run well tubeless. Is there any reason that I should be concerned about this. Thanks...
    Why use something you do not need? Especially something that creates an avoidable mess.

    UST tires can lose a knob and still be airtight as they usually have the extra rubber on the inside to seal the casing.

    If the tire is airtight without sealant, and thorns are not a problem, there is no good reason to use sealant. Even then, a full UST tire will, in most cases, seal around a thorn well enough to finish a ride.

    There is no reason to be concerned about tubeless with the UST Enve rims when used with UST/UST-spec tubeless ready tires (which I believe has been extensively discussed in this thread). Converted standard tires: a crap shoot no matter what rim you use.
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  87. #87
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    Although not carbon, my experience with Stans rims has shown that even the slightest ding in the rim will cause sudden deflation. No amount of goo can stop it. And the rate of deflation is extremely scary. The Stans rim has so little contact with the tire leaves very little margin for damage. Also, since the Stans rim has so little contact with the tire, the tires seem to be more prone to burping.

    A UST rim, or any other normal rim set up as tubeless will allow much greater rim damage before there's a problem (with goo).

    In my opinion, the Stans beadlock design is a failed concept. Just because it works for some, doesn't mean it was a good design (the Ford Pinto worked for some, too).
    May the air be filled with tires!

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200 View Post
    Although not carbon, my experience with Stans rims has shown that even the slightest ding in the rim will cause sudden deflation. No amount of goo can stop it. And the rate of deflation is extremely scary. The Stans rim has so little contact with the tire leaves very little margin for damage. Also, since the Stans rim has so little contact with the tire, the tires seem to be more prone to burping.

    A UST rim, or any other normal rim set up as tubeless will allow much greater rim damage before there's a problem (with goo).

    In my opinion, the Stans beadlock design is a failed concept. Just because it works for some, doesn't mean it was a good design (the Ford Pinto worked for some, too).
    I have 3-4 big dings in each my Duster TLR rims and they seal just fine with UST tires (and some TLR tires) with no sealant.
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  89. #89
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    I would love to see similar testing using the actual UST versions of some tires - e.g., you used the Ardent 2.4 when there's a 2.25 UST version of the tire that I think might air up and hold air just fine without a compressor or sealant.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    I would love to see similar testing using the actual UST versions of some tires - e.g., you used the Ardent 2.4 when there's a 2.25 UST version of the tire that I think might air up and hold air just fine without a compressor or sealant.
    Who and what are you replying to?
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Who and what are you replying to?
    The original poster - I see there's been lots of discussion from others since the first post about it, but since he actually had some built up rims and took the time and trouble to test and post about them, just figured I'd suggest testing tires that actually had the UST label on them too...

  92. #92
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    edge tubeless

    Kam... on your Edge tubeless set up- how did you seal the rim holes? Did you use Yellow Tape, Gorilla or electrical tape, Stan's or other rim strip, split tube "ghetto", or did the insulated pipe tape do the trick for the spoke holes?

    Thanks
    John

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    The original poster - I see there's been lots of discussion from others since the first post about it, but since he actually had some built up rims and took the time and trouble to test and post about them, just figured I'd suggest testing tires that actually had the UST label on them too...
    I sent Mike a pair of UST CrossMarks. Perhaps he'll post up how they mounted. I suspect it to be like any other UST tire/rim combo.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    hey bholwell,

    just to let you know, i am running tubeless on the 1st gen edge rims, an am rim up front and xc rim rear. i am running them both tubeless with a 29-3 tlr front, captain 2-bliss rear.

    i used some stans sealant and insulated pipe wrap in the rim bed, no yellow tape. the wrap i used is called handicap wrap from a comany called calwestern. it was wide, about 50mm, so i just trimmed to width, wiped the inside of the rim with alcohol and installed the tape.

    i overlapped a bit at the valve stem area and used a stan's 44mm "road" valve (just push the valve thru the tape, no need to make a hole with a knife or scissors)). over 1000 miles on this set up and no burps or any other troubles....
    Interesting. The ingenuity of mtb'ers never ceases to amaze me. Sounds like a better alternative to the "gorilla tape ghetto method". Do you remember the rubber rim strips Maxxis used to sell? If I choose to run tires with UST beads, I'll likely give these a try.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  95. #95
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    What bike are these bad boys gonna roll on, and which tires?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HVN View Post
    What bike are these bad boys gonna roll on...
    Hopefully a Banshee Prime


    Quote Originally Posted by 7HVN View Post
    ...and which tires?
    That, I'm not at liberty to say. Well, maybe an Ardent 2.25 rear.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    The original poster - I see there's been lots of discussion from others since the first post about it, but since he actually had some built up rims and took the time and trouble to test and post about them, just figured I'd suggest testing tires that actually had the UST label on them too...
    I took the time to test the tires that I actually had in my possession.

    I'll try to be more considerate and include your needs next time.

    MC

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I took the time to test the tires that I actually had in my possession.

    I'll try to be more considerate and include your needs next time.

    MC
    Well thanks for the info gathered and time spent posting it.

    Jeez, you make a suggestion/request for next time/in case the opportunity arises and folks get all huffy... F##kin' internet boards...

    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    I sent Mike a pair of UST CrossMarks. Perhaps he'll post up how they mounted. I suspect it to be like any other UST tire/rim combo.
    Yep, I plan to try some Crossmark USTs on a set of these myself, sans sealant, at the end of next month and will let folks know how they do.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I have 3-4 big dings in each my Duster TLR rims and they seal just fine with UST tires (and some TLR tires) with no sealant.
    Good for you.

    I had one ding in a Flow with a UST Maxxis Highroller and Stans sealant that resulted in sudden and rapid deflation. And it was only a mild impact (crossing a small rut) that caused it, too.

    Those same dings in a DT Swiss 5.1 are no problem - I also have some of those rims with some huge dings that didn't result in any pressure loss with the same tire.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200 View Post
    Good for you.

    I had one ding in a Flow with a UST Maxxis Highroller and Stans sealant that resulted in sudden and rapid deflation. And it was only a mild impact (crossing a small rut) that caused it, too.

    Those same dings in a DT Swiss 5.1 are no problem - I also have some of those rims with some huge dings that didn't result in any pressure loss with the same tire.
    No burps when the dings happened either. In most cases I do not even know when they happened. Nice to use rims and tires designed for the job.
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