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  1. #1
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    ENVE 29" XC UST rims.

    By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

    I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r2d1IydkBbb5ZJ9e8nAQHPb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAswUfwJI/AAAAAAAAbbU/rpYzB8pKaiw/s800/IMG_5596.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes—really, really nice.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sJH8G_m_JN69T7EnWX0AWvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAqp2JRsI/AAAAAAAAbbI/WVOCe1RQb_Y/s800/IMG_5606.jpg" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
    Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
    Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
    Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
    Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
    Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nIVxdaVws29JA-kxAVEPOfb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwebsite">< img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB-ja4CAI/AAAAAAAAbbo/7tsR0VGU9t0/s800/IMG_5567.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WzeF3opqtRYV9bW-DSVeKvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwebsite"><im g src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAqLFzaAI/AAAAAAAAbbE/F96Jl_270cM/s800/IMG_5590.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I’ll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Y07gfxEDI_XOZlI9GCVUzPb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB_eyqhhI/AAAAAAAAbbs/sB8R_RJ8pPc/s800/IMG_5555.jpg" height="800" width="536" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8slvjKIlVjy1xQVzWCbov_b6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNArZ8FHUI/AAAAAAAAbbM/c5b0VJhGs7I/s800/IMG_5600.jpg" height="800" width="536" /></a>

    On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to ‘pop out’ into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn’t happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily ‘fixed’ by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u2X_SbTLAxx7MfmfGOhb9vb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNAsNq6u7I/AAAAAAAAbbQ/oP2sGxigO9A/s800/IMG_5612.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

    On the second go ‘round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on—not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cU2o1hXgL_UZfTHTiPzuXfb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNB-IzO9MI/AAAAAAAAbbk/V-mgRjeSlKk/s800/IMG_5514.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    Also on the second go ‘round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IOUWv-k50dJhNL5MaXf2wvb6GqSiin8jKRhtz8iZInk?feat=embedwe bsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/TcNApZPiAJI/AAAAAAAAbbA/jJhCOWYqhio/s800/IMG_5578.JPG" height="538" width="800" /></a>

    No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my ‘bench test’ today.

    So there you have it.

    Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Handbuilt wheels: www.LaceMine29.com

  2. #2
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    Great info! What were the builds and weights of each wheelset? Do you plan on trying a UST tire like the Python? And it sounds like with a 2nd layer of tape you would be confident in all the tires setting up tubeless except for the maxxis.
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  3. #3
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    that is interesting. My expierences have been seemingly the opposite.
    My WTB Nano's aired up easily on my Crests, then mid-race, my front rolled off slightly in a hard corner and then totally flatted. (pressure was about 28psi)
    My Schwalbe RR's needed a compressor to air up and seat, but I haven't had a single problem since.

  4. #4
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    really nice write-up, nice photos (as usual), and great info.
    i'm also surprised the TLR tires wouldn't air up when the schwalbes did.
    not surprised about the tubetype tires not airing up on UST rims easily. that's my experience too.
    love that sticker around the valve stem hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  5. #5
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    No such luck with one layer of Gorrila tap and maxxis ingnitor exo or aspens. I was a little disapointed but coming from the original edges the difference was not all that exciting. I had to throw my stans rubber strip on. And pop pop done. I do really want to try a TNT tire without the strip and see how easy they pop on but with my tire set up stans and strip I'm still well under any UST tire set up. I would love to see maxxis make all tires with a tubeless talon bead but that's wishful thinking.
    High Ho Sultan, Lets GO

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4
    I would love to see maxxis make all tires with a tubeless talon bead but that's wishful thinking.
    X2... i think they're missing the boat on the tubeless ready front.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  7. #7
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    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    What were the builds and weights of each wheelset?
    All of the new/UST rims I've held and built thus far have been ~383g to 385g.
    Handbuilt wheels: www.LaceMine29.com

  9. #9
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    I think it has more to do with the UST spec of the rim, not so much the tires. We've had "issues" with UST spec 29"er rims, and the only tires that seat up with a satisfying "pop" on UST rims we've tried, (Mavic, Easton), are Geax's AKA and Saguaro.

    I'm not a big fan of the fit of UST rims with anything other than Geax tires at this point considering what is available for tires.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

    I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.

    For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes—really, really nice.

    Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
    Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
    Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
    Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
    Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
    Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
    Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless

    All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.

    I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I’ll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.

    On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to ‘pop out’ into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn’t happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily ‘fixed’ by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.

    So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

    On the second go ‘round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on—not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.

    Also on the second go ‘round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.

    No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my ‘bench test’ today.

    So there you have it.

    Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Sweet Mike! I wish I had the coin to spend on some of these hoops for my Tallboy. They'd make a superfast, superlight combo with my Maxxis Beavers to fly through out mud. When is it going to dry up around here?!
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  11. #11
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    This pertains to my interests...

    Edit...never mind, can't get over the sticker shock for the loss of 200 gms, superior stiffness and durability.
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  12. #12
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    my experience is also the opposite, tight fit are more secure because they do not release air by burping.

    I think the UST design with the bead hook is much safer than stan's, providing a better support with a lateral load toward the center.

    I have several hutchinson tires (python and toro), and the do get in place with a floor pump on shimano XT or mavic c29ssmax tires.

    Mike, i don't see the point of doing your test without using soapy water to lubricate the bead to help them get in place.

    Thanks fot the tip on the double turn of tape, i will try this on my notbues rims
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    I have the Easton XC EC90's, used Stans yellow tape once around and the Maxxis Ikons went on no issue. Popped right in and have been on for a month now at 22-25 psi with no burping.

  14. #14
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    My experience with Ikons was that I had to use a couple layers of electrical tape outside the tire to squish it in the center and hold down the bead. I then had to remove the valve core and hit with a compressor and it quickly took air and set the bead. This was on an MTX33 wheel with stans tape and valve.

  15. #15
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    Cool, thanks for the pics and write up. Your conclusions on the Maxxis tyres however also does not jive with my results on Stans Flows. I've aired An Ardent, 2 Ignitors and 2 Crossmarks very easily using a floor pump and soapy water as recommended, never had an issue with them coming off the rim while riding - BTW, non tubeless ready, normal sidewall versions. Will note I sliced the sidewall on a Crossmark very quickly and they came off and were replaced, Ignitors worked fine, sidewalls held up fine, even though they'd already been scuffed to death with tubes in them - did add glitter to the sealant as a precaution.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    Cool, thanks for the pics and write up. Your conclusions on the Maxxis tyres however also does not jive with my results on Stans Flows. I've aired An Ardent, 2 Ignitors and 2 Crossmarks very easily using a floor pump and soapy water as recommended, never had an issue with them coming off the rim while riding - BTW, non tubeless ready, normal sidewall versions. Will note I sliced the sidewall on a Crossmark very quickly and they came off and were replaced, Ignitors worked fine, sidewalls held up fine, even though they'd already been scuffed to death with tubes in them - did add glitter to the sealant as a precaution.
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
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  17. #17
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    Never used UST, don't know anything about the standard, hefted a friends early on when I started riding and was like WTF, these things are tanks and have stuck to Stans and thicker casing normal tyres or TLR. Most all tyres have gone on and off the Flows easy as pie, only one that took some good effort was the Bonti MudX and Michelin XC A/T and both those tyres hold air like nobody's business, rest actually I would say went on too damn easy. Maybe Enve should license the Stans bead lock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
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  18. #18
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    The ease of mounting and inflation is most directly related to the geometry of the drop channel, and has little influence on whether or not a tire will "burp" during use. For instance, if the center drop channel was made extremely wide and deep, any tire will mount extremely easy, but there will be so much space between the beads of the unseated tire and the rim that the tire will never inflate.

    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested. While Tubeless Ready tires (usually) have a UST spec bead, they do not share the same sidewall. A thin sidewall will not excert the same force against the inner wall of the drop channel during initial inflation. Instead, they'll sit "loose" inside, leaving gaps between the beads and the rim through which air will escape during attempts to inflate the tire.

    Bead retention (or the rim's ability to reduce the likelihood of "burping") is mostly influenced by the interference fit between the tire's bead and bead seat shelf of the rim. This includes the diameter of the bead shelf, the inside diameter of the bead, the elasticity of the bead, and the rubber coating on the bead. The geometry of the bead and the inner retaining lip of the rim also play some role.

    Mavic's UST spec calls out precise dimensions for the inner rim profile, including the drop channel. There's not much leeway given to play with, so I suspect this new Enve rim will perform much like any other UST rim in regards to tire mounting, inflation, and bead retention.
    Last edited by bholwell; 05-06-2011 at 06:37 AM.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
    There is nothing in the UST specification that precludes the use of rim tape in the rim.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR
    Mike, i don't see the point of doing your test without using soapy water to lubricate the bead to help them get in place.
    I've never used soapy water to get my tires to seat up. And I use a floor pump.

    Maybe they were customer's wheels and he didnt want to get soapy residue on them.

  21. #21
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    Just had a set of these Enve 29XC UST wheels built up. My shop builder who is very experienced and respected, said they were one of the best rims he has ever built up from a even tension perspective.

    If you're going to double tape, why don't you just use the Stan's rubber rim strip?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

    The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    i think they tried to work something out, actually, and the folks at ENVE didn't see the geometry of stan's BST working well with their material. probably being as small as it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
    The ENVE UST rims have holes in the rim bed to install and access the nipples like almost any other rim. Tape is absolutely required.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
    When you apply the tape, are you putting it in the channel or leaving it flat? What width tape id you use? It seems one layer of yellow tape in the channel is so thin that it would not do enough to make any difference.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    The ease of mounting and inflation is most directly related to the geometry of the drop channel, and has little influence on whether or not a tire will "burp" during use. For instance, if the center drop channel was made extremely wide and deep, any tire will mount extremely easy, but there will be so much space between the beads of the unseated tire and the rim that the tire will never inflate.

    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested. While Tubeless Ready tires (usually) have a UST spec bead, they do not share the same sidewall. A thin sidewall will not excert the same force against the inner wall of the drop channel during initial inflation. Instead, they'll sit "loose" inside, leaving gaps between the beads and the rim through which air will escape during attempts to inflate the tire.

    Bead retention (or the rim's ability to reduce the likelihood of "burping") is mostly influenced by the interference fit between the tire's bead and bead seat shelf of the rim. This includes the diameter of the bead shelf, the inside diameter of the bead, the elasticity of the bead, and the rubber coating on the bead. The geometry of the bead and the inner retaining lip of the rim also play some role.

    Mavic's UST spec calls out precise dimensions for the inner rim profile, including the drop channel. There's not much leeway given to play with, so I suspect this new Enve rim will perform much like any other UST rim in regards to tire mounting, inflation, and bead retention.
    +1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    +1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
    Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  28. #28
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    I wish they could put the made in America sticker on every thing they make. Thanks for the feedback Mike. It's nice ot hear stuff like this from a reliable source.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
    Enve talks about why they did UST here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Enve talks about why they did UST here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-certification
    "you have an enormous tire selection."
    i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
    I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
    i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
    I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

    All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
    All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

    The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

    The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

    Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
    UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    "you have an enormous tire selection."
    i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
    I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
    i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
    I think he meant in 26" and 29" tires as they have both size rims. The 29" XC was just the first model to be certified.

    As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire. I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
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  33. #33
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    Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
    To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle. -- Confucius
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire.
    I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
    Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
    Like this?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested.
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
    Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.

    Like this?
    The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.

    There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.

    And yes, Geax understands, but there is not an official UST-Ready label.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.
    with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.
    with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
    kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
    Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
    I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerCan
    Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
    Any tire works on a UST rim--with an inner tube.

    For tubeless, a "tubeless ready" tire will (should) work if it has a UST-type bead (not all do-Notubes, Kenda SCT, many are unclear). Need to dig into the manufacturer's specs to see what they say.

    Using standard tires without inner tubes is a crap shoot no matter what rims you have.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).

    with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
    kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
    Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
    I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
    If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

    For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.

    My point is not in which tires now use the UST logo, more that the many tubeless ready tires can not, despite being compatible. And that any configuration can be labeled "tubeless ready" whether it is UST compatible or not, or which tubeless method is recommended. I have talked to a few tire companies that will not do a TR tire at this time (UST bead/standard casing) as they are not confident of the reliability.

    The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?
    Sorry, you described the tire as a "Racing Ralph 2.4 tubeless". When reading the description, I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST. Had I thought about it, I would've known that since you were mounting them onto a 29er rim, that it couldn't be UST. My mistake.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
    The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
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  42. #42
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    IF it's a 2011 Schwable RR, then it's a TL tire:

    29 x 2.25 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 585 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $84.05


    29 x 2.25TL-Ready, SnakeSkin Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 640 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $88.25

    29 x 2.40 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 23-50 645 g 67 150 kg 19 $84.05
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
    C-DALE BB1

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
    Nope. They just changed the rubber compound slightly and made the bead smooth rather than having ribs to seal more easily. Basically made it a Notubes design (which they also make).
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Uhm, really?

    You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

    You sure?
    Mike, do they have a PaceStar logo on them, and a small "Tubeless Ready" hot stamp? Those would be the latest version with a different bead. The older tires use a standard bead.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST.
    So if it says "Tubeless" on the side of the tire, that means it *isn't* tubeless?!

    Your logic is a bit over my head at the moment.

    I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Mike, do they have a PaceStar logo on them, and a small "Tubeless Ready" hot stamp? Those would be the latest version with a different bead. The older tires use a standard bead.
    Yes and yes.

    But nothing indicating UST.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Yes and yes.

    But nothing indicating UST.
    Because it is not UST.

    I just tried mounting a Nobby Nic TR 29" on a Duster. No-go with a floor pump. Not even close.
    Inflated and seated using a compressor.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

    All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
    All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

    The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

    The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

    Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
    UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
    Nobby Nic tubeless ready 29 on a Duster TLR. Would not take pressure at all with a floor pump (even used a Topeak Mountain). Inflated and seated with a compressor.

    Geax Aka TnT 29 on a Duster TLR. Noticeably tighter to mount than any other brand (including Bonty TLR tires), though much easier than the same tire on the Bonty Race Lite TLR rim. Instant inflation with a floor pump and totally seated @ 40 psi.

    Wish I had some other UST spec 29" rims to try.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?
    In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

    The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

    And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

    The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

    And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
    I am thinking of those people that may buy a Sun Charger "Tubeless" wheelset (Notubes design) and try to use Geax UST or TnT tires on them. Not going to happen (at least not easily).

    There is a guy on the Wheel/Tire board ranting about his Crow tubeless tires having pinholes and leaking sealant because tubeless tires should not leak and uses tubeless motorcycle and car tires as examples.
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