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ENVE 29" XC UST rims.

40K views 200 replies 71 participants last post by  proshopers 
#1 ·
By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.


For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes-really, really nice.


Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless


All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.


I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I'll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.




On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to 'pop out' into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn't happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily 'fixed' by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.


So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

On the second go 'round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on-not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.


Also on the second go 'round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.


No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my 'bench test' today.

So there you have it.

Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

Cheers,

MC
 
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#19 ·
Guitar Ted said:
The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
There is nothing in the UST specification that precludes the use of rim tape in the rim.
 
#21 ·
Just had a set of these Enve 29XC UST wheels built up. My shop builder who is very experienced and respected, said they were one of the best rims he has ever built up from a even tension perspective.

If you're going to double tape, why don't you just use the Stan's rubber rim strip?
 
#22 ·
Guitar Ted said:
But Mike is using a UST spec rim, not a Stan's. That's my point. Stan's will fit tighter with most tires and require less fuss to set the beads.

The UST spec rims are not supposed to require rim tape either, no? These folks saying they are using rim tape/Stan's tape on UST rims is an indication to me that something isn't quite right here. YMMV
You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
 
#23 ·
1-bar said:
It seems that ENVE should have licensed Stan's bead socket technology instead of UST for better tubeless compatibility. I was really considering these and I don't suspect the new Easton XC EC90s will be any different from a tubeless perspective.
i think they tried to work something out, actually, and the folks at ENVE didn't see the geometry of stan's BST working well with their material. probably being as small as it.
 
#24 ·
Spinning Lizard said:
You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
The ENVE UST rims have holes in the rim bed to install and access the nipples like almost any other rim. Tape is absolutely required.
 
#25 ·
Spinning Lizard said:
You do not need to run the rim tape with the UST, but on certain tires you cannot get them to bead. The UST rim is designed for UST tires which are much heavier and do not lose shape when mounting. A regular tire on some UST rims will drop into the center channel and you cannot add enough air pressure to seat them. If you put a small layer of tape on the channel you can force the bead into the sidewall very easily because it cannot drop in.
When you apply the tape, are you putting it in the channel or leaving it flat? What width tape id you use? It seems one layer of yellow tape in the channel is so thin that it would not do enough to make any difference.
 
#26 ·
bholwell said:
The ease of mounting and inflation is most directly related to the geometry of the drop channel, and has little influence on whether or not a tire will "burp" during use. For instance, if the center drop channel was made extremely wide and deep, any tire will mount extremely easy, but there will be so much space between the beads of the unseated tire and the rim that the tire will never inflate.

I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested. While Tubeless Ready tires (usually) have a UST spec bead, they do not share the same sidewall. A thin sidewall will not excert the same force against the inner wall of the drop channel during initial inflation. Instead, they'll sit "loose" inside, leaving gaps between the beads and the rim through which air will escape during attempts to inflate the tire.

Bead retention (or the rim's ability to reduce the likelihood of "burping") is mostly influenced by the interference fit between the tire's bead and bead seat shelf of the rim. This includes the diameter of the bead shelf, the inside diameter of the bead, the elasticity of the bead, and the rubber coating on the bead. The geometry of the bead and the inner retaining lip of the rim also play some role.

Mavic's UST spec calls out precise dimensions for the inner rim profile, including the drop channel. There's not much leeway given to play with, so I suspect this new Enve rim will perform much like any other UST rim in regards to tire mounting, inflation, and bead retention.
+1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
 
#27 ·
kosmo said:
+1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
 
#29 ·
#30 ·
shiggy said:
"you have an enormous tire selection."
i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
 
#31 ·
bholwell said:
Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
 
#32 ·
meltingfeather said:
"you have an enormous tire selection."
i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
I think he meant in 26" and 29" tires as they have both size rims. The 29" XC was just the first model to be certified.

As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire. I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
 
#33 ·
Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
 
#34 ·
shiggy said:
As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire.
I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.
shiggy said:
I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
Like this?
 
#35 ·
bholwell said:
I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested.
Uhm, really?

You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

You sure?
 
#36 ·
meltingfeather said:
I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.

Like this?
The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.

There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.

And yes, Geax understands, but there is not an official UST-Ready label.
 
#37 ·
shiggy said:
The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.
with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).
shiggy said:
There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.
with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
 
#38 ·
BeerCan said:
Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
Any tire works on a UST rim--with an inner tube.

For tubeless, a "tubeless ready" tire will (should) work if it has a UST-type bead (not all do-Notubes, Kenda SCT, many are unclear). Need to dig into the manufacturer's specs to see what they say.

Using standard tires without inner tubes is a crap shoot no matter what rims you have.
 
#39 ·
meltingfeather said:
with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).

with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.

My point is not in which tires now use the UST logo, more that the many tubeless ready tires can not, despite being compatible. And that any configuration can be labeled "tubeless ready" whether it is UST compatible or not, or which tubeless method is recommended. I have talked to a few tire companies that will not do a TR tire at this time (UST bead/standard casing) as they are not confident of the reliability.

The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
 
#40 ·
mikesee said:
Uhm, really?

You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

You sure?
Sorry, you described the tire as a "Racing Ralph 2.4 tubeless". When reading the description, I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST. Had I thought about it, I would've known that since you were mounting them onto a 29er rim, that it couldn't be UST. My mistake.
 
#41 ·
shiggy said:
The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
 
#42 ·
IF it's a 2011 Schwable RR, then it's a TL tire:

29 x 2.25 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 585 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $84.05


29 x 2.25TL-Ready, SnakeSkin Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 640 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $88.25

29 x 2.40 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 23-50 645 g 67 150 kg 19 $84.05
 
#106 ·
Kenda...



So I hear you saying that Kenda tires do in fact mate well with Stan's rims?

By trial and error over the years, Kenda is the tire I've found works best with Stan's (at least of the brands that I've tried).

BTW, where can I find the different rim widths comparing Stans and Bonti? Thanks.
 
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