Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner

ENVE 29" XC UST rims.

40K views 200 replies 71 participants last post by  proshopers 
#1 ·
By now everyone knows that these rims are available. Widths, weights, pricing, etc... are all on the ENVE site.

I wanted to start a thread to share some info that is quite pertinent to the ENVE rims, but that you won't find on their site.


For starters, I built 4 of these wheels today. Most noticeable and most impressive: The tension balances are as good as can be gotten with human hands and eyes-really, really nice.


Next, I wanted to know how well these rims aired up tubeless. Essentially, I installed and attempted to inflate each of these tires using only a floor pump.
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
Maxxis Ikon 2.2 EXO
Bontrager FR-3 TLR Team
Bontrager 29-3 TLR Team
Bontrager 29-4 TLR Expert
Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Control
Schwalbe Racing Ralph 2.4 Tubeless


All of them went on easily without a tire lever. They all also came off easily without a lever.


I used no suds, no sealant, no voodoo--just the supplied tape and valve. My reasoning for doing it this way is simple: If a rim/tire combo needs a compressor in order to seal up tubeless, then it is very likely (almost a guarantee) that I'll be able to burp air out of it or completely peel it off the rim at some point. This experience was learned early on and has been reinforced over the last ~8 years. If I can inflate it with only a floor pump, the chance of burping or peeling drops drastically.




On the first go-round I was only able to get the Racing Ralph to inflate and seal up. Nothing else. That was kind of surprising. I noted that some of the tires were coming close to getting the beads to 'pop out' into the hooks, but with a floor pump it just wasn't happening. This is fairly common with many of the other tubeless-ready rim/tire combos on the market, and is easily 'fixed' by adding a second layer of tape to tighten up the tire fit. I do this on my own personal tubeless wheels as it also substantially decreases the chance of a tire burping or peeling off.


So I added a second layer of tape, spent a few minutes evenly mooshing it down into the rim cavity, then started again with the tires.

On the second go 'round, The Maxxis Ikon was tight going on-not so much that I needed a tire lever, but close. I needed a lever to get the Ikon back off. Everything else went on and off by hand.


Also on the second go 'round, neither of the Maxxis tires would inflate. Not even close. But *everything* else went right up to pressure and stayed there without audible leaks. Pretty sweet.


No doubt sealant will be needed to keep these tires inflated week after week, but that was beyond the scope of my 'bench test' today.

So there you have it.

Questions? Your own experiences? Feel free.

Cheers,

MC
 
See less See more
9
#27 ·
kosmo said:
+1. Beautifully stated. Personally, from a burping standpoint (and many others), I find it hard to beat the Bonty TLR rim/strip combo. Whenever I remove a tire from those, I have to wrestle with it gently a minute or two before it will release from the bead "hook". Gives me a nice, secure feeling while on the trail. Other rims just seem to release the tire bead as soon as the pressure is released (like in a flat).
Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
 
#29 ·
#30 ·
shiggy said:
"you have an enormous tire selection."
i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
 
#31 ·
bholwell said:
Thanks. And you're right- how much force it takes to "break the bead" (push the bead off of the bead shelf of the rim) when the tire has no air pressure is a good indicator of how "burp resistant" a particular rim / tire combo will be.
I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
 
#32 ·
meltingfeather said:
"you have an enormous tire selection."
i assume he means in tubeless ready (not UST) tires?
I'm interested to see what happens with stan's vs. UST vs. tubeless ready in the next few years.
i wonder why they didn't, like everyone else, build the rim to UST specs but not license the logo. there are, after all, four tires (including NOS no longer in production) to mate them with if you're looking for the logo?
I think he meant in 26" and 29" tires as they have both size rims. The 29" XC was just the first model to be certified.

As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire. I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
 
#33 ·
Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
 
#34 ·
shiggy said:
As long as the a TR tire has a UST type bead I tend to include it as a UST tire.
I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.
shiggy said:
I wish Hutchinson had continued with their plan to have a UST Tubeless Ready designation (UST when used with sealant).
Like this?
 
#35 ·
bholwell said:
I do not find it remarkable that only the Racing Ralph was able to be inflated using a floor pump- it was the only UST tire tested.
Uhm, really?

You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

You sure?
 
#36 ·
meltingfeather said:
I tend to agree, which is why I wonder at the value of hassling with the logo. Call them "tubeless ready" and say they are designed to work with "tubeless" tires, like everyone else. I just don't see much value in the UST certification anymore, and I think the value is diminishing every year.
Plus putting a UST logo on one of those rims would be tragic.

Like this?
The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.

There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.

And yes, Geax understands, but there is not an official UST-Ready label.
 
#37 ·
shiggy said:
The value is that you know the tire/rim is designed to a known spec.
with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).
shiggy said:
There are tires called tubeless ready, tubeless compatible or sealant compatible that have bead designs nowhere close to a UST type.
with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
 
#38 ·
BeerCan said:
Does a non ust or tubeless ready tire bead interface with a ust rim adequately? If I purchased ust rims would that limit my tire choices to ust only? That is provided I wanted to do it "right"?
Any tire works on a UST rim--with an inner tube.

For tubeless, a "tubeless ready" tire will (should) work if it has a UST-type bead (not all do-Notubes, Kenda SCT, many are unclear). Need to dig into the manufacturer's specs to see what they say.

Using standard tires without inner tubes is a crap shoot no matter what rims you have.
 
#39 ·
meltingfeather said:
with only four tires to mate to them (using UST as the basis).

with the exception of stan's stuff, which he will adamantly describe as "not UST," i don't know what you mean. example?
kenda's "sealant compatible" is exactly that - compatible with sealants, and described as such.
Bontrager, Geax, Hutchinson, Schwalbe, Specialized, WTB (and any others I may have forgotten) all describe their tubeless ready tires as using standard tubeless beads with lightweight casings. some that have licensed UST use "UST" to describe the beads.
I just don't see much confusion in the "tubeless ready" world with regard to bead compatability.
If you are willing to dig into the details, there is little confusion.

For the general consumer I see lots of confusion.

My point is not in which tires now use the UST logo, more that the many tubeless ready tires can not, despite being compatible. And that any configuration can be labeled "tubeless ready" whether it is UST compatible or not, or which tubeless method is recommended. I have talked to a few tire companies that will not do a TR tire at this time (UST bead/standard casing) as they are not confident of the reliability.

The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
 
#40 ·
mikesee said:
Uhm, really?

You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

You sure?
Sorry, you described the tire as a "Racing Ralph 2.4 tubeless". When reading the description, I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST. Had I thought about it, I would've known that since you were mounting them onto a 29er rim, that it couldn't be UST. My mistake.
 
#41 ·
shiggy said:
The non-UST type beads are Notubes and Kenda SCT, plus a few others that I have doubts about the bead but have not had a chance to work with yet.
The Kenda SCT tires do not use UST spec beads? I haven't yet seen one. Very suprising.
 
#42 ·
IF it's a 2011 Schwable RR, then it's a TL tire:

29 x 2.25 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 585 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $84.05


29 x 2.25TL-Ready, SnakeSkin Black-Skin PaceStar 26-54 640 g 67 145 kg 19, 19A $88.25

29 x 2.40 TL Ready Black-Skin PaceStar 23-50 645 g 67 150 kg 19 $84.05
 
#106 ·
Kenda...



So I hear you saying that Kenda tires do in fact mate well with Stan's rims?

By trial and error over the years, Kenda is the tire I've found works best with Stan's (at least of the brands that I've tried).

BTW, where can I find the different rim widths comparing Stans and Bonti? Thanks.
 
#44 ·
mikesee said:
Uhm, really?

You know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I don't see a UST designation on any of the RR's on the shelf here. Didn't see anything on the packaging, either. Looking at the beads, they sure don't appear to be UST.

You sure?
Mike, do they have a PaceStar logo on them, and a small "Tubeless Ready" hot stamp? Those would be the latest version with a different bead. The older tires use a standard bead.
 
#45 ·
bholwell said:
I thought you were saying the tire was tubeless, and the only tubeless tires are UST.
So if it says "Tubeless" on the side of the tire, that means it *isn't* tubeless?!

Your logic is a bit over my head at the moment.

I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?
 
#48 ·
shiggy said:
I just (as in 10 minutes ago) mounted brand new, just unfolded, Geax Aka TnT 26" tires on a Mavic 819 (UST) and a Bonty Duster TLR rim, and a new Aka TnT 29" om a Bonty Race Lite TLR . Dry, no sealant, no soapy water.

All mounted by hand, though the RL rim is a very difficult (more on that later).
All inflated with a floor pump. Just made sure the valve was inside the beads and started pumping. The 26" Bonty took a bit longer to seat. The Race Lite had some leaking around the valve, and there was never a 'POP". All seated easily at 40psi or lower.

The ease or difficulty of mounting tires is all about the depth and width of the center channel. Deeper gives more slack to get the tire bead over the rim edge. Wider provides room for both beads to be in the channel at the same time, especially important as tubeless tire beads are also wider than standard beads. The narrow channel width is why the Race Lite rim is such a PITA to mount tires. It is barely wider than one UST type tire bead.

The shape of the sides of the channel guide the tire beads onto the beadseat and help hold enough air pressure to push the tire outward. Too steep and the tire can not slide. Too shallow and it can not hold pressure.

Once the tire bead is seated, the center channel has ZERO affect on how secure the bead is. The tire must come off the beadseat to reach the channel.
UST/TLR tires and rims are designed to keep the beads in place and do it without over stressing the tire bead.
Nobby Nic tubeless ready 29 on a Duster TLR. Would not take pressure at all with a floor pump (even used a Topeak Mountain). Inflated and seated with a compressor.

Geax Aka TnT 29 on a Duster TLR. Noticeably tighter to mount than any other brand (including Bonty TLR tires), though much easier than the same tire on the Bonty Race Lite TLR rim. Instant inflation with a floor pump and totally seated @ 40 psi.

Wish I had some other UST spec 29" rims to try.
 
#49 ·
mikesee said:
I understand the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. You're saying that the latter is emphatically not a tubeless tire, no ifs ands or buts?
In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
 
#50 ·
bholwell said:
In my opinion, yes. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but tubeless ready tires are not tubeless by themselves when mounted on a tubeless rim. They need a third component, obviously, to make them tubeless.

The new Schwalbe tire hotpatch doesn't say "Tubeless", it says "Tubeless Ready". IMO, one shouldn't call a tubeless ready tire "tubeless" since that implies the tire is capable of being run without an inner tube and nothing else.

And in light of the Kenda SCT, I am in complete agreement with Shiggy about the standardization of "tubeless ready" tires. I imagine the general public will be confused over the compatibility between many of the tire and rim choices that are currently and soon to be available.
I am thinking of those people that may buy a Sun Charger "Tubeless" wheelset (Notubes design) and try to use Geax UST or TnT tires on them. Not going to happen (at least not easily).

There is a guy on the Wheel/Tire board ranting about his Crow tubeless tires having pinholes and leaking sealant because tubeless tires should not leak and uses tubeless motorcycle and car tires as examples.
 
#51 ·
Say what you will about the UST system, but at least there is no debate about which tires will air up easily and hold a bead well. If it has UST on the sidewall it's going to work. That's my biggest beef with the Stan's system or any of the ghetto setups. I don't want to have to guess which tires are going to work well and which aren't, I just want to air them up and ride. At this point I really don't care which direction tires and rims take, I just want there to be some sort of standard. I don't want to have to do research on what's compatible, nor do I want to have to worry about spontaneously losing a bead or being unable to seat a tire on a rim.
 
#186 ·
Took the words out of my mouth.

I'm seriously considering just sticking with tubes. I want to ride, and am tired of the endless research I've been doing, to make sure that my wheel build goes smoothly. If I thought the Duster would hold up to PNW riding, for a 220 pound rider, I'd be done for now. They're light enough to run with tubes without a weight disadvantage to rims like Flow, i23, etc, yet can also run UST if you choose. I'm just not clear on their strength, and can't get any answers thus far, likely, because far less people have used them. The Mavic UST rims are either too narrow, or too heavy. Tubeless Ready with Stan's is a no-go with me. There is no way my woman is putting up with sealant sprayed all over the apartment, if one of these ties blows off the rim. Plus, I don't trust it. Full UST would be excellent, but as mentioned above, rims are either flexy, narrow or heavy.

I think I'm gonna go with the i23 rims and run tubes. The Flows would work, but there's too much confusion about their compatibility with Tubeless Ready tires, with or without tubes. Whatever's going on with the bead set, I don't want unsafe rims under me, whatsoever. I say all of that, and yet so many people love the Flows, even at my weight. Imagine how confusing that is! Reputable members of MTBR don't trust the rim, and reputable wheel builders love the rim and recommend it. Say what?? Not that I deserve some kind of general consensus on any of this stuff, but it would be nice to have a consensus that can be trusted to work and be safe at the same time.

I'll see what i can find out in the next few days, but then I'm done with all of this. Hopefully, I can get tire pressure low enough with tubes at my weight, to still be a good and comfy ride on the trails. I don't wanna give up on tubeless, but it is confusing as ****! Pardon my rant....it's been a long past few weeks, and trying to figure out this wheel build amidst a death in the family, grad school complexities and other madness, just makes me wish that the bike stuff was less difficult to figure out. No one's fault or anything....I'm just frustrated.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top