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  1. #1
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I'd rather have them build a set of tubulars, like the DT Swiss 950T rims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'd rather have them build a set of tubulars, like the DT Swiss 950T rims.
    Same, I would buy China carbon tubular 29er wheels in an instant.

  4. #4
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    I'm going to buy a set of wheels from then in the next few months as I'm building a new bike up. I was looking at the all mountain wheel they have but may go the beadless rims. Just have to wait and see what other people say about them.

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    I'd like to see a wider inner rim dimension like 26mm or more. I would buy some rims right away if that happened.

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    Thanks all! I'll share this with them. I would also jump on a wider inner rim dimension..

    I thought there'd be a little more interest in some knock offs of the new Roval Control 29's.. but maybe the tech is a little unproven...? Hard to wade through the hype, but a rim without a bead hook makes sense to me...

    I'll post back if they let me order a set of custom hookless rims...

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    O.K I'll ask not what's a bead hook (but I wouldn't mind a pic) but why no bead hook? Should I assume you are riding tubeless?

    Thanks,

    Hank

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    Sorry, yes a bead hook is the inner "lip" common on mountain bike rims. It matches the tire bead, which is the thicker ring on the inner circumference of the tire.

    The new specialized roval carbon rims do away with the bead hook. This allows them to have a thicker rim wall, strengthening a part of the rim that is prone to failure, and to use simpler manufacturing methods, driving down costs.

    I'd like to try out the technology, but not at specialized's price point.. This thread is meant to find out if there is demand for lightbicycle to produce a hookless version of their carbon rims... Hope that helps!

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    I agree the spesh wheels pricing is over the top. Don't think I could actually enjoy putting them through what mtb wheels go through. I have read a few articles about them and find the idea compelling. I would like the opportunity to try a light bicycle version.
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought that the LB rims were hookless, that the use of Bonty rim strips is what facilitated them running tubeless.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.
    I wonder if Specialized filed a patent on it, even though this is the way all rims were made up up to about 40 years ago?

  12. #12
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    It wouldn't matter if Specialized held a patent on the rims as it won't affect a Chinese company. The Chinese carbon dual suspension frames all have the fsr rear end.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by ijd View Post
    It wouldn't matter if Specialized held a patent on the rims as it won't affect a Chinese company. The Chinese carbon dual suspension frames all have the fsr rear end.
    There are worldwide patents, and US patents. If Spec obtained a worldwide patent it would apply to a Chinese company. If it was just a US patent it would apply for rims sold in/to the US no matter where they were made.
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Thanks for the explanation jrat and forum members. I've been dealing with going tubeless on both my wife's and my bike. Have not gone CF on our MTBs because they are both entry level Specialized bikes so no CF wheels. I purchased a Shimano WH-MT65F UST 26" wheelset for her for well under $200. They are just beautiful straight-pull spoke wheels. I tried mounting a pair of Continental Trail King 2.2 tires I got from performance with Stan's Sealant. One tire holds air beautifully the other required a tube. I believe she should buy a pair of Captain Control 2-Bliss tires. Even though I've heard that UST tires are "much heavier" I'm not sure that UST rims and 2-Bliss tires aren't "good enough". What do you guys think ?

    Tomorrow my Stan's Arch Ex 29er wheelset with XT hubs should arrive. I'm planning to attempt the installation myself. I picked up a small 120 volt tire inflator from Home Depot and hope it'll be enough to jump-start 29er tire installation that I've heard can be tricky. The Stan's wheelset is around 1600g. I'm not sure what my stock Alex wheels weigh yet. I'll be eliminating tubes and tire liners so I'm betting that's around 2lbs of rotational mass I'll be loosing plus whatever the difference between the Alex build and the Stan's wheelbuild is. So maybe I'm guessing I'll save 2.5-3.0 lbs or so.

    I know this thread is dedicated to "beadless" carbon rims, and correct me if I'm wrong but both the Shimano WH-MT65F and the Arch Ex wheels are aluminum with "bead hooks"

    I look forward to the day I build a China CF Full Suspension MTB I'm not there yet but alwys love to hear what you guys are up to and always appreciate the good advice I get.

    Thanks,

    Hank

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    Good luck! After you get the hang of it, mounting tubeless is not usually a problem.. For the past few years, I've mounted Stans and Stan's conversion-kit wheels with a floor pump. Haven't needed a compressor.

    Being able to take the valve core out helps you get enough air in there to mount them. And yes, all of the rims you mentioned have bead hooks. Not a big deal either way...

    Since I've been looking hard at my first set of carbon rims, I was just wondering whether to wait for light-bicycle to start producing hookless... Now that I've checked out the cheap carbon wheels wheels thread again, I don't really have too many concerns about the strength of their AM rims. And frankly, I realized how long it it will take for them to whip up a new mold and start production...

    @pimpbot shiggy and ijd... Wondering the same thing myself- i doubt spesh could patent it, but i wouldn't put it past them. The folks at LB said "Our engineers have known about this process for more than for a year and we have produced a set. If it becomes popular, we will switch all our rims over." Doesn't sound like they are too concerned..

    We'll see what comes out next year.. but if $1700 wheels can drop to $1200, then $165 rims could drop to $115... which is less than two tires.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Good luck! After you get the hang of it, mounting tubeless is not usually a problem.. For the past few years, I've mounted Stans and Stan's conversion-kit wheels with a floor pump. Haven't needed a compressor.

    Being able to take the valve core out helps you get enough air in there to mount them. And yes, all of the rims you mentioned have bead hooks. Not a big deal either way...

    Since I've been looking hard at my first set of carbon rims, I was just wondering whether to wait for light-bicycle to start producing hookless... Now that I've checked out the cheap carbon wheels wheels thread again, I don't really have too many concerns about the strength of their AM rims. And frankly, I realized how long it it will take for them to whip up a new mold and start production...

    @pimpbot shiggy and ijd... Wondering the same thing myself- i doubt spesh could patent it, but i wouldn't put it past them. The folks at LB said "Our engineers have known about this process for more than for a year and we have produced a set. If it becomes popular, we will switch all our rims over." Doesn't sound like they are too concerned..

    We'll see what comes out next year.. but if $1700 wheels can drop to $1200, then $165 rims could drop to $115... which is less than two tires.



    I wouldn't expect to see LB lower prices considering the backlog they seem to be operating on.

  17. #17
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    I wouldn't expect to see LB lower prices considering the backlog they seem to be operating on.
    They have already gone up at least twice and probably will more. Supply and demand.

    The current rims do have bead hooks. They lack bead lock ridges on the bead seat, even though some of their photos show them.

    If the bead hooks were dropped the inner width would probably increase... like Stan's Crest/EX vs. the older models.
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHank View Post
    I know this thread is dedicated to "beadless" carbon rims, and correct me if I'm wrong but both the Shimano WH-MT65F and the Arch Ex wheels are aluminum with "bead hooks"
    Stan's EX wheels have a very minimal bead hook.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cebeas View Post
    I agree the spesh wheels pricing is over the top. Don't think I could actually enjoy putting them through what mtb wheels go through. I have read a few articles about them and find the idea compelling. I would like the opportunity to try a light bicycle version.
    The hookless Rovals are $1200 MSRP for carbon rims, DT Swiss double butted spokes and a rear hub running DT Swiss 36t star ratchet. Seems pretty resonable for that set up. I found a set new on eBay for just under $800 delivered. I don't miss the hooks. Rolling 2.35 Nobby Nic's F/R at 25/26.5 psi. I even used the stock rim strip since I wasn't in the mood to tape. Holds air, no burps. Though the rear feels a little rolly in the corners. I should run a 2.25 back there.
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  20. #20
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    Thanks for all the info- Quick update.. I bought a set of the AM rims last night... will build AM classic/DT Revs/alloy/32@3x...

    Also I heard from LB this morning... they wrote to say they're checking this thread and thanks to you all for your input. They will produce hookless rims if "quite a few customers like this kind of rim..." no timeline mentioned.

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    Definitely interested; especially if the price is even lower...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Definitely interested; especially if the price is even lower...
    That's the part that would interesting to see if LB gets.
    Their pricings are going up, if the make hookless, the price needs to be lower not higher.

    Seeing as many cracked LB rims, you'd think they'd want to try it just to see if it's stronger as claimed.
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    If they're stronger and a wee bit lighter with reliable seal whats not to like. If the price comes down a wee bit too I'd be very keen.... Already bought the LB 26er wides and trying not to build a second set for my 29er (second/hack winter ti hardtail). This might just convinve me!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is just the Roval Control 29 carbon rim with the 22mm internal rim width that is without the bead hooks.Specialized Bicycle Components

    I believe the SL and Trail versions still have the hooks and the 21mm inner rim width.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is just the Roval Control 29 carbon rim with the 22mm internal rim width that is without the bead hooks.Specialized Bicycle Components

    I believe the SL and Trail versions still have the hooks and the 21mm inner rim width.
    Nope they apparently changed the Traverse 29 SL:

    "For aggressive trail and all-mountain riders who aren't afraid to take risks and go big, this carbon 29" wheel will surprise you in how light a wheelset can be while still offering the durability to attack the whole mountain.
    Rim Type: carbon clincher, tubeless ready, zero bead hook design
    Internal Rim Width: 22mm"
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  26. #26
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    FWIW, I view the bead-less hook design like front-wheel drive cars....not an improvement in performance, but simply a lower cost of manufacturing . Personally, give me a UST design bead hook anytime so I can run 20 psi or less and no burps and no leaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    FWIW, I view the bead-less hook design like front-wheel drive cars....not an improvement in performance, but simply a lower cost of manufacturing . Personally, give me a UST design bead hook anytime so I can run 20 psi or less and no burps and no leaks.
    You apparently haven't read much about it. Read the review on here for the Specialized hookless, your concerns are addressed and are a non issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You apparently haven't read much about it.
    I am no expert on rim design, but the thread I have followed is located here. To say hookless/beadless is a "non-issue" is a bit naive, but since you apparently possess knowledge beyond my pay scale, please enlighten us. What exactly are the performance advantages of a hookless/beadless design? How do those "performance advantages" relate to tires running tubeless at low pressures (~20 psi)?

    Actually, I am considering a set of Rovals, just want to get the full picture first.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    I am no expert on rim design, but the thread I have followed is located here. To say hookless/beadless is a "non-issue" is a bit naive, but since you apparently possess knowledge beyond my pay scale, please enlighten us. What exactly are the performance advantages of a hookless/beadless design? How do those "performance advantages" relate to tires running tubeless at low pressures (~20 psi)?

    Actually, I am considering a set of Rovals, just want to get the full picture first.
    Depends on you're definition of performance. Somewhere buried in that thread they talk about the continuous layup of the fiber at the bead make the rim more impact resistant- stronger and the process is simpler so it has the side effect of making the rim cheaper also. SO if you don't consider being stronger for less $$ and increase in performance, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

    He says right at the begin they've tested plenty of tires for blow off.

    Here's a good review on them where Francis uses a c lamp to try and get them to burb: 2013 Specialized Roval Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 | Mountain Bike Review
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Depends on you're definition of performance. Somewhere buried in that thread they talk about the continuous layup of the fiber at the bead make the rim more impact resistant- stronger and the process is simpler so it has the side effect of making the rim cheaper also. A: SO if you don't consider being stronger for less $$ and increase in performance, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

    He says right at the begin they've tested plenty of tires for blow off.

    Here's a good review on them where Francis uses a B: c lamp to try and get them to burb: 2013 Specialized Roval Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 | Mountain Bike Review
    A: Performance as in how the rim/tire unit performs under the dynamic stress of riding. Sure, we all know that running a tire at 30+ psi will work, especially in a normal XC type trail. However, I would like to know if the hookless design is better or worse when running at relatively low psi, 20 psi where I get the maximum contact patch, grip, and small bump compliance out of a given tire in an AM/Enduro type trail. Maybe my needs are different.

    B: A C-clamp test is a static test, not dynamic test. It is helpful, but not the same as real world use.

    The argument here is not "can these rims take abuse", but what does the hookless design bring, if anything, to the dynamic performance table. I'm betting not.

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    I can't speak from experience with the rovals, but quite a lot of people are running these things at low pressures with no reports of blow offs (that I have come across).

    Wouldn't that speak to what's being brought to the 'dynamic performance table'?

    To me, if they are in fact doing just fine under these stresses, (which it seems they are) and they are also better able to handle rim strikes, and they are cheaper, I'd say they are certainly bringing something to the table.

    I want some. Be it the Rovals themselves, or some Chinese rims that I can lace up to centerlock hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    The argument here is not "can these rims take abuse", but what does the hookless design bring, if anything, to the dynamic performance table. I'm betting not.
    A hookless rim design will allow for a larger internal width rim at nearly the same weight. A wider internal rim width supports the tire better when loaded laterally (while cornering, for example.) So in theory you should get less tire squirm and a reduced chance of burping, all other things being equal.

    The best protection against burping, however, is a tight interference fit between the bead and rim and the presence of inner beadlock hump.
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  33. #33
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    If hookless is so great, then why do the vast majority of bike rims bother with bead hooks on their rims? Just Curious.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    If hookless is so great, then why do the vast majority of bike rims bother with bead hooks on their rims? Just Curious.
    Because it has long had a purpose and only with the relatively recent coevolution of tubeless and carbon rims has the recipe been right for its development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Because it has long had a purpose and only with the relatively recent coevolution of tubeless and carbon rims has the recipe been right for its development.
    I see. So you wouldn´t be able to run those hookless rims with a "regular" tire and tubes?

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    I see. So you wouldn´t be able to run those hookless rims with a "regular" tire and tubes?

    Cheers!
    No, a regular tire and tube would be just fine on hookless rims.

    What meltingfeather meant is that with the advent of UST and tubeless ready tires, the beads have become stronger and the manufacturing tolerances better. This allows a hookless rim to be used.
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    My question is if Specialized thought this was a better design that made the wheel strong, lighter and less expensive, why did they not implement this on the more expensive Roval carbon wheel and increase that price or market the wheel as better?

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    LB Site describes a 26 inch hookless...

    Don't know about specialized, but did just notice that LB is ramping up production on 26 inch hookless rims...

    I wonder if they are out in the wild yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyinCO View Post
    My question is if Specialized thought this was a better design that made the wheel strong, lighter and less expensive, why did they not implement this on the more expensive Roval carbon wheel and increase that price or market the wheel as better?
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.
    You think FWD cars are about cost really?

    Hookless has been around a long time. Hookless Rim [Archive] - Bike Forums

    Funny you mention the UST design when most of todays tubeless compatible rims aren't even UST standard.
    Last edited by TwoTone; 06-08-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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    As mentioned in the article, hookless beads aren't new. They're pretty much the standard for virtually any other type of tubeless tire. It's a better system and it eliminates the weak part of the rim which gets damaged during rim strikes.

    Oh, and FWD has a long list of advantages for the average person. Which, is why they've become the standard:
    - Understeer is a less dangerous than oversteer for those who aren't experienced at hustling a car around at the limit of traction.
    - FWD has much better snow traction for those of us that get the white stuff.
    - More interior and trunk room.
    - More efficient drivetrain with less weight (better fuel economy).

  42. #42
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.
    UST rims don't work well tubeless with "any tire available."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You think FWD cars are about cost really? Yes, for the most part.

    Hookless has been around a long time. Hookless Rim [Archive] - Bike Forums Yep, it has!

    Funny you mention the UST design when most of todays tubeless compatible rims aren't even UST standard. Correct, and I'm sure you know why. Could it be because they don't want to pay the royalty fee to Mavic?
    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    As mentioned in the article, hookless beads aren't new. They're pretty much the standard for virtually any other type of tubeless tire. It's a better system and it eliminates the weak part of the rim which gets damaged during rim strikes. Hmm, I didn't know that!

    Oh, and FWD has a long list of advantages for the average person. Agreed. Which, is why they've become the standard: Google is our friend, right!
    - Understeer is a less dangerous than oversteer for those who aren't experienced at hustling a car around at the limit of traction.
    - FWD has much better snow traction for those of us that get the white stuff. Maybe for that "average" person but I prefer my RWD 4-Runner over my FWD Element in ANY road condition, but that's just me.
    - More interior and trunk room.
    - More efficient drivetrain with less weight (better fuel economy).
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    UST rims don't work well tubeless with "any tire available." True enough.
    So there you have it, hookless is the wave of the future (and the past) because... well it's the best.

    Now we take you back to your regularly scheduled program in progress (and leave that poor dead horse alone).

  44. #44
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    I am 100% onboard with the hookless idea for carbon rims. Tubeless tires must have a bead that is strong and tight around the rim bed to seal up anyway, so there is no need for the hook. The hook was only there for tires with poor tolerances but without a tube to prevent the bead from moving around, a bead hook would not hold a poor tolerance tire anyway. Having no hook strengthens the most glaring weak point of a carbon clincher (the outer circumference of the rim wall) by putting more material there to reinforce it in case a sharp-edged hit makes it past your tire and strikes the rim. It makes perfect sense.

    With that said, I think the Specialized wheelset looks like a great design AND a surprisingly good deal. I love DT hubs. But I personally do not like the 1.5 mm center section of the spokes (too easy to break when a stick finds its way in, 1.7-1.8 mm is where its at). And I feel 6 bolt is inferior to centerlock, because I am partial to Shimano rotors in which case the 6 bolt setup weighs like 30g more per wheel (heavier hub, heavier rotor, heavier bolts) with no benefit. I would also prefer J-bend spokes although I could live with straight pull if it weren't for my other gripes. Basically I have total faith in their design from an engineering standpoint but it is personal preference things preventing me from buying the wheelset. I might as well note that the only bike I have a factory (or "system") wheelset on is my road bike.

    Therefore I would KILL for some hookless carbon rims from a reputable manufacturer (keeping my fingers crossed for Stans). I am not sold on Light Bikes' ability to thoroughly engineer a product to be bombproof but at least if they went to a hookless design I would consider them after letting others be the guinea pigs for about a year.

  45. #45
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    Was emailing Nancy last week and she said that they will start making hookless 29er rims in two months. So I'm thinking of waiting to order until they come out. Any idea whether the Bontrager rim strip will work with these like they do with the current rims, or if tape will work better?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Was emailing Nancy last week and she said that they will start making hookless 29er rims in two months. So I'm thinking of waiting to order until they come out. Any idea whether the Bontrager rim strip will work with these like they do with the current rims, or if tape will work better?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4
    So you're really asking people what will work better on a yet to be manufactured rim? Tape for sure.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf
    I like the weight. But what is the interior dimension is the other important part of the design. Closer to 30 is what would be best.

  49. #49
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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4
    After doing a little searching, the LB hookless rim looks similar to the Roval hookless rim - same inner and outer width and similar shape - which gives me some confidence that they should work as well in terms of holding tires on.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

  50. #50
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    Roval Control 29 Carbons are 27mm external 22mm internal width.
    I hope these will be wider.
    How about asking Nancy.

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