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  1. #1
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I'd rather have them build a set of tubulars, like the DT Swiss 950T rims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'd rather have them build a set of tubulars, like the DT Swiss 950T rims.
    Same, I would buy China carbon tubular 29er wheels in an instant.

  4. #4
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    I'm going to buy a set of wheels from then in the next few months as I'm building a new bike up. I was looking at the all mountain wheel they have but may go the beadless rims. Just have to wait and see what other people say about them.

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    I'd like to see a wider inner rim dimension like 26mm or more. I would buy some rims right away if that happened.

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    Thanks all! I'll share this with them. I would also jump on a wider inner rim dimension..

    I thought there'd be a little more interest in some knock offs of the new Roval Control 29's.. but maybe the tech is a little unproven...? Hard to wade through the hype, but a rim without a bead hook makes sense to me...

    I'll post back if they let me order a set of custom hookless rims...

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    O.K I'll ask not what's a bead hook (but I wouldn't mind a pic) but why no bead hook? Should I assume you are riding tubeless?

    Thanks,

    Hank

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    Sorry, yes a bead hook is the inner "lip" common on mountain bike rims. It matches the tire bead, which is the thicker ring on the inner circumference of the tire.

    The new specialized roval carbon rims do away with the bead hook. This allows them to have a thicker rim wall, strengthening a part of the rim that is prone to failure, and to use simpler manufacturing methods, driving down costs.

    I'd like to try out the technology, but not at specialized's price point.. This thread is meant to find out if there is demand for lightbicycle to produce a hookless version of their carbon rims... Hope that helps!

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    I agree the spesh wheels pricing is over the top. Don't think I could actually enjoy putting them through what mtb wheels go through. I have read a few articles about them and find the idea compelling. I would like the opportunity to try a light bicycle version.
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  10. #10
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought that the LB rims were hookless, that the use of Bonty rim strips is what facilitated them running tubeless.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.
    I wonder if Specialized filed a patent on it, even though this is the way all rims were made up up to about 40 years ago?

  12. #12
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    It wouldn't matter if Specialized held a patent on the rims as it won't affect a Chinese company. The Chinese carbon dual suspension frames all have the fsr rear end.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by ijd View Post
    It wouldn't matter if Specialized held a patent on the rims as it won't affect a Chinese company. The Chinese carbon dual suspension frames all have the fsr rear end.
    There are worldwide patents, and US patents. If Spec obtained a worldwide patent it would apply to a Chinese company. If it was just a US patent it would apply for rims sold in/to the US no matter where they were made.
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Thanks for the explanation jrat and forum members. I've been dealing with going tubeless on both my wife's and my bike. Have not gone CF on our MTBs because they are both entry level Specialized bikes so no CF wheels. I purchased a Shimano WH-MT65F UST 26" wheelset for her for well under $200. They are just beautiful straight-pull spoke wheels. I tried mounting a pair of Continental Trail King 2.2 tires I got from performance with Stan's Sealant. One tire holds air beautifully the other required a tube. I believe she should buy a pair of Captain Control 2-Bliss tires. Even though I've heard that UST tires are "much heavier" I'm not sure that UST rims and 2-Bliss tires aren't "good enough". What do you guys think ?

    Tomorrow my Stan's Arch Ex 29er wheelset with XT hubs should arrive. I'm planning to attempt the installation myself. I picked up a small 120 volt tire inflator from Home Depot and hope it'll be enough to jump-start 29er tire installation that I've heard can be tricky. The Stan's wheelset is around 1600g. I'm not sure what my stock Alex wheels weigh yet. I'll be eliminating tubes and tire liners so I'm betting that's around 2lbs of rotational mass I'll be loosing plus whatever the difference between the Alex build and the Stan's wheelbuild is. So maybe I'm guessing I'll save 2.5-3.0 lbs or so.

    I know this thread is dedicated to "beadless" carbon rims, and correct me if I'm wrong but both the Shimano WH-MT65F and the Arch Ex wheels are aluminum with "bead hooks"

    I look forward to the day I build a China CF Full Suspension MTB I'm not there yet but alwys love to hear what you guys are up to and always appreciate the good advice I get.

    Thanks,

    Hank

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    Good luck! After you get the hang of it, mounting tubeless is not usually a problem.. For the past few years, I've mounted Stans and Stan's conversion-kit wheels with a floor pump. Haven't needed a compressor.

    Being able to take the valve core out helps you get enough air in there to mount them. And yes, all of the rims you mentioned have bead hooks. Not a big deal either way...

    Since I've been looking hard at my first set of carbon rims, I was just wondering whether to wait for light-bicycle to start producing hookless... Now that I've checked out the cheap carbon wheels wheels thread again, I don't really have too many concerns about the strength of their AM rims. And frankly, I realized how long it it will take for them to whip up a new mold and start production...

    @pimpbot shiggy and ijd... Wondering the same thing myself- i doubt spesh could patent it, but i wouldn't put it past them. The folks at LB said "Our engineers have known about this process for more than for a year and we have produced a set. If it becomes popular, we will switch all our rims over." Doesn't sound like they are too concerned..

    We'll see what comes out next year.. but if $1700 wheels can drop to $1200, then $165 rims could drop to $115... which is less than two tires.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Good luck! After you get the hang of it, mounting tubeless is not usually a problem.. For the past few years, I've mounted Stans and Stan's conversion-kit wheels with a floor pump. Haven't needed a compressor.

    Being able to take the valve core out helps you get enough air in there to mount them. And yes, all of the rims you mentioned have bead hooks. Not a big deal either way...

    Since I've been looking hard at my first set of carbon rims, I was just wondering whether to wait for light-bicycle to start producing hookless... Now that I've checked out the cheap carbon wheels wheels thread again, I don't really have too many concerns about the strength of their AM rims. And frankly, I realized how long it it will take for them to whip up a new mold and start production...

    @pimpbot shiggy and ijd... Wondering the same thing myself- i doubt spesh could patent it, but i wouldn't put it past them. The folks at LB said "Our engineers have known about this process for more than for a year and we have produced a set. If it becomes popular, we will switch all our rims over." Doesn't sound like they are too concerned..

    We'll see what comes out next year.. but if $1700 wheels can drop to $1200, then $165 rims could drop to $115... which is less than two tires.



    I wouldn't expect to see LB lower prices considering the backlog they seem to be operating on.

  17. #17
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    I wouldn't expect to see LB lower prices considering the backlog they seem to be operating on.
    They have already gone up at least twice and probably will more. Supply and demand.

    The current rims do have bead hooks. They lack bead lock ridges on the bead seat, even though some of their photos show them.

    If the bead hooks were dropped the inner width would probably increase... like Stan's Crest/EX vs. the older models.
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHank View Post
    I know this thread is dedicated to "beadless" carbon rims, and correct me if I'm wrong but both the Shimano WH-MT65F and the Arch Ex wheels are aluminum with "bead hooks"
    Stan's EX wheels have a very minimal bead hook.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cebeas View Post
    I agree the spesh wheels pricing is over the top. Don't think I could actually enjoy putting them through what mtb wheels go through. I have read a few articles about them and find the idea compelling. I would like the opportunity to try a light bicycle version.
    The hookless Rovals are $1200 MSRP for carbon rims, DT Swiss double butted spokes and a rear hub running DT Swiss 36t star ratchet. Seems pretty resonable for that set up. I found a set new on eBay for just under $800 delivered. I don't miss the hooks. Rolling 2.35 Nobby Nic's F/R at 25/26.5 psi. I even used the stock rim strip since I wasn't in the mood to tape. Holds air, no burps. Though the rear feels a little rolly in the corners. I should run a 2.25 back there.
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  20. #20
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    Thanks for all the info- Quick update.. I bought a set of the AM rims last night... will build AM classic/DT Revs/alloy/32@3x...

    Also I heard from LB this morning... they wrote to say they're checking this thread and thanks to you all for your input. They will produce hookless rims if "quite a few customers like this kind of rim..." no timeline mentioned.

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    Definitely interested; especially if the price is even lower...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Definitely interested; especially if the price is even lower...
    That's the part that would interesting to see if LB gets.
    Their pricings are going up, if the make hookless, the price needs to be lower not higher.

    Seeing as many cracked LB rims, you'd think they'd want to try it just to see if it's stronger as claimed.
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    If they're stronger and a wee bit lighter with reliable seal whats not to like. If the price comes down a wee bit too I'd be very keen.... Already bought the LB 26er wides and trying not to build a second set for my 29er (second/hack winter ti hardtail). This might just convinve me!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrat2010 View Post
    Apologies if this has been posted, but couldn't find it in the massive Chinese carbon rim thread.

    So I asked a rep from lightbicycle.com about making a 29er rim similar to the 2013 carbon Rovals that have been getting a lot of press lately. Basically a version of their wider AM rim built without bead hooks, which apparently makes it stronger and cheaper to manufacture.

    She said they can do it, and the factory has already produced a set. They are just waiting to see if the design will be popular.

    So what do you all think? Is there demand? I definitely would try a set, especially if it built a stronger and cheaper wheel. I figure if there is demand, I'll let them know. Thanks.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is just the Roval Control 29 carbon rim with the 22mm internal rim width that is without the bead hooks.Specialized Bicycle Components

    I believe the SL and Trail versions still have the hooks and the 21mm inner rim width.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is just the Roval Control 29 carbon rim with the 22mm internal rim width that is without the bead hooks.Specialized Bicycle Components

    I believe the SL and Trail versions still have the hooks and the 21mm inner rim width.
    Nope they apparently changed the Traverse 29 SL:

    "For aggressive trail and all-mountain riders who aren't afraid to take risks and go big, this carbon 29" wheel will surprise you in how light a wheelset can be while still offering the durability to attack the whole mountain.
    Rim Type: carbon clincher, tubeless ready, zero bead hook design
    Internal Rim Width: 22mm"
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  26. #26
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    FWIW, I view the bead-less hook design like front-wheel drive cars....not an improvement in performance, but simply a lower cost of manufacturing . Personally, give me a UST design bead hook anytime so I can run 20 psi or less and no burps and no leaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    FWIW, I view the bead-less hook design like front-wheel drive cars....not an improvement in performance, but simply a lower cost of manufacturing . Personally, give me a UST design bead hook anytime so I can run 20 psi or less and no burps and no leaks.
    You apparently haven't read much about it. Read the review on here for the Specialized hookless, your concerns are addressed and are a non issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You apparently haven't read much about it.
    I am no expert on rim design, but the thread I have followed is located here. To say hookless/beadless is a "non-issue" is a bit naive, but since you apparently possess knowledge beyond my pay scale, please enlighten us. What exactly are the performance advantages of a hookless/beadless design? How do those "performance advantages" relate to tires running tubeless at low pressures (~20 psi)?

    Actually, I am considering a set of Rovals, just want to get the full picture first.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    I am no expert on rim design, but the thread I have followed is located here. To say hookless/beadless is a "non-issue" is a bit naive, but since you apparently possess knowledge beyond my pay scale, please enlighten us. What exactly are the performance advantages of a hookless/beadless design? How do those "performance advantages" relate to tires running tubeless at low pressures (~20 psi)?

    Actually, I am considering a set of Rovals, just want to get the full picture first.
    Depends on you're definition of performance. Somewhere buried in that thread they talk about the continuous layup of the fiber at the bead make the rim more impact resistant- stronger and the process is simpler so it has the side effect of making the rim cheaper also. SO if you don't consider being stronger for less $$ and increase in performance, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

    He says right at the begin they've tested plenty of tires for blow off.

    Here's a good review on them where Francis uses a c lamp to try and get them to burb: 2013 Specialized Roval Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 | Mountain Bike Review
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Depends on you're definition of performance. Somewhere buried in that thread they talk about the continuous layup of the fiber at the bead make the rim more impact resistant- stronger and the process is simpler so it has the side effect of making the rim cheaper also. A: SO if you don't consider being stronger for less $$ and increase in performance, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

    He says right at the begin they've tested plenty of tires for blow off.

    Here's a good review on them where Francis uses a B: c lamp to try and get them to burb: 2013 Specialized Roval Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 | Mountain Bike Review
    A: Performance as in how the rim/tire unit performs under the dynamic stress of riding. Sure, we all know that running a tire at 30+ psi will work, especially in a normal XC type trail. However, I would like to know if the hookless design is better or worse when running at relatively low psi, 20 psi where I get the maximum contact patch, grip, and small bump compliance out of a given tire in an AM/Enduro type trail. Maybe my needs are different.

    B: A C-clamp test is a static test, not dynamic test. It is helpful, but not the same as real world use.

    The argument here is not "can these rims take abuse", but what does the hookless design bring, if anything, to the dynamic performance table. I'm betting not.

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    I can't speak from experience with the rovals, but quite a lot of people are running these things at low pressures with no reports of blow offs (that I have come across).

    Wouldn't that speak to what's being brought to the 'dynamic performance table'?

    To me, if they are in fact doing just fine under these stresses, (which it seems they are) and they are also better able to handle rim strikes, and they are cheaper, I'd say they are certainly bringing something to the table.

    I want some. Be it the Rovals themselves, or some Chinese rims that I can lace up to centerlock hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    The argument here is not "can these rims take abuse", but what does the hookless design bring, if anything, to the dynamic performance table. I'm betting not.
    A hookless rim design will allow for a larger internal width rim at nearly the same weight. A wider internal rim width supports the tire better when loaded laterally (while cornering, for example.) So in theory you should get less tire squirm and a reduced chance of burping, all other things being equal.

    The best protection against burping, however, is a tight interference fit between the bead and rim and the presence of inner beadlock hump.
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  33. #33
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    If hookless is so great, then why do the vast majority of bike rims bother with bead hooks on their rims? Just Curious.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    If hookless is so great, then why do the vast majority of bike rims bother with bead hooks on their rims? Just Curious.
    Because it has long had a purpose and only with the relatively recent coevolution of tubeless and carbon rims has the recipe been right for its development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Because it has long had a purpose and only with the relatively recent coevolution of tubeless and carbon rims has the recipe been right for its development.
    I see. So you wouldn´t be able to run those hookless rims with a "regular" tire and tubes?

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    I see. So you wouldn´t be able to run those hookless rims with a "regular" tire and tubes?

    Cheers!
    No, a regular tire and tube would be just fine on hookless rims.

    What meltingfeather meant is that with the advent of UST and tubeless ready tires, the beads have become stronger and the manufacturing tolerances better. This allows a hookless rim to be used.
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    My question is if Specialized thought this was a better design that made the wheel strong, lighter and less expensive, why did they not implement this on the more expensive Roval carbon wheel and increase that price or market the wheel as better?

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    LB Site describes a 26 inch hookless...

    Don't know about specialized, but did just notice that LB is ramping up production on 26 inch hookless rims...

    I wonder if they are out in the wild yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyinCO View Post
    My question is if Specialized thought this was a better design that made the wheel strong, lighter and less expensive, why did they not implement this on the more expensive Roval carbon wheel and increase that price or market the wheel as better?
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.
    You think FWD cars are about cost really?

    Hookless has been around a long time. Hookless Rim [Archive] - Bike Forums

    Funny you mention the UST design when most of todays tubeless compatible rims aren't even UST standard.
    Last edited by TwoTone; 06-08-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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    As mentioned in the article, hookless beads aren't new. They're pretty much the standard for virtually any other type of tubeless tire. It's a better system and it eliminates the weak part of the rim which gets damaged during rim strikes.

    Oh, and FWD has a long list of advantages for the average person. Which, is why they've become the standard:
    - Understeer is a less dangerous than oversteer for those who aren't experienced at hustling a car around at the limit of traction.
    - FWD has much better snow traction for those of us that get the white stuff.
    - More interior and trunk room.
    - More efficient drivetrain with less weight (better fuel economy).

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Precisely, and I'll go back again to the FWD cars vs RWD corollary. FWD is about production costs and not about improved performance. A FWD car will get you from point A to point B and at a lower cost. The customer has to decide if that's "good enough".

    My guess is that a tire specifically designed for hookless rims is in the future, and it will "approach" the dynamic performance of the current UST design. However at this point, the hookless rim has to work with any tire available, and some work better than others.
    UST rims don't work well tubeless with "any tire available."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You think FWD cars are about cost really? Yes, for the most part.

    Hookless has been around a long time. Hookless Rim [Archive] - Bike Forums Yep, it has!

    Funny you mention the UST design when most of todays tubeless compatible rims aren't even UST standard. Correct, and I'm sure you know why. Could it be because they don't want to pay the royalty fee to Mavic?
    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    As mentioned in the article, hookless beads aren't new. They're pretty much the standard for virtually any other type of tubeless tire. It's a better system and it eliminates the weak part of the rim which gets damaged during rim strikes. Hmm, I didn't know that!

    Oh, and FWD has a long list of advantages for the average person. Agreed. Which, is why they've become the standard: Google is our friend, right!
    - Understeer is a less dangerous than oversteer for those who aren't experienced at hustling a car around at the limit of traction.
    - FWD has much better snow traction for those of us that get the white stuff. Maybe for that "average" person but I prefer my RWD 4-Runner over my FWD Element in ANY road condition, but that's just me.
    - More interior and trunk room.
    - More efficient drivetrain with less weight (better fuel economy).
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    UST rims don't work well tubeless with "any tire available." True enough.
    So there you have it, hookless is the wave of the future (and the past) because... well it's the best.

    Now we take you back to your regularly scheduled program in progress (and leave that poor dead horse alone).

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    I am 100% onboard with the hookless idea for carbon rims. Tubeless tires must have a bead that is strong and tight around the rim bed to seal up anyway, so there is no need for the hook. The hook was only there for tires with poor tolerances but without a tube to prevent the bead from moving around, a bead hook would not hold a poor tolerance tire anyway. Having no hook strengthens the most glaring weak point of a carbon clincher (the outer circumference of the rim wall) by putting more material there to reinforce it in case a sharp-edged hit makes it past your tire and strikes the rim. It makes perfect sense.

    With that said, I think the Specialized wheelset looks like a great design AND a surprisingly good deal. I love DT hubs. But I personally do not like the 1.5 mm center section of the spokes (too easy to break when a stick finds its way in, 1.7-1.8 mm is where its at). And I feel 6 bolt is inferior to centerlock, because I am partial to Shimano rotors in which case the 6 bolt setup weighs like 30g more per wheel (heavier hub, heavier rotor, heavier bolts) with no benefit. I would also prefer J-bend spokes although I could live with straight pull if it weren't for my other gripes. Basically I have total faith in their design from an engineering standpoint but it is personal preference things preventing me from buying the wheelset. I might as well note that the only bike I have a factory (or "system") wheelset on is my road bike.

    Therefore I would KILL for some hookless carbon rims from a reputable manufacturer (keeping my fingers crossed for Stans). I am not sold on Light Bikes' ability to thoroughly engineer a product to be bombproof but at least if they went to a hookless design I would consider them after letting others be the guinea pigs for about a year.

  45. #45
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    Was emailing Nancy last week and she said that they will start making hookless 29er rims in two months. So I'm thinking of waiting to order until they come out. Any idea whether the Bontrager rim strip will work with these like they do with the current rims, or if tape will work better?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Was emailing Nancy last week and she said that they will start making hookless 29er rims in two months. So I'm thinking of waiting to order until they come out. Any idea whether the Bontrager rim strip will work with these like they do with the current rims, or if tape will work better?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4
    So you're really asking people what will work better on a yet to be manufactured rim? Tape for sure.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf
    I like the weight. But what is the interior dimension is the other important part of the design. Closer to 30 is what would be best.

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    Just got some correspondence from Nancy. She said that their hookless 29er rim should be ready in a few weeks and sent me a profile drawing. I'm very interested; what do you think?

    29er 27W-24D 20130807 Model.pdf

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4
    After doing a little searching, the LB hookless rim looks similar to the Roval hookless rim - same inner and outer width and similar shape - which gives me some confidence that they should work as well in terms of holding tires on.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4

  50. #50
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    Roval Control 29 Carbons are 27mm external 22mm internal width.
    I hope these will be wider.
    How about asking Nancy.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Roval Control 29 Carbons are 27mm external 22mm internal width.
    I hope these will be wider.
    How about asking Nancy.
    Did you open the PDF that 'Nancy' sent him? Hint- your answer in there.

    Or maybe this tidbit
    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    After doing a little searching, the LB hookless rim looks similar to the Roval hookless rim - same inner and outer width and similar shape - which gives me some confidence that they should work as well in terms of holding tires on.

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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Did you open the PDF that 'Nancy' sent him? Hint- your answer in there.

    Or maybe this tidbit
    The file shows red arrowed measurement areas without dimensions and a name title that suggests a figure for the exterior width.
    Put out the actual figures.
    If this is a Roval clone with a 22mm interior dimension and the first in a series of products, then ok.
    I won't be buying it just because it is a hookless rim. I don't need a rim with that narrow of a dimension.
    I would be looking seriously at it when a version is offered with a 30mm interior dimension and hookless.
    WIDE LIGHTNING|29 TUBELESS
    Because hookless is easier to engineer and manufacture. Because it produces a stronger rim. These factors point to less need for a name brand to produce a lasting product you can count on. It should be cheaper than the hooked rim just like the Rovals.
    Last edited by eb1888; 10-01-2013 at 04:39 AM.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    The file shows red arrowed measurement areas without dimensions and a name title that suggests a figure for the exterior width.
    Put out the actual figures.
    If this is a Roval clone with a 22mm interior dimension and the first in a series of products, then ok.
    I won't be buying it just because it is a hookless rim. I don't need a rim with that narrow of a dimension.
    I would be looking seriously at it when a version is offered with a 30mm interior dimension and hookless.
    Because hookless is easier to engineer and manufacture. Because it produces a stronger rim. These factors point to less need for a name brand to produce a lasting product you can count on. It should be cheaper than the hooked rim just like the Rovals.
    The red arrows have measurements, they just went with a horrible light blue that may be hard to see.
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    The dimensions are in light blue next to the red arrows: 27 outer width, 22 inner width, 24 deep. I might have preferred a slightly wider width, but it's only 1mm narrower than their hooked rim and only 0.6 mm narrower than my original Flow rim. The fact that it follows a known design is a tradeoff in my mind.

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    Would you go for an alloy rim like the Wide Lightning over a narrower carbon offering?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Would you go for an alloy rim like the Wide Lightning over a narrower carbon offering?
    Yes or the Derby carbon rim which may be made by Light Bicycle with a 29mm inside width.
    It has a serial number beginning MR0401... LB's begin MR0101...

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Would you go for an alloy rim like the Wide Lightning over a narrower carbon offering?
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Yes or the Derby carbon rim which may be made by Light Bicycle with a 29mm inside width.
    It has a serial number beginning MR0401... LB's begin MR0101...
    That's the question I'm debating now. The Wide Lightning does not appear to be available as a rim only. Current front rim is a Bontrager Duster rim (28 mm outer/24 mm inner widths), and I'd prefer not to go narrower - especially since I've got a 29 x 2.35" Ikon up front.

    I had been considering Stans Flow Ex (for width) or Arch Ex (for weight). But the LB wider rim seemed like the best combination of width, weight, stiffness, and cost. My only reservation was durability, which the hookless design improves.

    But now that the LB hookless design turns out to be narrower (22 mm inner) I'm torn between it, the wider clincher (23 mm inner), or the Derby rim (29 mm inner) for another ~$90. I guess it all comes down to how much difference the width really makes: is the width of the Derby worth the ~50% increase in cost? It's a bigger change from my current rim width than the other options, which makes it a little scary. Ideally (to me) the LB hookless rim would have had an inner width of ~26 mm. Any thoughts to help me end my internal debate?

  58. #58
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    I think the width of the Derby is worth $90. You can get the HD layup version for even more durability although it may be less needed for a front wheel.
    The only unanswered question is when will LB begin offering another wider model of their own. At what price.
    Someone should ask Nancy.

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    I think the width of the Derby is worth $90. You can get the HD layup version for even more durability although it may be less needed for a front wheel.
    The only unanswered question is when will LB begin offering another wider model of their own.
    Someone should ask Nancy.
    I have sent a message to Nancy with that question - haven't heard back yet due to Chinese holiday.

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  60. #60
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    Not to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but I'd like a wider inner width, too. Like the new American Classic Wide Lightening, but in carbon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    I'd like to see a wider inner rim dimension like 26mm or more. I would buy some rims right away if that happened.

  61. #61
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Not to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but I'd like a wider inner width, too. Like the new American Classic Wide Lightening, but in carbon.
    Have you seen the Derby rims thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    I have sent a message to Nancy with that question - haven't heard back yet due to Chinese holiday.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4
    I heard back from Nancy - it doesn't sound like they have a place to make wider hookless rims yet, but they may in the future. So for now the hookless options are the LB 27 mm or the Derby 35 mm - price vs width. Hmmmmm... decisions.

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    I just ordered a set of the new wider Light Bike hookless rims from Nancy. I am anxious to see how they build up.

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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clivus View Post
    I just ordered a set of the new wider Light Bike hookless rims from Nancy. I am anxious to see how they build up.
    Cool! How much per rim? Nancy just let me know that the hookless rims were ready. I'm waiting to hear what she says about a wider version, but otherwise am ready to order. Please let us know how they turn out.

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  65. #65
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    But they aren't on their page?!?

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    I will interested in these, but am worried about the tolerances.
    For the no bead hook system to work, the tire needs to be held tightly by the floor of the rim, as well as having a small lip by the centre channel to ensure the tire doesn't move off when flat.
    I hope to hear that these will be good rims.

  67. #67
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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    I have purchased a cross frame from light bikes and had a great experience. I emailed Nancy and told her to send me an invoice for two unidirectional matte rims as soon as the new version was available. My invoice came yesterday. They are not on the website yet, but can be ordered if you email and ask. I paid $165 per rim.

    I think the rims are identical to the new specialized hookless and I suspect they are manufactured in the same facility.

  68. #68
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    Apologies if this has been posted in the thread; didn't read every comment. From LB:

    Yes, the 29er hookless rim is available currently. The outer width is 27mm, inter width is 22mm and the depth is 24mm. The new 29er hookless rim is specially designed for the XC and the weight is lighter. It's also tubeless-compatible.

    These are 2 versions of new 29er hookless rim:
    Standard version: less than 380g USD165/pcs
    AM version: 395~415g USD170/pcs

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clivus View Post
    I think the rims are identical to the new specialized hookless and I suspect they are manufactured in the same facility.
    Clivus, did you get these yet? Do you say this based on the PDF a page back, or visual comparison? Really considering these.

  70. #70
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    got mine ordered last week. fedex just arrived with the spokes and nipples.

  71. #71
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    One real "con" with the beadless that I have not seen addressed is how the tire bead does not stay seated/sealed when deflated. I have the beadles rovals with schwalbe TR SS tires. Very easy to inflate tubeless with the light-bicycle rims. Kind of a pain with the rovals. When you get a flat, they are virtually impossible to inflate tubeless trailside. They are bomb-proof rims, however. They are also very fast wheels. Unless their are a lot of beads breaking on the carbon rims, I think I would prefer to stick with carbon. I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience I had with the rovals?
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    One real "con" with the beadless that I have not seen addressed is how the tire bead does not stay seated/sealed when deflated. I have the beadles rovals with schwalbe TR SS tires. Very easy to inflate tubeless with the light-bicycle rims. Kind of a pain with the rovals. When you get a flat, they are virtually impossible to inflate tubeless trailside. They are bomb-proof rims, however. They are also very fast wheels. Unless their are a lot of beads breaking on the carbon rims, I think I would prefer to stick with carbon. I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience I had with the rovals?
    Sure would be nice if they designed some internal humps to prevent the bead from moving from the rim edge... similar to the bontrager rimstrip design. If not designed into the rim, offer a rim strip similar to the bontragers that will fit the hookless rims.

    On that note, has anyone tried the bontrager rim strips with the new light bicycle hookless rims?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    On that note, has anyone tried the bontrager rim strips with the new light bicycle hookless rims?
    Even better, does anyone have these at all and can post a pic? Really would like to see these.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?-lb-27-mm-hookless.jpgI don't have these rims yet, but Nancy sent me this picture of them (27 mm hookless)...

    I was wondering the same thing about the Bontrager strip or the bead shelf...

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    Sure would be nice if they designed some internal humps to prevent the bead from moving from the rim edge...
    The bumps on the Derby rims are meant to do that. Car rims have them. I'd like to see a profile drawing of their new rim and the wide one coming in 5 weeks.

  76. #76
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    Just ordered one of the 27mm wide rims to give it a try. Per Nancy the wider 35mm rims will be available at the end of the month. I was looking for more of an XC rim so I went with the narrower version.

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    Nancy sent me a profile of the 35mm hookless rim.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?-new-29er-hookless-35w-25d-1-.jpg  


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    I like this EXCEPT for the lack of inboard ridges to prevent burping.

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    Hey guys can anyone confirm the 592mm ERD specified on the new light-bicycle 27mm hook-less design is factual.

    I don't yet have my rims but was about to order spokes for wheel build.

    Thanks
    Darren

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    mine should be here by this time next week. i can tell you then if the 592 erd works. the specified erd for the 27.5s worked last spring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    mine should be here by this time next week. i can tell you then if the 592 erd works. the specified erd for the 27.5s worked last spring.
    got my hookless rims built up. it seems as though LB listened when alot of people complained about the erd on thier rims being short. thus the spoke ran out of thread before some people were satisfied with spoke tension.
    initial tightening of all the nipples to the end of the spoke threads. reviled tension on the tension meter. i used the same spoke length calculator that i used with the 27.5.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    got my hookless rims built up. it seems as though LB listened when alot of people complained about the erd on thier rims being short. thus the spoke ran out of thread before some people were satisfied with spoke tension.
    initial tightening of all the nipples to the end of the spoke threads. reviled tension on the tension meter. i used the same spoke length calculator that i used with the 27.5.
    Got any pictures?

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    Thanks for letting me know and confirming the ERD is accurate. What spoke calculator did you use BTW ?

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    I know this isn't the Fat Forum but is anyone thinking about the 35mm Hookless rim for the 3.0 Knard or the yet to be released 2.75 Dirt Wizard?
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    i used the dt swiss calculator
    Quote Originally Posted by daza67 View Post
    Thanks for letting me know and confirming the ERD is accurate. What spoke calculator did you use BTW ?
    the 3k finish looks so much better on these. the 27.5 i got last spring looked like crap.



  86. #86
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    So far, is LB the only chinese trader to offer hookless 29er rims?

    I'm looking for some circa 602mm ERD rims to build with my industry Nine hubs/spokes, but I guess I have to go with hooked ones.

  87. #87
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    I think this 29er 35W-25D will be my next rim.

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    Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?-american-classic-wide-lightning-section.jpg

    Here's a profile of the Wide Lightning with the inner shelf ridges for safety to prevent burping and failure. at speed. With a wider rim it becomes more likely a tire can be run at a lower pressure and be subject to burping.
    These ridges need to be part of the new 35W-25D LB rims, at least as an option.
    Last edited by eb1888; 12-09-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  89. #89
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    I was looking at building a set of these for a lighter, stiff set of racing wheels. I have had LB 27.5 rims that are holding up fine in the chunk, and just built Derby wide rims with DT 350s for a more burly everyday set at 1910g. I'm loving the Derby rims, but I am going to hold off on the LB rims since they don't have the hump to keep the tire from slipping into the center channel. I think this is pretty dangerous and a poorly designed rim!
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    Re: Demand for Chinese carbon "no bead hook" rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Pilot View Post
    I was looking at building a set of these for a lighter, stiff set of racing wheels. I have had LB 27.5 rims that are holding up fine in the chunk, and just built Derby wide rims with DT 350s for a more burly everyday set at 1910g. I'm loving the Derby rims, but I am going to hold off on the LB rims since they don't have the hump to keep the tire from slipping into the center channel. I think this is pretty dangerous and a poorly designed rim!
    The design would make me more nervous if it wasn't exactly the same as Specialized's hookless rim, which also doesn't have the bead hump. I doubt the big S would leave it out if it was dangerous to do so.

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  91. #91
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    Maybe your right. All I've read supports the hump and I haven't seen big S's product.
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    Spec's product is the Roval Carbon 29.
    It has a 22mm inside width. Mounted tires will not go down as low, probably 18psi.
    Derby's also have a ridge.

  93. #93
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    To the owners of hookless rims, what have your experiences been like? I'm on the edge of ordering a set of 26" hookless DH rims.

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    Has anyone successfully ordered the 35mm hookless rims yet? I am very interested in these rims.

    I am also considering the derbys, but they seem like they come from the same factory, but with better support.

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    Anyone try the bontrager rim strips in the hookless rims yet (27mm)? Trying to determine if they'd be an easy solution to the no internal hump design of the LB rims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasshouselabs View Post
    Has anyone successfully ordered the 35mm hookless rims yet? I am very interested in these rims.

    I am also considering the derbys, but they seem like they come from the same factory, but with better support.
    Derbys and LB's dont appear of the same design since LB's dont appear to have the safety bead. and as for better support, unless youre mainland China, I cant image LB having better support than a DerbyRims
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    Derbys and LB's dont appear of the same design since LB's dont appear to have the safety bead. and as for better support, unless youre mainland China, I cant image LB having better support than a DerbyRims
    Of course. Rereading my comment it is a bit unclear. I was saying the Derby Rims appear similar (I know they have the bead hump), like they come from the same factory, but with much better customer support than LB.

    If I go the Derby route, I will probably be in 1200 dollars by the time I get the wheels on the bike. If I go the LB route, I will likely be able to knock 200 or more off that price.

    Another thing I am concerned with is the weight of the Derby wheels. It seems as though a lot of people are getting build weights around 1900g, which I think would be overkill for my riding. I do almost 100% XC, but it is very aggressive XC with lots of technical rock gardens (Central Texas). I am interested in a strong, but light weight wheel.

    I am considering the Rovals because they are light, ready to rock, and I have a huge specialized dealer down the street. I just don't know if I would be happier with something wider.

  98. #98
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    I should add that I am a bit of a clydesdale at 225 geared. Thats one of the reasons I am interested in a burlier wheelset, but I do hope to be 200-205 geared in the next few months. (I quit drinking all the time in an effort to save money for wheels, its been working amazingly well.)

  99. #99
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    Has anyone built up and used the 35mm LB rims yet? Before getting my order in it would be good to hear some first hand experiences. If set up tubeless what method did you use? Thanks.

  100. #100
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    Been Emailing LB this last week. I've replaced one Crest in the last two years and am riding on two hammer repaired versions now. So I need to rebuild. I race endurance XC on rooted and rocky/boulder terrain and also tend to get a little aggressive on the downhills and jumps. I wanted carbon to go with my Epic Carbon Expert but also wanted something that I hope will be a little more durable. Carolin Du sent me a lot of useful information, and cross sketches reflecting messurements. She also helped me with a decal design for the rims. On Sat night I ordered the RM29C02 300mm wide, 23mm inner with the bead hook in UD. Will have to see how they actually weigh compared to the Crest, but I am not concerned about a few grams. I'll just have to muscle up. They are supposed to be the new layup version so I will have to just wait and see. I run Specialized 2.0 rear and 2.1 front so I didn't see the benefit of a 35/30 rim. I also prefered the hook for tubeless. I can just better visualize the tire hook seating into the rim hook better then I can settle with the sidewall laying up to a hookless wall. Carolin Du was back and forth with me Sat night on email for almost two hours. If their customer service is a comparison of the product, I'm sure I'll be pleased.
    Unicoi29

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