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(Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

2M views 9K replies 1K participants last post by  chomxxo 
#1 ·
I've seen multiple discussions of carbon 29er frames, but no such discussion of 29er rims. Current domestic carbon rims are more expensive than one of these frames. Anybody found carbon 29er clincher rims cheap?
 
#3,882 · (Edited)
Here's a quick review after ~1000km in the last few months.

Build: LB wide rims laced cross-3 to to I-9 Torch hubs with Sapim CX-Rays. 32 spoke. Both rims are 'old process', 3K weave matte finish, and came in at 385g +/- a few grams. The rims' non-angled spoke holes are annoying (come on LB, you can and should fix this!). After experimenting with a few nips, I found the rounded profile of Sapim poly-ax nips were best at dealing with the non-angled holes.

Me and bike: Wheels are on my 100mm bike. I am 175lb, 6'2, reasonably successful XC and endurance racer for an old dude, and also ride a lot of stuff that is labelled 'all mountain' with, uh, vigor (e.g BC NS, Sedona H's, Enchilada, etc). I am not a hucker though, nor do I consider myself particularly hard on wheels or bike parts in general.

Where ridden: Since building the wheels, I've ridden Pisgah (Pilot, Black Mtn, Squirrel yadda yadda numerous times), plus all 7 stages of TSEpic stage race (podium) in central PA including the DH runs which were used for enduros. TSEpic has a lot of rocks. Really.

Tire compatibility: Notubes yellow tape and sealant has been successful for me. I've run Schwalbe Snakeskin Ralphs and Rons (both 2.25") , and 2.2" Ikon EXOs. Tires mount with hand pressure, but do _not_ seal as easily as on my Notubes rims. A good compressor is needed. But once mounted, they have been fine. Front/rear pressures of 21/23 to 28/30ish, depending on course and whims.

Verdict: The rims built up very nicely. Straight and even tension. They are still dead true after the riding described above. The rims are very scuffed now, but still working fine. There have been a few hard rock strikes to the rim but the rims are holding up OK. I'm pretty sure I'd have dented my aluminum rims. Compared to my aluminum rims of similar weight, the LB wheels are noticably stiffer. I like that. A lot.

Thumbs up so far.
 
#1,036 ·
To the spineless cheap shot, thanks for the negative rep. I guess starting a requested thread is being a f***ng D bag in your opinion.

My wheels are coming together well. I will give a ride report as soon as my other Chinese import project shows up, slow custom paint process.

Build:
12k Gloss, with extra material for Clydes
Sapim Lasers and Sapim Nips
Hope SS and QR Hubs
 
#6,252 ·
Hi there, I am after some new rims. I have heard that you could get some cheap chinese rims, so i googled it, found this thread, and now i'm here.

The thread seems quite large, and I can't be bothered reading any of it, so could someone (whose time is less valuable than mine) please summarize the whole thread for me please? i.e. list all the alternative rims/wheels, where to get them, a complied summary of reviews of all wheels/rims, reports of breakages, warranty experiences etc.
 
#8,858 ·
I have some Nextie 29" 36mm carbon rims I built up with DT Swiss 350 hubs and supercomp spokes. I got the rims on eBay for a steal and decided to test the waters of carbon wheels. I've ridden them since last August with zero problems. True, light, bombproof, cheap. I ride them on pretty rough terrain up on Mt Wilson/LA area. A few weeks ago I was doing a Darkside shuttle (Sturtevant trail) and got a short but girthy stick timed just right which lodged in my front wheel and took out 5 spokes in about 2 seconds and already 2 miles downhill and many more from the finish. Surprisingly, I twisted the dangling spokes onto others checked the rim and wheel and was able to finish the ride no problem, albeit carefully. If the rims weren't carbon they likely would have collapsed from my weight, possibly injuring myself and likely wouldn't have been able to ride the remaining 6 miles. I just ordered new spokes and relaced the wheel with no problems; spoke holes were spotless. So this is a confirmation that cheap Chinese can hold up and perform better than expected and I think shows a benefit of carbon over alloy (in this situation).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#8,861 ·
I have some Nextie 29" 36mm carbon rims I built up with DT Swiss 350 hubs and supercomp spokes. I got the rims on eBay for a steal and decided to test the waters of carbon wheels. I've ridden them since last August with zero problems. True, light, bombproof, cheap. I ride them on pretty rough terrain up on Mt Wilson/LA area. A few weeks ago I was doing a Darkside shuttle (Sturtevant trail) and got a short but girthy stick timed just right which lodged in my front wheel and took out 5 spokes in about 2 seconds and already 2 miles downhill and many more from the finish. Surprisingly, I twisted the dangling spokes onto others checked the rim and wheel and was able to finish the ride no problem, albeit carefully. If the rims weren't carbon they likely would have collapsed from my weight, possibly injuring myself and likely wouldn't have been able to ride the remaining 6 miles. I just ordered new spokes and relaced the wheel with no problems; spoke holes were spotless. So this is a confirmation that cheap Chinese can hold up and perform better than expected and I think shows a benefit of carbon over alloy (in this situation).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn, that is hardcore!
 
#908 ·
Extended test report

I've been riding these rims laced onto I-9 wheels since late January. I attempted to build the front wheel myself but had difficulty keeping it in round, so our mechanic finished it off and completed the rear in full. He had this to say: "They're not much harder to build than aluminum rims." Brass nipples and 2.0/1.8 Wheelsmith spokes. I measured an ERD of 602. Final tension was 20-22 on the Park tensionmeter. Weight for the set was a bit over four pounds (without skewers). I used Caffelatex rim tape with a Stans tubeless valve, and mounted Hans Dampfs with 90ml of Slime Pro. Pumped the tire up (with a floor pump, no less) until I heard the telltale pop, and then reduced the pressure to about 25PSI (200lb rider).

My first ride was on slushy, snow covered ice, and the tire burped about an hour in. This happened again the next day, again about an hour in. For the next month, I used studded tires out of necessity (mine are not tubeless compatible) and rode an average of about twice a week on the wheels.

4-6 weeks ago, under the advice of indyfab25 ( :thumbsup: ), I installed a Bontrager tubeless rim strip over the Caffelatex tape. Since then, I have not had a single flat, burp, or other unpleasantness in ~20 rides. During this time period, my pressure has fluctuated greatly. At the lowest possible pressure of 19 psi, I was consistently hitting rim, occasionally on sharp rocks and frequently at pace. Recently, I have begun to do a bit more freeriding including dirt jumps, 2-3 foot drops, and high speeds through rock gardens. Just for giggles, I flipped the lockout on my suspension occasionally before big drops. The wheels are as true now as they were the day they were built, and no one's done a thing to them.

Ride quality? Uh…good! Stiffness? Uh…really stiff! Honestly, I don't feel right fabricating some technobabble to sound smart. I don't ride with a discerning eye toward minute details. I ride because it's fun, and if getting so caught up in the thrill of it that you lose the ability to analyze minuscule details is a crime, then paint me guilty :D
 
#1,743 ·
Go ahead, beat me up. I used too much pressure.

But I am honest and will pay for the replacement. The pictures will serve as warning to other people who might be seating their tires with extra pressure. As indicated here, this is especially bad for tubeless setups. While it was never a problem for me with dozens of rims in the past, it was this time. Probably because of the tubeless.

I sent pictures to light-bicycle. Perhaps they too will include a warning about not going near the max psi.
 
#1,762 ·
I'm not trying to beat you up about anything... My point is that you can't put that much pressure in ANY tubeless tire on ANY rim. Not just carbon. It worked before because there was a tube pressing the sidewall of the tire on the rim. You don't have that with tubeless.

There is tubeless for road bikes too and guess what. You can't put 120psi in it.
 
#3,023 ·
The guy was more concerned about tubeless. It was said numerous times within the first 200 posts, that the narrow rims didn't seem to have as close to an UST profile as the wider rims. The wider Carbonal rims don't seem to have an UST profile either. Some suggested adding the weight of Bontrager Rhythm rim strip to give the narrow LB rim a better profile for going tubeless. Maybe he wants to know how reliable tubeless is with maybe Stan's tape, or something else that doesn't add extra grams of unnecessary weight.

Regarding the other topic: I have no problem believing that external rim width affects rigidity along certain axes. I have no problem believing that there may be a significant volume increase with more space in the rim cavity. I was expecting people to say the wider rim was better tubeless, due to the shape of the rim bed and tire bead seat area.

Here's my understanding of the subject:

A tire has a fixed "circumference", the measurement from the bead on one side across to the other. When mounted to a rim, the area of its cross section includes the rim bed as a side. Increasing the size of the rim bed, increases the area within the tire. A "wider" tire, has a bigger circumference, making it not only wider, but also taller, with much more volume.



A tire has very limited stretch, due the construction of its carcass, and only stretches at high pressure, significantly higher than riding pressure. You change the shape of the tire's profile to be flatter, than rounder. Tire manufacturers test their tires' performance assuming that you are mounting them to an industry standard width (~19mm). You alter their performance when you change their shape. To me, it looks like wider rims make tire more "car-like", which aren't designed to be leaned over.

Specialized Ground Control 26x2.3 on a Syntace W35 rim:


Specialized Ground Control 26x2.3 on a Easton Haven rim

Can't really say anything for sure about width/height, but the roundness of the tire seems to be different, with the W35 (35mm ext, 28.4mm int) mounted tire displaying a flatter, less round profile. Just an exaggerated/contrasting visual comparison to help with speculation...

The area of a tire's contact patch is more related to the amount of pressure in the tire, than the width of the tire. Higher pressure and you have less contact patch area. Lower pressure and you have more. With a smaller contact patch, more weight is concentrated in it, creating more friction/force/weight within that area, but it can overwhelm the surface of the tire and/or ground, so spreading out the force may be better. There's also the matter of conforming, deflection, and bouncing, where knobs bending/moving, tires deforming, etc. absorb energy and are less responsive, where bouncing tires are more responsive, yet cannot offer control when not contacting the ground, and deflecting tires can be stressing to riders who do not anticipate it level-headedly. Theoretically, 30 psi in a 29x2.4 will have the same contact patch area as a 26x1.9 tire with 30 psi, though the shape of them will be different. They will feel vastly different though, as the 26x1.9 tire will feel squishy and the 29x2.4 will feel a bit hard. To get similar "feel", in terms of "squishiness/support" the smaller tire would need higher pressure and the bigger tire needs lower pressure.

Then comes the tubeless theories, which I'm not gonna address in this post, since I don't fully understand the mechanics behind. Here's an illustration from Syntace, promoting their new rims, including the W35, that Richard Cunningham has been interpreting, supporting the wide rim movement:



Cartoony illustrations such as this are usually biased to support the creator's view, so I can pretty much dismiss it. To me it looks like wide rim AND wider tire. They sure made the smaller tire/rim to look like the bad guy. :lol:
 
#3,135 ·
The fact that they're talking about "chinese carbon rims" makes me discount their opinion. It means that they are either consciously or subconsciously thinking in a bigoted and/or illogical manner. Specifically which brand or model of rims are they claiming are failing at a higher rate than which other brand or model of rims?

These are distinct companies that have no relation to each other. But some people appear only concerned with the nationality of the company's owners. These companies have names and if talking about products, lumping every Chinese owned company together is at best naive and at worst, bigoted.

Seriously folks, we should be talking about "Light-Bicycle" rims. When talking about ENVE rims do we say "Expensive American Carbon Rims"? The answer is no, because the specific company matters. It matters if the rims are ENVE, Easton, or sram. Similarly, the brand still matters when the company is owned by Chinese people.

I wish the mods would change the title of this thread. It is perpetuating this insanity.
 
#3,138 ·
The fact that they're talking about "chinese carbon rims" makes me discount their opinion. It means that they are either consciously or subconsciously thinking in a bigoted and/or illogical manner. Specifically which brand or model of rims are they claiming are failing at a higher rate than which other brand or model of rims?

These are distinct companies that have no relation to each other. But some people appear only concerned with the nationality of the company's owners. These companies have names and if talking about products, lumping every Chinese owned company together is at best naive and at worst, bigoted.

Seriously folks, we should be talking about "Light-Bicycle" rims. When talking about ENVE rims do we say "Expensive American Carbon Rims"? The answer is no, because the specific company matters. It matters if the rims are ENVE, Easton, or sram. Similarly, the brand still matters when the company is owned by Chinese people.

I wish the mods would change the title of this thread. It is perpetuating this insanity.
A lot of drama around you I'm guessing.
 
#3,201 ·
I'll probably get neg. Rep for asking this, but can people please stop arguing on this forum?!
if you want to argue with each other than just pm each other. All these arguments take up so much needless space on this forum (which is long enough already). Nobody wants to hear you bickering amongst yourselves.
I'm not taking sides on whether he should have asked or not but please stop wasting space on this forum. If you are getting upset at the guy for asking a question and wasting space, then stop arguing and wasting space.
 
#3,872 ·
ENVE 24 mm rims $850 each. LB 23 mm rims ~$200 each with freight. The ENVE rims weigh 440 grams. LB weight varies from 370 to 420 but gernerally around 395. Both are very strong and durable so both are "good enough" in that regard.

You can talk all you want about manufacturing processes, engineering, materials specifications, etc. etc. The fact is that LB is getting the job done in regards to all these attributes. Are the ENVE wheels better? Probably, but in the real world, the difference makes no difference because the LB wheels are fully functional and lighter and cheaper too.

Every product is a series of decisions. The ENVE wheels have molded spoke holes. That is an expensive decision. It makes ENVE have to have molds for every possible drilling and makes the molding process much more time consuming and costly. I would not be surprised that it alone, doubled the manufacturing cost of ENVE wheels. It makes the spoke holes stronger since the fibers run around the holes and are not drilled out weakening them. However, if you never have a spoke pull through problem on LB wheels, it is a needless expense. Since the LB wheels are rated at very high spoke tension (higher than most aluminum nipples would tolerate), then molded spoke holes is solving a problem that it is not really necessary to solve. The ENVE wheels would probably have better spoke pull through strength, but it is not necessary. Another decision seems to be to make the ENVE rims heavier. I think if you analyze the rims, you would find that the ENVE rims have a much stouter bead seat and would be much more resistant to cracking from rock hits. This has seemed to be the main failure mode for LB wheels. Since I don't go slamming rocks on downhills, this is not a concern to me. However, the guys that want to do that sort of riding, would probably not be a good market for the LB wheels. Those same guys would not be a candidate for Crest rims either and might be better served by Flows. I am an XC rider but I ride fast and have tacoed a Crest and blown a tire completely off a Crest even though I only weigh 170 and am old so I don't ride Crests anymore. I have never had an issue with my Flows or my LB rims.

For the type of riding that I do, I would always choose the LB wheels for the light weight and low cost and (so far) bullet-proofness, but for others, the ENVE would be a better fit. I am thinking that probably 80% of the people on here would be better served by the LB wheels and the other 20% really need the extra stoutness of the ENVE wheels.
 
#4,010 ·
Ride Report

Here's a quick report on my LB Rims… LOVE them! These rims are replacing Stan's 355s built up with DT Comps on AC hubs.

Order-
Ordered new process wider AM 29er 3K rims on 6/2. You still have to specify "New Process" if you want them done that way. I think they only have one mould for this, so that delays production by a few days.
Shipped: 6/15
Arrived: 6/26
I didn't spec the weight, leaving that to chance, and they included two rims of very different weight (380 and 407) Quite happy with that, because the heavy one went in the back, giving me a bit more piece of mind.

Build-
Built up with black DT Revolutions, alloy nips/AC hubs. 32@3X. meltingfeather resolved any doubts I had about that combo.

First wheel build. These rims are very forgiving. If I had it to do again, I might have waited to measure the ERD before ordering spokes, but I was too impulsive. So I worked off of their 603 spec. After I brought them to tension, some spokes extend beyond the nipples a healthy amount, but I don't think it will be an issue. Could detension and try again, but probably won't. Very light.

Setup-
Used Stan's wide yellow tape, got both tires set up for tubeless with a floor pump in about 30 minutes. (Rear needed a little dish soap on the bead.) Tires are old Rocket Rons 2.25.
Holds air better than the old combo, and the bead is much more secure- seems like burping wont be an issue.

Ride-
Wow, these wheels are fun! I need a smaller cassette now-its like gaining 2 gears. Climbing on the hardtail was already great, now its ridiculous. The wider profile of the tire is hugely confidence inspiring, and with the extra volume, I have to adjust how I gauge pressure- the squeeze test gives a different feel, but I've been lowering pressure with each ride, and it feels like its great now.

It takes a few rides to adjust to how precise the steering is on the front. I found myself oversteering. Thankfully, the wide footprint makes it easier to correct mistakes.

I was wondering at first if carbon rims would not make sense for a rigid bike. Then I used some science and common sense. There is no downside.

And qualitatively, I feel like the bike is "quieter." I can't really put my finger on it, but there it is. It's a quieter ride, less pinging off crap.

In short, I'm thrilled with these rims. Three rides so far and couldn't be happier. After the next few rides, I imagine I'll stop babying them. But I wouldn't think twice about doing it again. Props to first adopters and all who contributed to this massive thread!
 

Attachments

#43 ·
yep, the three just refer to how you want the rim to look. I've attached a photo showing the three patterns. 3k is a tight weave, 12k bigger weave, UD no weave. you can also get them with or without the glossy finish.

I happened to choose 12k matte finish. Plan to build them up with some Hope hubs.

@vwn8: glad to hear yours are running well!
 

Attachments

#351 ·
I did a quick set-up just to try them tubless (AM model). Put one row of cheap electrical tape, no sealant, the beads ramped up very well with a 2bliss tire (fasttrack control, 605g). I try maxxis beaver (non tubless and very loose) with no success. It will need real thick tape (i see gorilla) and a lot of soap to pop-up this tire!

The interior hole is too small for the stem, I will make it bigger with abrasif tool (not drill) and seal the fibers with epoxy system.

I will test the rim to compare radial stiffness. I'm going to put a weight radially and measure the deformation of the rim itself, not a complete wheel. I have few rim to test (roval, chinese AM, oem specialized 450sl and maybe I can have some stan's). It will not be a super scientific test but it will talk a bit I hope...
 
#768 ·
juansevo wrote:
I've seen the carnage of cheap carbon rims on many sub-wheel brands
Since there are so many and you have been blessed enough to actually see them all, can you name just a few for us - for the sake of public safety. Perhaps some links to photos would be good too. Just a few of the many you've personally seen will do.
 
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