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  1. #1551
    ballbuster
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    First ride, (and needs more spoke tension related question)

    Got my first ride on the Carbon rims last night. They felt great. I didn't feel as if the front end of my bike was wandering around the off camber rocky stuff, like I usually feel. It made the bike feel more point-and-shoot.

    I even managed to get my front aired up tubeless, and it held for a whole ride! That is a record for me! I might be able to run tubeless after all. During the ride, I was getting some seepage and minor bubbling around the bead. I don't know if that should be a big concern. Maybe I should invest in some Bontrager rim strips.

    My front wheel is the 29er AM carbon rim, Stan's yellow tape, Bontrager stem, 60g of Stan's Sealant (plus an extra little squirt), and a Werewolf LT 2.55, relatively new. I aired it up with one CO2 cartridge, then tire pump.

    So I had a bud bring over his Park spoke tension meter, but he forgot the chart that goes with it. My other wheels metered out to #20-#24 on the scale, but since i didn't have the chart, I have no idea how much kGf that comes out to be. My new carbon wheels were around the #16-#19 range. I'm using DT Swiss DB 14/15 ga spokes. I obviously need to up my tension a bit, I think. I didn't notice any nipple ticking sounds, or feel any flex, but I wanna get it right so the rims will last nearly forever with as little future adjustment as possible.

    Does anybody have an idea of what the proper tension for these wheels comes out to be on the Park meter scale?
    Last edited by pimpbot; 06-15-2012 at 11:19 AM.

  2. #1552
    Dirt Bike Craig
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    So do the wider rims have a max suggested rider weight? Also, are they durable enough for Arizona riding with lots of rocks and some aggressive downhills?
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  3. #1553
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMX_DBC View Post
    So do the wider rims have a max suggested rider weight? Also, are they durable enough for Arizona riding with lots of rocks and some aggressive downhills?
    I just looked it up. Official published weight limit is 95kg, or 209.4 pounds. They also say they can make them beefier on request for a higher weight limit.

    I was a bit worried about it myself, 'cause I run 207 pounds nekkid these days. My good bud Aosty points out I shouldn't worry, I ride like a puss anyway. He's not wrong.

    I'm trying to find out the spoke tension limit. It doesn't seem to be listed on this site. My apologies if it's been noted here before, but I'm too lazy to search.

  4. #1554
    Dirt Bike Craig
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    From what I read in this thread 120 is about the max spoke tension you want I believe. Like you I'm right about at the weight limit at 208-210lbs. I ride pretty aggressively so I might request them a little beefier. I have an email into them now regarding the weight limit
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  5. #1555
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    Around 120 seems good, I've built mine with 130kgf max, just because I'm using CX-rays and have good results with that tension on my alu rims as well. According to Nancy the max spoke tension of the rims is 180kgf, but I don't have the guts to get anywhere near that...

  6. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    According to Nancy 180kgf, I've build my set using sapim cxrays at 130kgf max.
    ^^^

  7. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    ...I aired it up with one CO2 cartridge, then tire pump.

    So I had a bud bring over his Park spoke tension meter, but he forgot the chart that goes with it. My other wheels metered out to #20-#24 on the scale, but since i didn't have the chart, I have no idea how much kGf that comes out to be. My new carbon wheels were around the #16-#19 range. I'm using DT Swiss DB 14/15 ga spokes. I obviously need to up my tension a bit, I think. I didn't notice any nipple ticking sounds, or feel any flex, but I wanna get it right so the rims will last nearly forever with as little future adjustment as possible.
    CO2 and latex does not play well. If you had sealant in the tire when you hit it with the CO2, it has caused rapid polymerization of the latex and the sealant will dry in short order. I always bead the tire first dry and then inject the sealant through the valve stem.

    For a 1.8mm spoke, 16=60kgf and 19=80kgf. You should be somewhere around 23=124kgf. I hope your spoke tension didn't vary 3 numbers on the gauge on the same side of the wheel.

  8. #1558
    ballbuster
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    Good to know...

    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    CO2 and latex does not play well. If you had sealant in the tire when you hit it with the CO2, it has caused rapid polymerization of the latex and the sealant will dry in short order. I always bead the tire first dry and then inject the sealant through the valve stem.

    For a 1.8mm spoke, 16=60kgf and 19=80kgf. You should be somewhere around 23=124kgf. I hope your spoke tension didn't vary 3 numbers on the gauge on the same side of the wheel.
    I always thought CO2 was pretty inert, like, it doesn't react with much that would be inside a tire.

    I'm getting the last few parts for my compressor today, so hopefully that won't be an issue in the future.

  9. #1559
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    CO2 doesn't affect the sealant, latex or otherwise...when you pump a tire up with a track/hand pump you are introducing CO2...hell, Hutchisons sealant is basically a CO2 cartridge and latex sealant in one
    Now an extreme cold shock from a cartridge directly into a bunch of sealant might have some affect, i dunno, and the cartridge air will be dryer, but I've used them as have countless others without issue

  10. #1560
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    Quote Originally Posted by clewttu View Post
    CO2 doesn't affect the sealant, latex or otherwise...when you pump a tire up with a track/hand pump you are introducing CO2...hell, Hutchisons sealant is basically a CO2 cartridge and latex sealant in one
    Now an extreme cold shock from a cartridge directly into a bunch of sealant might have some affect, i dunno, and the cartridge air will be dryer, but I've used them as have countless others without issue
    Uhmm, the concentration of CO2 in atmospheric air is a little different than a cartridge, which is . . . yep 100%. I only had to do it once and it turned the sealant into pudding. Plus, a chemist over in the homebrew thread explained why the CO2 causes the latex to polymerize. Not even going to try to regurgitate.

  11. #1561
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    I realize the concentrations are different, that's elementary. But if what you say is true, the reaction would still be taking place regardless.
    CO2 is essentially inert. If it had some reaction chemically with sealants, it would always have that chemical reaction. I have used it with no reaction whatsoever. I would guess what's happened to you is you shot a super dry and cold blast of air into a puddle of sealant in your tire, and that centralized area dehydrated rapidly and formed a gob of latex...similar to the scabs that form when the sealant dries out.

    Or show some info of this reaction, im def open to learning something new.

  12. #1562
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    Air is only .039% CO2, and concentration does matter. I'll let you do your own research.

  13. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by clewttu View Post
    I realize the concentrations are different, that's elementary. But if what you say is true, the reaction would still be taking place regardless.
    CO2 is essentially inert. If it had some reaction chemically with sealants, it would always have that chemical reaction. I have used it with no reaction whatsoever. I would guess what's happened to you is you shot a super dry and cold blast of air into a puddle of sealant in your tire, and that centralized area dehydrated rapidly and formed a gob of latex...similar to the scabs that form when the sealant dries out.

    Or show some info of this reaction, im def open to learning something new.
    Air also has oxygen ,but air is not flammable. Pure O2 is highly flammable and explosive. As ktm said, concentration does matter.
    Same idea with a CO2 can and the sealant.
    If you had no reaction, that's all good. Definitely not the norm, and actually kind of amazing. The bad reaction between a CO2 canister and tire sealant is well documented on this forum.

  14. #1564
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    that ratio doesnt have anything to do with the the scenario of discussion: using co2 cartridges with sealant
    no chemical reactions take place between co2 and latex, if it did, wouldnt there be a new substance and byproduct? what you have is latex still...polymerization is happening because of dehydration of the solvent, not because of the co2/latex, when the sealant dries out over a couple months time its "polymerization" as well...i dont doubt what you read, nor do i doubt that youve had issues, i just am doubting your interpretation that its because of co2 and latex not playing well
    i have done some research and have a moderate idea of what im talking about, not sure you do at all or you would explain it...hence the "ill let you do your own research" comment

    dont want to get in a pissing match, but I also dont want someone thats never set up a tubeless tire to read misinformation and shy away from a simple method of seating a stubborn tire in the absence of a compressor

  15. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    Air also has oxygen ,but air is not flammable. Pure O2 is highly flammable and explosive. As ktm said, concentration does matter.
    Same idea with a CO2 can and the sealant.
    If you had no reaction, that's all good. Definitely not the norm, and actually kind of amazing. The bad reaction between a CO2 canister and tire sealant is well documented on this forum.
    not really relevant, but, carbon dioxide is essentially an inert gas, oxygen is not, inert gases being nonreactive
    oxygen is flammable, be it pure or in the air, makes no difference...without it a match wouldnt light


    sorry about prolongoing that derail, im done, feel free to not use co2 charges by all means, and i will continue to as i always have without issue...should be discussing rims anyway
    Last edited by clewttu; 06-15-2012 at 06:23 PM.

  16. #1566
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    If you use the Bontrager strips you can seat a new tire with a sneeze into the valve. No need for a CO2 cartridge.

    But, with a beat up, worn out tire, the CO2 cartridge may be needed.

    Back to the rims. I have been riding at 21.99psi front and rear. A little afraid to go lower.160lbs riding buff, packed sand, with a little bit of rocks and roots.

    How do you know when you are too low? Rim strikes? I don't want to go there. Is there any parking lot test I can do?

    I use my palm to fully compress the tire and see how it feels but that is not very scientific.

  17. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by clewttu View Post
    not really relevant, but, carbon dioxide is essentially an inert gas, oxygen is not, inert gases being nonreactive
    oxygen is flammable, be it pure or in the air, makes no difference...without it a match wouldnt light

    My point was that the concentration of the gas greatly determines the reaction.
    Last edited by mucky; 06-15-2012 at 08:38 PM.

  18. #1568
    transmitter~receiver
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    Quote Originally Posted by clewttu View Post
    not really relevant, but, carbon dioxide is essentially an inert gas, oxygen is not, inert gases being nonreactive
    oxygen is flammable, be it pure or in the air, makes no difference...without it a match wouldnt light


    sorry about prolongoing that derail, im done, feel free to not use co2 charges by all means, and i will continue to as i always have without issue...should be discussing rims anyway
    CO2 will dissolve in the aqueous component of sealant proportional to it's concentration in the air inside the tire, forming carbonic acid which will drop the pH of the solution and promote coagulation of the latex.
    dissolution and dissociation in water is a reaction => not inert

    FYI
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  19. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post

    How do you know when you are too low? Rim strikes?
    I think that is basically it.
    I'm about your weight, and I run 23 psi F and 24 psi R on Crest rims. I think tire volume has a role in what pressure you can run, if I recall correctly. I've read people running 19-20 psi with a similar weight, 155-160, with success. I wouldn't go below 22 F or R, but that's me. I don't want to find out I'm too low by denting my rim.

  20. #1570
    bt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    If you use the Bontrager strips you can seat a new tire with a sneeze into the valve. No need for a CO2 cartridge.

    not always true

  21. #1571
    meh
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    CO2 will dissolve in the aqueous component of sealant proportional to it's concentration in the air inside the tire, forming carbonic acid which will drop the pH of the solution and promote coagulation of the latex.
    dissolution and dissociation in water is a reaction => not inert

    FYI
    thanks, this is what I was looking for

  22. #1572
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    Also FYI, oxygen is not flammable!

  23. #1573
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    Quote Originally Posted by giantdale View Post
    Also FYI, oxygen is not flammable!
    I stand corrected. Thanks

  24. #1574
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    As far as the bontrager rim strips vs stans rim tape.....

    I have used both and here are some of the details.

    - The stans rim tape is much lighter. I pulled it off and weighed it before putting on the bonty rim strips. Stans rim tape weighed 6g.
    Bonty rim strips weighed 42g and 46g.

    - I ride hard and have had my tire burp one time with the stans rim tape. I landed a jump on an off camber landing and the tire essentially folded off the rim causing me to crash. I'm not sure that would not have happened with the bonty rim strip but we will see.

    - As far as mounting the tire: They both aired up easily with an air compressor. With the rim tape I did not get much of the comforting pops that insure the tire is set into the bead properly. The rim strips pop loudly into place. I have to say that the rim strips seem more secure. Time will tell. As for now, I'm going to keep the tape on my rear wheel and a rim strip on the front.

  25. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonloc08 View Post
    As far as the bontrager rim strips vs stans rim tape.....

    I have used both and here are some of the details.

    - The stans rim tape is much lighter. I pulled it off and weighed it before putting on the bonty rim strips. Stans rim tape weighed 6g.
    Bonty rim strips weighed 42g and 46g.
    Stans tape at 6g AND the valve at 6.5gram. as well. Just saying.

    I'm running Stans tape on both F+R and having no issues wotso ever. And I'm running heavy at the moment as well. Need to lay off the pies

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