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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    That is a good question. Honestly, I do not know. You raise a good point. I was relying on Reynold's opinion that carbon rims can handle higher tensions. If I am not mistaken, that came from the interview on 29inches.com.
    light-bicycle told me max spoke tension is 180 kgf. To compare, most people I know build aluminum rims to 110-120 kgf. Stans says to only take theirs to about 95-100 kgf (and that's been raised, they used to say 85-90).

    I figure I'll build mine to 120-125 kgf and it should make for a nice stiff wheel, even with the low spoke count I ordered (28 hole)
    A ride a day keeps the therapist away.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    The AM 29r rim weighs around 440g. Tubeless is very good. We have a 28 hole rim here that I threw a Nobby Nic on to test without sealant. Blew up and held air no problem.
    I might build a set up with I9 Enduro wheels. That would be sick.
    Well, the 440g kind of sucks, since they advertise 400g +/- 10g.

    But the easy tubeless is good! I take it you just ran a layer of Stan's 25mm yellow tape?
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    light-bicycle told me max spoke tension is 180 kgf. To compare, most people I know build aluminum rims to 110-120 kgf. Stans says to only take theirs to about 95-100 kgf (and that's been raised, they used to say 85-90).
    All stan's did was change what used to be a range of max. tension to a fixed number. They didn't raise the max tension specs.
    180 kgf is ridiculous. i'd like to see someone try that... from behind a plexiglass shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I figure I'll build mine to 120-125 kgf and it should make for a nice stiff wheel, even with the low spoke count I ordered (28 hole)
    spoke tension does not affect stiffnes.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  4. #79
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    im thinking about a complete set with db881/882 hubs. $540 is a crazy price and those hubs seem pretty good.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    spoke tension does not affect stiffnes.
    Ok, then I'll build them to 25 kgf tension, and they'll be just as stiff.


    Spoke tension, of course, is not the end-all of building a stiff wheel, but it obviously plays a roll. I haven't had an issue with stiffness with my Arches, though I built them to 90 kgf. (Stan's recommendation at the time). But spoke tension does play a part in the stiffness of the wheel. Mainly, seeing as everything I've read about carbon rims is that they build into stiff wheels, and they should be decently stiff if built to normal or slightly higher spoke tension.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Indyfab, what's the kind of spoke tension you've used for the build? The range I got from light-bicycle.com was a tad hight.
    A reading of 20 on the DT Swiss tensiometer.

    I'm a bit new at the art of wheel building.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  7. #82
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    This thread is about to go to shite arguing about tension.

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  8. #83
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    Last thing I wanted to achieve with my question is to re-open the next 1000+ post fit on a spoke tension in general. I've read many of those on this board and I kind of understand what meltingfeather is saying with the spoke tension not affecting stiffness.

    The 180 kgf was what I heard from light-bikes as well and it feels high (if not ridiculous). What I was after is the kind of tension people have used to build the wheel without going to these ranges.

    I've build most of my alumium wheels (road/mtb) with 130 kgf for the drive side and NDS to get the correct dish, but on some hubs I've found the NDS to feel a bit under-tensioned. I've only build one wheel with stan's, a Arch29 and kept with the 100kgf, as it was a front wheel the difference in spoke tension between DS and NDS was a fair bit smaller.

    So, on these rims, what would be reasonable tension? If the recommended 180kfg is insane and 130kgf is what many aluminium rims can take, would it be safe to go higher on these?

  9. #84
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    internal bead width listed as 23mm for 29er rim, but no such spec listed for 26" rim. anyone know? (i know this is a 29er thread, just curious)
    Last edited by clarkalewis; 01-19-2012 at 03:15 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Ok, then I'll build them to 25 kgf tension, and they'll be just as stiff.
    They will... until spokes go slack from a rider sitting on the bike.
    Tension is where wheels get their strength (the load they can bear without spokes going slack), which is also a consideration, though a separate one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    But spoke tension does play a part in the stiffness of the wheel.
    No it does not. For that to be true, the elasticity of the spokes would have to change with tension. It does not.
    Spoke tension does change the feel of the wheel, possibly due to natural frequency, but it has no effect on stiffness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Mainly, seeing as everything I've read about carbon rims is that they build into stiff wheels, and they should be decently stiff if built to normal or slightly higher spoke tension.
    Carbon rims build into stiff wheels because the rims themselves are incredibly stiff. They will be stiff no matter the spoke tension you build them to or even the spoke gauge you choose. They can also handle higher tension than aluminum rims, but the "benefit" of cranking the tension stoopid high (i.e., 180 kgf, not saying you intended to do that, just using it as an example), has to be weighed against the negative impacts of extremely high and possibly critical stresses elsewhere in the wheel... like at the hub flanges and nipples.

    Thiese exchanges where you wing it and try to call people out that actually know something aren't going so well for you. surprise...

    Thanks for the neg rep, btw.

    figo & Admin_X, I ain't going there.
    I build carbon mtb rims to 115-120 kgf. There is no need or benefit to going any higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    A reading of 20 on the DT Swiss tensiometer.

    I'm a bit new at the art of wheel building.
    Do you mean the Park tensiometer? or 2.0mm on the DT Swiss meter?

    Also, the reading is meaningless without the spoke gauge in either case.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    They will... until spokes go slack from a rider sitting on the bike.
    Tension is where wheels get their strength (the load they can bear without spokes going slack), which is also a consideration, though a separate one.

    No it does not. For that to be true, the elasticity of the spokes would have to change with tension. It does not.
    Spoke tension does change the feel of the wheel, possibly due to natural frequency, but it has no effect on stiffness.

    Carbon rims build into stiff wheels because the rims themselves are incredibly stiff. They will be stiff no matter the spoke tension you build them to or even the spoke gauge you choose. They can also handle higher tension than aluminum rims, but the "benefit" of cranking the tension stoopid high (i.e., 180 kgf, not saying you intended to do that, just using it as an example), has to be weighed against the negative impacts of extremely high and possibly critical stresses elsewhere in the wheel... like at the hub flanges and nipples.

    Thiese exchanges where you wing it and try to call people out that actually know something aren't going so well for you. surprise...

    Thanks for the neg rep, btw.

    figo & Admin_X, I ain't going there.
    I build carbon mtb rims to 115-120 kgf. There is no need or benefit to going any higher.
    I dont know if we mean different things or what by stiffness, but i know if i build a wheel to only 25 kgf, ill have no trouble mking the wheel rub the stays whenn riding, but wont have that problem building them to normal tension. And no , i did not suggest they be built to some ridiculous tension, like 180 would be. I jsaid i would build them to a normal tension of 120.

    For the record, i did not neg rep you. I have never used the silly rep thing, pos or neg.
    A ride a day keeps the therapist away.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I dont know if we mean different things or what by stiffness, but i know if i build a wheel to only 25 kgf, ill have no trouble mking the wheel rub the stays whenn riding, but wont have that problem building them to normal tension.
    Once spokes go slack, all bets are off stiffness wise, and that's what would happen to a 25 kgf wheel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    And no , i did not suggest they be built to some ridiculous tension, like 180 would be. I jsaid i would build them to a normal tension of 120.
    We're on the same page in that regard, it just seemed like you were relating tension and wheel stiffness. Going from 100kgf to 120kgf will give you a stronger wheel, but not a stiffer one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    For the record, i did not neg rep you. I have never used the silly rep thing, pos or neg.
    consider that comment aimed at whoever did, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    This thread is about to go to shite arguing about tension.
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    We're on the same page in that regard, it just seemed like you were relating tension and wheel stiffness. Going from 100kgf to 120kgf will give you a stronger wheel, but not a stiffer one.
    I think our "argument" was kind of silly. In my original statement, I was responding to what tension should be used, and I mentioned I would use a normal to slightly high tension of 120-125 kgf. But I can see how you took it as relating tension and wheel stiffness. Which I was, and generally, I was wrong on that aspect.

    I went back and reread the book by Brandt and searched a couple other sites. I guess I had for some reason forgotten what I had previously learned and figured that if super-low tension would make for a super-flexy wheel, that higher tension would make it stiffer, at least to a degree. Not to mention that I have seen wheel manufacturers state that the high tensions they allow make for a stiffer wheel (Koolstof for one).

    I did find a site with various tests and theories that state that spoke tension does play a role in wheel stiffness. Great wheel test – Part 3 – Stiffness | Roues Artisanales Their data asserts that "high tensioned spokes...delay the moment when the wheel loses all its stiffness." If I'm understanding them correctly, they're saying that the higher tension doesn't necessarily add stiffness, just keeps it from losing stiffness under load (i.e., keeps the side being de-tensioned under load from going slack, causing the loss in stiffness).

    Brandt does recommend building wheels to just under the max tension the rim will take - but for wheel strength, not stiffness. But I'm not about to try to take a wheel up to 170+ kgf! Brandt does, though, state that spoke thickness plays a part in the stiffness of the wheel.

    I think, though, that we were more in agreement overall than not. 180kgf is too high to build a wheel, and normal tension in the 120 kgf range should be fine.
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.
    not only stiffness but how well it holds up to certain riding. silver should be fine for xc but make sure it is red (or even better, purple) for am riding.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.



    Nipple color is very relevant when accounting for stiffness.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Nipple color is very relevant when accounting for stiffness.
    Sweet! A dick joke! This thread has come full circle now

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkalewis View Post
    internal bead width listed as 23mm for 29er rim, but no such spec listed for 26" rim. anyone know? (i know this is a 29er thread, just curious)
    It looks like the narrower 29er rim, so if it is the same size, it would be just under 21mm. (the narrower 29er rim's specs as given to me list 20.81mm). But I would send an email to light-bicycle, they'll let you know for sure.
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Here is a pic of the rim bed and bead.
    I'm assuming that is the AM rim, correct?

    That rim hook/bead looks very UST-like. Any knowledge of what the lighter XC rim looks like, bead/hook wise?

  21. #96
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    Rim profiles

    In case anyone is interested, here is are the images of the rim profiles light-bicycle sent me

    Standard rim:
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Wider (AM) Rim:
    [IMG][/IMG]
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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'm assuming that is the AM rim, correct?

    That rim hook/bead looks very UST-like. Any knowledge of what the lighter XC rim looks like, bead/hook wise?
    It is what they call the AM rim. I do not know what the other rim bead looks like.
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  23. #98
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    subscribed=)

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    In case anyone is interested, here is are the images of the rim profiles light-bicycle sent me
    Ah. The "XC" rims definitely do not appear to have a "UST" profile.

    The "AM" rims do, though.

    Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ah. The "XC" rims definitely do not appear to have a "UST" profile.

    The "AM" rims do, though.

    Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.
    Since the weight difference is so small (at least, if the come in close to their claimed weights), it seemed a no brainer to go with the AM rims. Fat tires will work better with the wider rims. But should be easy enough to do a stan's conversion to tubeless on the xc rim.
    A ride a day keeps the therapist away.

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