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  1. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Short answer, because I can ;-). Longer answer is that I have good experiences with CX-rays,
    that's the best reason I've heard.
    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    haven't used the lasers but I understood their fatigue life is shorter than the CX-rays. I build and repair my own wheels but like to spend as little time doing the wrenching as possible, so any broken spoke due to fatigue is expensive time for me, so the few euros extra on a build is marginal compared to the hours I spend on building/maintaining the wheels.
    i've not seen anything to support this fatigue life comparison... except for the cartoon figure from the company that markets and sells the "Indy car" of spokes.
    it is not even close to as simple as "a few extra euros" translating into "hours [saved] building/maintaining the wheels." if only it were...
    from where I sit the premium is over USD$100 to get Rays/Aerolites over Lasers/Revos.
    here's another consideration: the forging process makes the steel in cx-rays more brittle and they have much larger surface area, so they are more likely to sustain impacts and more susceptible to impacts when they do get hit, that is, if you wanted some more theory to factor into your equation.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  2. #652
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    I would love to see some of this theory in practice, how hard can it be to test the whole range on spokes on the market on flexibility, impact resistance, fatigue resistance, etc.

    Considering the cost of rims and hubs I don't think spokes are too much of a factor when building a high end wheel. And so far, I have had quite a few DT DB spokes fail on my, especially on the rear wheel where as the only broken CX-rays I've had involved major things like another rider's bar getting stuck in the wheel and still only taking out 1 spoke, so I can't say I've had a problem with it's brittleness.

  3. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    I would love to see some of this theory in practice, how hard can it be to test the whole range on spokes on the market on flexibility, impact resistance, fatigue resistance, etc.
    Likely more difficult than you are imagining. All of those processes are stochastic, meaning you need extremely LARGE sample sizes to determine averages that have high standard deviations.
    Plus the work on steel has been done and published for a long time... most people on forums just don't want to spend the time to get informed enough (if they aren't already) to understand or talk knowledgeably it. They hear & see marketing that CX Rays are "stronger" than other spokes but don't understand what that means (a deliberate product of the marketing). That's why cartoon "test" figures work. Another complicating factor added by the wide scatter in data is that just because an average says something is more likely to happen doesn't mean it plays out that way in practice every time, so there are people with experiences that fall outside of those favored by probability.
    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Considering the cost of rims and hubs I don't think spokes are too much of a factor when building a high end wheel. And so far, I have had quite a few DT DB spokes fail on my, especially on the rear wheel where as the only broken CX-rays I've had involved major things like another rider's bar getting stuck in the wheel and still only taking out 1 spoke, so I can't say I've had a problem with it's brittleness.
    If they offer no benefit, then what is there to "factor" in for the added expense?
    If you've had luck with Rays, by all means keep using them, but your experience doesn't change the basic facts of the properties of steel. I've seen a particularly high number of failures of SuperComps at the nipple, but they work fine for plenty of people. Experiences, which are all any single person has to talk from, usually represent statistically laughable sample sizes and therefore are pretty worthless in establishing anything conclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  4. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    If they offer no benefit, then what is there to "factor" in for the added expense?
    If you've had luck with Rays, by all means keep using them, but your experience doesn't change the basic facts of the properties of steel. I've seen a particularly high number of failures of SuperComps at the nipple, but they work fine for plenty of people. Experiences, which are all any single person has to talk from, usually represent statistically laughable sample sizes and therefore are pretty worthless in establishing anything conclusive.
    Fair enough, I don't have the sample in range nor in volume. Any tips for alternatives for the CX-rays for building a weight conscious wheel with these carbon rims? Spokes need to be straight pull as I have an SP hub which kind of limits the options I guess.

  5. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Sorry, would you have been happier if I had said "mass moment"?? I'm missing your point.
    it's not what you call it, it's the fundamental issue, which is that weight distribution in a wheel (within the bounds of commercially avaialable prducts) has very little if any effect on overall perfomance, either in theory (calculated) or in practice (measured).
    the physics-light banter that is freely tossed around in cycling forums gets far more attention than the difference the phenomena actually make or don't make in performance.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 03-05-2012 at 12:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  6. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Fair enough, I don't have the sample in range nor in volume. Any tips for alternatives for the CX-rays for building a weight conscious wheel with these carbon rims? Spokes need to be straight pull as I have an SP hub which kind of limits the options I guess.
    The round steel counterparts offer the same performance at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure of availability in straight pull, but comparable to a CX Ray would be: Sapim Laser, DT Swiss Revolution, or Wheelsmith XL14.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  7. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    it's not what you call it, it's the fundamental issue, which is that weight distribution in a wheel (within the bounds of commercially avaialable prducts) has very little if any effect on overall perfomance, either in theory (calculated) or in practice (measured).
    Roger that, and couldn't agree more

  8. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbem View Post
    This

    21 or23
    Last edited by bt; 03-05-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  9. #659
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    Slightly off-topic of the rims but....Any advantage doing something like Revo NDS and Comp or Supercomp DS? A well know wheelbuilder built me a set of wheels this way. His opinion was it made the rear wheel more responsive when accelerating.

  10. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockinrod42 View Post
    Slightly off-topic of the rims but....Any advantage doing something like Revo NDS and Comp or Supercomp DS? A well know wheelbuilder built me a set of wheels this way. His opinion was it made the rear wheel more responsive when accelerating.
    the advantage is extra weight over just using Revos all around, which helps keep that momentum through the tech.

    "more responsive when accelerating" is blowing smoke. full of crap, but that doesn't mean he's not a great wheelbuilder. some of my favorite people are full fo crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  11. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snugglesthemonkey View Post
    If I go visit the factory I might have to pick up a set of rims! Why the wider ones over the regular?
    I'd be surprised if you could get anything from the factory, as their license is likely to be export-only, which means everything they make has to be sold outside of China proper. You might want to look for a white van.

    Similarly, I'd be surprised if they let you in the factory, and even more so if they let you take photos. I visit a lot of factories in China, representing a company that spends billions of dollars in China, and they won't let me take photos of their actual production lines.

  12. #662
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    Just received mine at 385g each. Yeah!
    mat g

  13. #663
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    Light biycyle lead time

    I'm getting anxious to build up these rims- for those of you that have received the 29 AM carbon rims from Light bicycle within the last few weeks, How long did you have to wait?

  14. #664
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    Ordered and paid on the 19th of Feb, shipped the 24th of Feb, arrived the 29th of Feb.

    Ordered 12k matte, wide 29er with some extra beef for my 110kg lard can. I accepted 3k matte as they ran out of the 12K matte and getting more of that weave would have delayed a few days. I took the 3K as they had a set ready to go. All of the finishes look decent in their own way, IMHO.
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  15. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogprint View Post
    Ordered and paid on the 19th of Feb., shipped the 24th of Feb. arrived the 29th of Feb.
    Nice! We need MORE build reviews

    I'm itching to order the new 26" AM rims, but they aren't ready yet!

    I'm hoping to see lots of glowing reviews before I buy

  16. #666
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    spoke question

    would you recommend revos for a guy about 190 on a FS? i was thinking maybe they would be too flexy. supercomps be any better in your opinion?


    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    the advantage is extra weight over just using Revos all around, which helps keep that momentum through the tech.

    "more responsive when accelerating" is blowing smoke. full of crap, but that doesn't mean he's not a great wheelbuilder. some of my favorite people are full fo crap.
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  17. #667
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    I ordered a set of the wide 29er rims in UD gloss, 32 hole. Going to lace them up with DT comps, alloy nips on some silver Hope Pro II EVO hubs (SS trials rear hub). Cannot wait! I ordered this morning.

  18. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Slo4U View Post
    There is a thread over on rbr.com about someone visiting one of these factories over in china. On my handheld or I would post the link. If I recall correctly, they were very inviting to the visitors and they posted pictures of their visit
    Indeed. I remember reading the thread on RBR about a year ago. Lots of pictures and the people were very inviting.

    The factory also looked very professional.

  19. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucker61 View Post
    I'd be surprised if you could get anything from the factory, as their license is likely to be export-only, which means everything they make has to be sold outside of China proper. You might want to look for a white van.

    Similarly, I'd be surprised if they let you in the factory, and even more so if they let you take photos. I visit a lot of factories in China, representing a company that spends billions of dollars in China, and they won't let me take photos of their actual production lines.
    There is a thread over on rbr.com about someone visiting one of these factories over in china. On my handheld or I would post the link. If I recall correctly, they were very inviting to the visitors and they posted pictures of their visit

  20. #670
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    Availability

    It seems that the current batch of wider 29er rims will ship 3/18.

  21. #671
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    hey all... just got mine earlier this week. damn if they don't look *exactly* like my carbon rovals. i had to use calipers just to tell that they were in fact 2mm wider on the outside diameter... for all those that were bummed that they had to drill/dremel out the valve hole, i fitted a spare roval stem in there with no problems. maybe they are drilling the hole wider now??

    anyways, what is everyone running for spoke tension on these? gonna lace these up to DT 240's using Revo's and just getting an idea what everybody is doing.

    thanks.. -Smoove.

  22. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoove_ride View Post
    hey all... just got mine earlier this week. damn if they don't look *exactly* like my carbon rovals. i had to use calipers just to tell that they were in fact 2mm wider on the outside diameter... for all those that were bummed that they had to drill/dremel out the valve hole, i fitted a spare roval stem in there with no problems. maybe they are drilling the hole wider now??

    anyways, what is everyone running for spoke tension on these? gonna lace these up to DT 240's using Revo's and just getting an idea what everybody is doing.

    thanks.. -Smoove.
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  23. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Barely. Also, you spending a lot of time going 30mph on your MTB?
    barely would apply to a road bike on 23s. i doubt you'd see any effect with a 50(+)mm knobby tearing up the air around the wheel.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  24. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by bquinn View Post
    Since my local trails aren't rideable I took the bike for a road spin the other day and went off numerous 3ft drops (off steps) and down a flight of ~25 stairs. So far so good on the rims. They feel so stiff and light as can be climbing!
    What length of spokes did you use with your American Classic hubs?

  25. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snugglesthemonkey View Post
    I can't wait to see if that is really her. I am a little suspicious of those company pictures. They might be stock photos from the internet.
    If you go you should check out their engineering department, quality control, and testing. Maybe take pictures of their testing equipment, the software they use and their QC methods.

  26. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonloc08 View Post
    What length of spokes did you use with your American Classic hubs?
    No clue, that's why I paid a wheel builder, sorry for the lack of info
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  27. #677
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    Has anyone put any ride time on these wheels yet?

  28. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by D93 View Post
    Has anyone put any ride time on these wheels yet?
    Not me, it's winter here in Canada!

    I have an issue with one of my rims. The hook that hold the tire is badly shaped on 2 inch long area

    Nancy want pictures of this.

    We will see if services departement are great or not!
    mat g

  29. #679
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    It seems that the current batch of wider 29er rims will ship 3/18.
    Where did you get that information ? Direct from Nancy Yu ?

    (I ordered a set of rims March 5th, but didn't get any delivery info).

  30. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by D93 View Post
    Has anyone put any ride time on these wheels yet?
    Yes, read the thread. I have ~15hrs on my set currently.

  31. #681
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    My rim has been made and the wheel is getting put together today (tonight, last night? the time difference is confusing!)

    She reports the weight at 406 and 410 grams for the rims. These are the wider rims. 30mm I believe.

  32. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Yes, read the thread. I have ~15hrs on my set currently.
    Overall impression of the rims so far? Ride quality, stiffness, weight, etc...

  33. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Yes, read the thread. I have ~15hrs on my set currently.
    Why not share your experience? With 15 hours you probably have as much time as anyone on the rims. Have you developed an opinion? How do they compare to the alloy rims you've had in the past?

  34. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    I finally got Ikon EXO's mounted on my AM rims early this week. I used 25mm yellow tape and Stans valve stems. Tires beaded instantly with the first shot of compressed air and stayed beaded once pressure was released. As usual, tires had been sitting folded inside-out. I always mount the tires dry and then inject sealant through the valve stem after they have successfully beaded. No surprises here, bead sealed right up. Though, the bead seat isn't as tight as a Stans rim, but that has already been established.

    Got in a ride on my rigid ss with the air pressure set the same as I would run on my P35 rims (18F/26R, 165lb). Again, no surprises, everything worked as expected, no noticeable tire squirm. I even hit a log pile harder than I should have and it more than likely collapsed the tire. No spooge or marks on the rim.

    These rims are 200g lighter than a P35, so reduced rotating mass was noticeable, but I can't honestly say that I could "feel" any difference in stiffness.
    bump, for those that skimmed

  35. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by D93 View Post
    Why not share your experience? With 15 hours you probably have as much time as anyone on the rims. Have you developed an opinion? How do they compare to the alloy rims you've had in the past?
    Because my opinion hasn't changed since my last post

    The true test for me is a back to back test (same day, same trail) versus Crest rims, which I haven't done yet. The only other thing to report is that I have been able to run lower pressures than with the Crest without tire squirm on the rear, but I'm pretty sure I already posted that

  36. #686
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    KTM good to hear they are at least as stiff as your P35 wheels. At first I thought you meant 200g less for both rims but I looked at the P35's and they are up around 600g each. They are probably pretty stiff rims.
    I'm betting the bead hook on the chinese rims are also good for opening a can of whoop-ass for the Crest's farewell dinner.

  37. #687
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    Yeah - Nancy told me in an email that the rims would ship 3/18.

  38. #688
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    I like to use the Aerolite/C X-Ray spokes when I build to higher tension because it is easy to control spoke twist with the tool that holds the bladed spoke. If I build some of these carbon rims, I will use a good bit of spoke tension. The Revos would probably get a lot of windup at 120 Kgf.

  39. #689
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    Question for mat g:

    Quote Originally Posted by mat g View Post
    Not me, it's winter here in Canada!

    I have an issue with one of my rims. The hook that hold the tire is badly shaped on 2 inch long area

    Nancy want pictures of this.

    We will see if services departement are great or not!
    If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to get these rims into Canada? Any extra duty charged? Thanks.

  40. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by starbux View Post
    If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to get these rims into Canada? Any extra duty charged? Thanks.
    30$ per rim for 2 rims.
    No extra duty this time.
    mat g

  41. #691
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    Thanks mat. So CBSA charged you HST only. Maybe there's no duty on CF products from China!?! I've been heavily dinged in the past for soft goods (clothing) manuf'd in China. Good to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starbux View Post
    Thanks mat. So CBSA charged you HST only. Maybe there's no duty on CF products from China!?! I've been heavily dinged in the past for soft goods (clothing) manuf'd in China. Good to know.
    In clothing that can be made in Canada, probably an extra-taxes is applied. On CF stuff..., canada is not known as a cf specialist! But Light-bicycle put a 80$ value on my package, it could help a lot!

    Concerning my issue on my last rim, light-bicycle will send me a new rim!!!! Great!
    mat g

  43. #693
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    Anyone on this thread have any first hand experience with failed CF rims? I've used CF handle bars for years, and I've now got a CF frame, but I've never ridden CF rims and I'm very tempted by these Chinese ones. I've tacoed alloy rims, and worn them out so that they've split apart between the spokes in several places (still rideable though), and seen lots of cracks around spoke holes. Nothing lasts forever and I'm sure CF will wear out over time, but how do CF rims fail - do they crack and split but remain somewhat rideable, or do they catastrophically explode into a million little pieces sending the rider tumbling into the abyss. I've seen the PinkBike/Santa Cruz frame-bashing video, but are carbon rims more durable than alloy ones like the frames appear to be?

  44. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnapmaster View Post
    I like to use the Aerolite/C X-Ray spokes when I build to higher tension because it is easy to control spoke twist with the tool that holds the bladed spoke. If I build some of these carbon rims, I will use a good bit of spoke tension. The Revos would probably get a lot of windup at 120 Kgf.
    It's interesting how many people build with thin spokes and haven't figured out how to deal with windup. With thin spokes before I tension a wheel I put a small dab of paint/ink on the spoke just above the nipple so I can tell if it's winding up. It's just a matter of turning the nipple quick or over rotating a bit to get the spoke to move without the nipple.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  45. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    It's interesting how many people build with thin spokes and haven't figured out how to deal with windup. With thin spokes before I tension a wheel I put a small dab of paint/ink on the spoke just above the nipple so I can tell if it's winding up. It's just a matter of turning the nipple quick or over rotating a bit to get the spoke to move without the nipple.
    I just hold them so I can feel and resist the windup.
    I also don't see a reason to build carbon rims to super high tension just because they can take it. There is no upside and the downside is increased stresses in the other parts of the wheel. With 32 spokes, 110kgf is strong enough for almost any application.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  46. #696
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    I have been following this thread with great interest. I am very tempted by the AM rims and thinking seriously about pulling the trigger.

    Being a fan of undrilled rim beds, I asked Nancy whether it would be possible to have a pair of AM rims manufactured without rim bed holes. She replied "Yes" there would be a 15 day lead time though.

    I plan to borrow the idea behind Fulcrum's MoMag technology and improvise a nipple seating process via magnets.

    I guess the main risk would be not having space in the rim cavity to turn the nipples around into position. I would be interested in the collective experience of the forum as to the wisdom of this plan.

  47. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by starbux View Post
    Anyone on this thread have any first hand experience with failed CF rims? I've used CF handle bars for years, and I've now got a CF frame, but I've never ridden CF rims and I'm very tempted by these Chinese ones. I've tacoed alloy rims, and worn them out so that they've split apart between the spokes in several places (still rideable though), and seen lots of cracks around spoke holes. Nothing lasts forever and I'm sure CF will wear out over time, but how do CF rims fail - do they crack and split but remain somewhat rideable, or do they catastrophically explode into a million little pieces sending the rider tumbling into the abyss. I've seen the PinkBike/Santa Cruz frame-bashing video, but are carbon rims more durable than alloy ones like the frames appear to be?
    There are a few pictures of broken Specialized Roval Control 29 carbon rims here to give an idea of what a failed carbon wheel looks like:

    Roval Control SL 29 Wheels

    Carbon mountain bike rims seem to be quite strong so long as you don't hit them on something or overinflate the tyres.

  48. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.b View Post
    I have been following this thread with great interest. I am very tempted by the AM rims and thinking seriously about pulling the trigger.

    Being a fan of undrilled rim beds, I asked Nancy whether it would be possible to have a pair of AM rims manufactured without rim bed holes. She replied "Yes" there would be a 15 day lead time though.

    I plan to borrow the idea behind Fulcrum's MoMag technology and improvise a nipple seating process via magnets.

    I guess the main risk would be not having space in the rim cavity to turn the nipples around into position. I would be interested in the collective experience of the forum as to the wisdom of this plan.
    The cavity in my rims is about 8mm.
    mat g

  49. #699
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    I ordered my rims on Feb. 20th and got this email

    The rims will be shipped on March 10th. Because there are a lots of 29er rims orders. And we have only one mold to manufacture. The production line is too busy to finish them in 7days this month. It will be better next month.

    Is that ok?

    Thanks,
    Nancy


    I got a tracking number this morning and they are on the way. Nancy also told me they take about 4 days to ship to the US. I thought is was very nice of them to tell me about the exta time. Many companies would just let you waite so you did not cancel the order.

    I will not be able to weigh the rims as I am having them shipped directly to Industry Nine and they said they would check them out and if the quality did not look good they would contact me.

    I will post a detailed ride report when Niner gets me my frame hopefully in April.
    Are you a road biker that likes hills? Try this Michigan Mountain Mayhem.

  50. #700
    Ballstein Models
    Reputation: hogprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    344
    well the front sure built up nicely.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-photo-1-1.jpg  

    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-photo-2-1.jpg  

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