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  1. #3276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Put the two side by side and rotate them thru at least 90 degrees to see how flat they are

    Are these fab'd w/ the new process?
    Yes, these were made with the new process.

    I put them on our kitchen island counter, which I know is level. One is perfectly flat, the other has a small <16th" fluctuation.

  2. #3277
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceharrier View Post
    Ordered these from light-bicycle.com 22nd January, USPS tried delivering them February 5th, actually got them on the 6th. Very good communication from Brian.

    • "Wider" 29" rim on new early 2013 mold/process
    • Novatec D711/D712 hubs
    • 32 spoke
    • Alloy nipples
    • No decals

    Without tape, skewers etc. weights come in at 696g front and 840g rear. Seem nice and true, quick ping test suggests pretty even spoke tension. I'll be running these with tubes.
    So one minor initial concern: these are an absolute bastard to get tires onto. In fact, I haven't successfully managed to get my tires on (Small Block 8 rear, Ignitor front). Bent one Park tire lever getting the Ignitor on only to have pinched the tube, and wasn't able to get the SB8 all the way on -- and that's a tire that's mountable without levers on my old rims.

    Definitely the hardest to mount rims I've owned. Any tips for things that aren't likely to damage the carbon?

    EDIT: The problem here was my technique. Once I followed the method suggested below (post #3280) the tires went on just fine.
    Last edited by spaceharrier; 02-09-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  3. #3278
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    Hmmm... mine weren't a problem. They were snug, but not any harder than any of my other rims. I'm running a Bontrater Jones XR1 on the rear (the square blocky one) and a WTB Werewolf LT 2.55. My Werewolf wouldn't seal up tubeless with Stan's tape alone reliably, but the Jones sealed up with a Bontrager rim strip, and it was snug, but not so snug I couldn't do it by hand.

    My Bontrager Mustang 29er rim brake rims are a total bastard to get the tires on.

    Quote Originally Posted by spaceharrier View Post
    So one minor initial concern: these are an absolute bastard to get tires onto. In fact, I haven't successfully managed to get my tires on (Small Block 8 rear, Ignitor front). Bent one Park tire lever getting the Ignitor on only to have pinched the tube, and wasn't able to get the SB8 all the way on -- and that's a tire that's mountable without levers on my old rims.

    Definitely the hardest to mount rims I've owned. Any tips for things that aren't likely to damage the carbon?

  4. #3279
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    Quote Originally Posted by botanicbiker View Post
    Yes, these were made with the new process.
    Any issue w/ getting tires on your? Seems someone else is having some problems getting tires on some rims that he received recently.
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  5. #3280
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    Hate to tell you but it is probably your technique. Put the tire inside the rim with bead on both sides of the rim. Start away from the valve on one side and work the bead on in both directions until you get to the valve area. While using your thumb, pull the bead tight as though you are trying to pull the last bit over and on. While doing this take the other hand and run it around the rim pushing the bead into the center of the rim. As you do this the thumb should be taking up the new slack you are making. Now that the bead is in the channel, use both thumbs to put the last bit over the rim edge. Do the same procedure with the other side. This side will be harder because you will really have to push to get the bead down in the channel since the other bead is already there and you will have to push it out of the way to some extent.
    I showed a guy that had been a mountain biker for 10 years and done many tires this technique and he was shocked at how much easier it was than what he had been doing. These rims with tape are easy to get the tires on. With Bontrager rim strips they are moderately hard, but no where near the hardest.
    Full rigid SS, Hardtail SS, Hardtail Geared, Full Suspension Geared.

  6. #3281
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
    Hate to tell you but it is probably your technique. Put the tire inside the rim with bead on both sides of the rim. Start away from the valve on one side and work the bead on in both directions until you get to the valve area. While using your thumb, pull the bead tight as though you are trying to pull the last bit over and on. While doing this take the other hand and run it around the rim pushing the bead into the center of the rim. As you do this the thumb should be taking up the new slack you are making. Now that the bead is in the channel, use both thumbs to put the last bit over the rim edge. Do the same procedure with the other side. This side will be harder because you will really have to push to get the bead down in the channel since the other bead is already there and you will have to push it out of the way to some extent.
    I showed a guy that had been a mountain biker for 10 years and done many tires this technique and he was shocked at how much easier it was than what he had been doing. These rims with tape are easy to get the tires on. With Bontrager rim strips they are moderately hard, but no where near the hardest.
    Actually I'm certainly hoping it's my technique. I'll give what you describe a go.

  7. #3282
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    Re: (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

    The other thought to consider is that your wheels were under-tensioned when they were built. I think I remember other people that bought the rims built up by the factory reporting that the tension was too low.
    I built up and tensioned my rims myself and noticed the tension went down once I mounted and inflated the tires. So, although they are very stiff laterally, they do have vertical compliance (which is nice for the ride). Increasing the tension on an under-tensioned wheel would make it smaller in diameter and easier to put on a tire. By how much, I honestly don't know. And I'm not advocating increasing the tension just for that reason, but am thinking that if you are having so much trouble putting on a tire it may be worth at least confirming proper spoke tension.


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  8. #3283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Any issue w/ getting tires on your? Seems someone else is having some problems getting tires on some rims that he received recently.
    Just mounted up a Racing Ralph (2.25) and a Nobbie Nic (2.35) easily and without a tire lever.

  9. #3284
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    I built up the rear and it built up really nicely and was very easy to get true. High tension was really easy to get, but I am a little concerned I built it with higher than optimal tension. By the time I checked it and had it done, the drive side was at 148. I know they specify 180 as the limit in tension, but 148 is higher than I have ever built a wheel with. Is there any downside to leaving it that high?

  10. #3285
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    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    I built up the rear and it built up really nicely and was very easy to get true. High tension was really easy to get, but I am a little concerned I built it with higher than optimal tension. By the time I checked it and had it done, the drive side was at 148. I know they specify 180 as the limit in tension, but 148 is higher than I have ever built a wheel with. Is there any downside to leaving it that high?
    Wow. 32 spoke 3x?

    What hubs, spokes and nipples? Any spoke prep?

  11. #3286
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    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    I know they specify 180 as the limit in tension, but 148 is higher than I have ever built a wheel with. Is there any downside to leaving it that high?
    Yes. You've put unnecessarily high stress on the other components of the wheel.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  12. #3287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    Wow. 32 spoke 3x?

    What hubs, spokes and nipples? Any spoke prep?
    Hadleys with Sapim double butted (2.0/1.8) spokes and aluminum nipples. I used Never Seize on the threads and light oil in the spoke holes, like I usually do. 3x.
    Last edited by Haymarket; 02-08-2013 at 02:30 PM.

  13. #3288
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Yes. You've put unnecessarily high stress on the other components of the wheel.
    I also built my rear wheel with the same tension as Haymarket with similar setup (32 1.5 mm Pillar round spokes, 3x, Al nipples, DT Swiss 240S hubs).

    So, what is the highest tension you recommend? .

  14. #3289
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    It would be best to use normal tension with these rims. For one thing, there is no advantage to the higher tension. It won't make a noticeably stiffer wheel. In fact, wheel stiffness has almost nothing to do with tension as long as the spokes aren't loose. Also, there is the possibility of ripping the hub flange apart. I've personally witnessed that 3 times in my life. Ive also seen spokes ripped out of nipples and nipples pulled through rims. I can't say for sure that these failures happened due to too high of tension, but why take the chance? There really isn't a benefit to running higher tension.

  15. #3290
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    For one thing, there is no advantage to the higher tension.
    The only advantage is the wheels propensity to stay true but this is associated to equal tension just as much as high tension (IMHO).

    The rims design for high tension is based on lower spoke 2x configurations. Think Mavic Crossmax hubs, straight pull, 24 count.

  16. #3291
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
    It would be best to use normal tension with these rims. For one thing, there is no advantage to the higher tension. It won't make a noticeably stiffer wheel. In fact, wheel stiffness has almost nothing to do with tension as long as the spokes aren't loose. Also, there is the possibility of ripping the hub flange apart. I've personally witnessed that 3 times in my life. Ive also seen spokes ripped out of nipples and nipples pulled through rims. I can't say for sure that these failures happened due to too high of tension, but why take the chance? There really isn't a benefit to running higher tension.
    So, how much would "normal" be on the drive side with my setup?

    Jobst Brandt does not specify much about specific figures in his book and uses the tone to tune the wheel. Also Roger Musson claims that he does not use tensiometers and build his wheels from the tone, but he actually once mention a specific figure, 130 kgf, in his long text, "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" 5th Ed. page 60 : "The lowest tensioned wheels I build use lightweight ZTR rims with a recommended tension of 95 kg (930 N) and all other rims I build are 130 kg (1250 N) and each wheel perform fine". I assume 130 kgf is the average spoke tension i.e. average of left and right side. The rear wheel drive side will have much more (almost double) tension compared to the non-drive side to be correctly dished and with the Haymarket's 148 (kgf) on the drive side the average spoke tension will be well below 130 kgf. Or, have I misunderstood, is the spoke tension Roger (and Light Bicycle) talk about, the maximum spoke tension on any side of the wheel and not the average? This is a huge difference when we are talking about the rear wheel.

  17. #3292
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    The rims are rated for very high tension, but that is not the only consideration. The hubs are also rated and I would bet at a somewhat lower tension and the spokes are also rated although they probably are almost as high as the rims. That said, you need to find the rating for your hubs and let that be your guide. If you can't find that, I generally shoot for 20 on the Park guage on the "tight" side. I generally end up with the highest readings around 18-20 and the other side will generally end up around 10-16 depending on the offset, flange height , etc. The most likely problem with building too high tension is the flange breaking.
    Full rigid SS, Hardtail SS, Hardtail Geared, Full Suspension Geared.

  18. #3293
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
    The rims are rated for very high tension, but that is not the only consideration. The hubs are also rated and I would bet at a somewhat lower tension and the spokes are also rated although they probably are almost as high as the rims. That said, you need to find the rating for your hubs and let that be your guide. If you can't find that, I generally shoot for 20 on the Park guage on the "tight" side. I generally end up with the highest readings around 18-20 and the other side will generally end up around 10-16 depending on the offset, flange height , etc. The most likely problem with building too high tension is the flange breaking.
    I have sapim double butted (is it byooted or butt-ed?) and have about 24 on the drive side and 18 on the non drive side.

  19. #3294
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    Regarding some hubs having a recommended max tension, as an example, here's an excerpt out of the Chris King hub manual:

    Wheel building
    [...] Disc brake wheels must be laced using a 3-or-more-cross lacing pattern. As the
    torque generated by driving the cassette requires crossed spokes, so does the
    additional torque on the non-drive side flange generated by the braking action.
    Radial lacing your ISO hubs is considered outside of the intended use and will void
    your warranty. [...]
    The front ISO should be laced 3-or-more-cross with the rotor (left) side pulling spokes
    (relative to braking direction) heads out/elbows in (when laced 3-cross). The final
    cross of the pulling spoke must be on the outside so that, as braking force is applied,
    increased pulling spoke tension will pull the crossed spokes towards the center of
    the hub and away from the caliper. Lace the wheel symmetrically.
    The spoke tension on each side of the wheel should be as uniform as possible.
    Tension should not exceed 120kgf (1200N).
    Proper wheel building technique is essential in creating a strong wheel. Wheel
    building is a skill that requires proper training and specialized tools and should be done
    by a trained professional.
    Except from another part of the CK site:

    In rare cases, when the wheel has been built at very high tension, the large drive side bearing can become loose and cause creaking.

  20. #3295
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    Re: (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

    Mark, for later reading.

  21. #3296
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    Note that a max tensile force rating of the rim for spokes is not the same as the advisable spoke tension when building the wheel.
    A "normal" spoke tension is about 110 kgf for the rear drive side and left front (when using disc hubs). Going (much) higher should not be needed (unloaded spokes during use will not detension completely) and will not make a stiffer wheel (this has been discussed at length on this forum).
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  22. #3297
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
    Hate to tell you but it is probably your technique. Put the tire inside the rim with bead on both sides of the rim. Start away from the valve on one side and work the bead on in both directions until you get to the valve area. While using your thumb, pull the bead tight as though you are trying to pull the last bit over and on. While doing this take the other hand and run it around the rim pushing the bead into the center of the rim. As you do this the thumb should be taking up the new slack you are making. Now that the bead is in the channel, use both thumbs to put the last bit over the rim edge. Do the same procedure with the other side. This side will be harder because you will really have to push to get the bead down in the channel since the other bead is already there and you will have to push it out of the way to some extent.
    I showed a guy that had been a mountain biker for 10 years and done many tires this technique and he was shocked at how much easier it was than what he had been doing. These rims with tape are easy to get the tires on. With Bontrager rim strips they are moderately hard, but no where near the hardest.
    OK, so it was indeed my technique -- what you suggested worked just fine. My (just now invented) excuse is that looking at the rim cross section the edges where the bead seats are wider and flatter than I'm used to. Think all my other rims in living memory have had steeper and narrower runs into the channel causing the bead to get pulled into it by itself when pulled on the opposite side.

    So anyway, tucking the bead into the center channel by hand let these seat up without levers. Thanks.

  23. #3298
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    Is anyone in the States building up custom wheels with the Chinese carbon rims? I don't want to deal with ordering, shipping and building them myself. Lazy, I know.

  24. #3299
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    I hope your results are better than mine......

    Good luck with that junk.

  25. #3300
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlazedHam View Post
    Is anyone in the States building up custom wheels with the Chinese carbon rims? I don't want to deal with ordering, shipping and building them myself. Lazy, I know.
    bikeempowerment.com does. I just ordered the rims myself and had them shipped to Chad at Red Barn Bicycles to be built up.

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