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  1. #2501
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Since the base of the nipple slot is the ideal place for the ends of the spokes, that is where you measure ERD.
    This is what I did. Came up with 602mm. Using DT's spoke calc, with the ERD of 602, my spokes were about 1mm too long. They were sticking out the bottom of the nipple too far.

    I believe that DT's spoke calc is off by 1mm. Could just be me, but I cut my spokes to the length suggested by DT and I had to make them shorter after I laced up both my wheels. A major PITA. I can't remember if I read it, or the guys at wheelbuilder told me that there was something about DT's spoke calc that was off. In my case, it most certainly was

  2. #2502
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    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    This is what I did. Came up with 602mm. Using DT's spoke calc, with the ERD of 602, my spokes were about 1mm too long. They were sticking out the bottom of the nipple too far.

    I believe that DT's spoke calc is off by 1mm. Could just be me, but I cut my spokes to the length suggested by DT and I had to make them shorter after I laced up both my wheels. A major PITA. I can't remember if I read it, or the guys at wheelbuilder told me that there was something about DT's spoke calc that was off. In my case, it most certainly was
    All three if my rims were 603mm.
    There is nothing wrong with the DT Calc. It does simple, repeatable math and shows you all the inputs.
    The if you mean prowheelbuilder.com, their calc is not right, or at least it doesn't do the math they say it does and I can't duplicate the results. They also don't show all the necessary inputs. They link to a Wikipedia article with the formula in it. Run the numbers yourself and they don't come out the same.
    If your spokes end up 1mm above the slot, there's nothing wrong with that. If you disassembled your wheel and trimmed the spokes by 1mm, unfortunately you wasted a bunch of time. If they actually protrude past the ends of the nipples you did something wrong. The DT calc is not at fault.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 09-29-2012 at 07:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  3. #2503
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    All three if my rims were 603mm.
    There is nothing wrong with the DT Calc. It does simple, repeatable math and shows you all the inputs.
    The if you mean prowheelbuilder.com, their calc is not right, or at least it doesn't do the math they say it does and I can't duplicate the results. They also don't show all the necessary inputs. They link to a Wikipedia article with the formula in it. Run the numbers yourself and they don't come out the same.
    If your spokes end up 1mm above the slot, there's nothing wrong with that. If you disassembled your wheel and trimmed the spokes by 1mm, unfortunately you wasted a bunch of time. If they actually protrude past the ends of the nipples you did something wrong. The DT calc is not at fault.
    Both of my rims have an ERD of 602mm. I don't know why or how they are different from your, but they are. And before you wrongly assume I did that wrong, the way I determined the ERD was like this:

    - I glued a nipple to the end of 2 different spokes
    - I cut the spokes to 200mm from the slot of the nipple.
    - I put each spoke through opposing holes, lined them up with a laser and propped them off the ground so they were level to the ground and perpendicular to the rim.
    - I then measured the distance between the 2 spoke ends, 202mm, and added 400mm to that. That = 602mm.

    Wheelbuilder.com built my Crest wheels, not prowheelbuilder. They used spokes that were 1mm too long, according to what DT's calculator said should be used. This is irrelevant.
    I cut my spokes to EXACTLY the length DT's calc said they should be, based on an ERD of 602mm, and they were sticking out the bottom of the nipple. Not a lot, maybe a 1/2mm or so, but too much as the wheel wasn't up to tension yet. I did nothing wrong.

  4. #2504
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    A great thread!

    I am considering pulling the trigger. Can any anyone share their experience/opinion on running on them on a 29er HT? I'm shying away from ENVE due to reported excessive stiffness and and even some harshness (per Walt from Waltwork in one of the threads I researched).

    I used to run Flow, but losing some weight and gaining some footprint will be appreciated.

  5. #2505
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    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    Both of my rims have an ERD of 602mm. I don't know why or how they are different from your, but they are. And before you wrongly assume I did that wrong, the way I determined the ERD was like this:

    - I glued a nipple to the end of 2 different spokes
    - I cut the spokes to 200mm from the slot of the nipple.
    - I put each spoke through opposing holes, lined them up with a laser and propped them off the ground so they were level to the ground and perpendicular to the rim.
    - I then measured the distance between the 2 spoke ends, 202mm, and added 400mm to that. That = 602mm.
    I didn't say you measured ERD wrong, I said if your spokes are protruding past the ends of the nipples (you didn't answer my question), you did something wrong.
    You have falsely accused the DT Swiss calculator of not doing the right math. The calc is not the source of your issue, that's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    Wheelbuilder.com built my Crest wheels, not prowheelbuilder. They used spokes that were 1mm too long, according to what DT's calculator said should be used. This is irrelevant.
    Ah... I just know that the prowheelbuilder.com calc is fishy, I didn't understand who you were talking about.
    1mm too long when using the Stan's published ERD? That actually makes perfect sense. Measure a Stan's ERD by the method you describe and you'll find it is 1.5mm larger than what they print on the sticker.
    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    I cut my spokes to EXACTLY the length DT's calc said they should be, based on an ERD of 602mm, and they were sticking out the bottom of the nipple. Not a lot, maybe a 1/2mm or so, but too much as the wheel wasn't up to tension yet. I did nothing wrong.
    Past the end of the nipple or the bottom of the slot?
    There is no problem with the DT Calc. It's easy to check the math. Why would it give wheelbuilder.com a short result and you a long one? It's just a calculator... it does the same thing over and over again, if used correctly.
    If you want to find out what the problem actually was, I'll help you track it down.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  6. #2506
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    Past the end of the nipple or the bottom of the slot?
    There is no problem with the DT Calc. It's easy to check the math. Why would it give wheelbuilder.com a short result and you a long one? It's just a calculator... it does the same thing over and over again, if used correctly.
    If you want to find out what the problem actually was, I'll help you track it down.
    They were just past the end of the nipple. Not by a lot, but the wheel was at about 50% tension.
    I have a DT 240s Fifteen front hub and a 240s 6 bolt rear hub. Easy enough to input on the DT calc. The calc said 292 for both sides of the rear and 293(L) and 295(R) for the front. All of my rear spokes were under 292, closer to 291. On the front I cut the R side to 294, the actual was 294.5. 294 was perfect. The left side was VERY close to 292, and the actual length was 292.9.
    In the end it didn't matter, as having the threading machine was very helpful, but what a pain to unlace the wheel to re-cut the spokes.
    Like I said, not sure what wheelbuilder was doing, but the spoke they used on my front wheel were past the bottom of the nipple by at least 1mm.

    I may take you up on some help, but more about building.

    Thanks

  7. #2507
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    Good job! 150 km review

    I recently bought and built out a set of these LB rims or "Nancy wheels" as I like to call them. I went with the wider 32 hole 3k glossy ones. They arrived inside of 5 days with great communication from Brian during the confirmation process. The build out is with Hope Evo II's and DT comp spokes. Also running racing ralph and icon tires.

    I have logged about 150 kms over some pretty rough New Zealand terrain and I am loving the ride. I am a heavy rider at 245lbs on a salsa big mama. I have taken some 2-3 ft drops and hard cornering and ruts with no issues whatsoever. I took them back in for a quick spoke tightening and they needed only two small tweaks. My ride is much lighter and tubeless is a big difference. This is by far the best bike investment I've ever made. Made a $1500 ride like a $6000 one.

  8. #2508
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    Low count spoke rims?

    Great thread- I really appreciate the conversation and the sharing of information.... It is such a huge resource.

    I am contemplating building a set of lighter wheels for special days/races- the front would be a lefty.

    I have seen a few lefty hubs with less spoke holes (DT Swiss comes to mind) and was wondering if anyone has had any experience building a low spoke count wheel (24 holes)?

    Normally I value durability over weight- but the allure of light/stiff fast wheels is a pretty strong pull.

    Is this a stupid idea?

  9. #2509
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouan View Post
    Great thread- I really appreciate the conversation and the sharing of information.... It is such a huge resource.

    I am contemplating building a set of lighter wheels for special days/races- the front would be a lefty.

    I have seen a few lefty hubs with less spoke holes (DT Swiss comes to mind) and was wondering if anyone has had any experience building a low spoke count wheel (24 holes)?

    Normally I value durability over weight- but the allure of light/stiff fast wheels is a pretty strong pull.

    Is this a stupid idea?
    I've the same pull, but Stan's Flow's on blow out for $50 each, the pull on my wallet was greater than the weight savings.
    "i'll brazilian when YOU do boy, right around the ol' rusty star. Actually, whole fruit bowl. Get on it!" NicoleB

  10. #2510
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    just put some tires on a friend's light bicycle carbon rims and they didnt seem that friendly. Trying to get them to inflate tubless wasn't easy. Luckily i have a massive compressor at home and shot 100psi in it instantly and it finally took. Hoping they stay sealed.
    2013 Ibis Mojo HD Special Blend with dropper post, hope/stans wheelset and hope x2/m4 brakes

  11. #2511
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    I am sure somebody here has beaten me to this long ago, but I just emailed LB and begged them to consider producing a 26" x 65mm wide carbon rim. Specifically, what I recommended was a 26 x 50-65mm rim to entice the all season fat cyclist (or fat front cyclist). I recommended they look to the Marge Lite as an alu example of the type of rim that I would love to see (and buy). If anyone here has a yearning for a LB fat rim, drop them an email and make your voice heard. I don't know a thing about carbon rim manufacture, and I don't even know if a strong+light ultra wide rim is possible. So no flames, please. It can't hurt to ask.
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  12. #2512
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    just put some tires on a friend's light bicycle carbon rims and they didnt seem that friendly. Trying to get them to inflate tubless wasn't easy. Luckily i have a massive compressor at home and shot 100psi in it instantly and it finally took. Hoping they stay sealed.
    What brand tires were they?
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (153mm 650B)
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    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  13. #2513
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    Quick feedback:

    Just laced up my front wheel 2 weeks ago, with a Tune King MK 20mm hub and Sapim CX-Ray spokes. Although not perfect, the lacing process has been pretty good, with just minor corrections needed to make the wheel perfectly true once all spokes were at the same tension on each side. FYI I put 110kgf on the disc side (Tune rates the King MK hub at 100kgf, so with close-to-perfect tension I assume this is acceptable).

    As for the tubeless setup, I'm using the Bontrager Rythm Symmetric strips, which fit the rim PERFECTLY, it's like they have been made for the rim. I had a hard time popping the tire (Schwalbe Hans Dampf 2.35) completely, as it would pop on 3/4 of the rim AND be airtight, which ended up in the tire wobbling from one side to the other. I had to remove the tire, soap it up and inflate the tire 3 times with a compressor at more than 5 bars (>75psi!) to get the tire to pop on all sides, was really scared for the rim, but it eventually worked. At least it is perfectly straight on the rim now. I'm suspecting the tire to not be perfectly round, though, I don't think it has anything to do with the rim itself.

    What I can say is that the seal between the rim/bontrager strip combo and the tire seems VERY good. Even when deflating the tire, at 0.3-0.4 bars, all beads stay popped into the rim groove, even when moving the tire from side to side, which is the kind of rim/tire connection that I usually observe with a true UST rim (not the case with the ghetto/notubes setups I've tried before).

    I've only been using the front rim for about 30km, with a tube, so can't say if the tubeless setup is bombproof, but will give it a tough test next weekend, I tend to ride quite aggressively and have burped most of the ghetto tubeless / Stan's notubes setups I've been on. The only flawless setup for me has been the Mavic EX823 / Minion DHF UST double ply combo, never a burp, perfect, but of course it is a pure downhilll combo. Will see how this lighter wheel fares, especially the rear wheel!

    I will be lacing the rear wheel to a Halo Supadrive hub and CX-Ray spokes, total wheelset weight should be around 1530g without the rear 12mm skewer (front wheel actually weighs 681g); I'll be giving more feedback once I have used the wheelset thoroughly.

  14. #2514
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    just put some tires on a friend's light bicycle carbon rims and they didnt seem that friendly. Trying to get them to inflate tubless wasn't easy. Luckily i have a massive compressor at home and shot 100psi in it instantly and it finally took. Hoping they stay sealed.
    I inflated my Panaracer Driver tires on LB Wide rims with one round of Gorilla tape and a floor pump. It helped to pull the tire bead towards the hook but no real problems.

    Search this thread and you can see what is likely to happen if you go over 70psi (way too high for tubeless mtb tire) on these rims...Fwiw Stans doesn't even recommend going over 40 psi on his rims and I'd follow that guideline for these. I went up to 50 to seal mine initially which was more than enough. Be careful and pay attention to recommended psi of the tire and if its not tubeless specific it may not handle the higher psi. If you blow a tire off one of these rims it will destroy it.

  15. #2515
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    is there also a tubolar-type of those chinese carbon rims?

  16. #2516
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    just put some tires on a friend's light bicycle carbon rims and they didnt seem that friendly. Trying to get them to inflate tubless wasn't easy. Luckily i have a massive compressor at home and shot 100psi in it instantly and it finally took. Hoping they stay sealed.
    Bontrager Rhythm Strips. $9.99 for the pair will do the job like no other on the rims. The oddest thing about ordering those strips is they are sent in a "HUGE" cardboard box. Not sure why, but it's odd.

    BB

  17. #2517
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Bontrager Rhythm Strips. $9.99 for the pair will do the job like no other on the rims. The oddest thing about ordering those strips is they are sent in a "HUGE" cardboard box. Not sure why, but it's odd.

    BB
    They don't want to crease the rim strip when packaging. Maybe.

  18. #2518
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Bontrager Rhythm Strips. $9.99 for the pair will do the job like no other on the rims. The oddest thing about ordering those strips is they are sent in a "HUGE" cardboard box. Not sure why, but it's odd.

    BB
    Its not the strips that arent sealing. I was able to get the tires on by hand...without using a tire tool. I had to put a strap around the tires and force them to the edge of the rim....just doesnt look like the light bixycle carbon rims are that great.
    2013 Ibis Mojo HD Special Blend with dropper post, hope/stans wheelset and hope x2/m4 brakes

  19. #2519
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    Its not the strips that arent sealing. I was able to get the tires on by hand...without using a tire tool. I had to put a strap around the tires and force them to the edge of the rim....just doesnt look like the light bixycle carbon rims are that great.
    Are you saying that the rim profile is bad for tubeless or perhaps that the bead wasn't properly formed? Is it the exact rim or are you saying that the design itself is bad?

    Without more detail, your terse post should likely be viewed as just the typical frustration of getting a tire seated.

  20. #2520
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    Have you ever been able to put a tire completely on a rim by hand? Not using any tire tools.. just ur fingers? Ive done 50 or so tire installs and have never been able to.
    2013 Ibis Mojo HD Special Blend with dropper post, hope/stans wheelset and hope x2/m4 brakes

  21. #2521
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    Have you ever been able to put a tire completely on a rim by hand? Not using any tire tools.. just ur fingers? Ive done 50 or so tire installs and have never been able to.
    Yes. Road tires, tubed tires, tubless tires all by hand.

    Your belt technique is interesting. You could have also put a tube in there, aired up, let them sit overnight, and then take tube out and air up.

  22. #2522
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    I've never used a tool to install a tire ever....just by hand.
    WHY ARE YOU YELLING??!1

  23. #2523
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    Have you ever been able to put a tire completely on a rim by hand? Not using any tire tools.. just ur fingers? Ive done 50 or so tire installs and have never been able to.
    I have the opposite experience. I've only mounted about 10 tires so far and I don't think I've ever used a tire lever to get the tire on.
    This includes mounting the nobby nics on my light-bicycle 26 inch carbon rims with the rhythm strips.
    I usually start on the side that is opposite of the valve and make sure both beads are in the center channel. That usually gives enough room to push the bead in. The only time I came close to using a lever was with a Kenda small block 8 tire to a Sun Ringle Black Flag Pro 29er rim.

  24. #2524
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    Yes. It is dependent on the rim / tire combination. Some tires are a little large and some rims are a little small. Combine those together and tire mounting requires no levers. On the other hand, the opposite is also true. Some of my wire bead downhill tires can't be mounted with plastic levers. A large rim, small tire, wire bead combination can require metal levers. Plastic levers break long before the tire is mounted. Kenda blue groove 2.6 on azonic outlaws fell into that category for me.

    Maxxis ardent 2.4s fit perfectly on all four of my wider 29er light bicycle rims. A single, wimpy plastic lever made the final bit of tire go over the bead with the expected amount of leverage.

  25. #2525
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyRoots View Post
    Have you ever been able to put a tire completely on a rim by hand? Not using any tire tools.. just ur fingers? Ive done 50 or so tire installs and have never been able to.
    I've done hundreds of tire installs and can count on one hand the number of times I've used a lever.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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