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  1. #1
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    Best Tubeless Brew?

    After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire. To get at this problem, I have heard all kind of homemade combinations of the different tubeless product to get at a best brew of flat protection plus longevity. The latest sounded interesting superjuice with glitter. The theory is that the glitter provide better sealing protection. This sounded like little bit of a stretch to me, but at least if it came spewing out on you during a race, you would be looking good! Anybody want to throw out their experience in coming up with the "ultimate" homemade sealant brew for the rest of us to try?

  2. #2
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    Since 5/04 I been running:
    1 part Latex mold builder
    1 part Slime tubeless
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water

    Tends to last for about a year vs 3 months for Stan's, and I live in the southwest desert (LC NM). Seals better, less "wet spotting".

    I will be adding glitter to the next batch I make - turns out there are different sizes (and colors!) of glitter to think about.

    The idea is a range of hole plugging things, with latex at the low end (tiny holes) and moving up thru the fibers and then the rubber chunks in the tubeless slime. Glitter should add a next (or several more) size ranges of hole the sealant can plug - as well as give you lime green/red glitter sealant boogers

    Antifreeze is in there as a low evaporation working fluid. I note that slime is water/fiber/chunks/propylene glycol antifreeze(low tox). I tried using PG antifreeze, but it has additives for auto use that coagulate the latex. That's why I use cheap PE antifreeze - no additives!
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    Since 5/04 I been running:
    1 part Latex mold builder
    1 part Slime tubeless
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water

    Tends to last for about a year vs 3 months for Stan's, and I live in the southwest desert (LC NM). Seals better, less "wet spotting".

    I will be adding glitter to the next batch I make - turns out there are different sizes (and colors!) of glitter to think about.

    The idea is a range of hole plugging things, with latex at the low end (tiny holes) and moving up thru the fibers and then the rubber chunks in the tubeless slime. Glitter should add a next (or several more) size ranges of hole the sealant can plug - as well as give you lime green/red glitter sealant boogers

    Antifreeze is in there as a low evaporation working fluid. I note that slime is water/fiber/chunks/propylene glycol antifreeze(low tox). I tried using PG antifreeze, but it has additives for auto use that coagulate the latex. That's why I use cheap PE antifreeze - no additives!
    Been using the same for a couple of months- Works great in a "Ghetto" tubeless setup with a 2.55WWLT- Don't know if the glitter adds extra protection- added some anyway. Only issue is valve (schraeder) sometimes clogs.

  4. #4
    mvi
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    Not trying to steal the thread, but does mold builder change his properties (not mixed) with time? Mine seems more solid, almost grannulating. Time for a new can?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    Since 5/04 I been running:
    1 part Latex mold builder
    1 part Slime tubeless
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water

    Tends to last for about a year vs 3 months for Stan's, and I live in the southwest desert (LC NM). Seals better, less "wet spotting".

    I will be adding glitter to the next batch I make - turns out there are different sizes (and colors!) of glitter to think about.

    The idea is a range of hole plugging things, with latex at the low end (tiny holes) and moving up thru the fibers and then the rubber chunks in the tubeless slime. Glitter should add a next (or several more) size ranges of hole the sealant can plug - as well as give you lime green/red glitter sealant boogers

    Antifreeze is in there as a low evaporation working fluid. I note that slime is water/fiber/chunks/propylene glycol antifreeze(low tox). I tried using PG antifreeze, but it has additives for auto use that coagulate the latex. That's why I use cheap PE antifreeze - no additives!
    A year? Wow! Now find me a tire that last's a year!
    You wouldn't be in so much pain if you didn't ride like a dork!

  6. #6
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    Black pepper: I've stoped a few radiator leaks with it... I wonder how it would work in your homebrew??? I may have to give it a try.

    BTW, what is Latex Mold Builder, were do you get it, and how much of this mixture do you put in each tire?

    Mikey

  7. #7
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    Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLikesIt
    BTW, what is Latex Mold Builder, were do you get it, and how much of this mixture do you put in each tire?
    Mikey
    Cloxxki got it: art supply stores, or the internets. Hobby Lobby is my usual source, but here's one: http://www.artmolds.com/product_deta...ubber&u_cat=28
    And more important, the Material Safety Data Sheet - which tells you it is latex and ammonia (and a bit of water, but they don't actually say that): http://www.artmolds.com/pdf/ACF5DCA.PDF

    Quote Originally Posted by mvi
    Not trying to steal the thread, but does mold builder change his properties (not mixed) with time? Mine seems more solid, almost grannulating. Time for a new can?
    I've brought spokeprep back to life by adding ammonia to it, and you might be able to do that to your LMB. But for $11/pt I would just spring for another jar. Once mixed into sealant, it hasn't degraded on me - stored in a glass jar inside the house.

    Amount to use? Just like Stan's - for a 2.4x29 tire I use 3 scoops (2 oz ea)
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the info and the links...I'm gonna give it a try.
    Mikey

  10. #10
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    I'm running that mixture in a 2.55 WW and a Panaracer 2.35 Rampage and love it. Tires run better tubeless no doubt.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.
    That or just look around in your refrigerator. Why build mold when you already have an inexaustible supply? Not latex, but it will be funky smelling none the less.
    "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" -- Mark Twain.

  12. #12
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    PE antifreeze? What is the PE??
    Do you mean cheap EG antifreeze?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxic
    PE antifreeze? What is the PE??
    Do you mean cheap EG antifreeze?
    Yes, yes, I do. Ethylene Glycol, I.E. old school antifreeze. I blame my fingers.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  14. #14
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    1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good. Hoping to learn more about the glitter idea by the time I need to mount up the next tire! Maybe a little quicker acting than the little rubber plugs in the Slime.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good. Hoping to learn more about the glitter idea by the time I need to mount up the next tire! Maybe a little quicker acting than the little rubber plugs in the Slime.
    How long have you been running this mixture?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLikesIt
    How long have you been running this mixture?
    Only a couple of months. Previously, I used 1 part stans to 1 part Tubeless Slime. I added the Bonty Super Juice at the recommendation of MikeSee, who said it really helps keep the stuff from drying out.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  17. #17
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    Hey wadester, or anyone...

    Is latex the base material for Slime?? I live in a small town and the 'Mold Maker' (liquid latex) can't be found localy. I was just wondering if your formula would work using an extra part Slime (in place of the mold maker). I can get Slime just about anywhere and it is relatively inexpensive.

    What do you think of this variation to your recipe??

    2 parts Slime
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water
    a spoonful of glitter
    and a dash of black pepper just to flavor things up

    Mikey

  18. #18
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    Uh, no.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLikesIt
    Hey wadester, or anyone...

    Is latex the base material for Slime?? I live in a small town and the 'Mold Maker' (liquid latex) can't be found localy. I was just wondering if your formula would work using an extra part Slime (in place of the mold maker). I can get Slime just about anywhere and it is relatively inexpensive.

    What do you think of this variation to your recipe??

    2 parts Slime
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water
    a spoonful of glitter
    and a dash of black pepper just to flavor things up

    Mikey
    Slime is just antifreeze/water/fiber - and chunks in tubeless. Adding more/different chunks may improve your basic Slime, but I think that the real key to tubeless is the latex. That's what seals the beads and sidewall porosity.

    Like I said earlier - you just gotta pony-up and get that jar of latex. I mix mine in a 5 pint pickle jar (barely fits - gotta stir that last water in carefully) and use till gone. I actually find that the mixed sealant is good to the last drop, but the latex will dry out in the jar
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  19. #19
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    I had slime from tha auto parts store and compared it to the regular and tubeless slime. The auto parts stuff is noticeably chunkier. I now run the same mix as most everyone else here.

    1 pt mold builder
    1 pt slime (auto parts store stuff)
    1 pt antifreeze
    1 pt windex

    It has been running strong in my tubeless rig (819 rims and Specialized Enduro UST 2.3 tires) for 6 months without replenishing. Stan's usually lasted a month here in the desert. The true testament will be if it can outlast the summer... The tires are about half worn and I never thought tires could be this trouble free!

    I've had lots of cactus thorns, 1 nail and 1 piece of glass. All have sealed quickly. The only downside is the stuff is slightly nasty looking when it picks up dirt after sealing a hole. Oh and you need to mix all the mold builder up in one shot. As such it helps to have friends who want to do their tires as well. A batch turns out about 3/4 gallon.

  20. #20
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    Thanks for the input

    It was interesting to see all the combinations. I think I am going to try the bonrtrager super juice as the base, slime (for cars to get the bigger chunks), glitter (purple sparkling), and dark, dark orange food coloring. I think this mixture should cover the gamut of hole sizes. In addition, if everything fails and I get the dreaded tubeless shower, I will be a chick magnet; orange stripes, purple glitter, and chunks of flourescent green!

  21. #21
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    OK, last night, I mixed up wadesters recipe and added about 2 ozs of glitter. Did the getto tubeless thing on a 26 in wheel with an old velocirapter front tire. The tire had severall punctures. When I aired it up to seat the bead, I could here and feel the air escapeing from the holes. After the bead was set, I added the mixture (about 3oz) and aired it up again...as I turned the wheel in my hand I could literaly hear the holes seal up...instantly! The bead sealed fairly well in a matter of seconds but did continue to weep a tiny amount of sealent over night. The sidewall is still weeping some small pinhead sized spots in a few places but after 24 hrs I can't tell that it has lost any pressure. I'm going to go hammer it on the trails tommorow and see how it holds up.

    I think wadester is right about the latex 'mold builder'. The sidewall and bead seems to leak such small amounts that the chunks and fiber are of little use...but the latex will eventually seal up the pours...I hope.

    Mikey

  22. #22
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    Pics - opened up

    1) The Ignitor/road rim/stanstrip on the front of the Karate Monkey after a year. After no problemo for nearly a year, had to pump up twice during one ride. This was March

    2) The Rampage/notube rim/stanstrip that's been running since the Rampage came out. Same deal - suddenly had to keep pumpin' it up.

    3) Tread condition of Rampage

    4) The sealant booger out of the Rampage - none in Ignitor
    Attached Images Attached Images
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  23. #23
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    Puttin' it back

    1) The good stuff: 5 pints of Wade's Secret Sauce, and three sizes of glitter. I consulted with my local glitter expert (my 11yo daughter), and found that glitter comes in different sizes - purple is medium, red is fine, the light blue/iridescent is x-fine. Woulda got a nicer color for the x-fine glitter, but this is what they had.

    2) 3 scoops of sauce, and 1/2 teaspoon of each glitter

    3) My secret weapon for beading a tubeless setup: It's just the soapy water mix recommended by Stan - the trick is the recycled pump spray bottle. Puts a good dose of lube on the bead where it belongs w/o making a huge mess - and the fine spray seems to wet the tire very well. Just stick the nozzle between the bead and the rim and spray all the way around the wheel.

    As a note, I got a small sidewall tear on the next ride - but noticed it at a stop because there was a tic-tac sized green bubble on the sidewall. Left it alone and it sealed up dry.
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    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  24. #24
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    Wade, I've been real happy with the setup I did using the old velociraptor and your 'sauce'. If this stuff last as long as you say, then I'll forgo the Stans.

    I have three sons that ride and get flats...I'd/we'd been repairing about two a week. I didn't want to do the tubless thing yet on all those bikes, so I just removed the valve stem core and squirted about 1 1/2 to two ozs. in each. No more flats...well, one exception...one of my sons hit a big rock and got an instant pinch flat. We pumped a little air in the tire, quickly laid it on its side and rotated and repeated on the other side. The holes sealed up and he has been riding that same tube since. I'm impressed.

    Mikey

  25. #25
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    Chunks....`

    I've been going straight Stan's for years and evaporation has not been an issue in the damp NE.

    An observation. Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.

    Any thoughts?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    I've been going straight Stan's for years and evaporation has not been an issue in the damp NE.

    An observation. Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.

    Any thoughts?
    I think you've stated the problem well: no chunks! I know that my sealant needs to be well-stirred to have the full blend rather than a layer of soup and a layer of extra-chunky. Perhaps Stan's process isn't always mixing well and you got a jug o' soup? Anyways, mix in some tubeless slime and/or glitter to re-chunkulate.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  27. #27
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    I just mixed up a half gallon of Wadester's mix last night (with glitter).

    Hopefully I'll be testing it out this weekend on a Weirwolf / Flow combination.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    I think you've stated the problem well: no chunks! I know that my sealant needs to be well-stirred to have the full blend rather than a layer of soup and a layer of extra-chunky. Perhaps Stan's process isn't always mixing well and you got a jug o' soup? Anyways, mix in some tubeless slime and/or glitter to re-chunkulate.
    Yup, add some slime that'll chunk it up

  29. #29
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    New Word

    This board is great. I learned a new word.

    Chunkulate: definition - to add particles to tubeless sealant or the process that follows from drinking to much Tequila the night before.

  30. #30
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    Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?

  31. #31
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    I mix mine in a baby shampoo bottle. It is 24oz. It comes with a open/close pour spout. Shake well before pouring. I'll try the glitter next time.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by field3
    Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?
    After doing lots of reading, I decided to order a Stan's tubeless kit online. But while waiting for my kit, I went ahead and experimented with 'ghetto tubeless', since there was plenty of green slime, and old inner-tubes lying around the shed anyway.

    I found the ghetto experiment was useful, but purely as a learning exercise. It did prove my chosen tires will air-up easily with just a floor-pump and sudsy water. Plus it proves that my rims need a layer of weather-stripping. But on the downside, I found ghetto tubeless messy and fiddly, plus I was unable to keep it inflated for any length of time. To sum up, it's easier to go with a kit.
    Brisbane, AU

  33. #33
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    I use both...

    Quote Originally Posted by field3
    Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?
    I run both. Ghetto tubeless and Stans system.

    With the Stans Arch and Flow rims, I use just the yellow tape and a valve with Stans liquid.

    On the ghetto tubeless, a split 26" tube over the top of some Velo tape works fine with Stans liquid. Never had a single problem with either so far.

    Just one thing though. If you are going to go the ghetto method, try to get the inner tubes with the removable valve core, it makes topping up the liquid sealant way easier.



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  34. #34
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    I ran tubeless a few years back but gave up because I kept burping tires (especially after a particularly bad rock to rim incedent).

    I never tried back then, so forgive my ignorance, but will CO2 "freeze" the sealant if you try to re-inflate after a tear or puncture that doesn't seal right away?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by field3
    Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?
    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    After doing lots of reading, I decided to order a Stan's tubeless kit online. But while waiting for my kit, I went ahead and experimented with 'ghetto tubeless', since there was plenty of green slime, and old inner-tubes lying around the shed anyway.

    I found the ghetto experiment was useful, but purely as a learning exercise. It did prove my chosen tires will air-up easily with just a floor-pump and sudsy water. Plus it proves that my rims need a layer of weather-stripping. But on the downside, I found ghetto tubeless messy and fiddly, plus I was unable to keep it inflated for any length of time. To sum up, it's easier to go with a kit.
    For sealant, homebrew works better.
    For tires, YMMV - each tire/rim combo has its own dynamic. That said, I've never had a tire not work altho some are easier than others.
    For rims - notubes rims are the bomb, and are most likely to work for all. I have converted a couple of other rims, and find standard rims to be more "fiddly". You have to keep the pressures higher with them, and when they run out of sealant seem to lose a bead vs the notubes which will let you keep pumping up til you get back.
    rimstrips - I haven't tried ghetto, or the yellow tape. I went with stanstrips and they work well, so haven't changed. They aren't a wear part, so once bought - you're golden.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  36. #36
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    While your at the craft store getting your Mold Builder pick up some Silica beads. They are used for drying flowers....
    Then you can put some of these tiny balls/pellets in your tire and they seal up tiny and bigger holes,,,, I have not put a micrometer on them but they work well,,, and you buy one bag that will last a life time for $5.
    my Mix

    1 part Mold builder
    1 part Napa Auto tire sealant
    2 parts EG anti freeze
    1/3 "stans" (cytomax) size scoop in tire

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by single track mind
    I ran tubeless a few years back but gave up because I kept burping tires (especially after a particularly bad rock to rim incedent).

    I never tried back then, so forgive my ignorance, but will CO2 "freeze" the sealant if you try to re-inflate after a tear or puncture that doesn't seal right away?
    CO2 will 'consume' some Stans latex. Lately, I've mixed Stans with Slime and found it to be much more resistant to the latex boogering.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.

    Any thoughts?
    Try using mica instead of glitter. Mica was teh large glittery stuff used in paper products that Stan's used to use before they changed to the small coagulant that doesn't work quite as well. I'm sure it saves Stan's money, but if I have to add product to make their product work like it used to then I might as well make my own.

    Mica is found in the paper making isle at any Michaels type store.

  39. #39
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    Is Stan's getting cheap on us? Is glitter expensive? Maybe whatever Stans uses is expensive.

    I have been using this mixture with good, not great results for more than a year. I've had to add to it and clean out the tire several times during that time. It's being used in a commuter specific bike with 1.5" specialized tires. (and also my MTB's) Most recently when I checked it, it appeared the latex was dried out and there was green colored water like in the photo's above. I have not been adding the cheap antifreeze, but will start now.


    1 part latex mold builder
    1 part slime
    2 parts water

    While this formula has sealed many punctures, it does need maintenance to stay alive. I originally read about the antifreeze and did not want to use it for fear it would damage my tires, but this thread has made me see the error of my thoughts. I'll add it next maintenance opportunity.

  40. #40
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    I've been running Stan's on Arch rims with fine results. Just did 6 wheels with Stan's and ghetto (26" tubes) and had some trouble with one (Saguaro on Holm 40mm rim). Now I find that I have a bunch of Slime for tubes from some years back. Has anyone tried mixing it with Stan's? I know everyone states tubeless Slime, but I have the tube schtuff.

    I will try it and report back, if noone knows. I think that 2 scoops Stans and 1 scoop Slime tube in that monster tire.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  41. #41
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    I run Slime with Stans, it works fine.


    R.
    It is inevitable ...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman
    I run Slime with Stans, it works fine.


    R.
    Yeah, lots of posts here an other places about mixing them; it is the kind of Slime I'm asking about. Am I wasting time to use the tube version I have? Is the tubeless Slime required? Inquiring minds want to know........
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  43. #43
    Dr Gadget is IN
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    Yeah, lots of posts here an other places about mixing them; it is the kind of Slime I'm asking about. Am I wasting time to use the tube version I have? Is the tubeless Slime required? Inquiring minds want to know........
    The difference between tubeless slime and "regular" slime - is the addition of rubber chunks. If you use regular, you won't get as much chunk action. I have been told (and have it in trial now) that adding glitter gives you good chunk selection - especially since there are at least 4 or 5 sizes of glitter. And colors - think milky green fluid with purple glitter.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  44. #44
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    If you're running UST, and just want a little thorn protection, would straight Stan's be the best choice?
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMark
    If you're running UST, and just want a little thorn protection, would straight Stan's be the best choice?

    Stans works fine, but is still subject to the faster drying out syndrome...which is why you should mix your own brew...

    On average, in warm to hot temps, Stans has to be topped up every 3 months or so... whereas a home brew can last up to a year.




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  46. #46
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    I went out and got stuff to try wade's brew this afternoon. I got the wrong slime, so hopefully i can swap that out this afternoon. I did find a 40% off coupon for hobby lobby (where i got the latex). Normally its about 12 bucks, so its a decent discount IMO.

    Here is the coupon.

    *no, i'm in no way related or tied to Hobby Lobby. Just thought i'd pass on the discount to you fellas.

  47. #47
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    Can anyone give a specific brand or place you're purchasing your cheap anti-freeze? I can't seem to find anything that I think will work. It looks like the RV stuff is more in line with what is necessary, but I am not sure.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmucker
    Can anyone give a specific brand or place you're purchasing your cheap anti-freeze? I can't seem to find anything that I think will work. It looks like the RV stuff is more in line with what is necessary, but I am not sure.
    Basically any generic / house brand. Here is one example.
    Last edited by slocaus; 07-23-2008 at 05:20 PM.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  49. #49
    Dr Gadget is IN
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    The gallon I'm still using (1 pt at a time) is Auto Zone - I imagine the house brand of any low budget auto place will do.

    When I run out of that stuff, I intend to go puro:
    http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemic...ne_Glycol.html
    No additives at all, and non toxic to boot. $12/qt, $20.58/gallon.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  50. #50
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    Pure air from atmosphere, wrapped in a Yes T00b.
    Professional Amateur. Disagree? Submit your grievances here.

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