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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by inzane
    That is a point, the 909's have a bit of riding in them already...

    Interesting.
    Rampage - pretty new, less than 3 months when I tubelessed them.
    Conti's were brand spanking new. But I think Conti's sidewall is thin and the crosshatch design seems to promote some seepage.
    The wheels on my bike go 'round and 'round

  2. #302
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    My Nano Raptors have wet patches all over here and there, including the tread. They took a couple of weeks to appear and aren't getting any worse. I'm speculating, but my guess is that for any given tyre, the type of sealant would make a difference. I'm using a variation of Wadester's Secret Sauce and find the sealing qualities very good. The wet spots don't bother me because they took so long to appear and aren't worsening.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCarpet
    My Nano Raptors have wet patches all over here and there, including the tread. They took a couple of weeks to appear and aren't getting any worse. I'm speculating, but my guess is that for any given tyre, the type of sealant would make a difference. I'm using a variation of Wadester's Secret Sauce and find the sealing qualities very good. The wet spots don't bother me because they took so long to appear and aren't worsening.
    sounds like normal casing wear. The constant flex of the casing, especially at lower pressures, apparently slowly weakens the rubber in the sidewalls. There is also the fact that braking and pedaling both try to pull the bead in the opposite direction of the tread.

    The difference has been pretty apparent to me when converting different tires that had seen varying amounts of use with tubes in the past. The nearly new tires converted with almost zero sidewall seeping while the older tires were seeping a lot more. The year old Rampage that I converted basically had green sidewalls after I was done (until the dust stuck to everything and turned it a nicer brown)

  4. #304
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    I just mixed up a batch of WSS last night

    1 part Latex mold builder
    1 part Slime tubeless
    1 part cheap antifreeze
    2 parts water

    I got the 50/50% pre-mix cheap antifreeze, so that became 1 part water + 1 part antifreeze.

    I found a good deal on mold builder at Dick Blicks ($22 for 32 oz)
    http://www.dickblick.com/products/ar...reemtex-latex/

    Mixed it up, carefull to dilute the latex with water before adding the pre-mixed antifreeze mix. Everything mixed up well with no clumping and the black specks from the Slime are mostly suspended with some sinking.

    I sprayed this into the left over latex to prevent it from solidifying:
    http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1203

    I read a page back that there may be too much Ethylene Glycol in this mix. If I find this to be true, I'll add some more Slime and mold builder and hopefully this will balance it out.

    I'll report back.

  5. #305
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    Last note on Glitter

    I mentioned this a while back, but here is the picture. Largest booger I ever found. This was after a long life (run to dryout) in a front tire.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Best Tubeless Brew?-img_0405s.jpg  

    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  6. #306
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    I rode with my brother yesterday and we went tubeless on his 26" SS. He went all the way down to 28psi and loved it.

    I thinkg I'm going to try it on my 29'er. Nothing fancy, I think I'll just buy the Stan's kit.

  7. #307
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    What are you guys using for valve stems and a good source for them? I hate breaking the seal to add goop.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    What are you guys using for valve stems and a good source for them? I hate breaking the seal to add goop.
    I found a deal on some presta tubes with removable valve cores for really cheap and cut out the valve stem. I bought a handful to make the shipping worth it and now I have a handful of valve stems

  9. #309
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    Being new to the tubeless scene, and having just laced a Stan's Flow 29'er to a DT Swiss 240S rim, I thought I'd share with you what's been working stellar for me. I picked up a quart of Stans for $20, 24 oz of Slime Tubeless for $13, and had some old style Ethylene glycol antifreeze laying around.

    I put in 3 oz of Stans to the tire, a Wire bead CST Caballero, hit it with the compressor, with soap on the beads, and it popped right on,nice and straight. Did two full sets of shaking the Stan's up onto the bead, like the video showed, and laying the tire on a bucket, on it's sides. Held air fine over night. Added 2 oz of slime, 1oz of antifreeze, and 1 oz of water, mixed it all up, pulled the valve core, and injected that in.

    Going on 4 weeks now, I just added about 7 psi, up to 37 from 30, after a month of riding around about 450 miles. No leaks, good bead seal, no flats, I know I've gone over plenty of goatheads this past month.

    My thoughts are that a good beadsealing of Stan's latex before injecting the rest and turning it into Wades Secret Sauce inside will lay down a good base coat of liquid latex, and the rest of the sauce can be used fixing the leaks. The Caballero is easily capable of 1200 miles on the rear tire, and the rear is where I get most of my leaks anyways. Good test for the product and booger formation. At 850 grams, the Cabellero is not a thin tire, hasn't weeped a drop, and is a great long wearing tire, especially if you ride pavement to the trail head.

  10. #310
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    I have a problem with either my tires or WSS not sealing. I mixed the WSS as indicated. I was surprised at how thin it was -- like whole milk consistency. The black pieces of rubber from the Slime settled to the bottom of the container rather quickly I thought, and even after 5 minutes of the container sitting on the shelf, the bottom had turned grey with the rubber particles. I could shake it up and they would be dispersed again.

    So I have a new set of 29er Kenda Small Block 8s that I mounted up last night on Stans Flow/ ZTR wheels with the factory tape and valve stem. First I drizzled the WSS along the bead area inside the rim and tilted the wheel so it flowed all the way around on both sides.

    Next I mounted the tires, except for a small section of the bead on one side. I poured in 2 scoop fulls (2 oz roughly) of WSS into the tire and then pushed the bead over the rim and inflated it. It inflated and popped into place fine with a floor pump.

    I repeated this with both front and rear wheels and then did the shake to spread out the WSS inside the tire and bead area and then set each wheel down on a bucket. I turned the wheels over every hour for 3 turns, shaking the wheels again when I turned them. Both tires were leaking air and bubbling out the WSS.

    3 hours later, both tires were down to about 10 psi (I started with about 35). I inflated them, turned them and shook them again and then set them down on the buckets overnight.

    This morning the rear tire still had air, but was bubbling what looked mostly like antifreeze from the bead. The front tire was flat. This morning I added more WSS to the front tire - which already had what looked like enough down inside the tire, but I added more. I re-inflated both tires and shook them again and now they are sitting on the buckets again.

    The WSS seems to be way too watery because the air is bubbling right past it and out of the bead.

    Has anyone experienced this?

    I'm thinking I am going to pick up another bottle of slime and a larger container and mix more slime and mold builder into the mix. I think that whoever it was who said there might be too much anti-freeze in WSS might be onto something.

  11. #311
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    Anyone try non-ammonia latex?

    http://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    I have a problem with either my tires or WSS not sealing. I mixed the WSS as indicated. I was surprised at how thin it was -- like whole milk consistency. The black pieces of rubber from the Slime settled to the bottom of the container rather quickly I thought, and even after 5 minutes of the container sitting on the shelf, the bottom had turned grey with the rubber particles. I could shake it up and they would be dispersed again.

    So I have a new set of 29er Kenda Small Block 8s that I mounted up last night on Stans Flow/ ZTR wheels with the factory tape and valve stem. First I drizzled the WSS along the bead area inside the rim and tilted the wheel so it flowed all the way around on both sides.

    Next I mounted the tires, except for a small section of the bead on one side. I poured in 2 scoop fulls (2 oz roughly) of WSS into the tire and then pushed the bead over the rim and inflated it. It inflated and popped into place fine with a floor pump.

    I repeated this with both front and rear wheels and then did the shake to spread out the WSS inside the tire and bead area and then set each wheel down on a bucket. I turned the wheels over every hour for 3 turns, shaking the wheels again when I turned them. Both tires were leaking air and bubbling out the WSS.

    3 hours later, both tires were down to about 10 psi (I started with about 35). I inflated them, turned them and shook them again and then set them down on the buckets overnight.

    This morning the rear tire still had air, but was bubbling what looked mostly like antifreeze from the bead. The front tire was flat. This morning I added more WSS to the front tire - which already had what looked like enough down inside the tire, but I added more. I re-inflated both tires and shook them again and now they are sitting on the buckets again.

    The WSS seems to be way too watery because the air is bubbling right past it and out of the bead.

    Has anyone experienced this?

    I'm thinking I am going to pick up another bottle of slime and a larger container and mix more slime and mold builder into the mix. I think that whoever it was who said there might be too much anti-freeze in WSS might be onto something.
    Sounds like you got some of that new low-fiber slime. Also, some tire/rim combos are not good for tubeless. Did you use soapy water to assemble?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    Sounds like you got some of that new low-fiber slime. Also, some tire/rim combos are not good for tubeless. Did you use soapy water to assemble?
    The Slime I got was the tubeless slime from Wal Mart with the black rubber specs in it. There was another one for tubes that had less rubber in it.

    I didn't use soapy water, but I coated the inside of the rims with the mix, and now that it's had 13+ hours, the WSS should have sealed by now.

    The thing that makes me question my mix is that the rubber really settles at the bottom. The photos of other people's WSS mix does not indicate this settling.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    Anyone try non-ammonia latex?

    http://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html

    Never heard of it, but a very interesting thing. I wonder what they use to keep the latex liquid? I found some "low ammonia" latex, which used ammonium hydroxide - still ammonia, but with more water added.

    At $15.50/pt, its a bit more money. You gonna try it?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  15. #315
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    This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build.

    Two questions:

    Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues?

    And how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?

    Edit: And a bonus, 3rd question - Can you run street friendly tire pressures (upwards of 80psi) in a typical 29er tubeless set-up?
    Last edited by CommuterBoy; 11-17-2009 at 10:02 AM.
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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build.

    Two questions:

    Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues?

    And how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?

    Edit: And a bonus, 3rd question - Can you run street friendly tire pressures (upwards of 80psi) in a typical 29er tubeless set-up?
    All this blizm blazm is making me second guess my decision to go tubeless on my new bike. Its too late now, so I am in.

    The Stan's website has a video showing puncture tests ... including road wheels ...

    http://www.notubes.com/movie_newdemo.php

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build.

    Two questions:

    Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues?

    And how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?

    Edit: And a bonus, 3rd question - Can you run street friendly tire pressures (upwards of 80psi) in a typical 29er tubeless set-up?
    All this blizm blazm is making me second guess my decision to go tubeless on my new bike. Its too late now, so I am in.

    The Stan's website has a video showing puncture tests ... including road wheels ...

    http://www.notubes.com/movie_newdemo.php

  18. #318
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    I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.
    You have no excuse for driving to work
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.
    I doubt it, all indication is that MTB tubeless tires should be run at lower prossures.

  20. #320
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    isleblue65; if you didn't use soap, it probably won't seal. You need to clean everything off and start over with soapy water on the bead. Watch the video on Stan's site again. I also saw no mention of inflating the tire with a tube to seat the tape. Something doesn't sound right about your mixture either. My mixture is thick enough that the little rubber particles are suspended for quite a while.

    Commuterboy; most rims for MTB such as Stan's have max inflation pressure around 45 psi or less. Most MTB tires have max inflation pressure around 65 psi. Despite what most people think, inflating a fat MTB tire much above 40 does almost nothing for rolling resistance and in fact can increase rolling resistance above a certain point. High inflation pressures make the ride less comfortable and lower traction. Tires have the least rolling resistance when the deflection at the contact patch is around 15% of the tire height as a general rule.

  21. #321
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    I'm totally with you on rolling resistance, except for the part about more air making it worse. The smaller the contact patch, the less rolling resistance. Square profile tires make this a bit more complicated, but the physics doesn't change. The harder a tire is, and the smaller the contact patch, the less resistance. I don't think you could air up a bike tire hard enough to make it a disadvantage. The tires I'm using on my MTB corrently (forte versa trak) have a rounded profile, not a squared profile, and are a 'compromise' mtb/street tire to begin with. Airing up a rounded profile tire decreases the contact patch more significantly than a squared tire, and results in less rolling resistance on the street. I basically go by what the rear tire looks like when I look down while riding on pavement. If it's squished way out, I figure more contact, more rolling resistance. I found 70psi (reccomended high pressure is 65, I don't want to push it too far) lets me get up more on the center tread of the tire, and rolls noticeably faster on the pavement. It's completely horrible on dirt (part of my commute is on a dirt road)...I skitter all over the place, but when I hit the pavement, the higher the pressure the better, with these tires at least.

    The commute is not a 'deal breaker' with going tubless though...I have a dedicated commuter bike. I could deal with lower pressures for the occasional commute on the new 29er. Just trying to get a feel for it. Thanks for the info.
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  22. #322
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    there are other systems, but Stan's void the warranty if you run high pressures (>45psi).

  23. #323
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    Forgive my ignorance, but can I expect to run the same pressures on my 29er that I run on my 26"? I'm 200 lbs, and I run around 40-45 on trails usually.
    You have no excuse for driving to work
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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    At $15.50/pt, its a bit more money. You gonna try it?
    A bit pricey, yes, but for peace of mind with the rims, I will give it a shot. And it's not a whole lot more than the stinky stuff. It could alleviate some of the ammonia/aluminum concerns here.

    I can't say when, however, because I'm not sure how much tubeless time I'll get in the next few months here in WI. I'm on my SS CX commuter almost exclusively now and that's tubed with road-ish tires in cold temps.

    I read this thread and I thought I recalled seeing the ammonia-free stuff somewhere. So about 5 different Google search phases searches later, I found that stuff at fxsupply.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    isleblue65; if you didn't use soap, it probably won't seal. You need to clean everything off and start over with soapy water on the bead. Watch the video on Stan's site again. I also saw no mention of inflating the tire with a tube to seat the tape. Something doesn't sound right about your mixture either. My mixture is thick enough that the little rubber particles are suspended for quite a while.
    I saw a tubeless blog where the guy recommended doing it the way I did it, and it worked because it puts a layer of sealant between the rim and tire. I'm not sure why mine didn't work, but I'll take your advice (and Stans) and remove the tires, soap them up and try again.

    I never used a tube to seat the tape, so not sure where you read that.

    My sealant is Wade's recipe line for line, so I'm not sure what happened. I'll thicken it with more slime and latex and see how it works for round #2. I'll have a 5 year supply at least!

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build. fficeffice" /><O></O>
    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    <O></O>
    Two questions:<O></O>
    <O></O>
    Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues? <O</OAnd how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?<O></O>
    <O></O>
    Edit: And a bonus, 3rd question - Can you run street friendly tire pressures (upwards of 80psi) in a typical 29er tubeless set-up?
    <O</O1st question: Let me preface this by saying I’m not a tubeless "expert" but I can tell you what I know. I started running tubeless last winter - 1st couple wheelsets I did was using Stan's sealant. Since then all my conversions have been with some variation of the WSS homebrew. I've never had any freezing issues with either sealant and I know several of my rides last winter were well below 0F (-20F was my coldest ride last year but I can't be certain I was running tubeless at that point). If you're mixing the antifreeze version I can't image you'll have any problems with freezing.

    2nd Question -- Weight savings: I've never actually weighed a before and after conversion so I just don't know. I'm positive most (if not all) of my conversions resulted in a net "loss" of weight, but to be fair, I've always hated flats so when I ran tubes I usually had something like tube+slime+liners (and sometimes TR tubes) so my tires were always ridiculously heavy - which I felt was a fair trade-off for no flats. Tubeless allows me to ditch all the extras and just go with tire+sealant and still no flats so I've been very happy with the tradeoff (I usually run extra sealant too - like I said, I HATE flats). I can tell you this about tubeless - although I can't exactly qualify it exactly, I've noticed that tubeless seems to roll faster. I don't know if it's weight or how a tire and tube interact, but regardless the same tire on the same rim running tubeless feels faster than tubed. I was reminded of this a few months ago when I was riding my cross bike on a wheelset that I thought I had converted to tubeless. The whole ride I was perplexed why my bike felt so slow - I had switched to my commuter wheelset but it felt much slower than my offroad wheelset. Low and behold, I got a pinch flat on a creek crossing (which also had me perplexed because that rarely happens with tubeless) when I went to put a tube in I realized the wheelset I was running was still tubed. I guess the reason this experience brought it home for me was because, in this instance, I wasn't biased. I thought I was running tubeless and there was a noticeable difference in the bike's performance.

    <O</O3rd question: I wouldn't recommend it. Almost every bad experience I've had with tubeless so far has been due to over-inflation - especially with 29er tires. I've been able to successfully run 45# + on my cross bike tires but once you bring the volume part of the equation into the mix as you do with 29" tires trouble seems to ensue. I really don't think you need to run that high of pressure with tubeless though - as counter-intuitive as it sounds, it just doesn't seem like you need the high pressure to realize reduced rolling resistance when you run tubeless. If you really want the higher pressure with a 29" tire I would make sure your tire is plenty snug on the rim - which usually means building up your rim strip. I would suggest trying it and see for yourself if you feel like the lower pressure tubeless setup seems slow to you. If you're still convinced you need to run high pressure wait until you have a little experience with tubeless. It took me a while to get a feel for when a tubeless conversion would work well. Now that I'm fairly confident in my tubeless abilities I would be more willing to try higher pressures -- after a few blowouts you can tend to get a little gun shy about over pressurizing your tires.

    Good luck

  27. #327
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    ^^ Thank you. Great info.
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  28. #328
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    Various comments

    When I first went tubeless I had been running thornproof tubes with slime at 50psi.

    Weight: Anything is lighter than this setup, but it made me flat proof for up to a year at a time - just like tubeless/WSS. I live in goathead/mesquite/cactus country, and running w/o sealant is equivalent to planning to go for a walk with your bike.

    On pressure: I started at my original 50psi - and OMG! Felt like I was riding a pogo stick! The tires would bounce off of everything and were making scary rubbing-hand-over-balloon noises, too. Dropped to 35psi and achieved nerdvana. I think that high pressure in a MTB tubeless setup is asking for a bead blowout.

    On using soapy water to seat tires: It's for lube, man! Without soap you will probably have the rimstrip/tape drug out of place as things seat. DAMHIK. This is why I went with the spray bottle for the soapy water - it reeeeally gets it in where you need it w/o needing huge sloppy amounts. Using sealant to paint the beads would leave all that chunkulation in there to prevent sealing - maybe if you used watered down latex, but I'd still worry about things sticking as the beads seat.

    Sealant consistency: Slime should be kinda like fiberfill - and WSS should stay mixed for many days w/o significant settling. If the rubber chunks fall quickly to the bottom you don't have nearly enough fiber to seal holes. Did you use a complete bottle to mix? Shaken, not stirred?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    Anyone try non-ammonia latex?

    http://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html

    I'm planning on trying a brew with this stuff.



    Latex acrylic admix. It's an acrylic emulsion. Dries to a nice stretchy film, no ammonia or anything nasty enough to be mentioned on the MSDS. Viscosity is about like coffee creamer, seems just barely thicker than it needs to be.

    Got some leftover from a mortar job, but it's fairly inexpensive, $18/gal.

  30. #330
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    I really hope the acrylic latex works, but my experience with acrylic latex (such as caulk) is that it dries real slow. So if this stuff dries slow, the holes will never seal because the pressure will push it out the hole before it seals. Ammonia has a high vapor pressure that is why it works in this application.

  31. #331
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    Finally got it to seal

    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    On using soapy water to seat tires: It's for lube, man! Without soap you will probably have the rimstrip/tape drug out of place as things seat. DAMHIK. This is why I went with the spray bottle for the soapy water - it reeeeally gets it in where you need it w/o needing huge sloppy amounts. Using sealant to paint the beads would leave all that chunkulation in there to prevent sealing - maybe if you used watered down latex, but I'd still worry about things sticking as the beads seat.

    Sealant consistency: Slime should be kinda like fiberfill - and WSS should stay mixed for many days w/o significant settling. If the rubber chunks fall quickly to the bottom you don't have nearly enough fiber to seal holes. Did you use a complete bottle to mix? Shaken, not stirred?
    I removed the tires and cleaned the tubes and wheels thoroughly. Then I mixed a 20oz bottle of tubeless slime with the remaining 12oz of latex mold builder, and added 25% of the WSS mix to that. This new mix contains significantly less water/ antifreeze than the WSS mix, but all of the rubber particles stay suspended and the mix is still liquid enough to flow around inside the tire as fast as I could rotate the tire in my hands.

    This works like magic:
    20 oz Slime tubeless
    12 oz Latex Mold Builder
    8 oz WSS mix. (1.6 oz latex, 1.6 oz Slime, 1.6 oz Antifreeze, 3.2 oz water).


    That's my recipe and I'm sticking to it!

    I used soapy water on the tire bead to seat and followed the Stans instructions for the rest of the process. This morning both tires were sealed and held air.

    I'm still not sure what happend with my original WSS mix, but it was way too watery to work. This is way too much and I attribute this to why mine didn't seal. My old mix was still bubbling wet out of my sidewalls by the way.
    Last edited by isleblue65; 12-09-2009 at 01:37 AM.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    I really hope the acrylic latex works, but my experience with acrylic latex (such as caulk) is that it dries real slow. So if this stuff dries slow, the holes will never seal because the pressure will push it out the hole before it seals. Ammonia has a high vapor pressure that is why it works in this application.
    This stuff seems to dry at about the same rate as the natural latex thinned to a similar consistency. Gonna try it out in an old tire on an extra wheel first.

  33. #333
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    anyone ever do a nitrogen fill with latex
    would it last longer?
    just wondering

  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy
    I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.
    Not that race results have anything to do with commuting, but I was able to finish 5th in the Dirty Kanza 200 mile gravel road race in 2008 on converted Schwalbe Marathon Cross 38c tires with only 50psi in them. You never need 70psi in a tubeless tire unless you're riding a road bike. Even professional road racers are only running 90psi in their tubeless tires, from what I've heard. That might not be true, but that's the word I've heard from one reliable source who should know.
    I like bikes

  35. #335
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    Air is 70% nitrogen> probably no difference.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    Air is 70% nitrogen> probably no difference.
    As far the sealant drying up,

    It does make a big difference when displacing the air while closing a jar of latex or especially polyurethane mold builder. In the case of latex i believe the lack of oxygen, and with polyurethane the lack of oxygen and water vapor. I believe the effect on polyurethane is far more dramatic.

    Might be worth trying on a very well sealed tire that doesn't need topping up often.

  37. #337
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    Need help ...with homebrew sealant ...

    [Edit] A million apologies for my previous (garbled) post! My bad, and I feel like a real idjit now!

    OK, been using Stan's sealant for a while, but really keen to try the WSS recipe. Here's my questions.
    • Living in Oz, so the term "Mold Builder" is virtually unknown round here. So I got 1 Liter of Shamrock Rubber Latex at a local art-supplies shop. Does this stuff look OK suitable?
    • Also was unable to source "Tubeless Slime" locally, so I bought some inner-tube Slime at local LBS. I understand the tubeless variety contains more rubber-chunks, but luckily I found some no-name slime in the shed, that while totally useless as sealant it does contain some chunky bits that resemble cracked pepper. So I'm considering mixing in some of this slime too.
    • Finally, I searched 5 different auto-parts stores for Propylene Glycol based anti-freeze, however I'm told it's unavailable here in Oz. Fortunately, I found a bottle of Castrol Anti-Freeze in my shed (it contains Ethylene Glycol @1100g/L), so I'm hoping this will work OK. I note it appears to be a highly concentrated EG solution (with no additives listed), so I'm considering watering it down somewhat.

    Any thoughts?
    And once again, so sorry for my bad communication earlier!
    Last edited by hootsmon; 12-08-2009 at 03:27 PM.
    Brisbane, AU

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    I'm preparing to mixup my first batch of homesome Wade's
    What exactly is your problem? Got ingredients? Read the recipe?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  39. #339
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    It's all in the prep

    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    I'm preparing to mixup my first batch of homesome Wade's
    I have a mixing shed in the back yard and I wear hip boots.

    Just don't add the ingedients in the wrong order and you'll be fine.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    On pressure: I started at my original 50psi - and OMG! Felt like I was riding a pogo stick! The tires would bounce off of everything and were making scary rubbing-hand-over-balloon noises, too. Dropped to 35psi and achieved nerdvana. I think that high pressure in a MTB tubeless setup is asking for a bead blowout.
    You are definitely correct about high pressure giving you a bead blowout!! The only bead blowout I had was when my compressor gauge broke, and I set my pressure to 60psi instead of 28psi, and my tire blew off on the trail.

    I have always followed the same guidelines as Stan's recommends with his rim strips since ghetto tubeless is just a similar version. He says to not go over 40psi. I usually only go to 35psi to seal the tire and shake the sealant. (With ghetto tubeless you are not seating a tubeless bead, which sometimes needs high pressure to pop into place.)Then after I am sure I have a good seal I trim the excess rubber, and set my pressure. I am currently running 25psi front in a DHEA 2.3(which is almost a 2.5) and 27psi in back in a Minion DHF 2.3.

    Here is the link where he discusses air pressure at set up. Read the last paragraph of Section 4.

    http://www.notubes.com/support_detailed.php

  41. #341
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    hootsman: Ithink all your supplies will work and if they don't then we learn something. I would probably ditch the innertube slime and just use the chunky stuff though.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    hootsman: Ithink all your supplies will work and if they don't then we learn something. I would probably ditch the innertube slime and just use the chunky stuff though.
    Thanks yourdaguy! Just on my way to the lab (I mean shed) right now to mix a small test-batch. If nothing blows up, I'll report back real soon

    [EDIT]Well after giving the slime component a bit of thought, I elected to use a 50-50 mixture of inner-tube Slime and "Never Flat" chunky stuff. My reasoning was I'm just discovering TLR type tyres with beefy sidewalls and casings, for which a sealant action is a bigger requirement, rather than puncture protection per se. But anyways, I mixed up a test-brew, which looks and feels exactly like it should....


    Then for a quick test, I mounted-up a Bonty Jones XR 29er 2.2 TLR tyre on a Mavic 317 rim fitted with Stans tubeless rimstrip. Admittedly that Jones is a particularly bomb-proof tubeless tyre, but it all went well, so indications are good for WSS so far!
    Last edited by hootsmon; 12-08-2009 at 06:57 PM.
    Brisbane, AU

  43. #343
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    Wadester's Homebrew vs CaffeLatex

    Here is a post I did recently regarding CaffeLatex, where I pulled a thorn out of a tire that had 3 scoops of CaffeLatex(CrappeExlax ) All it did was shoot out all 3 scoops, and then I cleaned it up and put in Homebrew, and it sealed up instantly.

    I just used a mixture of mold builder, and auto slime, and cheap 50/50 antifreeze mix. I put in a little more auto slime than latex, and just added the antifreeze until I had the consistency I wanted, and it worked just fine.

    Here is the link to the CaffeLatex vs Homebrew experience.

    CaffeLatex--Failing Grade/ Homebrew superior(pics)

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    Here is a post I did recently regarding CaffeLatex, where I pulled a thorn out of a tire that had 3 scoops of CaffeLatex(CrappeExlax ) All it did was shoot out all 3 scoops, and then I cleaned it up and put in Homebrew, and it sealed up instantly.

    I just used a mixture of mold builder, and auto slime, and cheap 50/50 antifreeze mix. I put in a little more auto slime than latex, and just added the antifreeze until I had the consistency I wanted, and it worked just fine.

    Here is the link to the CaffeLatex vs Homebrew experience.

    CaffeLatex--Failing Grade/ Homebrew superior(pics)
    Wow, that's very interesting! Thanks for the info.
    Brisbane, AU

  45. #345
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    Has anyone tried the foaming Caffe Latex sealant yet. I tried some in a tube, just to see if i could trust it and it seams to hold air (100psi) for 3 months in a 700x23 tire.

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by doralswheels
    Has anyone tried the foaming Caffe Latex sealant yet. I tried some in a tube, just to see if i could trust it and it seams to hold air (100psi) for 3 months in a 700x23 tire.
    Did you read the posts right above yours about Caffe Latex?
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

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  47. #347
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    Okay I jumped in and tried this to great effect so far!

    I used the standard recipe (Mold release, anti-freeze, ATV slime and water) and had no issues. I slowly added the mold release to the liquid and stirred well.

    I have filled the 29'r, my 26'r that I use to tow the toddler trailer, the trailer and a jogging stroller (treated the tubes on those). I kept the ATV Slime bottle since it had a nipple top and instead of using the supplied hose I cut the hose of a can of old Fix-a-Flat that had a screw on valve for schraeder which made treating the tubes really easy. The front tire of the 26 had dried out Stans in it and I just popped a bead and added- sealed right up!

    No issues so far, very easy and I treated two 29r, two 26r, four 16 inch tubes and a 10 inch tube with the one batch! Nine tires on one batch, plus the fact that it will not dry out in two months sure sounds like a bit of a money saver to me (probably pennies when you account for labor, travel to pick the items at two stores, etc) but in the deal I got to reuse a pickle jar that will not end up in the dump, I used the equivalent liquid to five of the ATV Slime bottles- so four will not end up in the dump. I save on tubes, trips to get them and time/aggravation of changing them and of course, on the toddler stuff it is great not to have to stop to make a repair because they seemed to only flat when the baby was ready to be home and getting cranky!

    Thanks to the folks that pioneered this method!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  48. #348
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    Can Wadester chime in on his latest additive to Wadesters Secret Sauce (WSS), the 1/2 teaspoon full.
    Also, Wade, what currently is the most effective mix that you've found to date and ratio of parts Liquid Latex Rubber, Slimes Tubeless, Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze, and water?

  49. #349
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    "Glitter is the herpes of craft supplies"

    I was looking at Stans, but think I will stick with tubes. Some of these look really good though

  50. #350
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    State of the Sealant Message

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Can Wadester chime in on his latest additive to Wadesters Secret Sauce (WSS), the 1/2 teaspoon full.
    Also, Wade, what currently is the most effective mix that you've found to date and ratio of parts Liquid Latex Rubber, Slimes Tubeless, Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze, and water?
    The two trials I've got running right now are:

    Original recipe, with sodium alginate thickener (1/4 teaspoon per 2 scoops WSS). I've got a wheel running this since August w/o any issues, and I gave three other people the thickener to try - with no return report, which hopefully means no problems.

    New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.

    Unless something bad happens, I will be going with N5/WSS (WNSS? WLSS? WSS2?) for the next batch and for the future - but YMMV!


    And I must say again - every version I've tried works so well that one data point takes a long time, so progress is slow. OTOH, it's all good! Use the Original Recipe for a sure thing or join us wild experimental risk-takers!
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  51. #351
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    Wade; I am one of the ones you sent the sample to. It has been running in 2 wheels without issues since shortly after you sent it (I think about 4 months)

  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.
    OK, just to clean this up a bit:

    1 part Latex Mold Builder
    2 parts Slime (ATV/Mower Sealant)
    2 parts Water

    Correct?


    I'm assuming that the process is first adding water to mold builder (or is it reverse, mold builder to water?), then adding that mixture to the slime.

    Correct?

    What amount per tire are you using?

    Lastly, propylene glycol is the "evironmentally friendly" antifreeze (as opposed to Ethylene Glycol aka Prestone), and as stated, part of the Slime recipe. I am thinking that every few months, you could simply add a squirt of PG to replenish any loss of viscosity, since most if not all of the "sauce" is still in there. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Simplemind; 12-10-2009 at 09:54 AM.

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockon6160
    "Glitter is the herpes of craft supplies"

    I was looking at Stans, but think I will stick with tubes. Some of these look really good though
    All the recommendations have moved away from glitter though, so you can stay disease free!

  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    OK, just to clean this up a bit:

    1 part Latex Mold Builder
    2 parts Slime (ATV/Mower Sealant)
    2 parts Water

    Correct?
    Yes - this is the "latest" recipe, thicker w/o thickener.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    I'm assuming that the process is first adding water to mold builder (or is it reverse, mold builder to water?), then adding that mixture to the slime.

    Correct?
    I prefer to add the slime to the latex, stirring all the while, then thin with water
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    What amount per tire are you using?
    I use 2-3 scoops per 29x2.35 tire (Rampage!) The scoops are from old Stan's kits, I think they are 2oz each.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    Lastly, propylene glycol is the "evironmentally friendly" antifreeze (as opposed to Ethylene Glycol aka Prestone), and as stated, part of the Slime recipe. I am thinking that every few months, you could simply add a squirt of PG to replenish any loss of viscosity, since most if not all of the "sauce" is still in there. Thoughts?
    If you look at the pics in this thread, you will see that the latex gets used up coating the tire and sealing holes- so putting in more of the diluting fluid would probably not help. You need more of the active stuff as well.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    Wade; I am one of the ones you sent the sample to. It has been running in 2 wheels without issues since shortly after you sent it (I think about 4 months)
    Sa-Weet! No noticeable difference from "normal"? I think this applies to the "thicker" mix as well. So far so good. Datapoint is the first failure - whenever that happens.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  56. #356
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    One last item!

    What if you substitute Prop Glycol for the water ?

    My point is to find a mixture that doesn't evaporate in the tire!

  57. #357
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    What are you guys using for rim strips/ect? I just take an old tube, cut the stem off w/ about 2 square inches left at the top. Stick the stem in the bike. Then I rap some yellow plumbers tape around the rim.

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    One last item!

    What if you substitute Prop Glycol for the water ?

    My point is to find a mixture that doesn't evaporate in the tire!
    Hmmmmmm........ Water has always been in the mix as dirt-cheap universal solvent and filler. Rainman brought up the point that when you get sidewall/tread seapage, it's always a clear bright green antifreeze looking stuff. His opinion was that we should minimize the AF content, since it is most likely to ooze out.

    I can't see anything else negative about your idea - so I'll say what I usually say: Go For IT! And be sure to report back.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  59. #359
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    I have also noticed that the only thing that ever seems to leak out is the ethylene glycol. I am of the opinion that eliminating that would be a good thing. I like the new recipe but am still using the last of my old recipe with EG. When it is gone, I am going with the new recipe. Of the guys that have tried the old recipe with the new type antifreeze (the red stuff) has it leaked out too?? Just curious; but still going to try the antifreeze free recipe next.

    It looks to me that either kind of antifreeze would inhibit sealing since it has almost zero vapor pressure. When you get a leak from say a thorn, the sealant flows into the hole and exposure to the air helps to dry it out and seal the hole. The antifreeze would not evaporate as readily as water and it looks like to me that it would slow the sealing process. On the Stans videos when he puts the ice pick through the tire, it seals almost instantly. I haven't had a tire I wanted to try that on, but it seems like the antifreeze would actually slow this reaction down.

  60. #360
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    use something that dries fast. If it will dry out in a month then every two weeks put a little bit of water back in the tire. If you do this then your stuff will not dry out now will it?

  61. #361
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    It may be that when you get a puncture, and sealant mix flows into it - the chunks and latex stick in the hole, but the carrier fluid (antifreeze and water) comes out. Rainman's said that the more antifreeze he put in, the more seeped out.

    I don't think we'll ever get away from antifreeze in some amount. Slime uses propylene glycol/water as the carrier fluid, and so does Stan's. The new recipe just minimizes it.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  62. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    It may be that when you get a puncture, and sealant mix flows into it - the chunks and latex stick in the hole, but the carrier fluid (antifreeze and water) comes out. Rainman's said that the more antifreeze he put in, the more seeped out.

    I don't think we'll ever get away from antifreeze in some amount. Slime uses propylene glycol/water as the carrier fluid, and so does Stan's. The new recipe just minimizes it.

    I mixed the new batch as stated, however I used 1 part H2O and 1 part Propylene Glycol.
    So, we can name it the "Holidaze Sauce" (OK, not hollandaise and not holiday ......whatever)


    1 part Latex Mold Builder
    2 parts Slime (ATV/Mower Sealant)
    1 parts Water
    1 part Propylene Glycol antifreeze

    Will report back.

  63. #363
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    3 questions...

    1. Anyone considered substituting Polyethylene_glycol in place of EG or PG, as the stabilizer and for reducing evaporation. Can't promise it'd work, however I have used PEG successfully for stabilizing green timber (in wood-turning), and I remember it's relatively low-toxic.
    2. Also, just wondering if Propylene Glyclol is preferred (over EG) purely because of its lower toxicity? Or are there other factors, like perhaps PG being kinder to the tire-compound?
    3. And finally, just wondering whether latex-solution might be photo-sensitive? In other words, could UV work to catalyse the polymerization process? The main reason I'm asking is because I notice that Stan's sealant comes packaged in black-plastic bottles (possibly to maximize shelf life)?

    Sorry to be asking more questions than I have answers for.
    Brisbane, AU

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    1. Anyone considered substituting Polyethylene_glycol in place of EG or PG, as the stabilizer and for reducing evaporation. Can't promise it'd work, however I have used PEG successfully for stabilizing green timber (in wood-turning), and I remember it's relatively low-toxic.
    1. Let's see - the link says that PEG is the basis of a number of laxatives, and sexual lubricants. It is also under investigation for use in body armor[15] and tattoos to monitor diabetes.[16]
      What's not to like?
      Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    2. Also, just wondering if Propylene Glyclol is preferred (over EG) purely because of its lower toxicity? Or are there other factors, like perhaps PG being kinder to the tire-compound?
    Low-tox it is. I haven't seen anything to suggest that either/any glycol has an effect on tire rubber.
    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
  65. And finally, just wondering whether latex-solution might be photo-sensitive? In other words, could UV work to catalyse the polymerization process? The main reason I'm asking is because I notice that Stan's sealant comes packaged in black-plastic bottles (possibly to maximize shelf life)?
Many of us mix/keep sealant in clear glass or plastic. I don't keep mine in direct sunlight, but don't avoid light, and it keeps fine for many months w/o even forming a skin. I think Stan uses opaque containers because 1) Stan's sealant looks boring 2) That is a common cheap container - same as cheap motor oil comes in.
Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
Sorry to be asking more questions than I have answers for.
Your penance is to try PEG, since you've got or know where to get some.
This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  • #365
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    Good answer!
    Brisbane, AU

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    Propylene Glycol supplies

    After a little research, I have discovered that food-grade Propylene Glycol is commonly used in beer-chilling applications. That's handy, cuz we enjoy a cold beer down-under. So anyway, if you're looking for food-grade PG in smallish quantities, then I'd suggest trying your local beverage-handling supplier.

    Here in Oz, I found Andale Beer Dispensing most helpful.
    Last edited by hootsmon; 12-16-2009 at 11:13 PM.
    Brisbane, AU

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    Feedback on latest recipe variation

    Well it looks like it's been a couple months since I mixed up my last batch of sealant. This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze. I switched out a set of tires that I had put the new sealant in right when I made it (I'm switching over to winter studded tires) and found the sealant inside the tires had become mostly gelled. I never flatted with these tires and I think it may have been fluid enough to still stop some leaks but definitely not liquid enough to circulate around the tires very well. I also noticed the jug of sealant I was using was considerably thicker than when I originally mixed it. FYI - the jug I used for storing the sealant and all other parts of the recipe were kept the same (except maybe slightly more latex used) so my 1st impression of this winshield washer fluid recipe is definitely a thumbs down. Doesn't look to me like this solution would last any longer than Stan's. My next batch will be back to the original recipe (AGAIN).

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish
    Wadster,

    What part of the country do you live in? I.E. how cold does it get there? I need to make up a new batch and would love to find a recipe that was antifreeze free (I'm tired of feeling like I'm leaving an environmental bomb anytime I have problems with tubeless). Problem is it gets cold here in Nebraska so I need to have something that won't freeze up. Not sure if the Slime has enough anti-freezing compounds to keep the whole concoction from freezing so I'd be curious what your take is on the matter. I have a guy I ride with here that only uses latex and windshield washer fluid so I might give that recipe a try also.

  • #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish
    This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze.My next batch will be back to the original recipe (AGAIN).
    Mo detailed info would be good!

    What was the makeup of batch #1, batch #2, length of time in tire, etc.

    Thanks

  • #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish
    Well it looks like it's been a couple months since I mixed up my last batch of sealant. This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze and found the sealant inside the tires had become mostly gelled.
    What kind/brand of windshield washer fluid did you use? A lot of that is just isopropyl alcohol and soap - which would kinda be freeze-resistant - but don't know about latex/IPA interaction. Did it have an ammonia smell kinda like the latex?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  • #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    What kind/brand of windshield washer fluid did you use? A lot of that is just isopropyl alcohol and soap - which would kinda be freeze-resistant - but don't know about latex/IPA interaction. Did it have an ammonia smell kinda like the latex?
    I could never understand why anyone would want to use windshied washer fluid in the sealant formula.
    Here is a typical formula:
    Water 97-98% weight
    Methanol less than or equal to 1% by weight
    2-Butoxyethanol less than or equal to 1% by weight.
    Water, a bit of alcohol, and some surfactant.
    Not much wonder it dries up in the tire!

  • #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind
    I could never understand why anyone would want to use windshied washer fluid in the sealant formula.
    WWF usedta be ammonia water - kinda like Windex. Latex mold builder is kept "liquid" by adding ammonia. Add more ammonia, latex stays un-rubber longer was the idea (I think) but since it all became alky water there is no real point. As you noted.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  • #372
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    Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.

    Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel.

    After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.

  • #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxtheheathen
    Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.

    Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel.

    After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.
    Awesome, just awesome. Sometimes the trouble shooting is more satisfying than the actual solution, huh. Well done! (And filed away in the memory bank for future reference, thanks.)
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

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  • #374
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    Just mixed up my first batch:

    1 part slime plus 3 parts RV antifreeze (with the PG rather than EG), gave it a good shake.

    Then added 1 part mold builder and gave another good shake.

    Everything mixed perfectly.

    Added 4 oz to each wheel, mounted a Racing Ralph up front and a Wierwolf on the back. Sprayed a little washing liquid and water mix onto the bead and went to work with a floor pump.

    Both tires seated with a satisfying "pop" onto a Stans Arch and seem to hold air just fine.

    I'll check them tomorrow and see if they go flat overnight.

    Total cost:

    Mold Builder C$12.50 (had a 50% off coupon)
    Slime: C$12.99
    RV Coolant: C$3.99
    Killing time on a cold winter afternoon: Priceless

    12oz of mixed sauce is still in the jar, if this works I'll do my other bike.

    There's enough mold builder left for at least another 20oz batch as and when I need it.

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

  • #375
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    Alright so I'm getting ready to try this, the one thing that is still holding me up is the antifreeze, I bought the cheap stuff but it is a antifreeze/coolant, didn't see anything with just antifreeze, is this the right stuff? It has more than just the EG in it, that's why I am hesitant to use it, it also has Diethylene glycol, sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate and sodium neodecanoate, is this going to work or do I have the wrong stuff?

  • #376
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    Antifreeze and coolant is the right stuff.

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    Ok, I tried this again last night, I used two layers of the stans tape and then my og rim stirp, and then stans tubless strip on top of that, the first time I just used the og strip per the stans website reconmendation but I burped the tire on the first ride so I thought it might not be sealed tight enough so I added the yellow tape, the tire sealed really fast both ways. Oh it's a WTb all mountain rim with a new crossmark tire. Anyways checked it this morning and didn't lose any air pressure, when I aired it up I heard tire seat with a pop, so that would all indicate that things are good right? My only question is the rim is pretty true, but it seems like the tire is not perfectly round, so I'm worried that it is not seated evenly all around, but if this is the case wouldn't it leak air? I'm thinking this will probably improve with a little riding, but not sure. Anybody deal with this kind of thing?

  • #378
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    Update:

    24 hours later and both tires are still holding air nicely.

    Now if the snow would ease up a little I could go out and ride later.

  • #379
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    I am a little concerned that the tire might not be totally seated from your description.

  • #380
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    So what do you suggest? Can I deflate it and soap it up and reinflate without doing anything else? When I inflated it I didn't have any seapage out of the bead really, if so not for more that a second or two, it seamed to seal up really fast.

  • #381
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    mgvr'n

    Quote Originally Posted by maxtheheathen
    Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.

    Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel.

    After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.

    Brilliant! I wish I thought of this when mine dried up last summer! I will put this one in the bag of tricks.

  • #382
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    bigherc: I am concerned that it is not seated but not convinced that it is not seated. I have had tires that were not perfectly made. I would just check all around both sides by looking and pushing in very hard with your thumbs while it is aired up. If it passes visual inspection and the push test, all around on both sides it is probably ok.

  • #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigherc
    So what do you suggest? Can I deflate it and soap it up and reinflate without doing anything else? When I inflated it I didn't have any seapage out of the bead really, if so not for more that a second or two, it seamed to seal up really fast.
    Look around the outside of the rim, the tires always have a raised ridge circle around that shows just above the rim. I was told by a tire rep that it is there so you can see if the tire is seated. If it is even all the way round, you are fine.

    Many tires have a wobble, and I think when we ran tubes, we never noticed. Tubeless makes us a little more careful in getting the beads seated, and then we notice the wobble. I notice a little wobble in all the tires I have with four wheel sets tubeless; the knobbier they are the more I notice. As long as you see that ring above the rim, you should be fine.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  • #384
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    Thanks for the tips guys, I checked that line Slo, it seems to be even all the way around, also took it on a short 5 mile ride of fire road yesterday and it seems alright, I checked the pressure when I got to my truck and I did lose a pound or two, left it alone and checked it in the morning and the pressure was exactly the same and found a small spot on the edge of the rim where some fluid may have came out and sealed it up, oh also forgot to mention that I defliated the tire before the ride just to see how the bead felt and it was all tight all the way around, but I just reinflated it and went for a ride within a hour of doing it so this may account for the small spot in the edge of the rim. Also, check the rim and seems it has a small flat spot so this is also causing a lot of the problem. I think I am going to leave it for now, take it on another ride tomorrow and see if the pressure stay's the same or if I have any problems and then go from there, but I'm thinking it is probably good. Thanks again for the help guys!
    Oh and my brew was:
    1 part mold builder
    2 parts slime with about ten onces of Stans to make up for my lack of slime
    1/2 part coolant
    1 1/2 water
    I liked the idea of at least a little coolant in there

  • #385
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    anyone try aquaseal on the sidewalls to prevent the weeping? just a thought.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  • #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    anyone try aquaseal on the sidewalls to prevent the weeping? just a thought.
    I brush the inside of the sidewalls with rubber cement when mounting a new tire. Seals most of the sidewall leaks, so you use less sealant. Doesn't completely eliminate weeping, but I'd say drastically reduced.

  • #387
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    Anyone else tried Schwinn Tire Sealant?

    Best Tubeless Brew?-schwinn-tire-sealant.jpg

    I bought it at Target for $4.84. Not quite enough to do two tires based on the recommendation of 4-5 fl oz per tire when there's only 7.5 fl oz in the bottle but I actually used it as a supplement on 3 tubeless tires that I've Slimed. Well, actually two were previously Slimed & Fix-A-Flat'ed while the third was only Slimed & Schwinned .

    Looks promising if the packaging claims are to be believed. Especially notable are:

    Non-flammable
    Non explosive
    Water Soluble
    No CFC's
    Keeps tires fully inflated and cool ... to last longer (bolding mine)
    Seals are permanent and inhibit corrosion
    Effective protect from -34*F to 240*F.
    Seals punctures up to 1/8" in diameter

  • #388
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    I have been experimenting with some formulas myself. I have used Stan's for about 10 years now so listen up. First, the valve stem is very important. I tried the ghetto ones and have had poor luck. If you have schrader valves the following option works great or you can drill your rim holes out to Schroeder (or is that schrader) size which is what I did. Sealant just work better with schrader valves because the big hole allows you to put it through the hole unlike presta valves.
    For valve stems I went to Big O auto tires and got some tubeless valve stems for trucks/cars two bucks a piece. They push through the valve stem hole then a nut and rubber grommet lock them to the inside of the rim. Not ghetto but cheap enough and work "much" better. Then I cut my rim strip from an old tube.
    1) Tape the inside of the rim with fiberglass tape ie heavy duty packing tape. This helps seal the spokes.
    2) Add the rim strip
    3) Push the valve stem on and tighten the nut to the inside. You need to make a small hole in the rim strip.
    4) Put one side of the tire on the rim.
    5) Hold the tire and rim vertical/up and add the sealant to the tire at this time rather than waiting until the tire is totally on the rim.
    6) Keep holding the tire/rim vertical and put the other side of the tire on the rim. You can generally do this by hand without tire tools.
    5) Pump up with electric pump or co2.
    6) Spin tire and hold horizontal on each side to seat each side wall or bead.

    I have found you do not need special tubeless tires or rims for this to work. I have also found that a Kevlar reinforced tire (not just bead) really helps, endures higher pressure, less prone to blowups or blow offs, and is less prone to sidewall damage.

    I just use Stan's but I also tried
    1 gallon Sherwin Williams exterior latex paint white.
    1 gallon Benjamin Moore latex enamel.
    Not sure how it works on the bike but my barn looks great.

    I also tried
    1 part fertilizer
    1 part kerosene
    It is the bomb.

  • #389
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    A few of you have been bringing up weeping sidewalls. After going to the kevlar beaded version of the weirwolf and raptor, I thought I fixed my weeping problem. However, I found both tires were weeping moderately when I took a month break from riding (not my choice). I'm guessing the weeping has something to do with the WSS separating.

  • #390
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    ^^ but it doesn't separate in storage ???

    I've just re-read this thread cover to cover...awesome info. I've still never gone tubeless, but I will be the sharpest tool in the shed when I do. Thanks for the info.

    I have an answer to a question from page 3 about slime and freezing temps... I commute all winter in the sierras...down to zero or below, several months of teens/twenties... I have had the standard (no-chunks) slime go goopy on me in my tubes at temps around the low teens. It feels like a clown bike for the first few minutes of the ride, with heavy spots in the tires... then it loosens up after a while and feels normal...so it doesn't exactly freeze, but it gets thicker at lower temps (around 13* F or so)

    I also have the ATV slime (with the chunks) in...imagine this...my ATV. I have one tire with a pretty good hole in it that the slime manages to keep sealed up pretty well all winter. It definitely does not freeze...the quad sat in my shop last month in temperatures of 10 below zero (F). (the slime has been in there well over 1.5 years, by the way) I went out to fire it up to save the battery at 5 or 6 below zero, and I had parked it with the hole up...the tire was low, so I hit it with the compressor and rolled the tire so the hole was at the bottom, and it sealed it right up...little green spot on the snow where it was sitting...the stuff was definitely in liquid form while in a tire at several degrees below zero. (no mix, just straight up slime)

    ...that has been my experience with the two types at least. Take it for whatever its worth. One of my major concerns with going tubeless has been the cold...but I'm not as concerned as I used to be. I'm expecting much longer life out of my goo throughout the winter months.
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  • #391
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    I have just followed the:
    1 part Latex Mold Builder
    2 parts Slime tyre sealant
    2 parts Water.

    Maybe not exact but pretty much spot on. I did a mix the other day on my old 26" and the front 29" tyre and was much thicker then this so I am a bit worried now but at least I can judge to see what works best here on the East coast of Australia.

  • #392
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    Latest WSS Recipe

    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.

    Unless something bad happens, I will be going with N5/WSS (WNSS? WLSS? WSS2?) for the next batch and for the future - but YMMV!
    Shouldn't the new WSS recipe be placed in the front of the thread so those that are too time constrained (or lazy) to read through 4 pages would know that the recipe has changed. I myself found the whole thread very interesting but other might miss this detail…

  • #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenrow
    Shouldn't the new WSS recipe be placed in the front of the thread so those that are too time constrained (or lazy) to read through 4 pages would know that the recipe has changed. I myself found the whole thread very interesting but other might miss this detail…
    Yah, maybe. But then why is this thread "hidden" in 29er bikes? Logic has nothing to do with it. You must use your google-fu to find it, or just get lucky.

    You must also realize that ANY version of WSS is good stuff - this thread is for us experimentalists what want it to be the most' bestest. The recipe you quoted is merely the latest experiment and is not tested enough to be released to the (lazy) masses.

    Oh, and it keeps out the lazy riff-raff.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  • #394
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    Some good info on sealant options I came across on velonews this morning: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/...ealants_102346
    You have no excuse for driving to work
    (unless you don't have studded tires)
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  • #395
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    This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?

    BTW, I've been using Mold Builder and water 1:1 for a couple years now, and it works great. If you haven't tried it, it's simple and it seals pretty well for me.

  • #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by FancyPete
    This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?

    BTW, I've been using Mold Builder and water 1:1 for a couple years now, and it works great. If you haven't tried it, it's simple and it seals pretty well for me.
    I don't think this is far-fetched... In fact, I've discussed it with a few folks before. I'm not sure what it'd do, but it's probably worth trying out. That said, it'd be awfully expensive for the potential benefits, unless you could somehow get it to stay in the tire for much, much longer (which theoretically you could due to the increased molecule size of Nitrogen not being able to escape through the tire sidewall as easily).
    I like bikes

  • #397
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    If nitrogen would work, we are already using it. Air is over 70% nitrogen. If those larger molecules stayed in the tire when the oxygen escaped, eventually after several refillings we would have nothing but nitrogen in the tire.

    Actually, I just looked it up: air is over 78% nitrogen.

  • #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    If nitrogen would work, we are already using it. Air is over 70% nitrogen. If those larger molecules stayed in the tire when the oxygen escaped, eventually after several refillings we would have nothing but nitrogen in the tire.

    Actually, I just looked it up: air is over 78% nitrogen.
    I think a fart bumps it up to 84%...
    I like bikes

  • #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by FancyPete
    This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?
    Nitrogen vs air?
    The point for latex storage is to exclude oxygen, which will react with the latex. I believe the reaction is slow enough that in the dynamic environment of a tire, it won't be noticeable. The sealant will be used up plugging holes faster.

    Other benefits of nitrogen:

    Bigger molecule, leaks slower. Nitrogen molecules are about 3% bigger than oxygen (300 picometers vs 292). There isn't enough volume of other components of air to check on them.

    Nitrogen heats up slower (higher heat capacity - at constant pressure, nitrogen=1.04 kJ/kgK, oxygen=.919kJ/kgK, or 13% higher). If your mtb tires are getting hot enough for this to matter, you should seek a career in racing.

    Nitrogen is dry, air is wet. Hello - latex sealant contains water. Using dry nitrogen will just dry out your sealant a bit faster.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  • #400
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    So I just mixed up two jars of WSS.

    I didn't measure it out all that well, basically I split a small jar of mold builder between both jars, a small tube of auto slime, and then filled the rest of the jar with PG RV Antifreeze.

    However, I don't like that there's not a LOT of particulate in the mix (Some rubber from the slime, but it really thinned out, and also might be too large of particles to get a nice bead seal.

    SO, off to the internet I went. Found this website and found what might be the holy grail of particulate:

    http://www.blockheadstamps.com/catal.../Glass-Marbles

    many different sizes, CHEAP, sphere shaped for best sealing, AND they are colored for all you stylish bastards out there. I think I'm going to order some red (so I can see them in the mixture/how well they are working) of the 1mm and .5 mm beads and add them to my mix.

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