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  1. #1
    I like rigid MTB.
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    Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?

    'Note: For 2010 we no longer offer 29r suspension adjusted rigid forks, nor will we allow them to be used on any new 29r frames we build. Doing so will void the warranty on the front triangle of your frame. We’ve come to the conclusion after nine years of testing and customer feedback that these longer forks have serious engineering shortcomings due to their length. There are several brands of after market suspension adjusted 29r forks currently available; some are hand made steel, others are off-shore carbon. No matter the brand or material, we are not convinced that 29r suspension adjusted forks will have acceptable durability under hard usage due to their extreme length. The currently available blades and forks seem to simply be longer versions of 26” forks without any thought given to the higher loads placed on them. Frame and forks are supposed to work as a unit, with one complementing the other. If we build these forks so they have a somewhat supple ride, they will fail over time. Build them to last, and they will put too much stress on the frame which may cause premature failure'

    The frame builder suggested - 29er non-suspension adjusted - 432mm axle to crown, offset depends on frame

    *Source: Soulcraft site


    What do you think ?
    Is there any carbon fork out there with 432mm axle to crown spec. available ?
    My current Vicious Cycles steel fork is 445mm. I need a carbon fork to lower the weight of my 29er.
    Last edited by edle; 01-30-2013 at 08:58 AM. Reason: add info.

  2. #2
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    hmm, interesting. I wonder what some of the frame builders would have to say in the frame forum... From what I gather perusing the forum there occasionally, most of them are using a more "29er" specific tubing for their rigid forks, as they are aware of the engineering "shortcomings" of just using the same tubes but longer.
    I would say that if you're going to be using a rigid fork for "hard" usage, make sure it's built sturdily or get a suspension fork.
    [SIZE=1][/SIZE]

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by edle View Post
    Doing so will void the warranty on the front triangle of your frame.
    SNIP
    Build them to last, and they will put too much stress on the frame which may cause premature failure'
    So what they're really saying is,
    If the fork is strong enough to survive, the frame will fail.
    Therefore, reduce the leverage the fork can exert upon the frame, by using a shorter fork, or find one that will break before the frame does.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by edle View Post
    What do you think ?
    It's a cop out and a crock... and somewhat surprising that a manufacturer would make such a completely ridiculous claim.
    They also can't legally void your warranty just for using a 470mm fork.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    It's a cop out and a crock... and somewhat surprising that a manufacturer would make such a completely ridiculous claim.
    They also can't legally void your warranty just for using a 470mm fork.

    I agree it's a cop out and a crock, but they sure as hell can void your warranty. A bike warranty gives no legal rights or protection whatsoever; the terms of every bike warranty basically say "limited to whether we feel like covering you or not"

  6. #6
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    Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?

    I guess I'll be killed on mine soon ...

  7. #7
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    I don't know if I buy this, I know many people (including myself) who have beat the crap out of their rigid 29ers on rough terrain for years with no ill effects.

    Soulcraft must have their reasons but is seems to me the big manufacturers like 9er, Salsa, Kona, etc would have put an end to the sale of suspension corrected rigid forks years ago if durability was a problem that couldn't be mitigated.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I guess I'll be killed on mine soon ...
    I will be OK. One fork is 465 and another 500mm. Six years on one frame/fork combo and 5 on the other.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    I agree it's a cop out and a crock, but they sure as hell can void your warranty. A bike warranty gives no legal rights or protection whatsoever; the terms of every bike warranty basically say "limited to whether we feel like covering you or not"
    Not true at all.
    The Federal Trade Commission regulates what manufacturers can and can't do regarding warranties. The intent is to prevent manufacturers from claiming that they offer a warranty, which adds percieved value to a consumer, then void it for any reason they feel like.
    Part of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act deals specifically with the use of aftermarket parts. If a manufacturer wants to claim that that a failure is not covered because of use of an aftermarket part, the burden of proof is on them to establish that the aftermarket part directly caused the failure.
    In practice they can say whatever they want, because nobody is going to sue for enforcement if they do something illegal regarding the warranty on something as low-cost as a bike frame.
    Also, people tend to believe BS statements like that, even though it would be illegal for them to "void a warranty" for use of a 470mm fork.
    It is exactly that sort of statement and practice that provided the motivation for the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.
    More reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I will be OK. One fork is 465 and another 500mm. Six years on one frame/fork combo and 5 on the other.
    Pretty sure that has a lot to do with riding style ... Some people are just prone to breaking bikes.

    Give them something made of 1/4" plate, and they'll find a way to break it.

  11. #11
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    This is easy - just use a rigid fork designed for a 26 inch wheel. Duh. For instance, the White Brothers Rock Solid comes in a 425 or 445 AC measurement.

  12. #12
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    Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?

    Maybe what they meant to say is that a 470er will blow up one of their handmade works of art, but everyone else is just fine. Luckily, I only ride mass produced stuff and I've never had an issue.

  13. #13
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    This is easy - just use a rigid fork designed for a 26 inch wheel. Duh. For instance, the White Brothers Rock Solid comes in a 425 or 445 AC measurement.
    26 have a shorter offset don't they?

    The length argument seems to just be one makers opinion. Every other builder has always had this option and would advise their clients if they thought it important. 432 seems very short too. How does a big tyre fit, especially if you want to run a mud guard?

  14. #14
    Bite Me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Not true at all.
    The Federal Trade Commission regulates what manufacturers can and can't do regarding warranties. The intent is to prevent manufacturers from claiming that they offer a warranty, which adds percieved value to a consumer, then void it for any reason they feel like.
    Part of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act deals specifically with the use of aftermarket parts. If a manufacturer wants to claim that that a failure is not covered because of use of an aftermarket part, the burden of proof is on them to establish that the aftermarket part directly caused the failure.
    In practice they can say whatever they want, because nobody is going to sue for enforcement if they do something illegal regarding the warranty on something as low-cost as a bike frame.
    Also, people tend to believe BS statements like that, even though it would be illegal for them to "void a warranty" for use of a 470mm fork.
    It is exactly that sort of statement and practice that provided the motivation for the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.
    More reading.
    Not quite correct - a manufacturer can offer a full warranty, a limited warranty or no warranty at all. If they offer a limited warranty they can set out whatever the scope of the warranty might be, either limited by time, usage, geographic area, etc. The only requirement is that the limitations be clearly and conspicuously disclosed. There are also state warranty laws that may be more restrictive, but Mag-Moss would not prohibit a bike manufacturer from refusing to warrant a bike frame from damage caused by non-approved parts.

    Other than the legal lesson, I think the statements about 470mm forks being unsuitable for 29ers are bogus - lots of manufacturers are running them stock on their fully rigids and SS - Kona P2 comes to mind.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
    Not quite correct - a manufacturer can offer a full warranty, a limited warranty or no warranty at all. If they offer a limited warranty they can set out whatever the scope of the warranty might be, either limited by time, usage, geographic area, etc. The only requirement is that the limitations be clearly and conspicuously disclosed.
    Here's the warranty:
    We like to judge each case as it comes, but basically if we made a mistake or flubbed something, we will cover it. If you caused the problem, we don?t cover it. Here are some things we absolutely will not cover:
    • Rust damage
    • Crash damage
    • Chain suck damage (jamming of the chain between crank and frame)
    • Abuse, such as riding your hardtail like a full suspension bike, or reliving your BMX days by jumping or doing big drops.
    • Using rotors larger than 160mm on our frames or forks.

    Bottom line is that Soulcraft frames and forks are built to be ridden hard, but not with reckless abandon. Use common sense and treat your equipment with care and respect!
    This "warranty" does not even meet the required designation as to what type of warranty it is.
    By itself it is illegal, and there is no mention of fork length even if it were.
    This practice (of offering vague "warranties" that the manufacter decides not to honor on any whim) is pervasive, but the law is clear. The MMA did not immediately do away with all the "warranty" abuses manufacturers perpetrate on consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
    Other than the legal lesson, I think the statements about 470mm forks being unsuitable for 29ers are bogus - lots of manufacturers are running them stock on their fully rigids and SS - Kona P2 comes to mind.
    Yep... the statements are laughable.
    I wonder which 26" fork the Niner carbon fork is a "longer version" of.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    26 have a shorter offset don't they?
    The White Brothers 445 A to C fork has 44mm offset. That's the same as the 29er version.

  17. #17
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    Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?

    Taken another way, their statement means that after 9 years they couldn't figure out how to build a reliable fork/frame combo with 470mm A-C. I'd be kind of embarrassed by that fact, especially given others' success at it. Instead of owning it, they blame some inherent physical phenomenon that can't be overcome and which others only pretend to.
    Good reason not to buy a Soulcraft.


    Too harsh?
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-01-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  18. #18
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    The White Brothers 445 A to C fork has 44mm offset. That's the same as the 29er version.

    Seems you are correct...I must have one of the few with a shorter rake, wish it was larger as I am using it with a 29er wheel.

  19. #19
    I like rigid MTB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    Seems you are correct...I must have one of the few with a shorter rake, wish it was larger as I am using it with a 29er wheel.
    The 445mm AC is more than enough for the 29er wheel.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Good reason not to buy a Soulcraft.
    That's how I read it.

  21. #21
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    This is crazy. So would a suspension fork void the warranty, or a suspension fork locked out?
    I have never heard of, nor read, anything about a frame failing due to the fork
    I agree, a reason not to buy Soulcraft.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Here's the warranty:
    We like to judge each case as it comes, but basically if we made a mistake or flubbed something, we will cover it. If you caused the problem, we don?t cover it. Here are some things we absolutely will not cover:
    • Rust damage
    • Crash damage
    • Chain suck damage (jamming of the chain between crank and frame)
    • Abuse, such as riding your hardtail like a full suspension bike, or reliving your BMX days by jumping or doing big drops.
    • Using rotors larger than 160mm on our frames or forks.

    Bottom line is that Soulcraft frames and forks are built to be ridden hard, but not with reckless abandon. Use common sense and treat your equipment with care and respect!
    Wait, so Soulcraft frames aren't only too weak to handle a 29er rigid fork (which seems from their website, they sell) but a larger rotor than a 160 will void your warranty? I will NOT buy a bike from them. Its like openly admitting the bikes you build aren't even as strong as the Magna you can pick up at Wallyworld. After all, you have as much luck getting either one warrantied if it breaks while you're riding your "mountain" bike. I wonder if a Magna can handle 180mm rotors?

  23. #23
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    This is crazy. So would a suspension fork void the warranty, or a suspension fork locked out?
    I have never heard of, nor read, anything about a frame failing due to the fork
    I agree, a reason not to buy Soulcraft.
    Pre-suspension we always wanted the fork to be weaker than the frame. Cheaper and easier to replace the fork, and I bent more than a few.

    Now, when you see a frame with a bent/cracked/broken down tube and/or top tube, and the fork is OK, the fork was stronger than the frame.
    mtbtires.com
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  24. #24
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    Quote Originally Posted by edle View Post
    The 445mm AC is more than enough for the 29er wheel.
    sure...the original spec was 435 though. I was talking rake in the last comment.

  25. #25
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    I've been riding one almost 2 years...

    I've been riding this 470mm Ritchey carbon fork for 2 years or more on a 21 inch framed Rockhopper Expert SS. I am 6'2" and 230-235 lbs and have had no ill effect at all. Usually 20-30mm either way from stock A/C isn't TOO radical. Can you change the geometry? yes. Would you want to ride something all squirrely from too much rake, etc? I hope not. But what is being proposed here as a fork change shouldn't make anything goofy. It's not a huge change in A/C. The ONLY problem I have ever had as a result of running this 470mm carbon fork (basically mimicking a 100mm fork w/20mm sag @ 470mm) is feeling a little uncomfortable from time to time because when people get too close to the fork they start touching their peepee.

    That's a terrible disclaimer! And I thought all the "Booooo, You could die if you dont do this or that" Warnings that always come with carbon parts were bad. At least they are WARRANTED warnings. You should pay heed to such...mind your torque specs, don't super-huck with a 3 gram stem, etc. The rotor size, I can follow simply because of clearance of frame or fork with a larger diameter rotor. That spec isn't so uncommon (Max rotor size) for some frames and forks...the rotor simply won't fit in the chainstays with sufficient clearance to account for flex and such. But this fork business/warranty condition simply just says "Thanks for your money, now f*ck off because we may or may not like your choice of forks as some might be constructed well enough as to fold up our frames so we may or may not acknowledge your complaint." It's incredibly vague...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Any rigid fork with 470mm axle to crown measurement  is not good to your bike ?!?!?!?-mr-t-left.jpg  

    Last edited by God's Favorite Bike; 02-02-2013 at 10:31 PM.
    Where there is choice, there is misery...

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