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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Diminishing returns, obviously. Running would be lighter still, and totally unsuccessful
    Yeah... jus' joshin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Jerome Clementz wins Enduros on 26"

    Nico Vouilloz and Fabian Barel prefer 27.5"
    It's not surprising that picking former pro downhill and enduro riders is going to bias selection toward smaller wheel size.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    A few Euros on 29", but certainly not popular among them (I exclude Tracy Mosely
    and Kulhavy and Sauser... 1st and 2nd at Ballyhoura and 1st and 3rd overall in the recent Euro Marathon Championships.
    and Absalon... greatest XC rider of all time and currently CRUSHING the XCO standings. Dood has a 310 point lead on Schurter!!!
    If you look at XC euro riders, far more than a few are on 29" wheels.
    I've got nothing against any wheel size, but I'm allergic to hype like, "650b will outsell 29ers in a year, maaaan!!!"
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  2. #402
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Yeah... jus' joshin'.


    It's not surprising that picking former pro downhill and enduro riders is going to bias selection toward smaller wheel size.


    and Kulhavy and Sauser... 1st and 2nd at Ballyhoura and 1st and 3rd overall in the recent Euro Marathon Championships.
    and Absalon... greatest XC rider of all time and currently CRUSHING the XCO standings. Dood has a 310 point lead on Schurter!!!
    If you look at XC euro riders, far more than a few are on 29" wheels.
    I've got nothing against any wheel size, but I'm allergic to hype like, "650b will outsell 29ers in a year, maaaan!!!"
    XC and Enduro too different to compare. As far as XC, now that Absalon has moved up to 29", is anybody left on 26"? I would guess that Schurter would race 29" if he could fit on them the way he prefers. He likes a radical old school bike fit: seat height many cm above handlebar, his legs not long enough to achieve this on 29". Rider height and wheel size do correlate.

    All 3 wheels have seen success in Enduro. Varies according to rider and course

    As far as DH, 27.5 seems to be slowly pushing 26 aside as default mount. 29" only used on the few courses where its advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
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  3. #403
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    I just bought my first bike in 20 yrs since my 93 Joshua. 29r.........

  4. #404
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    I've said it many times and I shall state it again. 29er market especially this over 120mm needs parts dedicated for 29ers:

    1. Wider flange spacing and 36 spokes, in order to make wheels lighter on lighter rims.
    2. A little bit more broader stanchions on forks- if 26 has 34 then 29 must have 36 etc.
    3. Keep 20mm front axle on anything more than pure xc 100mm forks.
    4. 29er specific 12% lighter gearing.
    5. Short CS 430-440mm on anything outsider XC
    6. ....

    If failing to comply with the above one never get a satisfactory product.

  5. #405
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    I've said it many times and I shall state it again. 29er market especially this over 120mm needs parts dedicated for 29ers:


    4. 29er specific 12% lighter gearing.

    .
    I assume you mean lighter than what would be used for 26" wheels

    This is obvious and intuitive AFAIC. If rider is moving from 26" to 29" and wants to maintain the same feel and effort, gearing down is necessary due to larger wheel diameter

    Nonetheless, many people disagree and strenuously argue "there is no such thing as 29'er gearing." If a bike shop held to that theory, they would have many unhappy average Joe and Jill rider customers

    On a related note, bike shops FINALLY learned to gear down road bikes to satisfy the market of the majority of consumers. 53-49T double chainrings have been supplanted by 50-34T or 50-36T compact chainrings. So older, female and other nonracing riders can get close to the range of triples without the weight and self-esteem penalty
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  6. #406
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    29 will only fail due to marketing $ allocation. I have friends that are new to the sport who tell me the shops are recommending 650B... A couple of these guys described their intended riding as XC/fire road... That screams 29 HT or 100mm or less suspension as ideal. Others have said they were told 29ers are only good as fire road bikes... I beat my 26" friends down the hill in most conditions (except true padded up DH). My consistent reply is "ride both and get back to me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Nonetheless, many people disagree and strenuously argue "there is no such thing as 29'er gearing." If a bike shop held to that theory, they would have many unhappy average Joe and Jill rider customers
    These are two different things. The difference between 26 and 29 is 10% or about 2/3 of one gear. That's a simple fact. There is no such thing as "29er gearing", that's also a fact. Gearing is gearing, the parts aren't specific to the rim. These aren't theories either and bike shops don't "hold" to them.

    ...and lastly, agreeing with David Copperfield...

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    On a related note, bike shops FINALLY learned to gear down road bikes to satisfy the market of the majority of consumers. 53-49T double chainrings have been supplanted by 50-34T or 50-36T compact chainrings. So older, female and other nonracing riders can get close to the range of triples without the weight and self-esteem penalty
    Just now discovering compact, dwt? Compact is used commonly in racing, it is not targeted at females and older, slower riders. Those riders would be better off with lower gearing still and are targeted by 11.32 cogsets. You've heard of those, right? The road set would be well served by a 30-44 double. I've used one converted from a triple and it's great.

    You are so pretentious yet uninformed.

  8. #408
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    I think the gearing issue has shifted with the options of (eg Shimano XT Double) three different geared Cranks and more recently the introduction of mainstream 1 x systems with options of different sized front rings.

    Obviously regarding noobs walking in to a shop and being pushed any type of bike the gearing may be more of a problem unless the LBS will swapout a certain crank for another.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    29 will only fail due to marketing $ allocation. I have friends that are new to the sport who tell me the shops are recommending 650B... A couple of these guys described their intended riding as XC/fire road... That screams 29 HT or 100mm or less suspension as ideal. Others have said they were told 29ers are only good as fire road bikes... I beat my 26" friends down the hill in most conditions (except true padded up DH). My consistent reply is "ride both and get back to me."
    When I go shopping for a car, I first do my homework. I find out exactly what I want before I ever go to a dealer. When I finally show up at the dealer, most of the times I know more about the car than the sales person does.

    The same thing goes for bike shopping. Most sales people will try to sell you something that they have in stock, regardless of what your needs are. They will sometimes even try to sell you a bike that does not even fit you right (1 size too big or too small) just because that is what they are trying to unload from their inventory.

    If you are here on this forum reading these posts, it is because you are a real MTB enthusiast! Do yourself a favor if you have not done it already; Get 2 bikes! Buy a full suspension 26er or 27.5er with 5" or more travel, and a 100mm travel 29er hard tail. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bikes. They are very different and yet compliment each other very well. You don't even have to spend big dollars on either one, because you will then also have a backup bike if one of them has a breakdown.

  10. #410
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post


    Just now discovering compact, dwt? Compact is used commonly in racing, it is not targeted at females and older, slower riders. Those riders would be better off with lower gearing still and are targeted by 11.32 cogsets. You've heard of those, right? The road set would be well served by a 30-44 double. I've used one converted from a triple and it's great.

    You are so pretentious yet uninformed.
    I've been using compact chainrings on my
    road bike since midi 2000's. The point I inartfully didn't make was that compact chainrings are now stock on new double chainring bikes replacing 53-39. I ride with 11-30 cassette. Early on
    with compact wide range cogsets starting with 11 and ending in the high 20's or low to mid 30's were not ubiquitous as they are now. The 34:30 will get me up the steepest inclines in my home county seated. The 50:11 is a slightly taller gear than 53:12 which many old schoolers still ride with. If you are hammering with a group of those guys 50:12 is too low.
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  11. #411
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    FWIW, I'm in the market now for a MTB. In the past two days I have visited three stores. #1 is a Trek only and the dealer/owner extolled the virtues of 29. #2 is a Trek/Specialized/Kona dealer and his nearly asleep salesman didn't say anything about wheel size. He just wanted me to go away so he could sit down. #3 is a Cannondale/Giant dealer. He favored 27.5 (Giant). When I leaned toward the Cannondales, he went to selling components, not wheel size.
    Alan M
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    2014 Jamis Dragon 29 Sport
    2013 Cannondale Quick 4
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  12. #412
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    These are two different things. The difference between 26 and 29 is 10% or about 2/3 of one gear. That's a simple fact. There is no such thing as "29er gearing", that's also a fact. Gearing is gearing, the parts aren't specific to the rim. These aren't theories either and bike shops don't "hold" to them.

    .
    Whatever your math says is correct, I'm sure. But it takes no rocket surgeon to understand that chainring gearing designed to be optimal for 26" bikes is not optimal for 29" bikes. Which is why Shimano came out with "29'er friendly" Deore M610 group.


    http://twentynineinches.com/2013/02/...ew-deore-group


    An on the ball bike shop would stock this group on most 29'ers and even 27.5'ers" to meet the expectations of the majority of riders. Racers and hammerheads like you can always gear up.
    Last edited by dwt; 08-13-2014 at 10:23 AM.
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  13. #413
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    Nonetheless, many people disagree and strenuously argue "there is no such thing as 29'er gearing." If a bike shop held to that theory, they would have many unhappy average Joe and Jill rider customers
    I think this held back Shimano for many years with the 2x market for 29ers. SRAM got it. Stock gearing on my old 9 speed triple (Shimano LX/XT) with 26" wheels was 18.2" - 94.4". Stock gearing on my newer 10 speed double (SRAM X7/X9) 29er is 16.9" - 90.4", or about 5% lower than the 26" bike.

    The translation is that there are 1 or 2 hills around here that challenged me on the 26" bike that I consistently ride up on the 29er.

  14. #414
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    But it takes no rocket surgeon to understand that chainring gearing designed to be optimal for 26" bikes is not optimal for 29" bikes.
    Which is why Shimano came out with "29'er friendly" Deore M610 group.
    With trepidation I'll jump I to this shitstorm.
    1. There isn't much that gives me confidence that gearing developed prior to 29ers was "designed to be optimal" in any way. I think it covered he practical utility of most people within the limitations of the application and wasn't thought much of again until relatively recently.
    2. Factors besides wheels size affect final drive ratio and input:response of a drive system.
    3. Unless you are in the highest or lowest gear in an MTB drive train, you have more than enough adjustability to account for the difference in wheel size.
    4. Most drive systems being sold these days were developed after the proliferation of 29ers and so, one would assume, factored that in.
    5. The availability of a product with a catchy marketing tag line should not be used to infer than any engineering or scientific rationale is responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    An on the ball bike shop would stock this group on most 29'ers and even 27.5'ers" to meet the expectations of the majority of riders. Racers and hammerheads like you can always gear up.
    A "29er gearing" group is further from duplicating 26" drive ratios on a 27.5 than a "26" gearing" group, if either of those things existed. If you think that the above-linked group should be spec'd on 27.5 it pokes a hole in your "wheelsize-appropriate gearing" argument, I think.
    Bike shops are rarely if ever responsible for the specs of the bikes they sell.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  15. #415
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    With trepidation I'll jump I to this shitstorm.
    1. There isn't much that gives me confidence that gearing developed prior to 29ers was "designed to be optimal" in any way. I think it covered he practical utility of most people within the limitations of the application and wasn't thought much of again until relatively recently.
    2. Factors besides wheels size affect final drive ratio and input:response of a drive system.
    3. Unless you are in the highest or lowest gear in an MTB drive train, you have more than enough adjustability to account for the difference in wheel size.
    4. Most drive systems being sold these days were developed after the proliferation of 29ers and so, one would assume, factored that in.
    5. The availability of a product with a catchy marketing tag line should not be used to infer than any engineering or scientific rationale is responsible.
    Ml
    A "29er gearing" group is further from duplicating 26" drive ratios on a 27.5 than a "26" gearing" group, if either of those things existed. If you think that the above-linked group should be spec'd on 27.5 it pokes a hole in your "wheelsize-appropriate gearing" argument, I think.
    Bike shops are rarely if ever responsible for the specs of the bikes they sell.
    I'll grant, "optimal"is the wrong word. But the 44-32-24 triple was sold on 26" mtn bikes for how many years? With that gearing & 26"wheels, the 32T ring was the "sweet spot" especially as cassettes with larger sprockets for low gears started coming out. The typical rider could ride the middle ring predominately & only had to shift down or up on special occasions: steep climbs, long moderate descents.

    That gearing is not "friendly" for 29'ers in the sense of it required more middle to small ring shifting. It's not just 1X riders who think that front der. shifting is one of the the least pleasurable and reliable aspects of riding.
    Anyone who has dropped a chain or miss timed a downshift to granny knows this well


    Pissing and moaning about that gearing has been a forum topic for years. In a bizarre move, Shimano and SRAM came out with high geared doubles just as 29'ers were beginning to dominate the market. Meanwhile Middleburn in UK has sold cranks with 40-30-20T for a few years marketed to 29'er riders. Last year Shimano came out with Deore 610 group with "29'er friendly" gearing.

    http://twentynineinches.com/2013/02/...w-deore-group/

    Just to show I'm not pulling stuff out of my butt
    Last edited by dwt; 08-17-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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  16. #416
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    When I bought 26" wheeled bikes with 48/38/28 x 13-28 (1987) and 42/32/22 x 11-30 (1997) drivetrains, I'm sure the gearing was considered appropriate at the time. And even up until 2004, 9 speed cassettes commonly had a 32t granny cog. Gearing has been getting progressively easier the whole time I've owned bikes.

  17. #417
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    When I bought 26" wheeled bikes with 48/38/28 x 13-28 (1987) and 42/32/22 x 11-30 (1997) drivetrains, I'm sure the gearing was considered appropriate at the time. And even up until 2004, 9 speed cassettes commonly had a 32t granny cog. Gearing has been getting progressively easier the whole time I've owned bikes.
    IIRC, the high gears in 1987 were popular with XC racers who used XTR cranks. But Ned Overend later endorsed the smaller "compact " rings, so they became popular and then stock. I agree that gearing has been getting lower , with the exception of 2 ring cranks, where no matter what cassette
    you used, the stock 2 chainrings were too high geared, especially for 29'ers. Many riders like myself would modify triples and front mech limit screws to create "ghetto" doubles: replace big ring with bash, and use middle 32T as "big " ring with limit screw set to stop there; retain granny for gnarly climbs


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  18. #418
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Last year Shimano came out with Deore 610 group with "29'er friendly" gearing.

    http://twentynineinches.com/2013/02/...w-deore-group/

    Just to show I'm not pulling stuff out of my butt
    Gearing has been going down steadily for years... attributing that to 29ers is a stretch.
    When part of your argument is, "Shimano tried to sell me one," I have to shake my head.
    The difference is almost always less than one shift on your rear d. Re-engineered drive trains doesn't seem to me to be the answer to that issue... in the very unlikely case that that's a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  19. #419
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Gearing has been going down steadily for years... attributing that to 29ers is a stretch.
    When part of your argument is, "Shimano tried to sell me one," I have to shake my head.
    The difference is almost always less than one shift on your rear d. Re-engineered drive trains doesn't seem to me to be the answer to that issue... in the very unlikely case that that's a problem.
    Just quoting an article in twentynineinches.com with which I agree. Post a comment there, why don't you?

    Compact drivetrains work with road bikes. Why not mountain bikes?


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  20. #420
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    IIRC, the high gears in 1987 were popular with XC racers who used XTR cranks. But Ned Overend later endorsed the smaller "compact " rings, so they became popular and then stock. I agree that gearing has been getting lower , with the exception of 2 ring cranks, where no matter what cassette
    you used, the stock 2 chainrings were too high geared, especially for 29'ers. Many riders like myself would modify triples and front mech limit screws to create "ghetto" doubles: replace big ring with bash, and use middle 32T as "big " ring with limit screw set to stop there; retain granny for gnarly climbs


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    No XTR back then. The Deore lineup was XT, DX, LX. Mine was a LX-spec bike. IIRC, the XT level did have a lighter gear (smaller ring?). I'm traveling now, and don't have the old catalog handy.

    It took the big players too long to figure out 2x cranks, and Shimano was really bad about it when they moved to 10 speed. Most people buying/building new AM bikes are going 1x. I will on my next one.

  21. #421
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    Nutty old thread ...

    I have always had the sense that bike companies spend all their marketing $$$ on cannibalizing market share from each other instead of growing it overall. They are marketing to people who already mountain bike. So ... there is a natural incentive for them to hype the "newer" thing so we will be more apt to add another bike to our stables.

    Having said that, everyone learned a big lesson from 29ers, and they are now applying it to 650B and fat bikes. Some people think that the growth of 650B directly attacks 29ers. I don't think so, 26 was the norm and 29er users already have big wheels.

    At the end of the day NONE of these standards will go "away". Heck, You can still buy tires for 27" Schwinns from the 70s. I don't think anyone is in danger of not being able to get 26" parts for the next 20 years.

    In any case, Everyone has figured out that bigger wheels roll better, between 29er, FAT and 650B, the bias is BIGGER. I strongly suspect that this will cause the production of new 26er BIKES to dwindle.

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    Giant was never able to get its Maestro suspension properly dialed in with 29 inch wheels. With 650Bs, they have been able to correct for the larger (compared to 26 inch) wheel size. With 29ers they just couldn't make it work. Thus, for Giant (a company that had trouble figuring out 29ers with the way they run their full suspension setup), it makes sense to go all in on 650B.

    Although, don't be surprised if Giant keeps a few engineers hammering away at 29ers and in a couple years they announce some new models in 29 once they have fixed their suspension issues.

  23. #423
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    [QUOTE=evasive;Most people buying/building new AM bikes are going 1x. I will on my next one.[/QUOTE]

    Now that they have cogs as big as chainrings ( 42T) 1X has a broader appeal. I run. 1x10 on my 650b trail bike 30T Wolf Tooth direct mount ring, 11-40 cassette. There is still terrain I climb where I miss granny but not too much. Don't miss or need a higher gear


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    Greetings
    All this gearing talk aside doesn't change the fact, that 700c(29er) wheels are heavier, as well as weaker. My niner is sitting in the garage, and I've been riding my 26er, which in my opinion handles better, and is more responsive. I'm also not jumping on the 650b bandwagon.
    Regards

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    My 29er HT had all the standard 27 gears, with many repeats as U all know.
    I always used the same 5 or 6 gears.

    I stripped the front down, got me a 1X9 now, I still use the same 5 or 6 gears :P

  26. #426
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    Scott makes a full travel carbon bike with a lever actuated lockout, I think one lever locks out both ends. I wouldn't count on any type of automatic susp anytime soon, there might be something out there but it's not legit. If your a taller guy the 29er will fit better and give you a lower center of gravity, more confidence and yes more stability.

    Your bike is a nice starter bike tho!, I started on a fully rigid steel 26er with crappy rim brakes, road bike geometry and 1.9 tires, circa 1988.

  27. #427
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickle View Post

    Your bike is a nice starter bike tho!, I started on a fully rigid steel 26er with crappy rim brakes, road bike geometry and 1.9 tires, circa 1988.
    Me too. Also: Non indexed shifters. Plus, the crappy side-pull rim brakes just didn't work and some rocky descents we don't think twice about now were dangerous then.


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    I bet we can't get actual sales numbers but it would be interesting to hear from those folks who work in Bike shops. Are they seeing more 27.5 or 29er's roll out the door?

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_m View Post
    I bet we can't get actual sales numbers but it would be interesting to hear from those folks who work in Bike shops. Are they seeing more 27.5 or 29er's roll out the door?
    My shop says the Tallboy LT was the best selling bike last year. Now its the Bronson (Denver area). But, Specialized Enduros and LTs are still selling pretty well. I bought a TBLTc. If I had to do it over again, I'd buy it again

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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    One thing to think about is: picture yourself as a clueless newbie walking into a bike in the next year or two. "Here's three wheel sizes," the sales guys says, "the big one is good at some stuff but bad at others; the smallest is the opposite, and there's this size in the middle." I'd bet a lot of people will just hedge their bets and go with the middle compromise. Just my theory.
    The only reason I would disagree with this is that I don't see many bikes with three wheel choices that are cheap. Yes, people go into bikes stores all the time and get talked into something. Start talking about bikes 2k and up and consumers tend to do more research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom-Cat View Post
    It sucks when a small climb sneaks up on you on a trail, and there is not really enough time to fumble for the front and rear lockout, which kind of makes the climb sloppy at least with me it does, because when I stand up and pedal harder to go up the climb the suspension bounces to much from the force...
    Experience on the trails will teach you when to lock/unlock. And technique will let you climb without bobbing too much if you work at it.

    And the middle-position on many shocks does an admirable job of limiting bob while still offering compliance.

    650/29 - here in norcal, seeing a lot of 650's in the "drool" price range, but still 29ers at doable prices and 26 at entry level. SC Bronson is a good example of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    650/29 - here in norcal, seeing a lot of 650's in the "drool" price range, but still 29ers at doable prices and 26 at entry level. SC Bronson is a good example of that.
    In the UK just based on the groups I know of and see (so just a small example) There are two who have just purchased 29ers (hardtails) and one who has purchased a 650b (Full Suss). They all rode 26" retro wheels before.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Me too. Also: Non indexed shifters. Plus, the crappy side-pull rim brakes just didn't work and some rocky descents we don't think twice about now were dangerous then.


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    +1. Sometimes I wonder how I survived, not being a particularly gifted athlete. But people rode Moab on that sh!t and are still alive to talk about it. Bottom line is that equipment makes a huge difference in how you ride and enjoy the trails . So nowadays if you have the cash you can spec your bike with wheels/tires you like , wheel size, tire width, tubed or tubeless;the right amount of suspension (or none); drivetrain; and geo down to mms. I for one just love all those variables


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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Me too. Also: Non indexed shifters. Plus, the crappy side-pull rim brakes just didn't work and some rocky descents we don't think twice about now were dangerous then.


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    +1
    lol... good to know you agree with yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    He he.


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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    lol... good to know you agree with yourself.

    sometimes its hard to remember what you posted depending on which personality is in control at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post

    If you are here on this forum reading these posts, it is because you are a real MTB enthusiast! Do yourself a favor if you have not done it already; Get 2 bikes! Buy a full suspension 26er or 27.5er with 5" or more travel, and a 100mm travel 29er hard tail. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bikes. They are very different and yet compliment each other very well. You don't even have to spend big dollars on either one, because you will then also have a backup bike if one of them has a breakdown.
    This makes perfect sense, and I am excited to add a smaller wheel fs bike to compliment my HT 29er!

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    I've done sort of the same - have a 110 FS (XC) and a 130 HT (semi AM). Important to avoid overlap if you want to be eager to enjoy both. Thinking about an AM FS next, will have to go small wheel to keep short CS length.
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    We decide what wheels bike manufactures will make. In fact our money has a lot more power than we give it credit.

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    Last edited by Saddle Up; 09-07-2014 at 07:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Thinking about an AM FS next, will have to go small wheel to keep short CS length.
    Surely that's not a necessary these days is it? isn't the Specialized Enduro as short? and im sure ive heard of at least one other bike that had the same length chainstays as a 26er

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Thinking about an AM FS next, will have to go small wheel to keep short CS length.
    No you won't.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Good call, Andrew, Melting. I'm a year out at least, so haven't been shopping with too clear an eye on details:
    E29 - 430cs, 1183wb, 67.5hta
    E650B - 422cs, 1160wb, 65.5hta
    The loss of the front derailleur lets them tighten things up either way.

    Though after riding my XC FS yesterday, I don't know why I really think I need something beefier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Good call, Andrew, Melting. I'm a year out at least, so haven't been shopping with too clear an eye on details:
    E29 - 430cs, 1183wb, 67.5hta
    E650B - 422cs, 1160wb, 65.5hta
    The loss of the front derailleur lets them tighten things up either way.

    Though after riding my XC FS yesterday, I don't know why I really think I need something beefier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Good call, Andrew, Melting. I'm a year out at least, so haven't been shopping with too clear an eye on details:
    E29 - 430cs, 1183wb, 67.5hta
    E650B - 422cs, 1160wb, 65.5hta
    The loss of the front derailleur lets them tighten things up either way.

    Though after riding my XC FS yesterday, I don't know why I really think I need something beefier.
    Something like an Enduro 29 would be at the other end of the suspension travel spectrum. Not too much travel, not too little. It all really depends on the trails you ride.
    With an Enduro you would be able to ride lift access trails too. The Niner WFO is also a good bike in that category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post
    Something like an Enduro 29 would be at the other end of the suspension travel spectrum. Not too much travel, not too little. It all really depends on the trails you ride.
    With an Enduro you would be able to ride lift access trails too. The Niner WFO is also a good bike in that category.
    Well, that solves it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    Well, that solves it...
    Well for people who didn't understand that, I meant that the Enduro has not as much suspension travel as a freeride/downhill bike, but it has more travel than a XC bike. The Enduro is in the middle, not too much, not too little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post
    Well for people who didn't understand that, I meant that the Enduro has not as much suspension travel as a freeride/downhill bike, but it has more travel than a XC bike. The Enduro is in the middle, not too much, not too little.
    but depends on the trails you ride....
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    ...also depends on how you ride them. Crawling/bouncing down, I'm fine on the 110XC. As my speed and skill increase, something slacker and plusher would probably be wise.
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    sometimes its hard to remember what you posted depending on which personality is in control at the time.
    True dat


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    Give it a few years and I'm guessing that 26" wheels will make a comeback. I'm on a Santa Cruz Tallboy LTc 29er and I love how it just rolls over everything. I demo'd quite a few 650b's before deciding on the Tallboy and just liked how it rode better. Plus I think it carried speed better on little rolling trails. But I'm also 6'2" so maybe I'm more comfortable on a 29er than someone who is 5'8".

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by EncinitasRider View Post
    Give it a few years and I'm guessing that 26" wheels will make a comeback.
    lol
    along with rim brakes and friction shifters, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    lol
    along with rim brakes and friction shifters, right?
    What's wrong with rim brakes? Oh wait, this isn't a forum for roadies! Someone in marketing will decide that 26ers were just "more playful" and "more flickable" and bring 'em back. It will happen...but this time with electronic shifting and electronic suspension!

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by EncinitasRider View Post
    What's wrong with rim brakes? Oh wait, this isn't a forum for roadies! Someone in marketing will decide that 26ers were just "more playful" and "more flickable" and bring 'em back. It will happen...but this time with electronic shifting and electronic suspension!
    Nothing wrong with rim brakes.
    Not a bad attempt on the marketing idea, but far flung.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by EncinitasRider View Post
    What's wrong with rim brakes? Oh wait, this isn't a forum for roadies! Someone in marketing will decide that 26ers were just "more playful" and "more flickable" and bring 'em back. It will happen...but this time with electronic shifting and electronic suspension!
    26" will never again have the glory it once had. No marketing will bring it back in any significant force.
    27.5 is simply better for general population riding general trails.
    Last edited by jazzanova; 09-09-2014 at 02:59 PM.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Nothing wrong with rim brakes.
    Except on mountain bikes circa 1990 they didn't work reliably or effectively in technical terrain and mud. Not enough stopping power. Then V-brakes came along, an improved rim brake that had stopping power but poor modulation. Finally disc brakes solved bothy stopping and modulating and rim brakes are history unless you have, as I do, an old frame with no disc tabs.

    The question now is can disc brakes enter the road bike world? They would fix the problem of rim brake pads not working well on carbon rims, and mud and muck in cyclocross. But then the weight issue. Log into Road Bike Review forums and see the debate


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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Except on mountain bikes circa 1990 they didn't work reliably or effectively in technical terrain and mud. Not enough stopping power. Then V-brakes came along, an improved rim brake that had stopping power but poor modulation. Finally disc brakes solved bothy stopping and modulating and rim brakes are history unless you have, as I do, an old frame with no disc tabs.

    The question now is can disc brakes enter the road bike world? They would fix the problem of rim brake pads not working well on carbon rims, and mud and muck in cyclocross. But then the weight issue. Log into Road Bike Review forums and see the debate


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    Wel... I wasn't gonna say it, but you did an admirable job.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  58. #458
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    26" will never again have the glory it once had. No marketing will bring it back in any significant force.
    This is true IMO, and the recurring lame attempts at humor in making this claim weren't funny last year and are much less funny now.


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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Nothing wrong with rim brakes.
    Except that they suck donkey balls compared to disk brakes (and light, wide rims that disk brakes make possible).

  60. #460
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    26" will never again have the glory it once had. No marketing will bring it back in any significant force.
    27.5 is simply better for general population riding general trails.
    26 will be delegated to jump bikes, fat bikes and size XS trail bikes and size S long travel bikes and that would be perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    The question now is can disc brakes enter the road bike world? They would fix the problem of rim brake pads not working well on carbon rims, and mud and muck in cyclocross. But then the weight issue. Log into Road Bike Review forums and see the debate
    What's wrong with rim brakes... I just did a 26 mile race on very muddy trails hitting a sustained 34+mph on the downhills (on my 26er!) and had absolutely no stopping issues. This is with ceramic surface rims... They honestly stopped just as well as my disc brakes (formula R1's with organic pads). You can build a lighter wheel with rim brakes and they are easier to maintain.
    Killing it with close inspection.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    What's wrong with rim brakes... I just did a 26 mile race on very muddy trails hitting a sustained 34+mph on the downhills (on my 26er!) and had absolutely no stopping issues. This is with ceramic surface rims... They honestly stopped just as well as my disc brakes (formula R1's with organic pads). You can build a lighter wheel with rim brakes and they are easier to maintain.
    Whatever, dood.
    If that was the case they would still be even remotely common.
    Disc brakes come on $149 bikes at WalMart.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  63. #463
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    What's wrong with rim brakes... I just did a 26 mile race on very muddy trails hitting a sustained 34+mph on the downhills (on my 26er!) and had absolutely no stopping issues. This is with ceramic surface rims... They honestly stopped just as well as my disc brakes (formula R1's with organic pads). You can build a lighter wheel with rim brakes and they are easier to maintain.
    That's just great, old timer. There's a retro/vintage forum here. Side pull rim brakes fall into that category at this point in time. The question is whether 26'ers will, and when?



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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    That's just great, old timer. There's a retro/vintage forum here.
    Ouch!

    I know rim brakes are dead but I was just pointing out that they were/are not as bad as some people believe. It seems like they would make more sense for road bikes. I will also say 26ers are as good as dead. 650b is too close in size and I can't see the already congested bike market supporting both. 29ers are obviously not going away anytime soon. Just my $.02
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