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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    ... Kudos to the Giant marketing folks for getting a boatload of free publicity by making silly comments!

    -Walt
    Nailed it. the goal of a new bike rollout is to generate publicity. You don't generate publicity with soft-spoken, pragmatic, deliberative claims. You make bold statements. Bold statements that will excite and engage their dealer network into strongly selling customers that wander into their shops...

  2. #202
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    Sounds like Giant is just tired of the hassle and expense of designing/manufacturing/stocking cycles with two different wheel sizes. Hey, why not just split the middle and convince everyone that a single size is "just right?" Time will tell how this approach will turn out.

    For me, Giant is the Samsung of bike manufacturers. I'll steer clear no matter what size they're pushing at the moment.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    Sounds like Giant is just tired of the hassle and expense of designing/manufacturing/stocking cycles with two different wheel sizes. Hey, why not just split the middle and convince everyone that a single size is "just right?" Time will tell how this approach will turn out.

    For me, Giant is the Samsung of bike manufacturers. I'll steer clear no matter what size they're pushing at the moment.
    So who is the innovative apple of the MTB market for interest sake?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack0207 View Post
    So who is the innovative apple of the MTB market for interest sake?
    Recently i think i would have said Santa Cruz and the Tallboys (possibly still due to 650B's they are churning out every week)

    Then im torn as Specialized arent really at the forefront....THEN they brought out the 155mm Enduro with short chainstays.

    Lapierre have the IE Intellegent suspension thats pretty innovative.

    BUT if your just generally talking then SRAM seem to be innovative....historically 2x10 then 1 x 11.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    BUT if your just generally talking then SRAM seem to be innovative....historically 2x10 then 1 x 11.
    Not sure I would call SRAM innovative for those reasons.
    Double cranksets have been around for decades, nothing groundbreaking there. Folks running from 1x<pick your number> for decades, so nothing groundbreaking there. Even their type 2 clutch used in XX1 was out due to Shimano releasing it first.

  6. #206
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    I bow to your historical knowledge .... im surprised it didnt take off before then.

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    It din't "take off" for a number of reasons, all beyond the purpose of this thread. I just reacted to the fact of calling 1x and 2x cranksets innovative, where 1x has been available since the invention of a modern bicycle, and 2x from the invention of a front derailleur, and both are derived from 3x by simply removing the rings.

    SRAM has had a fair share of (theoretically) meaningful innovations such as HammerSchmidt (didn't take off).

    Producing an affordable, light and reliable gearbox would be called innovative, but there is no XXI money involved and parts don't wear (that fast), so innovation is not in the interest of the manufacturer.

  8. #208
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    [QUOTE=scatterbrained


    As far as the 650b issue. . .. .I can remember all the naysayers back in 04 when I picked up my 29er. . . . . . sounded a lot like this.[/QUOTE]

    This is what I am observing.

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  9. #209
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    This is BMC's test results on the 3 wheel sizes. A bit of a different take than Giant.

    BMC Trail Fox 29 ? First Look - BikeRadar

    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused-1376408169247-5jlmqybslcdl-670-70.png

    Tim

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    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.

  11. #211
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    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent (definitely not miles per hour- LOL). A chart means nothing if it is not clearly defined.

    Greater performance? What is the unit of measure on that? Also notice that there is nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails, or anything relating to agility, flicka-bility, jumps, drops, etc. That is because a 26er would be better for that and it would throw their evaluation off.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent. Greater performance? What is the unit of measure on that? Also notice that there is nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails, or anything relating to agility.
    Yes, but the 29er lines are taller so its better (and this one goes to 11).

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent (definitely not miles per hour- LOL). A chart means nothing if it is not clearly defined.
    It appears that they simply took the 26" bike's performance in each category and made it the baseline (100%). Then ran the 650b and 29" through the same test and compared its performance to the 26". So in the technical downhill test, the 29er had an 8% performance gain over the 26" bike, while the 650b had a 2% performance gain.

    I don't know why the data would be "biased" when BMC was simply doing internal testing to decide which wheel size to build their new models around. What would they have to gain by fudging the numbers? Giant, on the other hand, seems determined to simplify their lineup to a single wheel size and convince riders that it is in their best interest, when in fact the biggest benefactor of a standardized wheel size would be Giant.

  14. #214
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    It appears that they simply took the 26" bike's performance in each category and made it the baseline (100%). Then ran the 650b and 29" through the same test and compared its performance to the 26". So in the technical downhill test, the 29er had an 8% performance gain over the 26" bike, while the 650b had a 2% performance gain.

    I don't know why the data would be "biased" when BMC was simply doing internal testing to decide which wheel size to build their new models around. What would they have to gain by fudging the numbers? Giant, on the other hand, seems determined to simplify their lineup to a single wheel size and convince riders that it is in their best interest, when in fact the biggest benefactor of a standardized wheel size would be Giant.
    Excellent points.
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    It still is a useless chart if the vertical axis is not clearly defined. How are they measuring performance? Just saying 8% better performance is not a quantify-able number. If it said 8% higher mph, or 8% improvement in lap time on a specific course then it would make sense.

    Not clearly defining it is the same thing as saying that this chart shows that the riders are 15% more style-ish when they ride this bike, or they are 8% less interesting because they ride that other bike.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    Not clearly defining it is the same thing as saying that this chart shows that the riders are 15% more style-ish when they ride this bike, or they are 8% less interesting because they ride that other bike.
    True, it would be nice to see exactly what they're measuring (speed or time?), but based on their description they were clearly assessing performance, not style or interesting-ness.

    Company engineers built test mules in 26in, 650b (27.5in) and 29in versions and trialled them back-to-back on the same course. “The 29er had the greatest performance gains over the other wheel sizes for the criteria we were looking at,” said Muller.

  17. #217
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    The vertical axis is apparently speed in percentage.

    http://enduro-mtb.com/wp-content/upl...51-780x544.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
    The vertical axis is apparently speed in percentage.

    http://enduro-mtb.com/wp-content/upl...51-780x544.png
    Aha! The inappropriately-cropped graphic gets you every time.

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    LOL!! Speed percentage, where the 26er is at 100%!! That is so much better. Without that bit of info it would of been useless. OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed. For racing that is great.

    I would still say that this chart is incomplete however. There is still nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails (singletrack), or anything relating to agility, etc. where precise handling is more important over speed. That is where 26er's would be better.

    When I am riding tight singletrack I am usually on the lower 3 or 4 gears (relatively slow speeds). Most of the trails here are not flow-y, with a ton of switchbacks, and are technically slow to navigate through difficult terrain features. I am very often accelerating from an almost standing start more often than not. A 26er is better for these kind of conditions.

    For more open (not as tight and twisty) trails and XC where you carry more momentum and speed, 29er's are the Kings of the trail. The chart also shows that at the best of ideal conditions, a 29er is only 8% faster than a 26er. Again, great for racing but that is not as super important for me. There are some 29er's that are also very good for tight singletrack, so for me that could possibly be the best of both worlds.

    650b just seem like such useless hunk of junk on this chart. Was this chart mainly aimed as a cheap shot at Giant's new 650b philosophy?
    Last edited by blundar; 08-14-2013 at 02:52 PM.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed.

    The chart also shows that at the best of ideal conditions, a 29er is only 8% faster than a 26er. Again, great for racing but that is not as super important for me.
    29ers simply roll over stuff better than 26" and 27.5". You can't argue with that, and if roll over supremacy is not important to you, then smaller wheels are fine. Sure the wheels may be 100 grams heavier, the wheels "flexier", and maybe the frame 2% less stiff (yawn, according to Giant) but the additional weight is worth the reward for me in smile factor.

    8% is a significant number no matter how you slice it up. Speed is one factor, but fun is the other factor. Choose which size you enjoy the best for your terrain. For me, smaller is like going backwards in technology, but that's just me. Sometimes driving the old 1985 4 cylinder Nissan with power nothing and manual transmission is fun for a few days, but then I want my truck back that has all the bells and whistles. Whatever floats your boat!

  21. #221
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    29ers simply roll over stuff better than 26" and 27.5". You can't argue with that, and if roll over supremacy is not important to you, then smaller wheels are fine. Sure the wheels may be 100 grams heavier, the wheels "flexier", and maybe the frame 2% less stiff (yawn, according to Giant) but the additional weight is worth the reward for me in smile factor.

    8% is a significant number no matter how you slice it up. Speed is one factor, but fun is the other factor. Choose which size you enjoy the best for your terrain. For me, smaller is like going backwards in technology, but that's just me. Sometimes driving the old 1985 4 cylinder Nissan with power nothing and manual transmission is fun for a few days, but then I want my truck back that has all the bells and whistles. Whatever floats your boat!
    Absolutely. But wheel size is not "technology", just a personal choice in bike handling and performance. I am fortunate in owning at least one bike in all three sizes. That way I can be moody but always able to scratch whatever the itch of the day is.
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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    [...]I am fortunate in owning at least one bike in all three sizes. That way I can be moody but always able to scratch whatever the itch of the day is.
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there and Tallboy is just one of them. Just like 26ers and 27,5ers the 29ers all handle differently. Just compare 2001 GF prototype with 2014 Specialized Enduro 29.
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Kool-aid, nom nom



    Did you buy that demo 6 fiddy I saw you on?

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.
    Why don't YOU? We've never seen a hint of evidence that you've ridden any bike, even the RIP in your avatar. Nor any of the bikes you constantly recommend, regardless of whether they exist.
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there and Tallboy is just one of them. Just like 26ers and 27,5ers the 29ers all handle differently. Just compare 2001 GF prototype with 2014 Specialized Enduro 29.
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.
    The TB, as you know or should, is for XC terrain, which is where I use it and where it excels.

    When I get a longer travel bike, I will try to demo as many as I can. That will be a year down the line, so I hope and expect I can demo an Enduro 29 and Enduro 27.5" back to back. If Spesh continues to be a jackass, I will demo Treks and Santa Cruz (or whoever else has 140mm or 150mm suspension in both sizes) instead. Will pick whichever feels best
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  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmb2erl3dn View Post
    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.
    And your point is? I came here looking for opinions and it has clearly sparked a good debate. If you don't like that then you can leave.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    LOL!! Speed percentage, where the 26er is at 100%!! That is so much better. Without that bit of info it would of been useless. OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed. For racing that is great.

    I would still say that this chart is incomplete however. There is still nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails (singletrack), or anything relating to agility, etc. where precise handling is more important over speed. That is where 26er's would be better.

    When I am riding tight singletrack I am usually on the lower 3 or 4 gears (relatively slow speeds). Most of the trails here are not flow-y, with a ton of switchbacks, and are technically slow to navigate through difficult terrain features. I am very often accelerating from an almost standing start more often than not. A 26er is better for these kind of conditions.
    The "rough climbing" category seems to fit what you're saying pretty well (maneuverability, low speeds, acceleration, etc.), except for the conclusion.
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    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The "rough climbing" category seems to fit what you're saying pretty well (maneuverability, low speeds, acceleration, etc.), except for the conclusion.
    Like I said before "There are some 29er's that are also very good for tight singletrack, so for me that could possibly be the best of both worlds."

    I also subscribe to the Ride What You Have philosophy. I do agree that there will always be a better bike out there for the kind of riding that I do. I also think that the benefits of spending a ton of money on a new bike that is slightly better than what I already have is somewhat foolish. The most benefit for me is to ride more often, not spend more and more money. The engine is what needs the upgrade.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcteague View Post
    This is BMC's test results on the 3 wheel sizes. A bit of a different take than Giant.

    BMC Trail Fox 29 ? First Look - BikeRadar


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1376408169247-5jlmqybslcdl-670-70.png 
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    Tim
    Now make the same plot starting from 0 (instead of 92) to realize how negligible all this is.

    Not sure how they achieve results for "technical downhill". Personally, I hate how long travel 29r fit.

  30. #230
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    The differences between: (a) 26", (b) 27.5" and (c) 29"?

    Objectively: (a) Small, (b) Medium & ( (c) Large

    27.5" fanbois: (a) too small, (c) too large, & (b) just right

    27.5" haters: (a) light, stiff & nimble; (c) big, stable & rolls over everything & (c) not light, stiff & nimble, does not roll over everything, & WTF??

    Eyes of the beholder.
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    well I know I am going to sleep better tonight from having read this thread....
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there .
    You haven't ridden any bike out there.

  33. #233
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    Comments on wheel sizes

    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:


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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:
    Great vid. Here's an interesting point:

    "It (26" mountain bike wheel size) was chosen arbitrarily. There wasn't a great deal of experimentation."

    Which compliments my confusion over the vocal (and often hostile) defense of the 26" wheel size by a good-sized group of riders who seem to believe that 26" is and should always be the One True Wheel Size. When, in fact, there was no rational reason for it ever being so.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    When I get a longer travel bike, I will try to demo as many as I can. That will be a year down the line, so I hope and expect I can demo an Enduro 29 and Enduro 27.5" back to back.
    Just demo Enduro 29er without waiting for a smaller wheeled version. Even if 27.5 shows up it will be different, as 29er version would have to be beefed up to match the stiffnes of 27.5 or 26.

  36. #236
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    Bikes with a 29er wheel size do have better roll over, and carry better momentum. Depending on the geometry, they can also handle tight single and twisty single track and enduro duties well. This makes them superior in many ways for MTB.

    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.

    29ers also tend to be more expensive than 26ers. Again, the vast majority of the rest of the world's population do not have big enough budgets for purchasing a bike in the $2,000.00 range.

    This is why 26ers and 27.5ers will still sell better globally for MTB. Most bikes sold globally are actually for commuting, with MTB being a very small percentage overall.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    ...
    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.
    ...
    Where I live, all locally available brands were able to come up with 29er bikes with less than 29 inch of standover height, except for Specialized (my preferred brand). The irony here is Specialized seems to be the strongest proponent of 29" wheels, but they left out the guys who need less than 29 inch of standover height.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:
    Definitely a great vid. Lotta open questions, so consumers will have to wait and see how the market evolves. I still can't see ANY of the three being TOTALLY phased out in any case.

    So if I were to buy a new bike next season, I would feel safe going with whatever bike rode the best for me regardless of the wheel size. I can't foresee ever not being able to get forks, rims and tires in any size.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Definitely a great vid. Lotta open questions, so consumers will have to wait and see how the market evolves. I still can't see ANY of the three being TOTALLY phased out in any case.

    So if I were to buy a new bike next season, I would feel safe going with whatever bike rode the best for me regardless of the wheel size. I can't foresee ever not being able to get forks, rims and tires in any size.
    Ride and buy what you like best...I don't have a crystal ball, if I had to speculate it would sound like more companies would drop 26" significantly or completely. But there's probably still a strong market for them just not as large. Small companies have made a living off of being flexible and responding quickly to customer demand. If larger brands place less emphasis on 26" and enough customers still wan it, why wouldn't a smaller company make money off that need?

    To me if 3 wheels sizes go forward then it may benefit internet sellers, both bike cos an distributers as the tendency could be to cut costs elsewhere to make up for the highe cost of more varied inventory and design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    Where I live, all locally available brands were able to come up with 29er bikes with less than 29 inch of standover height, except for Specialized (my preferred brand). The irony here is Specialized seems to be the strongest proponent of 29" wheels, but they left out the guys who need less than 29 inch of standover height.
    A bikes fit while riding is of much more importance than stand over.
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    A bikes fit while riding is of much more importance than stand over.
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goran_injo View Post
    Well, they launched the tapered one out and it is a standard now everybody raves about. Similar to sloping geometries. Their opinions can be good ones.
    I believe that the tapered headtube/steerer credit actually goes to Ridley of Belgium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:

    Now watch the video from the 8:04 mark that I linked to... this guy got it right! MTB wheel size debate - 650b at Eurobike 2012 - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    Bikes with a 29er wheel size do have better roll over, and carry better momentum. Depending on the geometry, they can also handle tight single and twisty single track and enduro duties well. This makes them superior in many ways for MTB.

    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.

    29ers also tend to be more expensive than 26ers. Again, the vast majority of the rest of the world's population do not have big enough budgets for purchasing a bike in the $2,000.00 range.

    This is why 26ers and 27.5ers will still sell better globally for MTB. Most bikes sold globally are actually for commuting, with MTB being a very small percentage overall.

    My wife is 5'4" and loves her 29er. I raced yesterday and saw plenty of short riders, including some kids blazing a trail on big wheel rigs.

    Look at SCs Julianna women's brand. Only the XS frames are offered on a 26" wheel. Everything else is 27.5 or 29

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed? Lean to one side or the other. My 9 yr old grasp this concept.

  46. #246
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed? Lean to one side or the other. My 9 yr old grasp this concept.
    Not me, but I refer to those who have legs too short for standover that is above 736mm. Some bike makers like Specialized neglected that consumer segment.

    Sorry, were not talking about motorcycles here. Have you been riding a bike with improperly adjusted seat height? Leaning to one side to get off the bike is not an ideal habit to develop, because there are situations when it's not safe to do so.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    Who the hell stops like that? I either lean into the hill and put out my uphill foot down or grab a tree, I've even stop and just lean my body on a tree or put my foot down on a log. In the last ten years I can't even remember standing flatfooted over any of my bikes, even the ones that had enough stand over.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    Not me, but I refer to those who have legs too short for standover that is above 736mm. Some bike makers like Specialized neglected that consumer segment.

    Sorry, were not talking about motorcycles here. Have you been riding a bike with improperly adjusted seat height? Leaning to one side to get off the bike is not an ideal habit to develop, because there are situations when it's not safe to do so.
    Exactly we are talking bikes not motorcycles and stand over has very little, almost nothing to do with fit.
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  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed?
    Because on occasion it is an involuntary dismount cause by rider mistakes or unforeseen trail features. I very much like my balls being intact, thank you. Another possibility is that straddling your bike accidentally may very well cause you to fall of the side off a trail. And often it can be a long way down. Good standover is nice to have.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    This is one of the first issues with 29ers that was corrected years ago. BBs aren't really in a different place, so top-tubes slope more radically on 29ers and you get about the same stand-over. Different 29er frames use slightly different ways to achieve this, but this was addressed way back in the first few years of 29ers.

    This is like saying you can't ride DH bikes because they have more travel, higher front ends, higher BBs, and in the end, less stand-over height. On most DH bikes, they also correct for this with the frame design, although you can see some wacky stuff if you look at the first few years while companies were trying to figure out how to make them...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Won't happen.
    Defiantly wont happen...

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