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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Is this really a video of someone riding a long pedaly doubletrack/fire road for 8 minutes?

    I officially hate GoPro now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash29r View Post
    What is the point of even posting that video?
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If it's some kind of subtle/clever comment about 29ers, I guess it makes sense. 29ers only good for really boring looking fire roads, maybe? Whoever filmed themselves (and then clogged some energy-hog server farm with the data) should never again be allowed to use any form of camera or the internet.

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    Take a look at the guys previous forum posts. In almost every recent post he is spamming the board with his video to bring himself more traffic/views.

    Its Spam.
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Industry guys I know who have spent time on various bikes say the Enduro 29" and BMC TF01 totally destroy any 150/160mm 650b bike so you might want to rethink that split.
    You're probably right but the preferences of the market don't always make technical sense. There's still the belief among many that 29 inch wheels are too heavy/flexi/unwieldy especially on a long wheelbase bike, plus the difficulty in finding room for a front derailleur. There's still a lot of anti-29er sentiment out there, especially among the all-mountain and endure crowd, so I'm going to stick with my prediction. And I'm talking general popularity, there will always be some long-travel 29ers, but most will be 27.5.
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  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Industry guys I know who have spent time on various bikes say the Enduro 29" and BMC TF01 totally destroy any 150/160mm 650b bike so you might want to rethink that split.
    "Industry guys" who are invested in 29" Both the 27.5" and the 29" arguments are wrong insofar as they are aimed at establishing absolute standards. There ARE none, and none can be. WAY too many other variables, not the least of which are riders' personal preferences and varying specific terrain. Neither Giant nor Specialized will likely win any "war" to determine which of their platforms is "best". All in the eye of the beholder. Then again, the sales figures will determine which company made the better marketing decision. Given that both 27.5" and 29" are different but viable platforms, marketing will play a huge roll in attracting those buyers who want to switch to a larger wheel than 26" but are understandably confused by the competing claims and kool aid. Too bad not everyone has the opportunity to demo different bikes back to back on the same trails before buying.
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  4. #304
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    I still maintain that the 27.5 is too close to 26 to really make that much of a difference. I have ridden all three sizes and think that the only reason 27.5 is having any success is that people have ridden 29 now for a while, try an 27.5 and see how nimble, playful, etc and think it is due to 27.5. Truth be told I have measured and ridden (I work at a bike shop) many 26 wheels and 27.5 wheels and they are so so close. I truly feel that the industry is going for a cash grab. I do think as many have already said, we are being "forced" to believe that 27.5 is the cat's meow and it isn't any better. In fact I don't endorse any wheel size. They all have their strengths. Just pick one and ride.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Sugar View Post
    You're probably right but the preferences of the market don't always make technical sense. There's still the belief among many that 29 inch wheels are too heavy/flexi/unwieldy especially on a long wheelbase bike, plus the difficulty in finding room for a front derailleur. There's still a lot of anti-29er sentiment out there, especially among the all-mountain and endure crowd, so I'm going to stick with my prediction. And I'm talking general popularity, there will always be some long-travel 29ers, but most will be 27.5.
    True, but people looking at 27.5 need to ride/demo 29" flavors as well.

    Me: Tallboy LTc
    Buddy: Bronson c

    No way would I go back to smaller wheels after a few rides on the Bronson. It's kind of like going backwards, at least in my opinion from rides on the Bronson. The LTc crushes it in every respect.

    Those that don't ride 29ers or who have never ridden bigger wheels, it's kind of like owning a desert truck with 33" tires, then going back to 31". Big tires just float magically.

    I can't believe we are still discussing heavy/flexy wheels in late 2013. It's a non issue if you buy they right gear.

    27.5 is too close to 26". It's the bike industry and marketing departments trying to shove new crap down our throats. If it was hot, it would have taken off back in 2005-2006 when Kirk was pushing it hard way back then. 26" sales are gone, and we need then next "big" thing but it falls short. .98" bigger than 26" must be pretty exciting to some though with 29" fit issues.

  6. #306
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    I can see 27.5 killing the 26er, but the 29er is here to stay. Maybe if this were Japan, with the average male height of 5'7" - 5'9", the 29er may never have caught on.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    I can see 27.5 killing the 26er, but the 29er is here to stay. Maybe if this were Japan, with the average male height of 5'7" - 5'9", the 29er may never have caught on.
    What's up with the racist remarks in the guise of stating an incorrect assumption? I know plenty of short people who ride 29ers. The size of the person doen't effect the rotational speed and the geometrical characteristics of the wheel. A completely flawed response.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    What's up with the racist remarks in the guise of stating an incorrect assumption? I know plenty of short people who ride 29ers. The size of the person doen't effect the rotational speed and the geometrical characteristics of the wheel. A completely flawed response.
    Size of a person absolutely does affect bike fit and it is silly to pretend that 29er do not have an issue with smaller sizes. No amount of tweaks and no amount of people who do put up with bad fit and no amount of Niner's marketing drivel can change that fact.

    This whole argument about 27.5 not being different enough from 26 is silly. It is exactly as different as numbers tell you. 40% of the difference between 26" and 29". 29" have that much less of any of its advantages over 27.5 than over 26". While 27.5" fits almost as well as 26" in all adult sizes - for the exact half of the world adult population who are below average height (funny how statistics works).

  9. #309
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    Bike fit and wheel size are completely different topics bro. Like I said before I know lots of guys shorter than 5-6 that are happy riding 29ers. Not because like like to feel like midgets in a bike but because they prefer the feel of the bigger wheels.

  10. #310
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    Bike fit and wheel size are completely different topics bro. Like I said before I know lots of guys shorter than 5-6 that are happy riding 29ers. Not because like like to feel like midgets in a bike but because they prefer the feel of the bigger wheels.
    Bollocks. There is a reason many 29 bikes are not even offered in sizes less than medium, and if somebody puts up with bad fit for whatever reasons, it does not make it good.

  11. #311
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    I agree that there is not enough of a difference between 26 and 27.5 in wheels for both of these to remain. I think one or the other will fade out and quickly.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    Bike fit and wheel size are completely different topics bro. Like I said before I know lots of guys shorter than 5-6 that are happy riding 29ers. Not because like like to feel like midgets in a bike but because they prefer the feel of the bigger wheels.
    How are they different? They go hand in hand.
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  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    What's up with the racist remarks in the guise of stating an incorrect assumption? I know plenty of short people who ride 29ers. The size of the person doen't effect the rotational speed and the geometrical characteristics of the wheel. A completely flawed response.
    So, where is the racist comment?
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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Size of a person absolutely does affect bike fit and it is silly to pretend that 29er do not have an issue with smaller sizes. No amount of tweaks and no amount of people who do put up with bad fit and no amount of Niner's marketing drivel can change that fact.
    troof

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    While 27.5" fits almost as well as 26" in all adult sizes - for the exact half of the world adult population who are below average height (funny how statistics works).
    "Average" doesn't work like that. I think you meant median.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  15. #315
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    [QUOTE=Axe;10697976]Size of a person absolutely does affect bike fit and it is silly to pretend that 29er do not have an issue with smaller sizes. No amount of tweaks and no amount of people who do put up with bad fit and no amount of Niner's marketing drivel can change that fact.]



    The actual fact is that the size of the wheel has pretty much diddly to do with fit and function for people down to about 5'. The only restrictions that wheel diameter impose are stack - which isn't a problem if you use a flipped stem - and toe overlap with a short top tube, which doesn't seem to be problem.

    My wife is 5'2" and use to ride a Santa Cruz Juliana. She now rides a Giant Anthem 29 4W women's specific in a size small. They even make an XS. The Giant fits perfectly - even the stand over is identical to her old bike - and she doesn't want to ride 26" wheels anymore. Of course, Giant recently discontinued the model because it didn't fit their 27.5 - ahem- philosophy. I guess they didn't want the fact that it worked getting in the way of their new theory that it wouldn't work; even after they'd proved it did. There's also the Specialized Rumor and the Trek Lush women's 29s.

    Some frame and suspension designs don't work out well if you want to have a low stand over. That's a design factor though and not an inherent wheel size problem.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    Bike fit and wheel size are completely different topics bro. Like I said before I know lots of guys shorter than 5-6 that are happy riding 29ers. Not because like like to feel like midgets in a bike but because they prefer the feel of the bigger wheels.
    Wrong and right.

    My son is 5'5"and rides a 29'er but to say there are no compromises is false Road bikes, which have the same size wheels, are available with better frame size selections than 29" mountain bikes. Remember that one reason Nino Schurter chose 27.5" over 29" was his preference for an aggressive low bar high seat riding position. Impossible at his height to achieve on a 29'er. For the "no difference" from 26" crowd, Nino Schurter disagrees. After back to back testing, he chose 27.5" for performance reasons over 26". He can achieve substantially the same riding position on both bikes.

    I'm 5'9" and on my 29'er, size M frame, my seat is the same height as the bar (flat of course) with a 1mm washer instead of a spacer between the headset and (inverted) 90 mm. stem. With the same set up but smaller frame and shorter stem, my son is riding a bike with ape hangers. His only other possible modification would be inverted riser bar. He has adjusted to the set up, but I'm fairly certain his next bike will be a size small frame bike with 27.5" wheels. This is due to fit issues on 29", not dissatisfaction with the wheel performance.
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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    Of course, Giant recently discontinued the model because it didn't fit their 27.5 - ahem- philosophy. I guess they didn't want the fact that it worked getting in the way of their new theory that it wouldn't work; even after they'd proved it did.
    Don't worry. Once Giant convinces everyone to buy a 27.5 bike, they'll roll out the "Even Better!" 28.25 platform.

    I really don't like Giant.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post

    The actual fact is that the size of the wheel has pretty much diddly to do with fit and function for people down to about 5'. The only restrictions that wheel diameter impose are stack - which isn't a problem if you use a flipped stem - and toe overlap with a short top tube, which doesn't seem to be problem.

    My wife is 5'2" and use to ride a Santa Cruz Juliana. She now rides a Giant Anthem 29 4W women's specific in a size small. They even make an XS. The Giant fits perfectly - even the stand over is identical to her old bike - and she doesn't want to ride 26" wheels anymore. Of course, Giant recently discontinued the model because it didn't fit their 27.5 - ahem- philosophy. I guess they didn't want the fact that it worked getting in the way of their new theory that it wouldn't work; even after they'd proved it did. There's also the Specialized Rumor and the Trek Lush women's 29s.

    Some frame and suspension designs don't work out well if you want to have a low stand over. That's a design factor though and not an inherent wheel size problem.
    I think youre overestimating the ability to correct stack with a flipped stem. I see a lot of women racers who cant get a low enough stack for climbing even with a flipped stem. When you start getting into longer forks on a 29er (your wifes bike is only 100mm?), the stack can get just too high for a correction with a stem flip.
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    Don't worry. Once Giant convinces everyone to buy a 27.5 bike, they'll roll out the "Even Better!" 28.25 platform.

    I really don't like Giant.
    I don't like the red herring 4th wheel size argument, which though irrelevant, meaningless, and just plain stupid, refuses to die.
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    I think youre overestimating the ability to correct stack with a flipped stem. I see a lot of women racers who cant get a low enough stack for climbing even with a flipped stem. When you start getting into longer forks on a 29er (your wifes bike is only 100mm?), the stack can get just too high for a correction with a stem flip.
    Agree. See my post about why Nino Schurter chose 27.5" over 29".
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  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    Bike fit and wheel size are completely different topics bro. Like I said before I know lots of guys shorter than 5-6 that are happy riding 29ers. Not because like like to feel like midgets in a bike but because they prefer the feel of the bigger wheels.
    But I'll bet most of them wouldn't be able to wheelie/manual over a pencil. It's called leverage.
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  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    The actual fact is that the size of the wheel has pretty much diddly to do with fit and function for people down to about 5'. The only restrictions that wheel diameter impose are stack - which isn't a problem if you use a flipped stem - and toe overlap with a short top tube, which doesn't seem to be problem.
    The actual fact is that even companies all in on 29" size, like specialized, do not offer long travel 29" in short enough top tubes, and flipped stem is useless when it has to be short, and flipped bars are an idiotic solution. The fact that some people on cool-aid choose to got that way, does not change that. They think it makes them "faster", but actual, real life results (like race results in enduro) just do not bear that out.
    Fitting below average height people to large wheels is a solution looking for a problem. Smaller wheels ride (and win) just fine, or better.

  23. #323
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    My 5'4" wife rides a size medium Tallboy. Only adjustment was to shorten the stem.

    Take a look at the Juliana line sizing. SC clearly put a lot of thought into sizing. Only the size XS is below 29"

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    they'll roll out the "Even Better!" 28.25 platform.
    that wheel size should really be referenced as 666B

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I don't like the red herring 4th wheel size argument, which though irrelevant, meaningless, and just plain stupid, refuses to die.
    One may have said the same thing not too many years ago about a *3rd* wheel size argument.

    That said, I was only joking. Maybe.

  26. #326
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    29ers are definitely here to stay. They ride great and look even better.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    My 5'4" wife rides a size medium Tallboy.
    It does not prove it makes sense for the vast majority of riders.

    Even 5'9" world champion chose 27.5. So do most enduro cup riders.

    Useless to discuss here.. selection effect of forum participants.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    One may have said the same thing not too many years ago about a *3rd* wheel size argument.

    That said, I was only joking. Maybe.
    I was implying it is a tired, old, oft repeated, LAME joke.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABKA View Post
    29ers are definitely here to stay. They ride great and look even better.
    They look great with riders who fit on them.

    When I see five-foot-tall women on little tiny 29er frames with giant wagon wheels front and rear, I cringe a bit at the design compromises that had to be made to the frame to allow a short person to ride it and not have toe overlap of the front wheel. Sure, I can understand the interest small riders might have in having a faster-rolling bike that perhaps assists them in riding with more confidence on technical descents as well as on riding whatever is the current fad, but a 650b would be a much more rational choice for short riders intent on graduating from 26-inch.
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  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    - Lennard Zinn
    Quoting Lennard Zinn weakens any argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    I think youre overestimating the ability to correct stack with a flipped stem. I see a lot of women racers who cant get a low enough stack for climbing even with a flipped stem. When you start getting into longer forks on a 29er (your wifes bike is only 100mm?), the stack can get just too high for a correction with a stem flip.
    You're right. But short female racers problems aren't relevant to the vast majority of the sales for these bikes. The short racer will have to choose between having a higher stack or a shorter wheel. Or flip the bars too. Or go 80mm.

    You're also not accounting for the fact that short people, especially women, have a lower CG to start with so would seem to me to have less need for a low bar except for aerodynamics. For typical trail riding there is no problem that I've seen. And you pretty much have to bend your elbows going up anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    What's up with the racist remarks in the guise of stating an incorrect assumption? I know plenty of short people who ride 29ers. The size of the person doen't effect the rotational speed and the geometrical characteristics of the wheel. A completely flawed response.
    How is stating the average height of a Japanese man as 5'7''-5'9'' racist?

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    How is stating the average height of a Japanese man as 5'7''-5'9'' racist?
    Because all races and nationalities have the same average height. Women too.

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    My fiance who is 5'1" happily rides a 29er Epic. It makes a great race bike for sure, but maybe the frame is just a tad too big to be a worthy trail bike. We'll set her up on a 650b bike soon enough and we'll see how she does. On the Epic though, a slammed stem, -5mm bar and there's still some rise to the handlebars preventing it from being an "ideal" set up in my eyes but she climbs better on this bike than her 26" wheel bike with a more textbook riding position. Of course the geometries of the bikes are totally different when comparing a Pivot Mach 5.7 to an Epic but since getting the Epic this year, her Pivot has not seen the trail since she likes the 29er and is considerably faster up the hills and on the flats while not losing too much speed down the hills.
    I have ridden 650b a good amount (Bronson and Solo) and they both feel like they would be a ton of fun. The Bronson would crush by Tallboy LT down the hills and the Solo (5010) would excel in slow chunky balancing act type riding over the LT, and the regular Tallboy of course would kill the LT up the hills, but for doing it all, for me, the LT is superior trail bike to any of the 650b offerings. Smaller wheel sizes yield more slacker head tube angles to have the downhill confidence. When you can put together a long travel 29er bike with a 69 degree head tube angle that feels as confident as 67 degree head tube angle on a 26er you've gained a huge advantage. You get the climbing and sprinting advantages of a steeper head tube angle and the downhill confidence of more slacker designs.
    The 29er will not go away and perhaps they'll even make a new wheel size out of the iso630 standard to gain an extra 8 mm in diameter.

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    Yes, stating the average height is a very racist comment indeed. I am glad I didn't got for average weight and hair color.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    Because all races and nationalities have the same average height. Women too.
    Assuming you aren't being sarcastic...

    Might want to look up the average heights of men in the Netherlands, and Guatemala.

    I'm taller than half the men in Afghanistan, and I'm 5'6". I am the shortest man, of 31 soldiers, in my platoon.
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  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    If the Nomad Alloy is the bike that you are considering equivalent to the Bronson Alloy, then according to the SC site, the Bronson is about $50 more than the Nomad with the same build. Either the bike shop wasn't comparing alloy to alloy or build to build, the 26" bike was on sale, or they trying to rip people off.
    The only comparable frame would be the Blur LT.

    Santa Cruz have said that the Bronson C was developed as a 650B replacement for the Blur LTC.
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  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Quoting Lennard Zinn weakens any argument.
    I hear sarcasm oozing between the lines.

    When it comes to frame fit vs. wheel size, the input of real life day job frame builders, such as our own Walt and, yes, Zinn, trumps the idle speculation of most of us just plain riders.

    Zinn is up there with the best of the all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt.

    The MTBR heavyweights, alas, are on a lower plane.
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  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I hear sarcasm oozing between the lines.
    Zero sarcasm. Seriously I think that citing Zinn damages credibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    When it comes to frame fit vs. wheel
    size, the input of real life day job frame builders, such as our own Walt and, yes, Zinn, trumps the idle speculation of most of us just plain riders.
    Idle speculation is one thing... scientific debunking of bogus ideas like proportional crank length is another.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Zinn is up there with the best of the
    all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt.
    I disagree completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    The MTBR heavyweights are on a lower plane still.
    I tend to judge statements/ideas on merit, not who they come from.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  40. #340
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    I think 29er's will be fazed out in the next three years. That's why I'm doing my best to stock up on them.
    Let's make like a Bike and get the Huck outta here...

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava View Post
    What's up with the racist remarks in the guise of stating an incorrect assumption? I know plenty of short people who ride 29ers. The size of the person doen't effect the rotational speed and the geometrical characteristics of the wheel. A completely flawed response.
    Do you even know what "racism" means?

    What you say about the size of the rider not affecting the rotational speed and geometry of the wheel is true. But you can't ride just the wheels. Wheel size absolutely does affect fit. Wheel size and suspension travel affect the headtube height and therefore standover. Hence 12" & 20" wheels for children.

    My wife (who is Filipina, and yes Filipinos also tend to be shorter than most other races -- deal with it) can fit a Trek Cali small. It is the only 29er we have found that fits her. The top tube is quite curved to allow standover. Interestingly, a White friend who is the same 5' height as my wife rides a Cali medium.

    So while a 27.5 will not roll over stuff as well as 29, it is better than 26. There should be more choices available to her in 27.5.

    I love my 29er, and will probably never change. But in cycling, small stuff matters. If companies want to make 27.5 and people want to buy them, what's the harm?

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    Regardless of how any wheel size performs, every company is for profit. What 29ers did was take a flat market and created a buzz for which to keep that going they are pushing 27.5's. It is no different than any other product, bike companies and manufacturers want the consumers to consume to keep the cash coming in.

    Wheel size from a selection standpoint is similar to the alpine ski market. Look at all the choices for all the conditions and skier types. Yet if you are a good skier, you can ski everything on one pair.

    I recommend to know your level of riding, know where you would like to go and what type of terrain do you like to ride. With that in mind, the best wheel size or bike may be a 36" unicycle.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    After learning where Giant is based in, I immediately realized what they got in mind. They simply want to tap into a market segment that has a wider coverage than a 29er can give them. They have seen what most of the US-based manufacturers did not...the 29-inch wheel size limits the effective fit to taller riders.

    Sure, having both 26" and 29" lineups should be able to cover every size riders. But if Giant can get them all by using only one wheel size, they can reduce their production cost. And that would allow them to lower their price to the point where they would be the best choice for cost-conscious buyers.
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  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    I tend to judge statements/ideas on merit, not who they come from.
    Not all of us have engineering degrees or other expertise to determine merit independently. Therefore, sources with cred and credentials are taken seriously by default. I have seriously never heard of anyone else doubting or attacking Zinn's credentials or credibility.

    Please elaborate and enlighten the unwashed among us who are not privy to esoteric knowledge on your plane as to why he is not a reliable source.

    The current topic is whether body size and wheel size correlate. Zinn, who is a frame builder ( specializing in tall riders) and journalist who writes about bicycle tech for a living, says yes and that makes intuitive sense to lay people such as myself.

    The ball is in your court. I will listen with an open mind. My background is law, where determining whether a witness qualifies as an expert is based upon their qualifications. Zinn clearly qualifies. While I generally accept and rely upon your observations (such as tubeless tire mounting technique, and wheel building) as they appear to be based upon ample experience, I do not know your qualifications. You may or may not be presumptuous dissing Zinn. Disabuse me of this notion; I'm all ears
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Meltingfeather and dwt had good points.
    But in my experience, you don't need to have a degree to understand technical stuffs if you have the passion for the hobby you're in.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Most people can't manual over a pencil regardless of wheels size and/or the years they have been riding. It's called practice for the non-gifted.

    And most of them couldn't give a rat's ass about it either.

    I do, I can (over a pencil that is) on a big wheel and being a midget...

    Cedric Gracia and Curtis Keene can certainly do it, even on a tricycle and could probably find a way with a unicycle...

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Man View Post
    Most people can't manual over a pencil regardless of wheels size and/or the years they have been riding. It's called practice for the non-gifted.

    And most of them couldn't give a rat's ass about it either.

    I do, I can (over a pencil that is) on a big wheel and being a midget...

    Cedric Gracia and Curtis Keene can certainly do it, even on a tricycle and could probably find a way with a unicycle...
    Gracia and the rest of the SC Syndicate riders ride Bronsons in Enduro races, though Minnaar won the WC DH on 26"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Gracia and the rest of the SC Syndicate riders ride Bronsons in Enduro races, though Minnaar won the WC DH on 26"
    I agree, tho interestingly, I seem to recall one of them doing well on a Tallboy LT on a downhill course with a long flat section.
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  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Man View Post
    Most people can't manual over a pencil regardless of wheels size and/or the years they have been riding. It's called practice for the non-gifted.

    And most of them couldn't give a rat's ass about it either.

    ..
    They should. It is what keeps them being beginner/intermediate riders.
    The fact that you actually are saying that 29-ers are easy to wheelie because you and a few pros can do it is disingenuous.
    Fact is, larger wheels are harder to loft, and lofting the front wheel is critical to progressing. It's that simple.
    It's not a judgement...just a fact.
    Why do you want people on ill fitting bikes to struggle? ;-)
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  50. #350
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    They should. It is what keeps them being beginner/intermediate riders.
    The fact that you actually are saying that 29-ers are easy to wheelie because you and a few pros can do it is disingenuous.
    Fact is, larger wheels are harder to loft, and lofting the front wheel is critical to progressing. It's that simple.
    It's not a judgement...just a fact.
    Why do you want people on ill fitting bikes to struggle? ;-)
    Because 29rs are the best. No matter what the facts are. Lol.
    I am immune to your disdain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    They should. It is what keeps them being beginner/intermediate riders.
    The fact that you actually are saying that 29-ers are easy to wheelie because you and a few pros can do it is disingenuous.
    Fact is, larger wheels are harder to loft, and lofting the front wheel is critical to progressing. It's that simple.
    It's not a judgement...just a fact.
    Why do you want people on ill fitting bikes to struggle? ;-)
    Is it the wheel size or wheel base which makes the larger wheels harder to loft?

    Cause my Full suspension 26er has a longer wheelbase than my hardtail 29er... just saying..
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  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_03 View Post
    I agree, tho interestingly, I seem to recall one of them doing well on a Tallboy LT on a downhill course with a long flat section.
    Long, FLAT section.
    Speaks for itself.
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  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    Is it the wheel size or wheel base which makes the larger wheels harder to loft?

    Cause my Full suspension 26er has a longer wheelbase than my hardtail 29er... just saying..
    The longer chain stay length on a typical 29er is what makes it more difficult to loft the front wheel (not just the longer wheel base dimension). Chain stay length is what dictates how far back your seating position, and where your weight ends up in relation to the center axis of the rear wheel.

    Put your but way behind the seat and try to loft the front and you will see how much easier it is to do.

    Yes, I do have a Mechanical Engineering degree.

  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    The longer chain stay length on a typical 29er is what makes it more difficult to loft the front wheel (not just the longer wheel base dimension). Chain stay length is what dictates how far back your seating position, and where your weight ends up in relation to the center axis of the rear wheel.

    Put your but way behind the seat and try to loft the front and you will see how much easier it is to do.

    Yes, I do have a Mechanical Engineering degree.
    Well, the chainstay length on my FS 26er is also longer than my hardtail 29er.. so I guess it really depends more on the bikes design than wheel size
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  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    650b will certainly take away sales from 29er.
    Diehard 29ers will continue buying them, but 650b will eventually catch up with 29 sales # and probably out sale them in 1-2 years.
    One year... hasn't happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    Probably won't ever happen.

  57. #357
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    Give it another year

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Give it another year
    And it still won't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    My prediction is that in around 5 years, 26er sales will be almost completely consumed by 650b, except for a rare few diehard DH rigs. The sales of 29er's will stay about the same or just dip a bit with 650b's taking over that difference.

  60. #360
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    Half right , correct on 26'ers.

    Another year for 29'er prediction. Id say still a long shot, but after being vocal 29'er holdout, Specialized now selling Enduro 650b. If that bike starts outselling Enduro 29, watch the hell out in the rest of the market.
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  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Half right , correct on 26'ers.
    His comment was in regard to 29ers (that 650 would outsell them in 1-2 years).
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Another year for 29'er prediction. Id say still a long shot, but after being vocal 29'er holdout, Specialized now selling Enduro 650b. If that bike starts outselling Enduro 29, watch the hell out in the rest of the market.
    The push is definitely on from a couple of mfrs, and it will have some effect no doubt. The "Early Launch 2015" lineup from Spesh is very clear evidence.
    I agree that it's a long shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  62. #362
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    I hope long-travel 29ers don't die off.

    I recently switched back to a Tallboy LT after starting my enduro season on a new Nomad, and I gotta say I feel faster on the LT. I'll be taking the Nomad with me to Whistler next week, but unless I'm riding park laps for fun, I think the LT is gonna get the nod from now on....
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    I would be really surprised if they did. There will still be demand for them, some if not all will continue making them.

  64. #364
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    I hope long-travel 29ers don't die off.

    I recently switched back to a Tallboy LT after starting my enduro season on a new Nomad, and I gotta say I feel faster on the LT. I'll be taking the Nomad with me to Whistler next week, but unless I'm riding park laps for fun, I think the LT is gonna get the nod from now on....
    I seriously doubt there will be much die off of any 29'ers.
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  65. #365
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    Feel faster or get faster times? Cause I feel faster on my smaller wheeled bike (the feeling is more like the feeling that you are at your limit before you sketch out and lose control), but get faster times on my 29er.

    Pivot's and Yeti's best sellers are 650b bikes this year. Yeti notes that 26 sales pretty much fell off a cliff though. These guys aren't very high volume or sell entry level HTs though... bread and butter sales probably are 29er HT and 29er 100mm FS bikes in the under 2.5k range.

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    Giant's advertising is coming across as if the 29er is disappearing. This whole "best of both worlds" has got people drinking the Koolaid as I have and regret. Giant hyped up the 650B last year and to their credit they released several platforms that complimented the 27.5 better than most in the industry especially considering the price tag. This year they release a boat load of bikes all catering to the 27.5 to include full suspension budget bikes such as the Stance. They made no changes other than reintroducing the Reign back into the lineup. In the end its genius marketing, no one could have done it better.

  67. #367
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Jubei30 View Post
    Giant's advertising is coming across as if the 29er is disappearing. This whole "best of both worlds" has got people drinking the Koolaid as I have and regret
    What is your regret? I had the exact opposite experience : I was an early 27.5 adopter, approx. 2 years before that koolaid hit the fan, but the previous 29'er koolaid period had passed me by. After riding and liking 27.5", I started to self doubt reading all the continued 29'er praise and adulation, coupled with the constant refrain that 27.5" was crap in comparison and a bunch of hype. Self doubt, second guessing and buyer's remorse are exactly the weaknesses that hype preys upon. So then 29'er hype got to me, & when I had the cash, I bought a Tall Boy carbon (short travel version, a nice and light XC bike) We tried to love each other, but just did not click. So I sold that bad boy at a huge loss this spring.

    Meanwhile, my "old" 27.5 is actually becoming a relic: heavy trail bike @130mm suspension. I coulda bought a lighter 27.5
    trail bike with more squish for the price I paid for the TBc. Too late now. Shoulda gone with my gut.

    I've posted this story way too many times already, but it seemed relevant in light of your post. All kinds of hype in the bike market, mostly good bikes to chose from, but bottom line is personal choice as to wheel size, suspension, geo, and price point.

    Specialized caving to the trend is huge IMO. The Stumpjumper 650b received lukewarm reception at best. If Spesh phoned it in with the Stumpie, they went all in with the recent Enduro 650b, which will compete in the market with their flagship Enduro 29". Very interesting to see how this experiment goes. One version will outsell the other. If the 29" version buries the 650b, or vice versa, what effect will this have on the market?
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    Man, I hope they never kill off 29ers. I'm not much more than 6 feet but I've never had a bigger aha! moment then when I first rode a 29. I can imagine most taller people have a similar revelation after riding a 29er. Any minor handling drawbacks (and they are minor) are hugely outweighed by finally having a bike that feels like it was custom made for me. I don't know how they feel for the more average sized rider but I think they may fit a 650b better. Kinda scary

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    Coming into this late, and somewhat off-topic but it was mentioned here. For anyone who believes that Lennard Zinn should be mentioned in the same league as other greats, here is a lengthy discussion regarding Zinn, his proportional crank theory and his testing. Most interesting is this quote offered when asked about his tests published in 1996:

    "...I have made many attempts since then to come up with a decent, publishable test. As you so eloquently point out, my first two tests never should have been published in the first place. Also, I wrote that 1996 article largely out of surprise, because I had just assumed that it would be obvious to people that crank length should be proportional to leg length. Assuming that, I figured nobody would be able to do anything on a 130mm or shorter. I was amazed at how well I could keep up on group rides, no matter what length I used from 100mm to 220mm, with little adaptation. I did want to write about that, since I had expected a very big effect that would make riding very fast with a crank 10% of one's leg length impossible. Assuming that the average rider would expect that they should get a proportional crank was a mistake, and the wording should have been way different, had I understood the listening I was writing into among the readers. Anyway, I was unable to see the trend I had hoped for of a length standing out for each size rider. I wanted to write something after all of the time and effort I had spent on that (I even built that ergometer that allowed realistic positioning of very small and very tall riders over a huge range). Unfortunately, the results did not warrant publishing it, and there is no way to undo something like that, once it is out there. Oh well."
    In other words, his results proved his proportional crank theory wrong, but he knew that once those results were known that he would not overcome it and that it would work against his desire to build a business around proportional crank sales, which he has done. Lennard Zinn is a liar and a fraud.

    For those that think that no one else believes this, read this rant. It sums Zinn up far better than I ever could.

    Zinn is no Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt. Those guys always took the time to get the answers right, Zinn never does. We have no need for Lennard Zinn, Sheldon Brown is irreplaceable.

  70. #370
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Duplicate post. Deleted
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused-imageuploadedbytapatalk1406895999.753680.jpg  

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  71. #371
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Coming into this late, and somewhat off-topic but it was mentioned here. For anyone who believes that Lennard Zinn should be mentioned in the same league as other greats, here is a lengthy discussion regarding Zinn, his proportional crank theory and his testing. Most interesting is this quote offered when asked about his tests published in 1996:


    In other words, his results proved his proportional crank theory wrong, but he knew that once those results were known that he would not overcome it and that it would work against his desire to build a business around proportional crank sales, which he has done. Lennard Zinn is a liar and a fraud.

    For those that think that no one else believes this, read this rant. It sums Zinn up far better than I ever could.

    Zinn is no Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt. Those guys always took the time to get the answers right, Zinn never does. We have no need for Lennard Zinn, Sheldon Brown is irreplaceable.
    Only you would have the cohones to post something like this. My response is simply who the f**k do you think you are?
    You, who are quick to boo hoo when someone like me flames you, thinks he has the qualifications to diss Lennard Zinn who is not here to defend himself.
    Who am I? Just another anonymous jerk
    who posts shyte online. FWIW only, no pretense of authority or omniscience
    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused-imageuploadedbytapatalk1406895999.753680.jpg
    Last edited by dwt; 08-01-2014 at 06:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubei30 View Post
    Giant's advertising is coming across as if the 29er is disappearing.... ...In the end its genius marketing, no one could have done it better.
    You are right about that. Multiply the number of different models (hard tail xc, hard tail trail, fs xc, fs trail, fs enduro, etc.) by at least 3 or 4 sizes (S, M, L, XL) by 3 build levels and 3 wheel sizes, and you come out with something like 400 bikes. If you consider that most people don't order bikes but simply buy the one that is on the LBS floor, what are the chances an LBS has the bike a customer wants? By going with one wheel size to rule them all Giant was able to slash the number of bikes it had to produce by more than half, now they just had to convince people there was incontrovertible "science" behind it all. I think it was a no-brainer on their part.

    There are lots of people that bought 29ers because the LBS recommended them AND they are better in a lot of ways for most people. The same LBSs will be recommending 27.5 now, so I think they will take a bite out of 29er sales, but 29er is not going away.

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    Embrace choice....it is great for the mountain bike community!

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post

    There are lots of people that bought 29ers because the LBS recommended them AND they are better in a lot of ways for most people. The same LBSs will be recommending 27.5 now, so I think they will take a bite out of 29er sales, but 29er is not going away.
    This was all consumer driven demand though when 29ers came out. 27.5 did not and has not seen the same level of consumer driven demand, at least not at my local shops.

    Also, I think that "The same LBSs will be recommending 27.5 now" works for lower end bikes. People that want a higher end 29er (or 26er) will buy one either from another shop or online. A store full of 27.5" bikes (or 26, 29, etc.) is bad for business and most shops know this already.

  75. #375
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    Most of the bike shops in my area do not carry 26" mountain bikes, and if they do, it is very few models. I believe the demise of the 26" wheel is coming, maybe 3-5 years. 29" and 27.5" will become the new norm.

    When you see the biggest races in the world being won on 29ers and every single manufacture producing new, innovative, 29er platforms you can rest assured they are here to stay.

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    ... thinks he has the qualifications to diss Lennard Zinn who is not here to defend himself.
    I am qualified to "diss" Lennard Zinn and who says he isn't here to defend himself? You are such a whiner, dwt.

    I can't help it if you're too uneducated to know who to trust (or what to ride).

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    It seems to me they might be taking a Niner approach. The whole "this is the best wheelsize and the only one worth making" deal.
    I see these two decisions as totally different. Giant is a large company. They can probably realize an economy of scale by manufacturing bikes with just one wheel size -- possibly lower engineering costs, but certainly lower manufacturing costs if everything is focused on one wheel size.

    Niner came out when 29ers were still somewhat of a new concept. For them, this is, in part, a marketing decision to differentiate them from Specialized, Trek, etc. that need to be all things to all people. Niner can save money on engineering by doing all their failure analysis and the like on one wheel size rather than 3. They don't have the large manufacturing presence that Giant has, so they won't realize the potential $$ savings that Giant can with just one wheel size.

    I can see certain styles of bikes going to certain wheel sizes. I think that is what we will see with Spec and Trek and the like -- say, DH bikes in 26, all mountain FS in 27.5, and XC hardtails all 29ers. Or all Small/Medium frames in 27.5 and all Large/XL frames in 29.

  78. #378
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I am qualified to "diss" Lennard Zinn and who says he isn't here to defend himself? You are such a whiner, dwt.

    I can't help it if you're too uneducated to know who to trust (or what to ride).
    Well I have zero engineering background and admit it. But have learned infinitely more about bikes from Lennard Zinn than Craig "Dr. Science" SJ.

    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn? Don't deflect the question with ad hominen criticism of the questioner, eh?

    No one is right all the time. Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct. But that certainly doesn't call into question the rest of his contributions to physics
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  79. #379
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn? Don't deflect the question with ad hominen criticism of the questioner, eh?

    No one is right all the time. Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct. But that certainly doesn't call into question the rest of his contributions to physics
    I don't think you need qualifications to point out admitted dishonesty. The facts (in his own words, no less) speak for themselves.
    Zinn admitted that his proportional crank length theory was bogus, yet he is still (as in right now on his website) selling custom cranks based on the debunked idea of proportional crank length. WTF?!?
    Not being right all the time is one thing. Intentionally misleading people for monetary gain is something completely different. It is dishonest, manipulative, and avaricious, and it is hard for me to respect someone like that.
    How do you differentiate when he is offering good information from when he is selling some crap he cooked up?
    Misinformation is worse than no information at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Well I have zero engineering background and admit it. But have learned infinitely more about bikes from Lennard Zinn than Craig "Dr. Science" SJ.
    That's sad but explains a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn?
    I have critical thinking skills, that's one qualification. Furthermore, I let others do the actually criticizing in my post so my qualifications here don't actually matter. Zinn himself offered as much criticism of his own work and motivations to be enough.

    Finally, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer, I'm just not fond of c*ck measuring contests and prefer to let the quality of my information speak for itself. I know these ideas are foreign to you, dwt. Your comment, "Zinn is up there with the best of the all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt." just shows how unqualified you are. Learn or don't learn, but the joy you take in your own ignorance does not obligate others to remain uninformed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct.
    Careful, you are out of your league here. You make the same mistake you always do, you assume that what the majority believes establishes fact. Einstein was outvoted on the undertainty principle, doesn't mean he was wrong.

  81. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    How do you differentiate when he is offering good information from when he is selling some crap he cooked up?
    Misinformation is worse than no information at all.
    Exactly, you cannot. Lennard Zinn is a liar for monetary gain. He should be ignored.

  82. #382
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    That's sad but explains a lot.


    I have critical thinking skills, that's one qualification. Furthermore, I let others do the actually criticizing in my post so my qualifications here don't actually matter. Zinn himself offered as much criticism of his own work and motivations to be enough.

    Finally, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer, I'm just not fond of c*ck measuring contests and prefer to let the quality of my information speak for itself. I know these ideas are foreign to you, dwt. Your comment, "Zinn is up there with the best of the all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt." just shows how unqualified you are. Learn or don't learn, but the joy you take in your own ignorance does not obligate others to remain uninformed.
    You really have to get over yourself.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    You really have to get over yourself.
    If you don't want the answer don't ask the question.

    Your foot-stomping temper tantrums won't get you your way here. You should have learned that by now. Stupid things said angrily are still stupid, in fact even more so.

  84. #384
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    If you don't want the answer don't ask the question.

    Your foot-stomping temper tantrums won't get you your way here. You should have learned that by now. Stupid things said angrily are still stupid, in fact even more so.
    Who's having a tantrum? Who's saying stupid things? Who is overly full of himself?

    Being a condescending obnoxious turd does not help you in your quest to become a respected MTBR pundit, or a pundit anywhere

    "Dear Velonews: enclosed please find my resume for review submitted to replace Lennard Zinn as technical writer for your publications. While I have not published any books on bicycle maintenance, do not have 50 years of experience, and am unknown outside of my family, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer. As a respected pundit on MTBR mountain bike forums, where I am known as "Dr. Science", I regularly school unwashed idiots who know squat, and I have countless green chicklets. Lennard Zinn can't say that. Indeed, despite his vast experience and world wide reputation as an expert in the field of bicycle mechanics, Mr. Zinn is in fact a fraud and an idiot who has said wrong things on numerous occasions. If I were replace him, you can rest assured that no technical misinformation would ever be published again by Velonews. I'm always right and I never lie.

    Very truly yours,

    craigsj"
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  85. #385
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    Nice continued discussion of crank arm length here:

    Crank Length: Coming Full Circle

    McDaniel elaborates:

    “During one particular study, Martin and I recorded athletes’ oxygen consumption while cycling on a stationary bike in the lab. We used crank lengths of 145, 170 and 195 mm; pedaling rates of 40, 60, 80 and 100 rpm’s; and intensity levels of 30, 60 and 90% of lactate threshold.

    “We found that the power produced (i.e. force applied to move the pedals) during exertion accounted for 95% of oxygen consumption (V02). Changes in crank length and pedal rate had the capacity to alter oxygen consumption or efficiency by about 3%."


    Cobb mentioned working with a rider that was 6'5" and they got the efficiency desired using 165mm cranks (and 65 watts increase in power). I wonder if Cobb, McDaniel, or Martin worked with any cycling athletes that were in the 6'8" - 7' realm? If so, it would be interesting to see the crank length efficiency and results for that type of athlete compared to the one's they did work with for their respective studies. As well, it would be interesting to see the difference in demands for triathlete, TT, road cycling, mountain biking, cyclocross, SS'ing, etc... with regard to efficiency and whether or not certain types of cycling are more efficient with an adjustment in length or not.

    craigsj and meltingfeather are simply (and correctly) trying to remove any "Bro Science" from the equation. And rightly so. Having been found guilty of BroScience (or more aplty BS) before by craigsj and meltingfeather, I have learned much from both.

    I do, however, enjoy Zinn's take on the specific niche that he builds bikes for - the tall man and the travelling tall man's bike. The bikes at least include a much taller head tube. In terms of providing a service, it is a good thing that he provides cycles to guys who cannot normally buy off the shelf rigs due to the demographics of cyclists over 6'4" precluding major companies from producing super HUGE frames to such a small percentage of customers. Ditto to Grant Rivendell (and others) who can build a super huge frame for really tall drinks of water that equal such a small percentage of the population.

    I saw two Zinn custom road bikes on RAGBRAI last week - both a father and a son who were 6'8" and 6'9" respectively. I didn't even look at their cranks, but was fascinated with the length of the head tubes and top tubes compared to my size XXXL Specialized Roubaix (has stock 175mm cranks).

    I did look at the Zinn insprired KHS Flyte 747 last year when buying a new road bike, but I wanted to avoid the 200mm cranks that it was designed to come stock with due to the crank arm length debate/research - and the bike was purpose built to handle a much heavier rider than I am and felt it would be all a bit on the overkill side (especially now that I weigh 165).

    One of my favorite blogs for the tall man tells the story of living life in a world designed for shorter people. This guy adapts many things (including his bikes) to fit. Might be some BroScience in there with regard to his quest for bike stuff (he talks about Zinn and longer custom cranks) that fits and works for him, but I especially enjoy how he made his snow shovel and rake "fit". And the way he does dishes at a kitchen sink designed for the median height person is hillarious.

    Tall Adaptations


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    For XC oriented hard tails, I don't see 27.5/650b overtaking 29ers any time soon.

    As an XC racer, despite only being 5'6", I prefer the rolling speed and lateral grip of 29ers over the smaller wheel sizes. I imagine many others do, too.
    What do you ride? What is your inseam?
    Every 29er I have tried so far has -2" to -3" of standover clearance.

  87. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    What do you ride? What is your inseam?
    Every 29er I have tried so far has -2" to -3" of standover clearance.
    Chinese carbon hardtail; IP-057. 30" cycling inseam. Although that might be changing next year, depending how the season turns out, and who I ride for.

    Very pleased with the frame. Well built, light, not displeasing to the eye.
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  88. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    ...does not help you in your quest to become a respected MTBR pundit
    I have no such quest, recognition from MTBR means nothing. I have no interest in being lead cheerleader for any MTBR clique either, I'll leave that to you.

  89. #389
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    I'm 6' 3" with a 35" inseam. Ten years ago, my first MTB was "26er", a Giant Yukon SE. Last year, I upgraded to a Giant Talon 29er, which fit better but that bike wasn't enjoyable so, this year, I upgraded to a Salsa El Mar (and just bought a Salsa Fargo). To me, the Salsa's fit far better and are a more enjoyable ride than a 26er, or any Giant.

    Of course, I've become a true Salsa disciple so I have zero interest in what Giant is or is not producing (or Trek/Specialized/Cannondale for that matter).

  90. #390
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    Just a quick look at all the new bikes. What is the ratio of the new 27.5 to 29" released in last 12months?
    I would guess 5 to 1?
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29". It is easier to fit an average height guy or a woman on a 27.5 frame.
    So yeas, I believe 27.5 will start outselling 29" in a near future.

  91. #391
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    Just a quick look at all the new bikes. What is the ratio of the new 27.5 to 29" released in last 12months?
    I would guess 5 to 1?
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29". It is easier to fit an average height guy or a woman on a 27.5 frame.
    So yeas, I believe 27.5 will start outselling 29" in a near future.
    Unfortunately, models released doesn't equal more sales. Most of those are long travel models; most riders out there would be better suited to a 100-120mm 29er than a 140-160mm 27.5 bike.

    Why? Because the vast majority of trails, and riders, don't need that amount of travel.



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  92. #392
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Unfortunately, models released doesn't equal more sales. Most of those are long travel models; most riders out there would be better suited to a 100-120mm 29er than a 140-160mm 27.5 bike.

    Why? Because the vast majority of trails, and riders, don't need that amount of travel.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree, most riders don't need that much travel.
    I would argue about 5" travel 29" being a better choice than a 27.5". It varies from a rider to rider, different trails and continent.
    I ride in SoCal and while a 4-5" travel 29" might be ideal for 95% of the trails, I would still pick a 5" 27.5 for its more playful nature.
    If I was doing 5+ hours xc ride I would take my 4" 29er instead.
    29" might stay the most selling in the US. But I doubt it will be the case in Europe or Asia.
    Europe never bought into 29" as much as US did.
    Majority of Asian market would fit on a 650b better than on a 29".

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    I have multiple friends stationed in Europe. 29ers sell like hot cakes in Germany and Italy. Crushing the other two wheel sizes.


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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I have multiple friends stationed in Europe. 29ers sell like hot cakes in Germany and Italy. Crushing the other two wheel sizes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well, I am from Europe and spend there few weeks every year. I usually bring my bike with me. My info differs from yours. But anyway, until we see some official sales figures, all this is just a speculation.

  95. #395
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    Yes but we males must speculate about all things size related. It's undeniable human nature that can't be suppressed.

  96. #396
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by stevet43 View Post
    Yes but we males must speculate about all things size related. It's undeniable human nature that can't be suppressed.
    There's that. But many Euro riders are obsessive weight weenies when it comes to their bikes, and bigger always means heavier.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    There's a bar I used to play at that had a neon sign: "Free Beer Tomorrow."
    Keep moving your target (now 2-3 years from your original projection) and you may be right someday... but that kind of misses the intent of a prediction, doesn't it?
    How about we count the years since 650b was first produced until it actually gains traction? Over a decade now? Or how about count the 650b frames and tires that have been discontinued for lack of sales?
    The marketeer's product replacement for the adapted kid's wheel that took too long to die is sort of a pathetic claim to fame, but whatever floats your boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    But anyway, until we see some official sales figures, all this is just a speculation.
    lol... sez the guy who was making predictions a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29".
    They would have to start carrying them first.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 08-05-2014 at 11:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    There's that. But many Euro riders are obsessive weight weenies when it comes to their bikes, and bigger always means heavier.
    Why don't they ride 24" then?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  99. #399
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    Seems like 27.5 is the new 26....but why should you worry about the
    29er market? 29er will not disappear....but they will not dominate the market by 100% either.....in my view the times of one "standard" wheel - size im mountainbiking are over.....we will have the choice, which is an extremely good thing!

  100. #400
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Why don't they ride 24" then?
    Diminishing returns, obviously. Running would be lighter still, and totally unsuccessful

    Jerome Clementz wins Enduros on 26"
    Nico Vouilloz and Fabian Barel prefer 27.5"

    A few Euros on 29", but certainly not popular among them (I exclude Tracy Mosely)
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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