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  1. #151
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    If you base all your purchasing decisions on what the magazine's/ advertising tell you to buy, then I could see the confusion. If you test ride bikes and buy what you like, I don't see how anyone would be confused.

    Every manufacturer wants something unique and giant decided to go the 650 route!
    Last edited by Tillers_Rule; 08-03-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  2. #152
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    Some people at Giant are investing big in 650b.

    They want to make sure they get a return on that investment, or they will be in trouble with their boss.

    Therefore, those people want to spread the message that 650b is WONDERFUL, and everything else is AWFUL.

    I wouldn't mind a 650b in my quiver, but they can pry my 29er from my cold dead hands .
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  3. #153
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    Newbie here, but one thing strikes me as odd to the main reasoning behind the whole 650b thing, and that is its "nimbleness". Wouldn't a 29er with a steeper head tube angle provide the needed nimbleness with the advantages of the 29" wheel?

  4. #154
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    A nimble 29er can be done with just a few tweaks with the right bike. Shorter/ inverted stems, going tubeless to bring rotational weight down. Lots of different ways it can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.

    Anyways here's what Giant is saying about wheel sizes
    "Can we expect to see 29 and 26-inch wheels eventually disappear in Giant's consumer-priced bikes in the near future?

    · 26-inch for sure, but 29-inch will be dependent on market feedback. That said, if the market progresses the way we believe it will, 29-inch will be phased out in approximately two years....again, totally dependent on market feedback."

    Taken from - 650B For Giant's 2014 Elite-Level Mountain Bikes - Pinkbike

    As someone who has been looking into 29ers for my next XC race bike this is a bit troublesome. I know they're just talking about the Giant line but I would guess that other bike makers have the same thought process.
    seen it too. my thoughts

    i went to a international xc event recently. all 29ers apart from one 26er. giant are jumping the gun. 2 years 29ers gone. pffftt. It will take longer than that imho

    also read that giant is going 650b and pumping it up because its hard to get maestro suspension crammed into a nice tight package with short chainstays. Maybe? nice theory. the anthem 29 was a bit slow steering in the tight stuff. and they really had to warp the frame of the trance to fit the wheels in.

    Looks like their marketing department is going to go into over-drive and try and claim that 650b, according to their testing, is some holy-grail magical wheel standard that has the best aspects of 26 and 29. They havent provided any actual figures or detailed their methodology...just made claims. Says a lot to me that they are light on actual data with some of the claims they are making. 650b is just another wheel standard with pros and cons...at best it will kill of 26. But looks like giant is going flog it hard and getting ready to spin a lot of bs. I certainly dont believe their claims about 650b...not that i'd rule out owning a 27.5/ 27/ 650b bike in the future. pretty happy on the 29er at the moment though.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Holy$ View Post
    Looks like their marketing department is going to go into over-drive
    I think you meant overdrive-2 :-)

  7. #157
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    I've read various forms of this theory in many posts.

    What I don't get--and pardon my ignorance, I don't do any downhilling--is why wouldn't DH eventually migrate to bigger wheels? IF the tires are there someday, it seems they would enjoy the rollover advantages of bigger wheels, while their relatively faster, open courses would minimize the disadvantages of the long wheelbase of a FS 29er (or 650B).

    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    Here is what I see.
    29ers are here to stay at least in within XC and some Trial.

    Specialized, Intense, Niner and others are trying to get 29ers into the longer travel All Mountain/Enduro arena, which may or may not take off and catch on.

    650b is taking off and will dominate the Trail, All Mountain and Enduro here over the next few years, and will also be big player within XC along with 29ers.

    26” wheels are going to die a slow painful death over the next few years.

    XC - 650b and 29ers (won’t see any new 26 XC bikes)
    Trail - 650b and fewer 29ers than today
    All Mountain/Enduro – 650b (don’t think 29ers are going to make it here)
    DH – 26 and 650b

    650b is going to kill off 26” and cut into the 29er Trail and XC bikes.

  8. #158
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    I don't downhill either, but aren't those courses technical, lots of jumps, root and rock obstacles to plow over? The smaller wheel can be built stronger, and able to withstand more abuse of that sort without buckling.

  9. #159
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I had the opposite experience. Felt the 650 was the worst of both worlds with out any advantage.
    So, there's:

    1) Goldilocks, best of both;

    2) WTF?, worst of both; and

    3) Meh, can't tell any difference from 26".

    IOW: All in the eyes of the beholder; to each his own; whatever floats your boat, etc.

    Love it, then buy it.

    Don't love it or hate it; don't buy it.

    Simple. The actual market, what sells and what does not, will answer the question as to what bikes will be on the LBS floor 2014 and beyond, like it or not.

    Again, my crystal ball says all 3 sizes available for the rest of my lifetime. Whatever...
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I don't downhill either, but aren't those courses technical, lots of jumps, root and rock obstacles to plow over? The smaller wheel can be built stronger, and able to withstand more abuse of that sort without buckling.
    additonally, aren't those high volume DH tires something like 27.5 anyway? Haven't seen one yet, though. I can only extrapolate from my former 26 xc rig with 2.25 RaRa and my 26 Enduro with 2.4 Ardents.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Holy$ View Post
    also read that giant is going 650b and pumping it up because its hard to get maestro suspension crammed into a nice tight package with short chainstays.

    They havent provided any actual figures or detailed their methodology...just made claims. Says a lot to me that they are light on actual data with some of the claims they are making.
    Take it for what you will, but at the LBS they had some marketing material showing their test/data results. It was testing contact patch, weight, angle of attack, something else too, but can't remember. I only looked at the bottom data results for a quick second, and it may have elaborated more at the top about how they did their tests, I don't know.

    In all categories where the 29er is advantageous, the 27.5 was closer to the 29er (rather than 50%, in the middle btw 26 and 29). And the same for areas where 26er is better, it was closer to the 26. It was never just 50% in the middle btw the 2 sizes. Again, some scientific data or just propaganda from Giant? I don't know, but would think they'd have some science behind the investment.

    One data point I noticed they didn't talk about was momentum. which in my personal experience seems a lot closer to the 26, with a slight improvement.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    I've read various forms of this theory in many posts.

    What I don't get--and pardon my ignorance, I don't do any downhilling--is why wouldn't DH eventually migrate to bigger wheels? IF the tires are there someday, it seems they would enjoy the rollover advantages of bigger wheels, while their relatively faster, open courses would minimize the disadvantages of the long wheelbase of a FS 29er (or 650B).
    I think that amount of suspension + 29 wheels, makes for a very tall bike. Also want to be able to make quick line changes, and a lot of steering from the hips. Just my guess.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    I think that amount of suspension + 29 wheels, makes for a very tall bike. Also want to be able to make quick line changes, and a lot of steering from the hips. Just my guess.
    Downeyville DH was won on a 29er. It's not the roughest course but it still happened.

    Also, generally speaking the bottom bracket on a 29 is lower than a 26. Thus you do not necessarily sit higher up on the wagon wheel bike.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Take it for what you will, but at the LBS they had some marketing material showing their test/data results. It was testing contact patch, weight, angle of attack, something else too, but can't remember. I only looked at the bottom data results for a quick second, and it may have elaborated more at the top about how they did their tests, I don't know.

    In all categories where the 29er is advantageous, the 27.5 was closer to the 29er (rather than 50%, in the middle btw 26 and 29). And the same for areas where 26er is better, it was closer to the 26. It was never just 50% in the middle btw the 2 sizes. Again, some scientific data or just propaganda from Giant?
    That wasn't "data" it didn't come from any real world test, it's just a nifty powerpoint presentation made in an office.

  15. #165
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    Funny, just read this thread and Giant was out in full force with demo rides at my local trail this morning, line of people waiting.

  16. #166
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    That wasn't "data" it didn't come from any real world test, it's just a nifty powerpoint presentation made in an office.
    Interesting, because it's Powerpoints that people have been using to dis 650b over the past year. Powerpoints and calculations do not help you when you are riding. The only way to decide if a bike suits you is to ride the piss out of it and you either like it or you don't. Entirely subjective. We've seen responses to 650b from perfect blend of 26" and 29", to worst of both, to can't tell the difference from 26". All over the map.

    For the price you pay for a well specced bike, I expect to love what I buy. Up to me decide and no one else.
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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trajan556 View Post
    Newbie here, but one thing strikes me as odd to the main reasoning behind the whole 650b thing, and that is its "nimbleness". Wouldn't a 29er with a steeper head tube angle provide the needed nimbleness with the advantages of the 29" wheel?
    Head angle is something that can be used to tune a ride, certainly, but drastic changes to make up other factors don't usually work. In this case, it's generally because the bike becomes twitchy and unstable with extremely upright head angle, something XC riders like but not trail, enduro, etc.

    Additionally, a problem with 29ers is that having frame clearance for large amounts of travel results in enormous bikes. 650b can handle the travel better. IMO this is the main reason for 650b, and why it's catching on in the enduro 6" travel crowd.
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  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Take it for what you will, but at the LBS they had some marketing material showing their test/data results. It was testing contact patch, weight, angle of attack, something else too, but can't remember. I only looked at the bottom data results for a quick second, and it may have elaborated more at the top about how they did their tests, I don't know.

    In all categories where the 29er is advantageous, the 27.5 was closer to the 29er (rather than 50%, in the middle btw 26 and 29). And the same for areas where 26er is better, it was closer to the 26. It was never just 50% in the middle btw the 2 sizes. Again, some scientific data or just propaganda from Giant? I don't know, but would think they'd have some science behind the investment.

    One data point I noticed they didn't talk about was momentum. which in my personal experience seems a lot closer to the 26, with a slight improvement.
    i think you mean this:

    650B For Giant's 2014 Elite-Level Mountain Bikes - Pinkbike

    they give you nothing here. Just marketing claims. no science

    and if you scroll down here is what i think is the best comment to the above by voidwanderer on Jul 29, 2013 at 2:46:

    Okay, guys, if you're lazy enough to believe those statements without a word and can't do the math for yourselves, I'll give you exact numbers.

    Given wheel sizes: 673mm for 26", 698mm for 650b and 736mm for 29".

    And we have a 3 inch square edged obstacle. Angles of attack:
    26" - 13.76°
    650 - 13.51°
    29" - 13.15°

    2 inch square edged obstacle? Not a problem:
    26" - 11.20°
    650 - 11.00°
    29" - 10.71°

    Anyone sees that 650b is closer to 29"? Not me.

    Now to contact patch. Anyone knows what is the circumference of a circle? It's formula is as simple as it can be: π*d, where d is diameter and π is constant 3.1415...
    Wheel circumferences:
    26" - 2114 mm
    650 - 2193 mm = 3.5% bigger than 26"
    29" - 2312 mm = 9% bigger than 26"

    And do you know what is contact patch? It's just a fixed fraction of total wheel circumference. Anyone knows why in Giant's poster 650b is suddenly closer to 29" in contact patch? I'll tell you what - it's not about physics or math. It's about company that is interested in selling new standard. Period.
    Giant is blowing smoke as far as im concerned. They havent proven anything.

    650b may be good for some and probably will kill off 26? But best of both worlds. doubt it. It will have slighlty better rollover over than 26 and be slighlty less nimble. Will it be an earth shattering difference, i doubt it....maybe for a few...maybe some will convince themselves there is a huge difference. As for almost matching 29 rollover etc...call BS on that. Giant hasnt proven a thing. Just marketing as yet

  19. #169
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    I get this image of a mountainside-- of snow
    Late winter with the overhang from a cornice dropping and down towards the bottom is a Giant rep wheeling out a 650.

  20. #170
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    Specialized has no 27.5 bikes.
    Just released a sick 29er enduro.
    That should tell you something.
    I have a salsa horse thief 29er it eats everything I throw at it and im 235# and wheels are still true.
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  21. #171
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by sdm74 View Post
    Specialized has no 27.5 bikes.
    Just released a sick 29er enduro.
    That should tell you something.
    It tells me that anyone who thinks 650b is a market driven phenomenon is either clueless or simply vomiting BS they picked up from someone who is talking out of their butt

    Lets see: the World's 2 largest bike companies, Giant and Trek, only very recently announced they would sell bikes with that wheel size, while the third largest, Spesh is still holding out & still heavily pushing and invested in 29" and also vocally still skeptical of 650b.

    By way of analogy, the top 3 auto companies are GM, Toyota and VW. Say Honda started pushing 100% electric cars in 2012, and generated tons of hype and publicity, while GM , Toyota & VW held out and VW actively dissed the concept, instead pushing diesel. Then summer 2013, GM and Toyota jump in, but VW still no plans & still pushing diesel while dissing electric.

    Even if every car mag and internet forum gushed about the superiority of electric, who would conclude electric is market driven?

    A nut job wearing a tin foil hat
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  22. #172
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    As a 6'-3" dude who is in my 40's and doesn't ride that crazy, a 29er is perfect for me. My friends even say my 29er looks like a 26er for an average person.

    For someone of average height? Or even short? Or on a DH bike? Use the best tool for the job. Smaller wheel sizes seem like a good idea to me.

    It doesn't matter to me. If there's a robust enough economy around crazy stuff like the Moonlander and Krampus, I can find something I like.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    As a 6'-3" dude who is in my 40's and doesn't ride that crazy, a 29er is perfect for me. My friends even say my 29er looks like a 26er for an average person.

    For someone of average height? Or even short? Or on a DH bike? Use the best tool for the job. Smaller wheel sizes seem like a good idea to me.

    It doesn't matter to me. If there's a robust enough economy around crazy stuff like the Moonlander and Krampus, I can find something I like.
    Yeah, for us taller riders a 29er is perfect. I've never had a bike that feels like it fits as well, so hopefully they stick around for that reason alone.

    I am leery of the 650b though, it would seem as it will be okay at everything, but not really good at anything. I guess it would be a matter of what you are willing to give up in order to gain some 650b benefits. I am happy with how my 29er accelerates and maneuvers in tight singletrack compared to my 26er, I see no reason to lose the rolling momentum and high speed stability of a 9er for slightly quicker handling.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Holy$ View Post
    i think you mean this:

    650B For Giant's 2014 Elite-Level Mountain Bikes - Pinkbike

    they give you nothing here. Just marketing claims. no science

    and if you scroll down here is what i think is the best comment to the above by voidwanderer on Jul 29, 2013 at 2:46:

    Okay, guys, if you're lazy enough to believe those statements without a word and can't do the math for yourselves, I'll give you exact numbers.

    Given wheel sizes: 673mm for 26", 698mm for 650b and 736mm for 29".

    And we have a 3 inch square edged obstacle. Angles of attack:
    26" - 13.76°
    650 - 13.51°
    29" - 13.15°

    2 inch square edged obstacle? Not a problem:
    26" - 11.20°
    650 - 11.00°
    29" - 10.71°

    Anyone sees that 650b is closer to 29"? Not me.

    Now to contact patch. Anyone knows what is the circumference of a circle? It's formula is as simple as it can be: π*d, where d is diameter and π is constant 3.1415...
    Wheel circumferences:
    26" - 2114 mm
    650 - 2193 mm = 3.5% bigger than 26"
    29" - 2312 mm = 9% bigger than 26"

    And do you know what is contact patch? It's just a fixed fraction of total wheel circumference. Anyone knows why in Giant's poster 650b is suddenly closer to 29" in contact patch? I'll tell you what - it's not about physics or math. It's about company that is interested in selling new standard. Period.


    Giant is blowing smoke as far as im concerned. They havent proven anything.

    650b may be good for some and probably will kill off 26? But best of both worlds. doubt it. It will have slighlty better rollover over than 26 and be slighlty less nimble. Will it be an earth shattering difference, i doubt it....maybe for a few...maybe some will convince themselves there is a huge difference. As for almost matching 29 rollover etc...call BS on that. Giant hasnt proven a thing. Just marketing as yet

    Wow. Where did the above numbers come from?

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Wow. Where did the above numbers come from?
    Someone who does not listen to what bike companies say, and takes measerments either by himself or through his lbs.
    Anyway, Why is Giant trying to bring 650b to XC? I know that Scott is, but that is only Nino Shurter, not anyone else on the Scott Swisspower Team.

  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Interesting, because it's Powerpoints that people have been using to dis 650b over the past year. Powerpoints and calculations do not help you when you are riding. The only way to decide if a bike suits you is to ride the piss out of it and you either like it or you don't. Entirely subjective. We've seen responses to 650b from perfect blend of 26" and 29", to worst of both, to can't tell the difference from 26". All over the map.

    For the price you pay for a well specced bike, I expect to love what I buy. Up to me decide and no one else.
    Exactly, you should just demo the crap out of a bike before you spend 5k, however you should understand that the bike company's job is not to make you happy but to make as many people happy as possible while still turning a profit, so it's not their fault if you don't fall within the 80% of the market slices that they are targeting.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post

    Anyway, Why is Giant trying to bring 650b to XC? I know that Scott is, but that is only Nino Shurter, not anyone else on the Scott Swisspower Team.
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    Exactly, you should just demo the crap out of a bike before you spend 5k, however you should understand that the bike company's job is not to make you happy but to make as many people happy as possible while still turning a profit, so it's not their fault if you don't fall within the 80% of the market slices that they are targeting.
    Odds are I will. If I don't I keep the $5k. At any rate, neither marketing hype nor interweb gossip will decide the matter.
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    Funny, it seems most calling it marketing BS and hype still haven't ridden one. Yet so many that have and noticed the difference did so years ago before the 'Industry push'.

    How is that possible? How did we ride a 650B and find it better without that PDF from Giant to tell us what to think?

    Enough, all of you spouting off numbers on paper are sounding DC, go ride one already and make up your own mind.
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  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Maybe Giant is just putting nasty rumors out there in order to try and control what people start buying.
    They don't need to. They make money no matter what's sold. Remember Giant is the largest bike manufacturer in the world. Just because your favorite bike company's name is on it doesn't mean they built it. It's probably a Giant.
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Funny, it seems most calling it marketing BS and hype still haven't ridden one. Yet so many that have and noticed the difference did so years ago before the 'Industry push'.

    How is that possible? How did we ride a 650B and find it better without that PDF from Giant to tell us what to think?

    Enough, all of you spouting off numbers on paper are sounding DC, go ride one already and make up your own mind.
    This!
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  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Funny, it seems most calling it marketing BS and hype still haven't ridden one. Yet so many that have and noticed the difference did so years ago before the 'Industry push'.

    How is that possible? How did we ride a 650B and find it better without that PDF from Giant to tell us what to think?

    Enough, all of you spouting off numbers on paper are sounding DC, go ride one already and make up your own mind.
    The fact of the matter is, most bikers today need marketing BS and powerpoint slideshows from Giant to make up their mind. If it helps them buy a better bike, so be it. But let's call a spade a spade when we see one. 650b is no longer a grassroots wonderchild, just like 29" a few years before it has evolved into a for-profit corporate whore. Nothing wrong with that really... it's just the way the industry works. If wheel size is just a matter of choosing the right tool for the job, you won't care one bit. The only people that will be kicking and screaming are the ones who feel the need to love one wheel size over all others. Sorry boys, but the love stops here. You have Giant to thank for that.

  33. #183
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    The fact of the matter is, most bikers today need marketing BS and powerpoint slideshows from Giant to make up their mind. If it helps them buy a better bike, so be it. But let's call a spade a spade when we see one. 650b is no longer a grassroots wonderchild, just like 29" a few years before it has evolved into a for-profit corporate whore. Nothing wrong with that really... it's just the way the industry works. If wheel size is just a matter of choosing the right tool for the job, you won't care one bit. The only people that will be kicking and screaming are the ones who feel the need to love one wheel size over all others. Sorry boys, but the love stops here. You have Giant to thank for that.
    By most bikers, I assume you mean newbs or at least inexperienced ones. They would be most susceptible to "latest and greatest" & "best thing since sliced bread" marketing because they know no better.

    It seems to me those who fall into the love one wheel size over the others category are equally represented by experienced riders in each wheel size.

    26'ers are still the majority, but starting to shrink. Those die hard experienced 26'er riders who love the lightest, most maneuverable wheel and can handle it anywhere will NEVER be influenced by the hype, marketing or Kool aid of any larger wheels. If they withstood the 29'er onslaught, the current one will not affect them.

    Longtime 29'er riders who have totally embraced and adjusted to it will NEVER be attracted to any smaller wheel, especially one so close to the size they traded for their 29'ers.

    So the 650b hype is aimed at "no opinion" riders or segments of experienced riders who are for whatever reason interesting in at least trying something different due to some sort of dissatisfaction with their current ride. A 26'er rider who might see an advantage in a slight improvement in angle of attack and contact patch, with the trade off of a little more weight and a little less flickability. But not all the way up to wagon wheels. A 29'er rider who might see an advantage in lighter and stiffer, with the trade off of less angle of attack and contact patch, but not all the way back to square one. These experienced riders can demo the 650b and just decide for themselves whether they like it or not and why. It is an insult to an experienced rider to tell them they are only buying into hype and aren't "really" experiencing anything different when they demo a 650b bike.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  34. #184
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    The funny thing about Giants advertising is that the only aspect where the 27.5 is better than the 26er but not as good as the 29er is in the contact patch/traction and rollover capabilities. Judging by the number of riders on 29ers these days we have already decided that the multiple other areas where the 26er is better (according to Giant) than the 29er and the 27.5 aren't outweighed by the superior rollover ability of the 29er. Personally I've bought three 29ers in the past 4 years or so and I still own all three of them. KM, Honzo, LTc. I find each one of them to be more fun than my previous 26 inch bikes, hence the reason I still own them. Giant wants to commit fully to 27.5? So be it. The last thing anyone wants is someone telling them what kind of bike to ride.

  35. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Funny, it seems most calling it marketing BS and hype still haven't ridden one. Yet so many that have and noticed the difference did so years ago before the 'Industry push'.

    How is that possible? How did we ride a 650B and find it better without that PDF from Giant to tell us what to think?

    Enough, all of you spouting off numbers on paper are sounding DC, go ride one already and make up your own mind.
    I second this.

    I have ridden only one bike for 8+ years -- a 24-pound rigid singlespeed, Salsa Ala Carte --and am looking for a new bike, full-suspension and all. I don't have and don't care for allegiance to any wheel size.

    I previously had doubts about the "marketing push" of the 29er (yes, back in the days) but have tried about 10 of them lately. I now believe in the bigger wheels--even though I am only 5'6" --and want a Santa Cruz, either Superlight 29 or Tallboy. (The Tallboy I tested was version 1, with the tight standover. Version 2 is supposed to address this and better overall.)

    I then came across this new "marketing push" about 27.5 and dismissed it as silly. Why would I care about some minimal advantages offered by a 27.5 when I can have the whole thing with a 29er?

    On Friday, I stopped by a local shop to see if they have the new Tallboy 2. They did not, but had a Medium Solo that just came in. It was the aluminum Orange--my favorite color!

    I tested it back-to-back with the Medium Superlight 29. Both were spec'd with Santa Cruz's "R" kit, so components and everything were identical, saved for the travel and wheel size.

    I was surprised. The Solo felt much dialed, both on climbs, downs, and curb hopping. It pedaled much better in all the 3 Fox CTD settings. It "felt" much faster to me, even on flats. And I was DOUBLY SURPRISED to find out that it weighed about 2 pounds more (30.5 versus 28.5). The Solo felt much lighter and easier to handle to me.

    So, my verdict?

    1. It's not marketing; I could tell a difference between the 3 wheel sizes.

    2. But perhaps the difference could have been the different suspension design rather than wheel size--Superlight's single pivot vs. Solo's VPP. (For example, I liked the Tallboy's VPP better than Superlight's SP.)

    3. Or it could be because a 27.5 fits my size (5'6, 150lb) better--even though all 3 bikes are from the same manufacturer, same size, and same reach/standover.

    4. In any event, after an actual test ride, I can say that I like the Solo, despite my initial, unfounded reservations about 27.5.

    5. I won't make a final decision until I try out the new Tallboy 2 - 29. It's going a new bike for me any way, so either wheel size would be fine, as long as it fits my style and preference.

  36. #186
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    Solo is much more comparable to a TB2. Not saying you won't like the Solo better. Simply pointing it out.

    Are you sure about the stand over being reduced? My wife is 5'4" and can stand comfortably over her size M TB.

  37. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeKay View Post
    I second this.

    I have ridden only one bike for 8+ years -- a 24-pound rigid singlespeed, Salsa Ala Carte --and am looking for a new bike, full-suspension and all. I don't have and don't care for allegiance to any wheel size.

    I previously had doubts about the "marketing push" of the 29er (yes, back in the days) but have tried about 10 of them lately. I now believe in the bigger wheels--even though I am only 5'6" --and want a Santa Cruz, either Superlight 29 or Tallboy. (The Tallboy I tested was version 1, with the tight standover. Version 2 is supposed to address this and better overall.)

    I then came across this new "marketing push" about 27.5 and dismissed it as silly. Why would I care about some minimal advantages offered by a 27.5 when I can have the whole thing with a 29er?

    On Friday, I stopped by a local shop to see if they have the new Tallboy 2. They did not, but had a Medium Solo that just came in. It was the aluminum Orange--my favorite color!

    I tested it back-to-back with the Medium Superlight 29. Both were spec'd with Santa Cruz's "R" kit, so components and everything were identical, saved for the travel and wheel size.

    I was surprised. The Solo felt much dialed, both on climbs, downs, and curb hopping. It pedaled much better in all the 3 Fox CTD settings. It "felt" much faster to me, even on flats. And I was DOUBLY SURPRISED to find out that it weighed about 2 pounds more (30.5 versus 28.5). The Solo felt much lighter and easier to handle to me.

    So, my verdict?

    1. It's not marketing; I could tell a difference between the 3 wheel sizes.

    2. But perhaps the difference could have been the different suspension design rather than wheel size--Superlight's single pivot vs. Solo's VPP. (For example, I liked the Tallboy's VPP better than Superlight's SP.)

    3. Or it could be because a 27.5 fits my size (5'6, 150lb) better--even though all 3 bikes are from the same manufacturer, same size, and same reach/standover.

    4. In any event, after an actual test ride, I can say that I like the Solo, despite my initial, unfounded reservations about 27.5.

    5. I won't make a final decision until I try out the new Tallboy 2 - 29. It's going a new bike for me any way, so either wheel size would be fine, as long as it fits my style and preference.
    Part of what you were feeling on the Solo was the VPP suspension. Its job is to reduce peddle bob and it also descends much better than the single pivot design on the Superlight. Don't get me wrong, the Superlight is a great bike (I own one and love it), but the Solo is a different beast entirely. The Superlight is more of an entry level bike, whereas the Solo is a much more advanced bike. The Tallboy should ride more like the Solo just in 29er form

  38. #188
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    "local shop weighed the size medium - at my request - build was setup with tubes (not tubeless) and no pedals. Giant Trance 1, 275. Aluminum. 29.4 pounds" (Source)

    MSRP on that is $3,500 USD. I guess it's not that much lighter than a 29er after all.



    "Trance X 29er 1 (left) retails for $2,775 USD, weighs 29.6 lbs, and features Fox air suspension, Sram X7 parts grouppo, and Giant's P-XC29er wheelset." (Source)
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  39. #189
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post

    "local shop weighed the size medium - at my request - build was setup with tubes (not tubeless) and no pedals. Giant Trance 1, 275. Aluminum. 29.4 pounds" (Source)

    MSRP on that is $3,500 USD. I guess it's not that much lighter than a 29er after all.



    "Trance X 29er 1 (left) retails for $2,775 USD, weighs 29.6 lbs, and features Fox air suspension, Sram X7 parts grouppo, and Giant's P-XC29er wheelset." (Source)
    Now why would they do that... surely they're not trying to squeeze a decent margin out of people who take statements like "no more 29ers in two years" seriously... right, guys?!?
    I've got nothing against 27.5. It's a pretty uninteresting story, but if it works for you, ride that s**t.
    I have to laugh at the effectiveness in generating buzz of a couple of completely ridiculous one-liners, but that's why marketing guys make the big bucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  40. #190
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    I have to laugh at the effectiveness in generating buzz of a couple of completely ridiculous one-liners, but that's why marketing guys make the big bucks.
    Or lose their jobs if they go too far out on a limb. We shall see.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  41. #191
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I'm not going to pretend that the TB is not a great bike, because it clearly is top shelf in its class. I upgraded the wheels and lowered the gearing, and it is a svelte sub 11.4 kilo, 120mm XC bike that climbs like a goat and does all the other 29'er stuff as advertised. However, I've given it 3 mos. of serious saddle time, and personally just can't fall in love with it. I find it clunky and cumbersome in tight single track, a challenge in tight switchbacks - going up or down- and just plain not a fun playful companion.
    Still you haven't tried Enduro 29 with shorter CS. This bike is designed to be playful. Check the rewieves.

    Maybe my riding skills do suck- I'm willing to consider that. However, for $5000 why should I have to adjust myself to the bike? At that price, the bike should fit me.
    Yeah your 26er-like riding habit is to blame. You owned just one 29er, which isn't the best out there.

    This reaction is personal and subjective, and your tedious and BS math is entirely irrelevant.
    Wrong. Remember the first suspended forks? They were done poorly. 29er specific parts do not exist, if they did, then the contemporary 29ers would be much better ones.
    The numbers are solid- all parts used on 29ers are 26er specific. Imagine all parts used in lorries being designed for small town cars to pick up grocery.

    As we say here in the States, F**k
    You, DC. You are living proof that the most obnoxious and insufferable people in the world are not necessarily 'Murcans. Thanks for helping to take the pressure off, you arrogant, elitist piece of shyte.
    You do not comprehend the logic and numbers you twisted old phuck. Most senses deceive us and we follow what is the most similar to what we caurrently use. We are reluctant to drastic changes. Reaarange you riding technique, add spokes to 29er wheels, broaden the hubs widths, out 20-24mm front axles, add 20 front and 38 rear rings. Stop preaching 584mm rim!

  42. #192
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    Face it Cooperfeld the 29er you so rabidly promoted has been usurped by the little wheel forces. Bow down before the 650b nation for they are about to overrun you.

  43. #193
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    Abc

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    If you've ridden for isntance Enduro 29 you would ditch 584mm rims, because there are unstable and lack traction vs 29er. Just arrange a 20 teeth front ring and 38 or 39 rear behing 34 or 36. Change your 26er habits.
    Enduro 29 is just 13mm longer than its 26er counterpart. Bulding it with smaller wheels would be a huge compromise (steeping back by 38mm) even bigger than a gain of 27,5 over a 26er (25mm). Completely out of whack.

    I see that you are religious fanatic on Pacenti's payroll for thrusting 27.5 down users throat. Many are fed up with your approach. It is your problem that cannot ride 29ers nor can you understand that there are different forces at work with bigger wheels, but you are lame at physics.
    We need parts designed around 29er wheel not 26er, can't you understand that?

    Had you bribed Giant's designer or God Kirk had done it?

    This Giant's 27,5er advertisement reads like penis enlargement pills ad, perhaps that's why you like it
    Who is it targeted at? Chimpanzees, gorillas or other primates? Definitely not at intellingent 29er riders.
    They are not making the world better by shrinking the wheel. They admitted they suck at bulding competetive 29ers.

    It has been proved that 26er HT is dead and by far outpaced by its 29er counterpart and out of the blued just 25mm larger wheel changes the whole physics and beats 29ers in HT? Ridiculous. Smelss only like money.
    Still there is rolling reaistance in 27,5er, OTB proneness, twichiness, lack of traction, high centre of gravity, those things do not disappear when the wheel just grows from 26 by mere 25mm upto 27,5. Some just fail to acknowlegde this.
    I get an effing headache reading this

  44. #194
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by marcodeluca View Post
    I get an effing headache reading this
    The word "effing" just might be more of a ridiculous flail than DC's sermons.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  45. #195
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The word "effing" just might be more of a ridiculous flail than DC's sermons.
    Not humanly possible. DC's sermons + his use of the word "phuck" is the absolute limit of ridiculous. Nothing else comes close.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  46. #196
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Not humanly possible. DC's sermons + his use of the word "phuck" is the absolute limit of ridiculous. Nothing else comes close.
    I don't know... the "murican" self-deprecating guilt complex is up there too.
    But I digress...
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  47. #197
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    Anyone of you using a Trance x 29er 2013. Do you find it difficult to steer during fast tight turns?

  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by rave81 View Post
    Anyone of you using a Trance x 29er 2013. Do you find it difficult to steer during fast tight turns?
    Yes, it is quite slack. Lean further back and take some weight off the front end.
    "The ONLY person who needs to race.....is the entrant"

  49. #199
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.

    Anyways here's what Giant is saying about wheel sizes
    "Can we expect to see 29 and 26-inch wheels eventually disappear in Giant's consumer-priced bikes in the near future?

    · 26-inch for sure, but 29-inch will be dependent on market feedback. That said, if the market progresses the way we believe it will, 29-inch will be phased out in approximately two years....again, totally dependent on market feedback."

    Taken from - 650B For Giant's 2014 Elite-Level Mountain Bikes - Pinkbike

    As someone who has been looking into 29ers for my next XC race bike this is a bit troublesome. I know they're just talking about the Giant line but I would guess that other bike makers have the same thought process.
    I was originally looking for a 26er for my first real mountain bike, but our local bike shops recommend the 29ers for the quality of ride. One of the shops actually had to spend a few minutes just to explain me the technical aspects of it, which I quickly understood (I'm somewhat of a geeky person). When I gave one a try, I immediately felt the significant difference. That's why I ended up with a 29er.

    I don't know how bike shops in other parts of the world advise their customers. But if they tend to do the same as the shops in our area, there is no way the 29er will get phased out.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

  50. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post

    "local shop weighed the size medium - at my request - build was setup with tubes (not tubeless) and no pedals. Giant Trance 1, 275. Aluminum. 29.4 pounds" (Source)

    MSRP on that is $3,500 USD. I guess it's not that much lighter than a 29er after all.



    "Trance X 29er 1 (left) retails for $2,775 USD, weighs 29.6 lbs, and features Fox air suspension, Sram X7 parts grouppo, and Giant's P-XC29er wheelset." (Source)
    Interesting. After seeing the weights you posted I got curious and weighed my old (05) Sugar 293 (still my main bike).. . . 29.4 pounds. I've added a bit of weight via braided cables, larger rotors, pedals and whatnot. The original listed weight is 27lbs. I guess it just convinces me there's no need to move out of my current ride, despite it being eight years old.


    As far as the 650b issue. . .. .I can remember all the naysayers back in 04 when I picked up my 29er. . . . . . sounded a lot like this.

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