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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    ... Kudos to the Giant marketing folks for getting a boatload of free publicity by making silly comments!

    -Walt
    Nailed it. the goal of a new bike rollout is to generate publicity. You don't generate publicity with soft-spoken, pragmatic, deliberative claims. You make bold statements. Bold statements that will excite and engage their dealer network into strongly selling customers that wander into their shops...

  2. #202
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    Sounds like Giant is just tired of the hassle and expense of designing/manufacturing/stocking cycles with two different wheel sizes. Hey, why not just split the middle and convince everyone that a single size is "just right?" Time will tell how this approach will turn out.

    For me, Giant is the Samsung of bike manufacturers. I'll steer clear no matter what size they're pushing at the moment.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    Sounds like Giant is just tired of the hassle and expense of designing/manufacturing/stocking cycles with two different wheel sizes. Hey, why not just split the middle and convince everyone that a single size is "just right?" Time will tell how this approach will turn out.

    For me, Giant is the Samsung of bike manufacturers. I'll steer clear no matter what size they're pushing at the moment.
    So who is the innovative apple of the MTB market for interest sake?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack0207 View Post
    So who is the innovative apple of the MTB market for interest sake?
    Recently i think i would have said Santa Cruz and the Tallboys (possibly still due to 650B's they are churning out every week)

    Then im torn as Specialized arent really at the forefront....THEN they brought out the 155mm Enduro with short chainstays.

    Lapierre have the IE Intellegent suspension thats pretty innovative.

    BUT if your just generally talking then SRAM seem to be innovative....historically 2x10 then 1 x 11.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    BUT if your just generally talking then SRAM seem to be innovative....historically 2x10 then 1 x 11.
    Not sure I would call SRAM innovative for those reasons.
    Double cranksets have been around for decades, nothing groundbreaking there. Folks running from 1x<pick your number> for decades, so nothing groundbreaking there. Even their type 2 clutch used in XX1 was out due to Shimano releasing it first.

  6. #206
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    I bow to your historical knowledge .... im surprised it didnt take off before then.

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    It din't "take off" for a number of reasons, all beyond the purpose of this thread. I just reacted to the fact of calling 1x and 2x cranksets innovative, where 1x has been available since the invention of a modern bicycle, and 2x from the invention of a front derailleur, and both are derived from 3x by simply removing the rings.

    SRAM has had a fair share of (theoretically) meaningful innovations such as HammerSchmidt (didn't take off).

    Producing an affordable, light and reliable gearbox would be called innovative, but there is no XXI money involved and parts don't wear (that fast), so innovation is not in the interest of the manufacturer.

  8. #208
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    [QUOTE=scatterbrained


    As far as the 650b issue. . .. .I can remember all the naysayers back in 04 when I picked up my 29er. . . . . . sounded a lot like this.[/QUOTE]

    This is what I am observing.

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  9. #209
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    This is BMC's test results on the 3 wheel sizes. A bit of a different take than Giant.

    BMC Trail Fox 29 ? First Look - BikeRadar

    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused-1376408169247-5jlmqybslcdl-670-70.png

    Tim

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    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.

  11. #211
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    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent (definitely not miles per hour- LOL). A chart means nothing if it is not clearly defined.

    Greater performance? What is the unit of measure on that? Also notice that there is nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails, or anything relating to agility, flicka-bility, jumps, drops, etc. That is because a 26er would be better for that and it would throw their evaluation off.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent. Greater performance? What is the unit of measure on that? Also notice that there is nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails, or anything relating to agility.
    Yes, but the 29er lines are taller so its better (and this one goes to 11).

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    That chart looks very biased to me. It does not even define what the vertical numbers represent (definitely not miles per hour- LOL). A chart means nothing if it is not clearly defined.
    It appears that they simply took the 26" bike's performance in each category and made it the baseline (100%). Then ran the 650b and 29" through the same test and compared its performance to the 26". So in the technical downhill test, the 29er had an 8% performance gain over the 26" bike, while the 650b had a 2% performance gain.

    I don't know why the data would be "biased" when BMC was simply doing internal testing to decide which wheel size to build their new models around. What would they have to gain by fudging the numbers? Giant, on the other hand, seems determined to simplify their lineup to a single wheel size and convince riders that it is in their best interest, when in fact the biggest benefactor of a standardized wheel size would be Giant.

  14. #214
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz View Post
    It appears that they simply took the 26" bike's performance in each category and made it the baseline (100%). Then ran the 650b and 29" through the same test and compared its performance to the 26". So in the technical downhill test, the 29er had an 8% performance gain over the 26" bike, while the 650b had a 2% performance gain.

    I don't know why the data would be "biased" when BMC was simply doing internal testing to decide which wheel size to build their new models around. What would they have to gain by fudging the numbers? Giant, on the other hand, seems determined to simplify their lineup to a single wheel size and convince riders that it is in their best interest, when in fact the biggest benefactor of a standardized wheel size would be Giant.
    Excellent points.
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    It still is a useless chart if the vertical axis is not clearly defined. How are they measuring performance? Just saying 8% better performance is not a quantify-able number. If it said 8% higher mph, or 8% improvement in lap time on a specific course then it would make sense.

    Not clearly defining it is the same thing as saying that this chart shows that the riders are 15% more style-ish when they ride this bike, or they are 8% less interesting because they ride that other bike.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    Not clearly defining it is the same thing as saying that this chart shows that the riders are 15% more style-ish when they ride this bike, or they are 8% less interesting because they ride that other bike.
    True, it would be nice to see exactly what they're measuring (speed or time?), but based on their description they were clearly assessing performance, not style or interesting-ness.

    Company engineers built test mules in 26in, 650b (27.5in) and 29in versions and trialled them back-to-back on the same course. “The 29er had the greatest performance gains over the other wheel sizes for the criteria we were looking at,” said Muller.

  17. #217
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    The vertical axis is apparently speed in percentage.

    http://enduro-mtb.com/wp-content/upl...51-780x544.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
    The vertical axis is apparently speed in percentage.

    http://enduro-mtb.com/wp-content/upl...51-780x544.png
    Aha! The inappropriately-cropped graphic gets you every time.

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    LOL!! Speed percentage, where the 26er is at 100%!! That is so much better. Without that bit of info it would of been useless. OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed. For racing that is great.

    I would still say that this chart is incomplete however. There is still nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails (singletrack), or anything relating to agility, etc. where precise handling is more important over speed. That is where 26er's would be better.

    When I am riding tight singletrack I am usually on the lower 3 or 4 gears (relatively slow speeds). Most of the trails here are not flow-y, with a ton of switchbacks, and are technically slow to navigate through difficult terrain features. I am very often accelerating from an almost standing start more often than not. A 26er is better for these kind of conditions.

    For more open (not as tight and twisty) trails and XC where you carry more momentum and speed, 29er's are the Kings of the trail. The chart also shows that at the best of ideal conditions, a 29er is only 8% faster than a 26er. Again, great for racing but that is not as super important for me. There are some 29er's that are also very good for tight singletrack, so for me that could possibly be the best of both worlds.

    650b just seem like such useless hunk of junk on this chart. Was this chart mainly aimed as a cheap shot at Giant's new 650b philosophy?
    Last edited by blundar; 08-14-2013 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed.

    The chart also shows that at the best of ideal conditions, a 29er is only 8% faster than a 26er. Again, great for racing but that is not as super important for me.
    29ers simply roll over stuff better than 26" and 27.5". You can't argue with that, and if roll over supremacy is not important to you, then smaller wheels are fine. Sure the wheels may be 100 grams heavier, the wheels "flexier", and maybe the frame 2% less stiff (yawn, according to Giant) but the additional weight is worth the reward for me in smile factor.

    8% is a significant number no matter how you slice it up. Speed is one factor, but fun is the other factor. Choose which size you enjoy the best for your terrain. For me, smaller is like going backwards in technology, but that's just me. Sometimes driving the old 1985 4 cylinder Nissan with power nothing and manual transmission is fun for a few days, but then I want my truck back that has all the bells and whistles. Whatever floats your boat!

  21. #221
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    29ers simply roll over stuff better than 26" and 27.5". You can't argue with that, and if roll over supremacy is not important to you, then smaller wheels are fine. Sure the wheels may be 100 grams heavier, the wheels "flexier", and maybe the frame 2% less stiff (yawn, according to Giant) but the additional weight is worth the reward for me in smile factor.

    8% is a significant number no matter how you slice it up. Speed is one factor, but fun is the other factor. Choose which size you enjoy the best for your terrain. For me, smaller is like going backwards in technology, but that's just me. Sometimes driving the old 1985 4 cylinder Nissan with power nothing and manual transmission is fun for a few days, but then I want my truck back that has all the bells and whistles. Whatever floats your boat!
    Absolutely. But wheel size is not "technology", just a personal choice in bike handling and performance. I am fortunate in owning at least one bike in all three sizes. That way I can be moody but always able to scratch whatever the itch of the day is.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    [...]I am fortunate in owning at least one bike in all three sizes. That way I can be moody but always able to scratch whatever the itch of the day is.
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there and Tallboy is just one of them. Just like 26ers and 27,5ers the 29ers all handle differently. Just compare 2001 GF prototype with 2014 Specialized Enduro 29.
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Kool-aid, nom nom



    Did you buy that demo 6 fiddy I saw you on?

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.
    Why don't YOU? We've never seen a hint of evidence that you've ridden any bike, even the RIP in your avatar. Nor any of the bikes you constantly recommend, regardless of whether they exist.

  25. #225
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there and Tallboy is just one of them. Just like 26ers and 27,5ers the 29ers all handle differently. Just compare 2001 GF prototype with 2014 Specialized Enduro 29.
    Find a Specialized concept store and take Enduro 29 for a very long spin like two weeks etc. and report back.
    The TB, as you know or should, is for XC terrain, which is where I use it and where it excels.

    When I get a longer travel bike, I will try to demo as many as I can. That will be a year down the line, so I hope and expect I can demo an Enduro 29 and Enduro 27.5" back to back. If Spesh continues to be a jackass, I will demo Treks and Santa Cruz (or whoever else has 140mm or 150mm suspension in both sizes) instead. Will pick whichever feels best
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmb2erl3dn View Post
    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.
    And your point is? I came here looking for opinions and it has clearly sparked a good debate. If you don't like that then you can leave.

  27. #227
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    LOL!! Speed percentage, where the 26er is at 100%!! That is so much better. Without that bit of info it would of been useless. OK, So this is only a measure of pure speed. For racing that is great.

    I would still say that this chart is incomplete however. There is still nothing on there representing tight twisty technical trails (singletrack), or anything relating to agility, etc. where precise handling is more important over speed. That is where 26er's would be better.

    When I am riding tight singletrack I am usually on the lower 3 or 4 gears (relatively slow speeds). Most of the trails here are not flow-y, with a ton of switchbacks, and are technically slow to navigate through difficult terrain features. I am very often accelerating from an almost standing start more often than not. A 26er is better for these kind of conditions.
    The "rough climbing" category seems to fit what you're saying pretty well (maneuverability, low speeds, acceleration, etc.), except for the conclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The "rough climbing" category seems to fit what you're saying pretty well (maneuverability, low speeds, acceleration, etc.), except for the conclusion.
    Like I said before "There are some 29er's that are also very good for tight singletrack, so for me that could possibly be the best of both worlds."

    I also subscribe to the Ride What You Have philosophy. I do agree that there will always be a better bike out there for the kind of riding that I do. I also think that the benefits of spending a ton of money on a new bike that is slightly better than what I already have is somewhat foolish. The most benefit for me is to ride more often, not spend more and more money. The engine is what needs the upgrade.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcteague View Post
    This is BMC's test results on the 3 wheel sizes. A bit of a different take than Giant.

    BMC Trail Fox 29 ? First Look - BikeRadar


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1376408169247-5jlmqybslcdl-670-70.png 
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    Tim
    Now make the same plot starting from 0 (instead of 92) to realize how negligible all this is.

    Not sure how they achieve results for "technical downhill". Personally, I hate how long travel 29r fit.

  30. #230
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    The differences between: (a) 26", (b) 27.5" and (c) 29"?

    Objectively: (a) Small, (b) Medium & ( (c) Large

    27.5" fanbois: (a) too small, (c) too large, & (b) just right

    27.5" haters: (a) light, stiff & nimble; (c) big, stable & rolls over everything & (c) not light, stiff & nimble, does not roll over everything, & WTF??

    Eyes of the beholder.
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    well I know I am going to sleep better tonight from having read this thread....
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    You haven't ridden all 29ers out there .
    You haven't ridden any bike out there.

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    Comments on wheel sizes

    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:


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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:
    Great vid. Here's an interesting point:

    "It (26" mountain bike wheel size) was chosen arbitrarily. There wasn't a great deal of experimentation."

    Which compliments my confusion over the vocal (and often hostile) defense of the 26" wheel size by a good-sized group of riders who seem to believe that 26" is and should always be the One True Wheel Size. When, in fact, there was no rational reason for it ever being so.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    When I get a longer travel bike, I will try to demo as many as I can. That will be a year down the line, so I hope and expect I can demo an Enduro 29 and Enduro 27.5" back to back.
    Just demo Enduro 29er without waiting for a smaller wheeled version. Even if 27.5 shows up it will be different, as 29er version would have to be beefed up to match the stiffnes of 27.5 or 26.

  36. #236
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    Bikes with a 29er wheel size do have better roll over, and carry better momentum. Depending on the geometry, they can also handle tight single and twisty single track and enduro duties well. This makes them superior in many ways for MTB.

    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.

    29ers also tend to be more expensive than 26ers. Again, the vast majority of the rest of the world's population do not have big enough budgets for purchasing a bike in the $2,000.00 range.

    This is why 26ers and 27.5ers will still sell better globally for MTB. Most bikes sold globally are actually for commuting, with MTB being a very small percentage overall.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    ...
    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.
    ...
    Where I live, all locally available brands were able to come up with 29er bikes with less than 29 inch of standover height, except for Specialized (my preferred brand). The irony here is Specialized seems to be the strongest proponent of 29" wheels, but they left out the guys who need less than 29 inch of standover height.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:
    Definitely a great vid. Lotta open questions, so consumers will have to wait and see how the market evolves. I still can't see ANY of the three being TOTALLY phased out in any case.

    So if I were to buy a new bike next season, I would feel safe going with whatever bike rode the best for me regardless of the wheel size. I can't foresee ever not being able to get forks, rims and tires in any size.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Definitely a great vid. Lotta open questions, so consumers will have to wait and see how the market evolves. I still can't see ANY of the three being TOTALLY phased out in any case.

    So if I were to buy a new bike next season, I would feel safe going with whatever bike rode the best for me regardless of the wheel size. I can't foresee ever not being able to get forks, rims and tires in any size.
    Ride and buy what you like best...I don't have a crystal ball, if I had to speculate it would sound like more companies would drop 26" significantly or completely. But there's probably still a strong market for them just not as large. Small companies have made a living off of being flexible and responding quickly to customer demand. If larger brands place less emphasis on 26" and enough customers still wan it, why wouldn't a smaller company make money off that need?

    To me if 3 wheels sizes go forward then it may benefit internet sellers, both bike cos an distributers as the tendency could be to cut costs elsewhere to make up for the highe cost of more varied inventory and design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    Where I live, all locally available brands were able to come up with 29er bikes with less than 29 inch of standover height, except for Specialized (my preferred brand). The irony here is Specialized seems to be the strongest proponent of 29" wheels, but they left out the guys who need less than 29 inch of standover height.
    A bikes fit while riding is of much more importance than stand over.
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    A bikes fit while riding is of much more importance than stand over.
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goran_injo View Post
    Well, they launched the tapered one out and it is a standard now everybody raves about. Similar to sloping geometries. Their opinions can be good ones.
    I believe that the tapered headtube/steerer credit actually goes to Ridley of Belgium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This video is old but still on-topic for this thread:

    Now watch the video from the 8:04 mark that I linked to... this guy got it right! MTB wheel size debate - 650b at Eurobike 2012 - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by blundar View Post
    Bikes with a 29er wheel size do have better roll over, and carry better momentum. Depending on the geometry, they can also handle tight single and twisty single track and enduro duties well. This makes them superior in many ways for MTB.

    However, 29ers very often more suitable for taller riders. Many 29ers have standovers of 30.5" for their size smalls, and I have seen some as low as 28". Even some XSmall sized 29ers are only as low as 27.6" standover. That is great for the typical American, German, British, and Norwegian male with average heights at around 6'0" tall. The vast majority of the rest of the world's population is much shorter than that.

    29ers also tend to be more expensive than 26ers. Again, the vast majority of the rest of the world's population do not have big enough budgets for purchasing a bike in the $2,000.00 range.

    This is why 26ers and 27.5ers will still sell better globally for MTB. Most bikes sold globally are actually for commuting, with MTB being a very small percentage overall.

    My wife is 5'4" and loves her 29er. I raced yesterday and saw plenty of short riders, including some kids blazing a trail on big wheel rigs.

    Look at SCs Julianna women's brand. Only the XS frames are offered on a 26" wheel. Everything else is 27.5 or 29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed? Lean to one side or the other. My 9 yr old grasp this concept.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed? Lean to one side or the other. My 9 yr old grasp this concept.
    Not me, but I refer to those who have legs too short for standover that is above 736mm. Some bike makers like Specialized neglected that consumer segment.

    Sorry, were not talking about motorcycles here. Have you been riding a bike with improperly adjusted seat height? Leaning to one side to get off the bike is not an ideal habit to develop, because there are situations when it's not safe to do so.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    Who the hell stops like that? I either lean into the hill and put out my uphill foot down or grab a tree, I've even stop and just lean my body on a tree or put my foot down on a log. In the last ten years I can't even remember standing flatfooted over any of my bikes, even the ones that had enough stand over.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    Not me, but I refer to those who have legs too short for standover that is above 736mm. Some bike makers like Specialized neglected that consumer segment.

    Sorry, were not talking about motorcycles here. Have you been riding a bike with improperly adjusted seat height? Leaning to one side to get off the bike is not an ideal habit to develop, because there are situations when it's not safe to do so.
    Exactly we are talking bikes not motorcycles and stand over has very little, almost nothing to do with fit.
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  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Why are you getting off the bike flat footed?
    Because on occasion it is an involuntary dismount cause by rider mistakes or unforeseen trail features. I very much like my balls being intact, thank you. Another possibility is that straddling your bike accidentally may very well cause you to fall of the side off a trail. And often it can be a long way down. Good standover is nice to have.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    This is one of the first issues with 29ers that was corrected years ago. BBs aren't really in a different place, so top-tubes slope more radically on 29ers and you get about the same stand-over. Different 29er frames use slightly different ways to achieve this, but this was addressed way back in the first few years of 29ers.

    This is like saying you can't ride DH bikes because they have more travel, higher front ends, higher BBs, and in the end, less stand-over height. On most DH bikes, they also correct for this with the frame design, although you can see some wacky stuff if you look at the first few years while companies were trying to figure out how to make them...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Won't happen.
    Defiantly wont happen...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This is one of the first issues with 29ers that was corrected years ago. BBs aren't really in a different place, so top-tubes slope more radically on 29ers and you get about the same stand-over. Different 29er frames use slightly different ways to achieve this, but this was addressed way back in the first few years of 29ers.
    As I previously mentioned in this thread, there are bike brands which already have 29er frames with good standover for the shorter-legged. I'm not saying it's generally a problem today. But it's an issue with my favorite brand (Specialized), particularly on the hardtail models.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This is like saying you can't ride DH bikes because they have more travel, higher front ends, higher BBs, and in the end, less stand-over height. On most DH bikes, they also correct for this with the frame design, although you can see some wacky stuff if you look at the first few years while companies were trying to figure out how to make them...
    High price is the main reason I won't get a DH bike. On the other hand, I can't find a 29er DH bike from Specialized, so I'm not sure about that.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    And it's OK for you to get hit by the toptube in the groin every time you stop your bike?
    Take your steerer stem junction off the bike then...and the saddle...you might hit your nuts on those too.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_beginner View Post
    High price is the main reason I won't get a DH bike. On the other hand, I can't find a 29er DH bike from Specialized, so I'm not sure about that.
    Sure you can, slap a Dorado (170mm travel) on a Enduro 29er, then you're set up with the most DH 29er out there.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  54. #254
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    Bit late to the thread, but my 2 cents.

    I've worked at a LBS before and as someone now in Marketing, know most of the ins and outs. I've been on 29" wheels since 2007, have tried 27.5" and found it a bit 'meh'.

    A lot of what's been mentioned here makes sense, and there's certainly almost fairly even mix of all the reasons that has gone into their decision to focus on 27.5.

    Strategy
    Marketing wise, it's a great strategy with some small (for Giant) risks. There's been plenty of hype around 'larger' wheels. There's also been open discussion about the downsides of larger wheels in comparison, and understandably, big change (pun intended) is hard for many people.

    They've now positioned themselves (much in the way Niner, Trek/Gary Fisher and Specialized did with 29ers) as the brand for 27.5. They've also played on the negatives of a 29er and 26" wheel to a tee, just watch their video with their Pro (credibility, respect) riders on YouTube. It plays on consumers' fears of either having a wheel that's too big or that their wheel size is too small. But it gives them hope that they can buy into 'the best of both worlds' with this new wheelsize. The positioning is so good that it even makes 29er fans take a look - we're all talking about it.

    Risk
    It's been mentioned here, Giant makes lots of bikes for many other large companies. If this fails, or maybe only drives 2-7 years of sales, it's worth it. They'll have owned the 27.5 market from the beginning and reap the rewards. If it doesn't work out, well, they already have old or existing designs of 26" and 29" bikes they can fall back on and they already own all the tooling and machinery to start producing them again fairly quickly.

    Timing
    There's just enough 27.5 gear available right now, being produced by the bike manufactures that allows for bulk purchasing and removes the fear that we all have, that we can't buy parts for our pride and joy - i.e. tyres.

    It's called the bike industry for a reason
    The wave for 29er market dominance has come and gone, bringing along with it folks like you and I. The trend of MTB that 'bigger wheels are better' is a message that is now engrained in the market and press. But there's still a whole bunch of people who can't test ride a 29er on their trails and are still skeptical - In marketing speak we call them the late majority. By pushing a new standard that's 'in-between' or 'close to what you have now, but better' you can easily convert this segment of the market. Once you've done that, they'll consider buying a new bike. Generally this segment is just as big as the early majority, so the industry itself stands to make just as much money in driving new bike purchases. In this sense, it's a potential growth market.

    The Future
    To put it simply, the market will decide. Some companies are now only doing 27.5 and 29 for 2014, some 29er only and some all 3. Once the sales numbers start rolling in, companies will adjust their range. I expect we'll have a majority of XC/Trail bikes in both 27.5 and 29; Enduro/AM dominated by 27.5 with some 29 and even less 26; and DH to still fight it out between 26/27.5.

    If sales slow or grow for a particular segment, companies will just modify next year's product line.

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    GM tried diesel passenger cars in the 80's and bombed. The rest of the world hung on. At the time GM was one of the largest auto manufacturers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spistols View Post
    GM tried diesel passenger cars in the 80's and bombed. The rest of the world hung on. At the time GM was one of the largest auto manufacturers.
    and unfortunately, that probably was one of the reasons Diesels arent popular in the USA... people caught a glimpse of GM's version of a diesel..

    But looking back, people just need to realize almost EVERYTHING GM did in the 80s bombed... the 80's Cimarron, Nova, Citation, Crossfire fuel injection, Firenza, Phoenix, Omega, Skylark...

    Even the things GM did correctly didnt catch on except for small niche markets.. (like 3.8L V6 turbos in Buick GNs)

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    and unfortunately, that probably was one of the reasons Diesels arent popular in the USA... people caught a glimpse of GM's version of a diesel..

    But looking back, people just need to realize almost EVERYTHING GM did in the 80s bombed... the 80's Cimarron, Nova, Citation, Crossfire fuel injection, Firenza, Phoenix, Omega, Skylark...

    Even the things GM did correctly didnt catch on except for small niche markets.. (like 3.8L V6 turbos in Buick GNs)
    This. They really didn't know wtf they were doing, the chassis and suspension were horrible. The 80s was when the japanese were attacking with all their engineering and production know-how. GM and the american automakers were lazy and deserved to get their rear ends kicked.
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    They really didn't know wtf they were doing....
    GM and the government (or are they one and the same now?) The government instituted an extra tax on diesel, figuring it would not be as politically unpopular as taxing gasoline, since diesel in this country at that time was used almost exclusively by businesses. So while clean and reliable diesel technology exists, it is less attractive here because of the tax. Diesel is inherently CHEAPER to produce.

    I would love to have one of those 80-mpg European Ford Focuses.
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisF View Post
    GM and the government (or are they one and the same now?) The government instituted an extra tax on diesel, figuring it would not be as politically unpopular as taxing gasoline, since diesel in this country at that time was used almost exclusively by businesses. So while clean and reliable diesel technology exists, it is less attractive here because of the tax. Diesel is inherently CHEAPER to produce.

    I would love to have one of those 80-mpg European Ford Focuses.
    Ford Focus diesel rated at 80 mpg--in the U.K. - Autoweek
    105 hp! Not a racecar, but heck, my minivan has only 140.
    You're looking at the wrong number when it comes to diesels, look at the torque not the HP.
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  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisF View Post
    GM and the government (or are they one and the same now?) The government instituted an extra tax on diesel, figuring it would not be as politically unpopular as taxing gasoline, since diesel in this country at that time was used almost exclusively by businesses. So while clean and reliable diesel technology exists, it is less attractive here because of the tax. Diesel is inherently CHEAPER to produce.

    I would love to have one of those 80-mpg European Ford Focuses.
    Ford Focus diesel rated at 80 mpg--in the U.K. - Autoweek
    105 hp! Not a racecar, but heck, my minivan has only 140.
    Well, rated at 80mpg because they used imperial gallons and it has a much smaller/less powerfull engine than an american equivalent (because for some reason in Europe they feel they don't have to maintain 85mph up through all the grades in the Alps like we do in the Rockies...go figure)- even when considering diesel engines which normally have less HP than their gas equivalents. As an example, the Chevy Cruze diesel to go on sale in the fall has 150hp, vs this 105hp focus. The car would get high 40s mpg according to the article if tested under the US standard.

    Diesel MUCH easier to produce? When refineries crack a barrel of crude they split it by carbon chains, how "heavy" it is. They generally heat the crude and catch the various weights of petroleum products in a tower, due to the heavier stuff being on the bottom and lighter stuff being on the top. A barrel of crude can be cracked into a certain fixed amount of gasoline, Jet fuel, diesel, bunker oil, etc. This means that there's a fixed market percentage and if you try to move outside of that percentage, something else will come back to regulate it, such as the price of gas/diesel. If for some reason we had thousands more diesel cars on the road, gasoline would become more inexpensive, because there'd be an excess. Diesel on the other hand runs our transportation systems for the most part, and jet fuel is closely related (although all the trucks moving trailers is what I'm talking about). It's not necessary lack of demand, it's because a barrel only gives up so much diesel.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Ya man I think the 29er will be around for a long time. It's wheel size vs man size makes it that much more comfortable for the rider (me) to even think of any other size. We let the media tell us what we should ride. I can ride any bike with any wheel size the same every time. Dave Weinmann still rides a 26' wheel and I'm sure he would do the same with 650b. Having a choice is good for most I stay what works as an amature..... Have fun!

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    I'm 100% with them. Asking if 29er's might be discontinued is like asking if APPLE will go bankrupt!
    They're the hottest items/products on/in the market.
    Well only way is if they have a 30" or 31" planned....

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    Great point!!

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    Thanks Jayem for setting me straight. 80mpg does sound too good to be true. But even in US gallons it still comes out to 65 or so. I just looked up the Cruise -- I'm pretty much a Ford man, but gtta say it looks good, especially since they are going to actually sell it here.

    TwoTone, HP is just torque times RPM. But I hear what you're saying. There are efficiencies to be had with an engine that doesn't need to be geared way down to get enough torque to make you go. But to go fast, you need HP, no way around it.

    Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

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    At 5'7" I am glad that I will have a nice 27.5 hard tail to ride. I have a 29er hard tail and the front end is so tall. I love my 26 hard tail but want a little more rollover. Voila, a 27.5. Quick handling better rollover. Love not war. Lets just ride. No hate or fear required. My son is almost six feet tall and loves his 26. Way faster than me. I still love him.

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    Santa Cruz Interview on 27.5

    This is a nice interview of Santa Cruz on making the Bronson and developing 27.5. At least for this company it starts replacing 26.


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    ^^That's a great video. It is interesting that with all the changes in the bike industry over the years, it's the wheel size issue that people get the most up in arms about. Granted it is a big shift in the bike business but I don't see any bike size if going to go away no matter how much Giant want's them to. I'm no expert but I was working a shop when the 29er got more popular in 2005ish. I saw a lot of riders (myself included) say they were stupid. Now I have a 29er and I really love it.

    Each wheel size will settle into its niche. 26 inch wheels will always appeal to gravity riders, dirt jumpers and shorter riders. It looks like 27.5 will begin to the me the standard in the enduro bike category and 29ers will dominate trail/XC and hardtail bikes. There will always be exceptions, but it's hard to deny that's where the industry is going.

    And the reality is that it is great for the bike biz. More wheel sizes means more people can find a bike for them so they can have more fun. Variety is good.

    It's a lot like the ski industry. Skis all used to be straight and long. Over the years skis became available in all sorts of shapes, widths, cambers, rocker profiles, etc. That variety makes skis and skiing soooooooo much more fun for more people. For bikes, more variety means the same thing.

    If you don't like 27.5s, 29er or 26ers don't buy one!

    Overall, Giant is not a company riders see at the forefront of the bike industry so I'd ignore their attempt to speak for the entire industry.
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    ^Yeah, regarding VTSession comment on Giant, I think Santa Cruz has a much more credible story on 27.5 after you watch this video. essentially, it's somewhat better than 26, at least for the Bronson and has some of the positive attributes of 29er. I appreciated that they didn't try to baffle with BS and hype, to me it makes Giant look pretty silly or desperate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    This is a nice interview of Santa Cruz on making the Bronson and developing 27.5. At least for this company it starts replacing 26.
    Santa Cruz Bronson: Bike Magazine's Exclusive "Blueprint" Story on the New 650b Bike - YouTube
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    I would think most companies would have difficulty predicting where any wheel size market is going to be in the future when there aren't solid numbers showing that one particular wheel size market is growing at or above a faster rate than another did, all things being equal; which they're not because manufacturers are still in the "infancy" of putting out forks, tires, etc... for 27.5" wheels.

    It would be absolutely amazing to see what today's comments would look like if 27.5" wheels had been supported by manufacturers before the 29" wheel.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by mevadus View Post
    It would be absolutely amazing to see what today's comments would look like if 27.5" wheels had been supported by manufacturers before the 29" wheel.
    If 27.5 was the original standard, quite possible nobody would have bothered with 29". Smaller change - while a notable drawback with smallest sizes and larger suspension.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by mevadus View Post
    I would think most companies would have difficulty predicting where any wheel size market is going to be in the future when there aren't solid numbers showing that one particular wheel size market is growing at or above a faster rate than another did, all things being equal; which they're not because manufacturers are still in the "infancy" of putting out forks, tires, etc... for 27.5" wheels.

    It would be absolutely amazing to see what today's comments would look like if 27.5" wheels had been supported by manufacturers before the 29" wheel.
    there's always uncertainty in trying to meet demand, but a couple things on this point from the video--the SantaCruz comment that 60% of their sales are 29er, and they getting a lot of customer feedback for 650b. A lot of other companies that sat on the sidelines and lost sales on 29er, e.g., Giant, apparently aren't going to wait for the customer demand to firm up this time. So they aren't going to let smaller companies like Santa Curz or Scott or others have the market uncontested. Personally, nothing I have read on 650b intrigues me, but I felt the same about29er until I rode one. I know for certain I won't buy another 26er, but whether I buy a 650b, I don't know...I'll test them. but I am sold on 29er so 650b will have to be amazing, maybe it is...

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    If 27.5 was the original standard, quite possible nobody would have bothered with 29". Smaller change - while a notable drawback with smallest sizes and larger suspension.
    This is an interesting hypothetical and I'm pretty sure I agree with this statement, though I'm not sure I understand what the last sentence means.
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    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    lol, 27.5 and 29 both appeared "on the scene" at about the same time with the same initial following. It also quickly progressed into 69 and 96ers too, although that died out pretty fast, heck I think we even had separate forums for something like that too. I think the reason we're revisiting it and it's becoming standing is because 29ers really are that good. Since they really are that good, there needs to be an option to 29ers that are "less sucky", so enter 27.5, the wheel size that will be offered in parallel with many 29er options, replacing 26.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  75. #275
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    The public (not me!) want short rear centres on 29'ers. Giant can't make a Maestro 29" rear centre shorter than 450mm so they couldn't compete with Specialized etc on long travel 29". One of the reasons they remarketed themselves on wheelsize.

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    I was in a BS (not my LBS) today... The crew was joking about the 650b premium. I asked for an example... Bronson alloy is $1000 more than its 26" cousin.

    Off topic but semi relevant

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I was in a BS (not my LBS) today... The crew was joking about the 650b premium. I asked for an example... Bronson alloy is $1000 more than its 26" cousin.

    Off topic but semi relevant
    I just fact checked that on the website. Wrong.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    27.5 vs 29

    I have watched the forum attendance for the last two months. Generally the 29 forum has maintained a 4 to 1 ratio over the 27.5 group. With all the PR/marketing focus on 650B I would have expected some slippage... Hasn't happened.

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    In reply to Jayem:

    I saw it personally today.

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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    27.5 vs 29

    I have watched the forum attendance for the last two months. Generally the 29 forum has maintained a 4 to 1 ratio over the 27.5 group. With all the PR/marketing focus on 650B I would have expected some slippage... Hasn't happened.
    29er crowd did not get the memo...

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    29er crowd is as stoked as ever... 27.5 crowd is not experiencing the same vibe despite 26 converts and increased marketing budgets. My only point is if marketing or equipment were revolutionary the forum volume ratio and total volume would change. That has not happened

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    29er crowd is as stoked as ever...
    What theyre most vibed about is that all the Noobs can go straight to the 650b section and start 10 posts a day to ask what bike to get instead of the 29er forum.
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  83. #283
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    Malware alert on this page!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    Malware alert on this page!!!!
    Kast33erdf?

    Yea, i just looked at all of his 9 forums posts all occurring within the past 5 hours and they all contain those certain picture links in every single of his threads
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  85. #285
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    Probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    In reply to Jayem:

    I saw it personally today.
    If the Nomad Alloy is the bike that you are considering equivalent to the Bronson Alloy, then according to the SC site, the Bronson is about $50 more than the Nomad with the same build. Either the bike shop wasn't comparing alloy to alloy or build to build, the 26" bike was on sale, or they trying to rip people off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandSpur View Post
    Kast33erdf?

    Yea, i just looked at all of his 9 forums posts all occurring within the past 5 hours and they all contain those certain picture links in every single of his threads
    So, that is where the malware alert is coming from.
    What works for me may not work for you. What's best for you depends on many factors. We are different from each other.

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    If the Nomad Alloy is the bike that you are considering equivalent to the Bronson Alloy, then according to the SC site, the Bronson is about $50 more than the Nomad with the same build. Either the bike shop wasn't comparing alloy to alloy or build to build, the 26" bike was on sale, or they trying to rip people off.
    Yep, isolated to his bike shop, not SCs pricing.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    Wow, so insightful

    But seriously, a little explanation would be nice
    Rigid bikes/Hardtails and short travel FS bikes will remain as 29ers with the split occurring at about 120mm of travel. 27.5 will take over in the medium to long travel FS markets, and 26 inch wheels will disappear except on bikes designed for short people.
    I am not repeating myself I am not repeating myself!

  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    I read this in another thread and am wondering what you guys think.

    Anyways here's what Giant is saying about wheel sizes
    "Can we expect to see 29 and 26-inch wheels eventually disappear in Giant's consumer-priced bikes in the near future?

    · 26-inch for sure, but 29-inch will be dependent on market feedback. That said, if the market progresses the way we believe it will, 29-inch will be phased out in approximately two years....again, totally dependent on market feedback."

    Taken from - 650B For Giant's 2014 Elite-Level Mountain Bikes - Pinkbike

    As someone who has been looking into 29ers for my next XC race bike this is a bit troublesome. I know they're just talking about the Giant line but I would guess that other bike makers have the same thought process.
    Whomever wrote that is trying to be provocative. 29ers aren't going anywhere. For a rigid/hard tail/short travel (up to 120mm)FS bike they're still the way to go. If you're looking for an XC race bike I'd suggest 29er.
    I am not repeating myself I am not repeating myself!

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Sugar View Post
    Rigid bikes/Hardtails and short travel FS bikes will remain as 29ers with the split occurring at about 120mm of travel. 27.5 will take over in the medium to long travel FS markets, and 26 inch wheels will disappear except on bikes designed for short people.
    Industry guys I know who have spent time on various bikes say the Enduro 29" and BMC TF01 totally destroy any 150/160mm 650b bike so you might want to rethink that split.

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  93. #293
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    Is this really a video of someone riding a long pedaly doubletrack/fire road for 8 minutes?

    I officially hate GoPro now.

    -Walt

  94. #294
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    What is the point of even posting that video?

  95. #295
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    Man, I ride chunkier than that on my road bike.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Is this really a video of someone riding a long pedaly doubletrack/fire road for 8 minutes?

    I officially hate GoPro now.

    -Walt
    It is... I thought the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  97. #297
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    If it's some kind of subtle/clever comment about 29ers, I guess it makes sense. 29ers only good for really boring looking fire roads, maybe? Whoever filmed themselves (and then clogged some energy-hog server farm with the data) should never again be allowed to use any form of camera or the internet.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    If the Nomad Alloy is the bike that you are considering equivalent to the Bronson Alloy, then according to the SC site, the Bronson is about $50 more than the Nomad with the same build. Either the bike shop wasn't comparing alloy to alloy or build to build, the 26" bike was on sale, or they trying to rip people off.
    Bike shop is reputable. Probably set up specific. Let me dig in and get back to you.

    It did have the new XX0 drivetrain so maybe that caused some confusion.

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    The public (not me!) want short rear centres on 29'ers. Giant can't make a Maestro 29" rear centre shorter than 450mm so they couldn't compete with Specialized etc on long travel 29". One of the reasons they remarketed themselves on wheelsize.
    BTW, I'd say we just want NORMAL centre 29ers. The bike are already more stable because, well, they are 29ers. They don't need to be more more stable IMO.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Bike shop is reputable. Probably set up specific. Let me dig in and get back to you.

    It did have the new XX0 drivetrain so maybe that caused some confusion.
    Sooo, different specs? Different years?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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