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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    ... thinks he has the qualifications to diss Lennard Zinn who is not here to defend himself.
    I am qualified to "diss" Lennard Zinn and who says he isn't here to defend himself? You are such a whiner, dwt.

    I can't help it if you're too uneducated to know who to trust (or what to ride).

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by HSracer View Post
    It seems to me they might be taking a Niner approach. The whole "this is the best wheelsize and the only one worth making" deal.
    I see these two decisions as totally different. Giant is a large company. They can probably realize an economy of scale by manufacturing bikes with just one wheel size -- possibly lower engineering costs, but certainly lower manufacturing costs if everything is focused on one wheel size.

    Niner came out when 29ers were still somewhat of a new concept. For them, this is, in part, a marketing decision to differentiate them from Specialized, Trek, etc. that need to be all things to all people. Niner can save money on engineering by doing all their failure analysis and the like on one wheel size rather than 3. They don't have the large manufacturing presence that Giant has, so they won't realize the potential $$ savings that Giant can with just one wheel size.

    I can see certain styles of bikes going to certain wheel sizes. I think that is what we will see with Spec and Trek and the like -- say, DH bikes in 26, all mountain FS in 27.5, and XC hardtails all 29ers. Or all Small/Medium frames in 27.5 and all Large/XL frames in 29.

  3. #378
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I am qualified to "diss" Lennard Zinn and who says he isn't here to defend himself? You are such a whiner, dwt.

    I can't help it if you're too uneducated to know who to trust (or what to ride).
    Well I have zero engineering background and admit it. But have learned infinitely more about bikes from Lennard Zinn than Craig "Dr. Science" SJ.

    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn? Don't deflect the question with ad hominen criticism of the questioner, eh?

    No one is right all the time. Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct. But that certainly doesn't call into question the rest of his contributions to physics
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  4. #379
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn? Don't deflect the question with ad hominen criticism of the questioner, eh?

    No one is right all the time. Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct. But that certainly doesn't call into question the rest of his contributions to physics
    I don't think you need qualifications to point out admitted dishonesty. The facts (in his own words, no less) speak for themselves.
    Zinn admitted that his proportional crank length theory was bogus, yet he is still (as in right now on his website) selling custom cranks based on the debunked idea of proportional crank length. WTF?!?
    Not being right all the time is one thing. Intentionally misleading people for monetary gain is something completely different. It is dishonest, manipulative, and avaricious, and it is hard for me to respect someone like that.
    How do you differentiate when he is offering good information from when he is selling some crap he cooked up?
    Misinformation is worse than no information at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Well I have zero engineering background and admit it. But have learned infinitely more about bikes from Lennard Zinn than Craig "Dr. Science" SJ.
    That's sad but explains a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    So what ARE your qualifications to diss Zinn?
    I have critical thinking skills, that's one qualification. Furthermore, I let others do the actually criticizing in my post so my qualifications here don't actually matter. Zinn himself offered as much criticism of his own work and motivations to be enough.

    Finally, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer, I'm just not fond of c*ck measuring contests and prefer to let the quality of my information speak for itself. I know these ideas are foreign to you, dwt. Your comment, "Zinn is up there with the best of the all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt." just shows how unqualified you are. Learn or don't learn, but the joy you take in your own ignorance does not obligate others to remain uninformed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics where Bohr and Heisenberg were correct.
    Careful, you are out of your league here. You make the same mistake you always do, you assume that what the majority believes establishes fact. Einstein was outvoted on the undertainty principle, doesn't mean he was wrong.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    How do you differentiate when he is offering good information from when he is selling some crap he cooked up?
    Misinformation is worse than no information at all.
    Exactly, you cannot. Lennard Zinn is a liar for monetary gain. He should be ignored.

  7. #382
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    That's sad but explains a lot.


    I have critical thinking skills, that's one qualification. Furthermore, I let others do the actually criticizing in my post so my qualifications here don't actually matter. Zinn himself offered as much criticism of his own work and motivations to be enough.

    Finally, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer, I'm just not fond of c*ck measuring contests and prefer to let the quality of my information speak for itself. I know these ideas are foreign to you, dwt. Your comment, "Zinn is up there with the best of the all time bike gurus, including Sheldon Brown & Jobst Brandt." just shows how unqualified you are. Learn or don't learn, but the joy you take in your own ignorance does not obligate others to remain uninformed.
    You really have to get over yourself.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    You really have to get over yourself.
    If you don't want the answer don't ask the question.

    Your foot-stomping temper tantrums won't get you your way here. You should have learned that by now. Stupid things said angrily are still stupid, in fact even more so.

  9. #384
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    If you don't want the answer don't ask the question.

    Your foot-stomping temper tantrums won't get you your way here. You should have learned that by now. Stupid things said angrily are still stupid, in fact even more so.
    Who's having a tantrum? Who's saying stupid things? Who is overly full of himself?

    Being a condescending obnoxious turd does not help you in your quest to become a respected MTBR pundit, or a pundit anywhere

    "Dear Velonews: enclosed please find my resume for review submitted to replace Lennard Zinn as technical writer for your publications. While I have not published any books on bicycle maintenance, do not have 50 years of experience, and am unknown outside of my family, I'm a degreed and practicing engineer. As a respected pundit on MTBR mountain bike forums, where I am known as "Dr. Science", I regularly school unwashed idiots who know squat, and I have countless green chicklets. Lennard Zinn can't say that. Indeed, despite his vast experience and world wide reputation as an expert in the field of bicycle mechanics, Mr. Zinn is in fact a fraud and an idiot who has said wrong things on numerous occasions. If I were replace him, you can rest assured that no technical misinformation would ever be published again by Velonews. I'm always right and I never lie.

    Very truly yours,

    craigsj"
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  10. #385
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    Nice continued discussion of crank arm length here:

    Crank Length: Coming Full Circle

    McDaniel elaborates:

    “During one particular study, Martin and I recorded athletes’ oxygen consumption while cycling on a stationary bike in the lab. We used crank lengths of 145, 170 and 195 mm; pedaling rates of 40, 60, 80 and 100 rpm’s; and intensity levels of 30, 60 and 90% of lactate threshold.

    “We found that the power produced (i.e. force applied to move the pedals) during exertion accounted for 95% of oxygen consumption (V02). Changes in crank length and pedal rate had the capacity to alter oxygen consumption or efficiency by about 3%."


    Cobb mentioned working with a rider that was 6'5" and they got the efficiency desired using 165mm cranks (and 65 watts increase in power). I wonder if Cobb, McDaniel, or Martin worked with any cycling athletes that were in the 6'8" - 7' realm? If so, it would be interesting to see the crank length efficiency and results for that type of athlete compared to the one's they did work with for their respective studies. As well, it would be interesting to see the difference in demands for triathlete, TT, road cycling, mountain biking, cyclocross, SS'ing, etc... with regard to efficiency and whether or not certain types of cycling are more efficient with an adjustment in length or not.

    craigsj and meltingfeather are simply (and correctly) trying to remove any "Bro Science" from the equation. And rightly so. Having been found guilty of BroScience (or more aplty BS) before by craigsj and meltingfeather, I have learned much from both.

    I do, however, enjoy Zinn's take on the specific niche that he builds bikes for - the tall man and the travelling tall man's bike. The bikes at least include a much taller head tube. In terms of providing a service, it is a good thing that he provides cycles to guys who cannot normally buy off the shelf rigs due to the demographics of cyclists over 6'4" precluding major companies from producing super HUGE frames to such a small percentage of customers. Ditto to Grant Rivendell (and others) who can build a super huge frame for really tall drinks of water that equal such a small percentage of the population.

    I saw two Zinn custom road bikes on RAGBRAI last week - both a father and a son who were 6'8" and 6'9" respectively. I didn't even look at their cranks, but was fascinated with the length of the head tubes and top tubes compared to my size XXXL Specialized Roubaix (has stock 175mm cranks).

    I did look at the Zinn insprired KHS Flyte 747 last year when buying a new road bike, but I wanted to avoid the 200mm cranks that it was designed to come stock with due to the crank arm length debate/research - and the bike was purpose built to handle a much heavier rider than I am and felt it would be all a bit on the overkill side (especially now that I weigh 165).

    One of my favorite blogs for the tall man tells the story of living life in a world designed for shorter people. This guy adapts many things (including his bikes) to fit. Might be some BroScience in there with regard to his quest for bike stuff (he talks about Zinn and longer custom cranks) that fits and works for him, but I especially enjoy how he made his snow shovel and rake "fit". And the way he does dishes at a kitchen sink designed for the median height person is hillarious.

    Tall Adaptations


  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    For XC oriented hard tails, I don't see 27.5/650b overtaking 29ers any time soon.

    As an XC racer, despite only being 5'6", I prefer the rolling speed and lateral grip of 29ers over the smaller wheel sizes. I imagine many others do, too.
    What do you ride? What is your inseam?
    Every 29er I have tried so far has -2" to -3" of standover clearance.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    What do you ride? What is your inseam?
    Every 29er I have tried so far has -2" to -3" of standover clearance.
    Chinese carbon hardtail; IP-057. 30" cycling inseam. Although that might be changing next year, depending how the season turns out, and who I ride for.

    Very pleased with the frame. Well built, light, not displeasing to the eye.

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    ...does not help you in your quest to become a respected MTBR pundit
    I have no such quest, recognition from MTBR means nothing. I have no interest in being lead cheerleader for any MTBR clique either, I'll leave that to you.

  14. #389
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    I'm 6' 3" with a 35" inseam. Ten years ago, my first MTB was "26er", a Giant Yukon SE. Last year, I upgraded to a Giant Talon 29er, which fit better but that bike wasn't enjoyable so, this year, I upgraded to a Salsa El Mar (and just bought a Salsa Fargo). To me, the Salsa's fit far better and are a more enjoyable ride than a 26er, or any Giant.

    Of course, I've become a true Salsa disciple so I have zero interest in what Giant is or is not producing (or Trek/Specialized/Cannondale for that matter).

  15. #390
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    One year... hasn't happened.
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    Just a quick look at all the new bikes. What is the ratio of the new 27.5 to 29" released in last 12months?
    I would guess 5 to 1?
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29". It is easier to fit an average height guy or a woman on a 27.5 frame.
    So yeas, I believe 27.5 will start outselling 29" in a near future.

  16. #391
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    Just a quick look at all the new bikes. What is the ratio of the new 27.5 to 29" released in last 12months?
    I would guess 5 to 1?
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29". It is easier to fit an average height guy or a woman on a 27.5 frame.
    So yeas, I believe 27.5 will start outselling 29" in a near future.
    Unfortunately, models released doesn't equal more sales. Most of those are long travel models; most riders out there would be better suited to a 100-120mm 29er than a 140-160mm 27.5 bike.

    Why? Because the vast majority of trails, and riders, don't need that amount of travel.



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  17. #392
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Unfortunately, models released doesn't equal more sales. Most of those are long travel models; most riders out there would be better suited to a 100-120mm 29er than a 140-160mm 27.5 bike.

    Why? Because the vast majority of trails, and riders, don't need that amount of travel.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree, most riders don't need that much travel.
    I would argue about 5" travel 29" being a better choice than a 27.5". It varies from a rider to rider, different trails and continent.
    I ride in SoCal and while a 4-5" travel 29" might be ideal for 95% of the trails, I would still pick a 5" 27.5 for its more playful nature.
    If I was doing 5+ hours xc ride I would take my 4" 29er instead.
    29" might stay the most selling in the US. But I doubt it will be the case in Europe or Asia.
    Europe never bought into 29" as much as US did.
    Majority of Asian market would fit on a 650b better than on a 29".

  18. #393
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    I have multiple friends stationed in Europe. 29ers sell like hot cakes in Germany and Italy. Crushing the other two wheel sizes.


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  19. #394
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    Re: What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I have multiple friends stationed in Europe. 29ers sell like hot cakes in Germany and Italy. Crushing the other two wheel sizes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well, I am from Europe and spend there few weeks every year. I usually bring my bike with me. My info differs from yours. But anyway, until we see some official sales figures, all this is just a speculation.

  20. #395
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    Yes but we males must speculate about all things size related. It's undeniable human nature that can't be suppressed.

  21. #396
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by stevet43 View Post
    Yes but we males must speculate about all things size related. It's undeniable human nature that can't be suppressed.
    There's that. But many Euro riders are obsessive weight weenies when it comes to their bikes, and bigger always means heavier.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  22. #397
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    My money is still on 1-2 years.
    There's a bar I used to play at that had a neon sign: "Free Beer Tomorrow."
    Keep moving your target (now 2-3 years from your original projection) and you may be right someday... but that kind of misses the intent of a prediction, doesn't it?
    How about we count the years since 650b was first produced until it actually gains traction? Over a decade now? Or how about count the 650b frames and tires that have been discontinued for lack of sales?
    The marketeer's product replacement for the adapted kid's wheel that took too long to die is sort of a pathetic claim to fame, but whatever floats your boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    But anyway, until we see some official sales figures, all this is just a speculation.
    lol... sez the guy who was making predictions a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Also, stores like Walmart will most likely sell more 27.5 than 29".
    They would have to start carrying them first.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 08-05-2014 at 12:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  23. #398
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    There's that. But many Euro riders are obsessive weight weenies when it comes to their bikes, and bigger always means heavier.
    Why don't they ride 24" then?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  24. #399
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    Seems like 27.5 is the new 26....but why should you worry about the
    29er market? 29er will not disappear....but they will not dominate the market by 100% either.....in my view the times of one "standard" wheel - size im mountainbiking are over.....we will have the choice, which is an extremely good thing!

  25. #400
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    What's happening with the 29er market!? So confused

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Why don't they ride 24" then?
    Diminishing returns, obviously. Running would be lighter still, and totally unsuccessful

    Jerome Clementz wins Enduros on 26"
    Nico Vouilloz and Fabian Barel prefer 27.5"

    A few Euros on 29", but certainly not popular among them (I exclude Tracy Mosely)
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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