Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 66
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    105

    What 29er FS bikes don't require Pro Pedal or the Brain?

    I have a 2011 Spec Stumpjumper FSR 29er...130mm bike. I like it quite a bit. Compared to my Maverick ML8, at under 29 pounds it feels light, agile and fast. However, I don't think I would like it on the climbs at all if it weren't for the Pro Pedal Fox Triad rear shock.

    So my question is, as I think about the current bikes and 2012 offerings, are there any designs that stand on their own and don't need Pro Pedal to really shine? There are a lot of bikes I haven't been able to demo so thought I would put it out there. I've heard people argue that the (pro pedal) shocks make up for poor suspension frame design. To complicate it, I'm one of those riders who prefers it plush so that probably doesn't help.

    In which directions would you steer me? Thank you.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    196
    One bike that comes to mind is the Yeti SB-95, now I know the 29er version hasn't been tested yet but from what I have heard about the 66 it would fit your bill. One of the very first reviews I read on the SB-66 said that the rear shock was completely blown and faulty but still pedaled incredibly. So if you can wait a little bit then I would definitely give the Yeti a spin.

  3. #3
    NedwannaB
    Reputation: JMac47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    9,842

    Salsa Spearfish

    That's what they told me anyway. Haven't built mine to find out yet though
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  4. #4
    I don't huck.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    2,548
    I think you will find that whether or not a particular bike or design does or does not need pro pedal is pretty individual. I have ridden bikes that others swore did not need PP and I thought it did and vice versa. Now some bikes always do if you want them to remain steady when pedaling like the older single pivot stuff...my Lenz or an FSR design comes to mind.

    But, if you like plush or active stuff, the VPP designs sure are that. I find them a bit too active for my taste but if you like it that way, they run well without PP, like the Tall Boy or Intense stuff.

    My fav so far as an all around XC light-med trail sus has been the JET9 with the CVA. It was juuuust a bit more active on small bumps than the Mini Brain on the Epic but tighter than the Tall Boy. Next up was the Anthem X. I did not use PP on either the JET or the Anthem. I did on the Tall Boy.

    The FSR I have with the mini-brain tuned softer than the Epic version is truly good. You may label it a band-aid or not, but it rocks.
    Blog Ramblings
    West Coast writer for twentynineinches.com

  5. #5
    jms
    jms is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,712

    Pivot.

    Pivot.
    My Favorite Peeps:

  6. #6
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy View Post
    I think you will find that whether or not a particular bike or design does or does not need pro pedal is pretty individual. I have ridden bikes that others swore did not need PP and I thought it did and vice versa. Now some bikes always do if you want them to remain steady when pedaling like the older single pivot stuff...my Lenz or an FSR design comes to mind.

    But, if you like plush or active stuff, the VPP designs sure are that. I find them a bit too active for my taste but if you like it that way, they run well without PP, like the Tall Boy or Intense stuff.

    My fav so far as an all around XC light-med trail sus has been the JET9 with the CVA. It was juuuust a bit more active on small bumps than the Mini Brain on the Epic but tighter than the Tall Boy. Next up was the Anthem X. I did not use PP on either the JET or the Anthem. I did on the Tall Boy.

    The FSR I have with the mini-brain tuned softer than the Epic version is truly good. You may label it a band-aid or not, but it rocks.
    I agree it is a very individual call.

    My preferences are nearly the opposite of yours.

    I do not like using PP at all. Like the way the Salsa Big Mama pedaled on climbs, even on pavement, with it off. I do not use it on HL bikes. Felt no need for it on short multi-link bikes, though some of those were harsh or seemed to fight me. Only used PP on a long travel low single pivot.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  7. #7
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,210
    I run an '11 Stumpy FSR and have never switched the propedal on.

  8. #8
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,979
    I found my DW-Link bike of old (Iron Horse) that didn't have a pro-pedal shock on it and rode quite well...don't know if this translates to the Pivot, Turner, or new Ibis.

    I have the Stumpy FSR too and it does need the Pro-Pedal on the climbs...but it is also much more plush on descents than I remember the DW-Link bike being.

  9. #9
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by vetprowanab View Post
    I have a 2011 Spec Stumpjumper FSR 29er...130mm bike. I like it quite a bit. Compared to my Maverick ML8, at under 29 pounds it feels light, agile and fast. However, I don't think I would like it on the climbs at all if it weren't for the Pro Pedal Fox Triad rear shock.

    So my question is, as I think about the current bikes and 2012 offerings, are there any designs that stand on their own and don't need Pro Pedal to really shine? There are a lot of bikes I haven't been able to demo so thought I would put it out there. I've heard people argue that the (pro pedal) shocks make up for poor suspension frame design. To complicate it, I'm one of those riders who prefers it plush so that probably doesn't help.

    In which directions would you steer me? Thank you.
    Turn off the PP and see how you like your FSR.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Addy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    117
    Took a Niner Jet9 on a demo ride. The mechanic/tech said that I would not need to use the pro-pedal setting on climbs, that it would be plenty stiff and still be plush when needed. He was right and I was impressed enough to place an order for one. The RIP9 is supposed to behave the same way if you are looking for a bike with slacker geometry and more suspension travel. But I'd test ride if at all possible...

  11. #11
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Addy View Post
    Took a Niner Jet9 on a demo ride. The mechanic/tech said that I would not need to use the pro-pedal setting on climbs, that it would be plenty stiff and still be plush when needed. He was right and I was impressed enough to place an order for one. The RIP9 is supposed to behave the same way if you are looking for a bike with slacker geometry and more suspension travel. But I'd test ride if at all possible...
    The suspension feel of the JET and RIP is different.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  12. #12
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,736

    How so

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    The suspension feel of the JET and RIP is different.
    I have owned both and the feel similar except one has more travel and the bike is slacker.

  13. #13
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    I

    I have owned both and the feel similar except one has more travel and the bike is slacker.
    Within the context of the OP's question, not much different while climbing.

    They react differently to pedaling while the suspension cycles in other situations.

    Again, it depends on your riding style and preferences.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  14. #14
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,702

    Heh...

    Quote Originally Posted by vetprowanab View Post
    I have a 2011 Spec Stumpjumper FSR 29er...130mm bike. I like it quite a bit. Compared to my Maverick ML8, at under 29 pounds it feels light, agile and fast. However, I don't think I would like it on the climbs at all if it weren't for the Pro Pedal Fox Triad rear shock.

    So my question is, as I think about the current bikes and 2012 offerings, are there any designs that stand on their own and don't need Pro Pedal to really shine? There are a lot of bikes I haven't been able to demo so thought I would put it out there. I've heard people argue that the (pro pedal) shocks make up for poor suspension frame design. To complicate it, I'm one of those riders who prefers it plush so that probably doesn't help.

    In which directions would you steer me? Thank you.
    I gave up on the idea of full suspension bikes that pedal well.

    All of the bikes out there I have tried that you can stand on and not bob generally feel like crap, IMO. I would rather have a bike that feels good even if it bobs like crazy, and use it with a manual lockout lever on the shock to control the bob.

    I ride a Titus RacerX29er. I love FSR true 4-Bar suspension. I have an RP23 shock on there with ProPedal, but I leave the ProPedal on the hardest setting (pretty much locked out), and leave the ProPedal off most of the time... unless I'm grinding up a fireroad out of the saddle. That bike I ride pretty much as my long ride trailbike.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    204
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I agree it is a very individual call.

    My preferences are nearly the opposite of yours.

    I do not like using PP at all. Like the way the Salsa Big Mama pedaled on climbs, even on pavement, with it off. I do not use it on HL bikes. Felt no need for it on short multi-link bikes, though some of those were harsh or seemed to fight me. Only used PP on a long travel low single pivot.
    I don't like using propedal on any of the FSR/HL bikes I've owned either.

    However, as far as the 2010/11 Stumpjumper FSR 29er goes, I would be interested to know what size frame those of you that are using propedal are riding for the following reason:

    I have a medium frame bike and I don't use propedal at all as I've never felt the need for it. My Dad has an identical bike but with a large frame. He has to use propedal as his bike bobs when climbing. We've swapped bikes and adjusted the suspension to suit, and we've found that regardless of who's riding it, the large bike bobs enough to want to use propedal on long climbs, and the medium does not. We haven't tried swapping the shocks over though, but both seem to work fine.

    I'm not sure why this is happening and I know it sounds crazy, and if I hadn't seen the difference in the bikes I wouldn't believe it-but could it be something to do with where the rider is on the large frame? In any case, they're both great bikes-but I'd be interested to know if anyone else has noticed this effect.

  16. #16
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,514
    One thing that needs to be clarified. Most shocks come with different amounts of platform along with their 'PP' settings. As far as Fox Shox goes, that is called the Boost Valve setting or IFP pressure. The IFP pressure or internal floating piston pressure (although working in unison with the PP spring) is factory set according to the amount of anti-squat for each suspension design. So, if you have a low pivot design (read less anti-squat) like the Specialized (which because of its high, short Horst link is almost identical to a single pivot), Lenz, Gary Fisher, or Ventana they will more likely be fitted with a shock with more platform or IFP pressure - a higher Boost Valve setting on a Fox. If you have a bike design with more anti-squat like Pivot or Turner (Ibis has less - notice that their pivots are lower than the other two) they can get by with less IFP pressure. My 2009 Sultan has the lowest IFP pressure Fox allows which is 175psi. My Tallboy has 225 psi which is a middle setting. The Sultan is very stable and doesn't wallow with PP off even though it has a lower IFP pressure because it has more anti-squat. Ibis is saying that the Ripley will have more anti-squat than the Mojos. Also, not sure how much truth there is to erikrc10's statement about the SB 95, but that may be a forth choice. Not sure if I am missing any.
    Keep in mind that the IFP or Boost Valve setting is there whether you have PP on or off and the higher it is, the more platform you have independent of whether you have PP on or off.

    Edit: found a website that describes the Fox internal.
    DHX Air Tech
    Last edited by yogiprophet; 09-05-2011 at 06:41 PM.

  17. #17
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,514
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I gave up on the idea of full suspension bikes that pedal well.

    All of the bikes out there I have tried that you can stand on and not bob generally feel like crap, IMO. I would rather have a bike that feels good even if it bobs like crazy, and use it with a manual lockout lever on the shock to control the bob.

    I ride a Titus RacerX29er. I love FSR true 4-Bar suspension. I have an RP23 shock on there with ProPedal, but I leave the ProPedal on the hardest setting (pretty much locked out), and leave the ProPedal off most of the time... unless I'm grinding up a fireroad out of the saddle. That bike I ride pretty much as my long ride trailbike.
    There is no FS bike that will not bob when out of the saddle. Like you said if it didn't bob, the shock would have to be near locked out and then it wouldn't ride well at all when seated. That is why I like to have a shock with a strong 'ProPedal' - so that I can put it on when I climb or accelerate out of the saddle without wasting too much energy. Otherwise, like you, I always keep mine off.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: skiahh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,572
    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Pivot.
    Yep.

    I went from a Stumpy FSR Expert (Brain equipped) to the 429 and the Pivot climbs every bit as good as the Brain equipped SJ. Better, for me, in fact... the 429 gets me up hills I didn't think I could climb and that I'd be struggling with on the SJ.

    And that's all without ever switching over to PP.

    Oh, and it's pretty plush for a 4" bike, too!

  19. #19
    Carbon & Ti rule
    Reputation: muzzanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    5,397
    Jet9 & Jet9 RDO pedal well with PP off.

    The Anthem X29 does to.
    Raising money, my friend broke his neck Mtbing, Please Share link. http://givealittle.co.nz/cause/elliottkeys/donations

  20. #20
    MTB B'dos
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    20,355
    Pro Pedal is NEVER off, once the shock has it it's always there, the On/Off is just engaging more PP. If you want no pro pedal you need a shock without it or to blow the seals on the PP and have the oil leak out and then you will really find out just how much difference the PP makes, even when the lever is flipped "Off". FYI Niner and others generally use a very high PP tune.

    I now have a blown RP23 that I don't plan on fixing, that I can throw on any frame to determine just how well the suspension really pedals and believe me, it would surprise the hell out of you doing this to all those "pedal well" frames.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy View Post
    I think you will find that whether or not a particular bike or design does or does not need pro pedal is pretty individual. I have ridden bikes that others swore did not need PP and I thought it did and vice versa. Now some bikes always do if you want them to remain steady when pedaling like the older single pivot stuff...my Lenz or an FSR design comes to mind.

    But, if you like plush or active stuff, the VPP designs sure are that. I find them a bit too active for my taste but if you like it that way, they run well without PP, like the Tall Boy or Intense stuff.

    My fav so far as an all around XC light-med trail sus has been the JET9 with the CVA. It was juuuust a bit more active on small bumps than the Mini Brain on the Epic but tighter than the Tall Boy. Next up was the Anthem X. I did not use PP on either the JET or the Anthem. I did on the Tall Boy.

    The FSR I have with the mini-brain tuned softer than the Epic version is truly good. You may label it a band-aid or not, but it rocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Jet9 & Jet9 RDO pedal well with PP off.

    The Anthem X29 does to.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
    MTB Barbados
    My Phantom pics

  21. #21
    mvi
    mvi is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,236
    No expert here, but I ride my Jet 9 with PP 1 on and ~ 10 mm sag in the shock and am so impressed with the feel of the bike in this lowest PP tuning. I never use any higher PP mode , only the open mode for real rooty-rocky XC stuff.

  22. #22
    Currently in Exile
    Reputation: Frozenspokes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,303
    VPP, DW link, and Giant's Anthem all use pedaling forces to counter suspension bob. Many single pivot designs place the pivot above the chain rings to achieve the same effect. The VPP and high single pivot designs as well as the Horst Link (FSR) all proceeded PP and "Brain" shocks and all pedal reasonably well without it as long as you stay seated. The trade-off being that you had to give up some plushness for pedaling efficiency.

    Modern suspension designs (even FSR, SP, & VPP) all benefit from the addition of platform valve shocks and the frame designers incorporate that technology into their designs. As noted by a previous poster, Fox adjusts the IFP setting per the frame manufacturers specs. They are designing these bikes with PP in mind to give us the best riding experience.

    In short, all suspension designs benefit from platform valve technology. Depending on the intended purpose of the bike and exact design, it may require more or less, but it still benefits.

    Why would I want to back to the compromises of the '90s if I don't have to?
    "There are those who would say there's something pathological about the need to ride, and they're probably on to something. I'd wager though that most of the society-approved compulsions leave deeper scars in the psyche than a need to go and ride a bicycle on a mountain." Cam McRea

  23. #23
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,514
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenspokes View Post
    VPP, DW link, and Giant's Anthem all use pedaling forces to counter suspension bob. Many single pivot designs place the pivot above the chain rings to achieve the same effect. The VPP and high single pivot designs as well as the Horst Link (FSR) all proceeded PP and "Brain" shocks and all pedal reasonably well without it as long as you stay seated. The trade-off being that you had to give up some plushness for pedaling efficiency.

    Modern suspension designs (even FSR, SP, & VPP) all benefit from the addition of platform valve shocks and the frame designers incorporate that technology into their designs. As noted by a previous poster, Fox adjusts the IFP setting per the frame manufacturers specs. They are designing these bikes with PP in mind to give us the best riding experience.

    In short, all suspension designs benefit from platform valve technology. Depending on the intended purpose of the bike and exact design, it may require more or less, but it still benefits.

    Why would I want to back to the compromises of the '90s if I don't have to?
    Contrary to what many think including some designers, and I know its counter intuitive but the front chainring and pivot location have almost nothing in common. It has more to do with the instantanious amout of chain growth at any one point in its travel. The amount of torque applied to the chain is directly proportional to the amount of torque applied by the rider's mass (how much the rider's mass is being thrown back or accelerated backwards with each pedal stroke). Bicycle suspension is a very dynamic system and cannot be looked at in an isolated situation like a chain pulling against a pivot would be on its own.

    I agree about what you said about PP. To try and design a suspension system without some platform would not be good. It would be way too harsh from the amount of pedal feedback. It is great that we now have platform shocks to give us some amount of control over acceleration induced sag.

  24. #24
    T , V , & K Rider
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,342
    I could live without it on my DW Sultan.....use it about 5 % of the time if that especially with the PUSHed RS RT3 rear shock ( best upgrade I've done on this bike ) ! TIG.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,447
    On my Pivot 429, I found that the bike pedaled worse w/ ProPedal on. For the life of me I don't even understand why the didn't just leave that function off the shock.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    83
    Hi all ! I have a 2011 fsr 29er and never touch the pp .

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bwalton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    631
    I have owned and or rented the following 26er FS rigs:

    1) 99 Stumpjumper (SJ) FSR equipped a Fox Float R with 80mm of travel.
    2) 04 SJ FSR with a Fox Triad and 100 mm of travel.
    3) 07 SJ FSR with a Fox Triad II and 120mm of travel.
    4) 08 Fisher HiFi with 120mm of travel and a Fox RP2
    5) 09 Specialized Epic with a Specialized mini-brain shock with 100mm of travel.

    And FS 29ers:

    09 and 10 Fisher HiFi 29er with a Fox RP3 and 100mm of travel.
    2011 Specialized Camber Elite 29er equipped with a Rock Shox Ario RL and 100mm of travel.

    I rode all of these bikes on the 20 mile course that I traversed during college. The 20 mile round trip consists of asphalt, smooth single track, rough and rocky single track with short steep climbs, short down hill runs and lots of lava cap with large loose rocks and a very steep gravel road with outcrops of lava cap and large patches of loose rocks. The gravel road portion is the grueling because it is very rough and very steep—about a 5 mile climb rewarded with a 5 mile decent. Finding a bike that can handle the smooth and very rough terrain while climbing well has been challenging. The 100mm 29er FS rigs all handled the course I ride on better than any of the 26ers listed above. I finally settled on the Camber 29er a few months ago and do not miss the inertia valve (coined the Brian) or the restricted compression circuit (coined Pro-pedal) shock platform what so ever. The Camber has very little pedal induced bob when the shock is set to open and zero bob when closed or locked-out. The terrain I ride over is so rough, that any hydraulic shock platform gets overwhelmed quickly even on slow climbs. Honestly, the Camber 29er pedals just as good up a steep incline as my Epic 26er does when seated. In fact I am less fatigued when I finish my course on the Camber than when riding my Epic. The Epic is bar far the best 26er I’ve every ridden but the Camber 29er is smoother and more comfortable on rough trails. Is the Epic faster? Yes because it has smaller wheels and tires, the bike frame and components are slightly lighter and the geometry stretches your torso out longer and positions it lower for slightly less aerodynamic drag. However I cannot quantify this “faster” opinion because it takes me a little over 1 ˝ hours to casually complete my course on either bike.

    In terms of platform vs. non-platform, I think it is useful on long traveled bikes and for rear suspensions that do not try to account for minimizing bob.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,027
    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    On my Pivot 429, I found that the bike pedaled worse w/ ProPedal on. For the life of me I don't even understand why the didn't just leave that function off the shock.
    Because if the bike was sold w/ a custom tuned Float R the consumer would feel short changed - they want the candied RP23.

  29. #29
    Ride 'Til Your Knees Hurt
    Reputation: cycljunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,980
    2010 Stumpy FSR Comp running a Reba RLT set at 130mm. On 50% of the climbs I leave PP off and find that the bike just performs...

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    267
    +1 for the Pivot Mach 429

    I haven't used my propedal in two years. It rides better without it.

  31. #31
    meow meow
    Reputation: b-kul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    I run an '11 Stumpy FSR and have never switched the propedal on.
    same, as long as you spin and dont try to hammer i think it works fine.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19
    Rocky Mountain Altitude 29er base model not spec'd with propedal. This forces me to sit through most climbs and keep the cadence up to complete climbs.

    I do miss the rigidity a PP would provide when giving my sit-bones a rest by pedaling out of the saddle.

  33. #33
    Beer Engineer
    Reputation: Old Kentucky Shark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    20
    I've demoed a pivot 29er and a giant anthem 29er that both were awesome in removing pedal bob. Ended up buying the anthem

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    894
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72 View Post
    I found my DW-Link bike of old (Iron Horse) that didn't have a pro-pedal shock on it and rode quite well...don't know if this translates to the Pivot, Turner, or new Ibis.

    I have the Stumpy FSR too and it does need the Pro-Pedal on the climbs...but it is also much more plush on descents than I remember the DW-Link bike being.
    plus one on the DW-Link design. While it's not a 29er, my Ibis Mojo SL rides great without a ProPedal shock. It excellerates very well for a 5 inch travel bike. I'm a spinner from hell though, so a masher may not have as much fun.

  35. #35
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    24,654
    1. The pro-pedal shocks that ive owned have been harsh. The feature is counter productive for me, on technical climbs they tend tend to buck and not absorb impacts like roots and rocks, significantly reducing traction. On smooth climbs I guess it can help a poor suspension design, but if the trails are that smooth id generally be using a lesser travel bike anyway.

    2. I own one now and have owned quite a few fsr bikes. The "activeness" of the suspension is nice, although they dont absorb square-edged impacts all that great. They do give a lot of traction uphill, but it's at the cost of "squat", meaning your pedaling forces keep the suspension compressed and it sucks a lot of energy. This is less in the granny gear, but it's still there and the difference overall between level efficiency and uphill is easily noticeable for me. This is why fsr bikes have "brains" and prop-pedal.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    180
    Demo'd a 429 - that thing was VERY efficient

    Demo'd an Anthem 29er - Not quite as efficient as the 429, but still did really well.

    Own an Altitude 29er - Probably the least "efficient" of the 3, but all around I liked this one the best. I ride with the PP off most of the time. The trails are pretty rocky and rough, so the active suspension helps more than it hurts. I have ridden with the PP on, but it doesn't make a huge difference.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by swinkey View Post
    +1 for the Pivot Mach 429
    +1 again. Either I can't tell the diff or it's not significant enough to matter, so I never reach for it. On my newer Ventana, whoa, mandatory PP on the climbs.

  38. #38
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,702

    Hmmm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Pro Pedal is NEVER off, once the shock has it it's always there, the On/Off is just engaging more PP. If you want no pro pedal you need a shock without it or to blow the seals on the PP and have the oil leak out and then you will really find out just how much difference the PP makes, even when the lever is flipped "Off". FYI Niner and others generally use a very high PP tune.

    I now have a blown RP23 that I don't plan on fixing, that I can throw on any frame to determine just how well the suspension really pedals and believe me, it would surprise the hell out of you doing this to all those "pedal well" frames.
    .... interesting.

    It might be worthwhile to try to find a Fox Float RL in my size and try that... if i can find a used one cheap enough at a swap meet, or something. Probably a good idea to keep a backup shock around anyway in case my RP23 needs service.

    I mean, yeah... I know all suspension frames bob. The best defense against bob is to pedal smoothly in the first place.

    The point I was making is that frames designed to use chain forces to counteract bob generally feel like crap to me. Specifically, when pedaling up slow rocky climbs when the pedals kick back when the rear wheel hits a rock step-up.

    I almost bought a Blur back in 2004 or so, but when I actually rode one on a trail, the pedal kick back issue just ruined it for me. I ended up with a used Stumpy FSR-XC and that was IMO spot on.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    225
    I can't even stand to ride most single pivots and 4-bar setups w/o some amount of platform damping, I really liked the way the Epic w/Brain rode but ended up with a Jet9. I sometimes flip on the pro-pedal for long pavement or smoother gravel climbs, otherwise it's off.

  40. #40
    psycho cyclo addict
    Reputation: edubfromktown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,255
    +1 for DW-Link. I ride an '09 Turner Sultan and do not use Propedal unless I am riding on pavement for many miles when the trails are too wet to ride on.
    Last edited by edubfromktown; 09-06-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  41. #41
    There's always next year.
    Reputation: padrefan1982's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    753
    Pivot 429 (again)... Only time I even think about flipping the lever is on long pavement rides.

  42. #42
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    On my Pivot 429, I found that the bike pedaled worse w/ ProPedal on. For the life of me I don't even understand why the didn't just leave that function off the shock.
    When buying low volumes of units it can cost more to have a function removed than to leave it i.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  43. #43
    Keep on Rockin...
    Reputation: Miker J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    4,264
    What I've found is that the more likely the design is to "bob" the nicer job it does when pedaling through the rough. The lower single pivot bikes I've owned, like my Lenz and longer travel Spec, were great when powering through choppy terrain - the harder I pedalled, the more plush the suspension became - basically the increased chain torque "pre-loads" the suspension I supose ("squat" I think they call it). If I get a trail bike that is how I want it. If I need PP I throw the lever (not the Spec "brain" - I purposely got the cheaper frame without the Brain).

    I have not owned any of the newer "multi-link" suspension designs but sounds like they would be similar to my old Blur classic. Seems like they use chain torque induced "anti-squat" to prevent bob. Based on reviews sounds like they may have attained a happy medium, but I still don't like the idea of anything that acts against suspension movement when pedaling through the rough.

    If I am not pedalling through the rough, then I can sit and spin, and eliminate bob that way - if we are talking about efficiency that's the way to go anyway, right?

    Speaking of efficiency, a few years back, I routinely tried to climb a brutal 1 mile section of very technical, steep trail. At the time I was on my 4" travel Lenz FS. Despite the obvious "bob" with in the open shock setting I routinely had far better success with the climb in that mode, as opposed to riding in PP mode.

    Do riders out there on longer travel VPP/muti-link bikes feel they've attained the "holy grail" of suspension? On paper it might seem these bikes, when in longer travel applications, fall somewhere between a high and low single pivot. I have spent some time on a 6" Nomad and find that bike "bobs" almost, if not as much, as my 5" FSR.

    I admit that I'm talking suspension from a "trail bike" perspective, not xc racing. In the latter I'm probably out of the saddle as much as in the saddle, hammering and leaning into corners. Shorter, stiffer travel suits me better there.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,022
    You need a GT Idrive. I haven't been on one, but if it anything like the GT RTS or Schwinn homegrown from back in the days, it is impossible to have any pedal bob. The bottom rear triangle and the bottle bracket are one , and independent of the shock.

    zero pedal feedback.

    BTW, VPP bobs. I owned a few, all of them bob a little compared to a hardtail

  45. #45
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,514
    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    What I've found is that the more likely the design is to "bob" the nicer job it does when pedaling through the rough. The lower single pivot bikes I've owned, like my Lenz and longer travel Spec, were great when powering through choppy terrain - the harder I pedalled, the more plush the suspension became - basically the increased chain torque "pre-loads" the suspension I supose ("squat" I think they call it). If I get a trail bike that is how I want it. If I need PP I throw the lever (not the Spec "brain" - I purposely got the cheaper frame without the Brain).

    I have not owned any of the newer "multi-link" suspension designs but sounds like they would be similar to my old Blur classic. Seems like they use chain torque induced "anti-squat" to prevent bob. Based on reviews sounds like they may have attained a happy medium, but I still don't like the idea of anything that acts against suspension movement when pedaling through the rough.

    If I am not pedalling through the rough, then I can sit and spin, and eliminate bob that way - if we are talking about efficiency that's the way to go anyway, right?

    Speaking of efficiency, a few years back, I routinely tried to climb a brutal 1 mile section of very technical, steep trail. At the time I was on my 4" travel Lenz FS. Despite the obvious "bob" with in the open shock setting I routinely had far better success with the climb in that mode, as opposed to riding in PP mode.

    Do riders out there on longer travel VPP/muti-link bikes feel they've attained the "holy grail" of suspension? On paper it might seem these bikes, when in longer travel applications, fall somewhere between a high and low single pivot. I have spent some time on a 6" Nomad and find that bike "bobs" almost, if not as much, as my 5" FSR.

    I admit that I'm talking suspension from a "trail bike" perspective, not xc racing. In the latter I'm probably out of the saddle as much as in the saddle, hammering and leaning into corners. Shorter, stiffer travel suits me better there.
    You've brought up some important points Miker J. And yes it is squat - thanks for correcting me. I believe that a good suspension designer will try to bring a balance of anti-squat (A-S)and as little as possible of pedal feedback (PFB). If we were only pedalling through rock gardens (either flat or climbing) then there would be very little need for A-S in the suspension. Like you said, platform takes away from how efficient the suspension can deal with obstacles. It is only because we do pedal on smoother sections that it is required because otherwise the bike would be inefficient at those times. I use a DT Swiss EX 200 and the platform is very adjustable by a handlebar remote. If I see any rocks or roots at all, I open it up completly either climbing or down. Why have a shock (and the extra mass of the suspension) if you aren't going to take full advantage of it). When on smoother sections I put it to about 2/3 full and out of the saddle it is full on platform. I have three setting on my Hbar BTW using a souped up Scott remote. I am mostly riding a Tallboy and I feel it is a very good compromise between little PFB and some A-S. It does squat more than my DW Sultan (even though it has 20mm less suspension) which has very little squat even at the lowest IFP pressure as i said in my earlier post. I do feel some PFB on it when pedalling through rocks but it isn't a deal breaker for me.
    Maybe the ideal situation would be to have a little less A-S and have the adjustable platform like on my TB. It pretty much rocks through the rocks. If a bike has very little A-S then the designer is going to have to add in some platform into the shock to keep it from bobbing all over the place. If the A-S is too little then the added platform will ultimately affect how the suspension works over obstacles unless you change out your shock to a DT Swiss or simlar design. Ultimately, like I said, I think a balance is the best so that you don't have to rely on mostly platform to reduce unwanted suspension movement....unless you are riding through rocks and roots your whole ride.

    I have played around with suspension design and came up with one that had a good amount of anti-squat right up to the point beyond the sag position (around 30% sag) . The anti-squat then falls off rapidly to allow for bump absorption when hitting obstacles. I thought that would be the ideal compromise. The only way to achieve that (as far as I can tell) is by having two small links placed in a very specific location.

    Your idea of different types of bikes having differnt amounts of A-S is a good one. Although many designers are now adding A-S into the all mountain bikes so that they pedal more efficiently (on smoother sections or climbing up smoother stuff). If you climb mostly rough stuff, I would stay away from those kinds of bikes as they ultimately wouldn't be as efficient in your case. If you are riding smoother trails with some rocks and taking big air then that type of bike may be ideal.

    Although another topic, the linkage rate is also tied to how a bike feels and how it operates while pedalling and is also very important in suspension design.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,911
    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    I have not owned any of the newer "multi-link" suspension designs but sounds like they would be similar to my old Blur classic. Seems like they use chain torque induced "anti-squat" to prevent bob. Based on reviews sounds like they may have attained a happy medium, but I still don't like the idea of anything that acts against suspension movement when pedaling through the rough.
    Anti-squat does not "act against suspension movement". It is a force, hopefully in proper proportion, that counteracts another force. It does nothing to interfere with suspension function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    If I am not pedalling through the rough, then I can sit and spin, and eliminate bob that way - if we are talking about efficiency that's the way to go anyway, right?
    That doesn't eliminate bob nor improve efficiency in any way, it just lessens your perception of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Speaking of efficiency, a few years back, I routinely tried to climb a brutal 1 mile section of very technical, steep trail. At the time I was on my 4" travel Lenz FS. Despite the obvious "bob" with in the open shock setting I routinely had far better success with the climb in that mode, as opposed to riding in PP mode.
    There is no reason to believe your experience was due to pedaling efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    If we were only pedalling through rock gardens (either flat or climbing) then there would be very little need for A-S in the suspension.
    That makes no sense. What do you think justifies the "need" for anti-squat?

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    It is only because we do pedal on smoother sections that it is required because otherwise the bike would be inefficient at those times.
    A bike with poor anti-squat is inefficient pedaling at ALL times.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    Although many designers are now adding A-S into the all mountain bikes so that they pedal more efficiently (on smoother sections or climbing up smoother stuff). If you climb mostly rough stuff, I would stay away from those kinds of bikes as they ultimately wouldn't be as efficient in your case.
    Nonsense. Ridiculous.

    There seems to be some serious misunderstanding of pedaling efficiency, or lack thereof, with suspensions. Any pedal effort that induces travel in the shock will be energy lost in that shock (since that's what shocks do). There is no such thing as pedal bob that results in greater pedaling efficiency, as is suggested above.

  47. #47
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,477
    Quote Originally Posted by padrefan1982 View Post
    Pivot 429 (again)... Only time I even think about flipping the lever is on long pavement rides.
    Another Pivot 429 vote-

    The thing that sticks out in my opinion is the solid pedal feeling you get out of the saddle- I always hated getting off of a rigid SS or other HT and getting on a full squish just to be forced to sit and spin or pay the price- with the 429 I can push a big gear if I want in or out of the saddle and not get the bobbing FEELING- I say feeling because the suspension does move if you watch it, you just don't feel it in the pedals-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  48. #48
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,514
    Welcome to the thread Craig.
    First of all for those who are not quite sure what squat is I will explain. It is the effect of one of the two physical properties of mass - inertia. Newton's first law of motion states that matter (which contains mass) resists changing its motion IOW, resists being accelerated. When we accelerate on our bikes (which is with every pedal stroke because our strokes are not completely smooth) our mass resists that acceleration and so (being above the pivot point of the suspension) loads or squats the rear suspension. There are two ways to deal with squat or more specifically acceleration squat. First of all, to put in a shock that has a valve so to speak (platform) that will only open up only after a certain load is applied. The downside of this is that the 'valve' also is active when you hit a bump so it interferes with small bump absorption. Everyone here has probably felt this at one time or another. The second way to deal with squat is to use the force of the chain to resist squat by having that force resist the lengthening of the CS (the distance between the BB and the rear axle). The amount of Anti-squat at any one point in the suspension travel proportional to the instantaneous rate of change in the CS, and the force on the chain resists the lengthening. The higher the rate of lengtheneing, the more the A-S. IOW, the higher the pivot or more correctly the more the rear axle moves away from the BB at any one point in the travel, the higher the A-S. The only way a bike does not have any A-S is if the pivot is the BB such as the Lenz Milk Money. That bike would bob all over the place if it didn't have a significant amount of platform built into the shock.
    When a bike that does have A-S (which is about every FS bike out there) and you are pedalling while hitting a bump, there is a resistance that must be overcome by the riders leg power that is called pedal feedback. The more the rear axle is moving away from the BB at the point in which the bump is being absorbed, the more the chain is resisting the suspension's movement. Some riders are more sensitive than others to this effect (again called pedal feeback). Maybe you are not sensitive to PFB craig.
    Craig, out of respect for the other posters here, you may think about backing up your talk with something other than "Nonsense. Ridiculous." Otherwise your talk is nothing other than Nonsense itself.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    I have a Voodoo Canzo (black model) and it came with a Manitou Radium shock. Hated it and swapped it out for a Rock Shox model with a very adjustable pro pedal setup. I really like the bike a lot now. I leave it in pro pedal mode (if that is what you call it) most of the time and occasionally I go wide open. Never go to the lockout mode.
    I feel the front shock of a bike gives a lot more bob than the rear end does. I have a hardtail with a rockshox front shock and it bobs terribly when standing in the wide open mode. The manitou front shock on my Canzo bobs much less and is more adjustable. I wish I had the manitou on my hardtail but 120mm is too much travel for it.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    940

    Smile

    the Turner DW Sultan has the minimal compression valving fox shock offers. Still no need
    for the propedal unless you are standing up and sprinting hard. The bike rides nice and high
    in the stroke for less pedal strikes in the technical stuff.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Pro-Pedal vs Brain???
    By kfb66 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 11-14-2010, 08:58 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-17-2009, 11:38 PM
  3. pro pedal VS the brain
    By Linga115 in forum Specialized
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: 07-23-2008, 02:54 PM
  4. Hanging bikes w/ a brain vertical
    By MtnBkrBob in forum Specialized
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-19-2007, 02:29 PM
  5. Preloading brain equiped bikes for jumps
    By uppo in forum Specialized
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-29-2007, 11:09 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •