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  1. #1
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    Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?

    So after my first custom Ti frame, I am having second thought about the material. Ti is branded (and priced accordingly) as the wonder material for rigid and hardtail bikes. There is just one problem - FLEX.

    My beautiful frame is close to ideal in every aspect except lateral stiffness. I can noticablly flex the frame by twisting the bars and seatpost while standing. Compared to my steel bikes, such as Honzo, there is much less torsion in this test.

    Ti is something like 60% less stiff than cromolly steel, so this is not totally a surprise, and yet...

    The $1,000+ question is, can a Ti frame be made as stiff as a steel frame, without giving up the weight advantage?
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    That looks like your bringing back the hardcore hardtail. What grade Ti was used and what is i.d. and o.d. of the tubing. Depending on diameter and grade, a ti frame can be made stiff or flexy. A friend of mine welded Ti frames at Serotta for a few years and on his personal hardcore frame he added a small brace near the headtube to give it more latteral rigidity, it was designed around a judy xl(back when 100mm fork needed a dual crown). Before yours that was the only "freeride" hardtail frame I had seen.

  3. #3
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    how is the flex affecting your ride?
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    I had a 2010 Lynskey Pro SL and it definitely had some flex. Really squirrely handling. I'd suspect that is why they went with bigger tubes in '11.

  5. #5
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    You were ill-served. A Ti frame can be easily made stiff and still kept light. Tube diameter and wall thickness will profoundly affect the aforementioned. I have a Black sheep and a Kish, and had a Lynskey. All were stiffer than my steel Waltworks (which was an excellent bike).
    Last edited by Climber999; 08-24-2012 at 07:53 AM.

  6. #6
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    No issues with stiffness or flex on my El Mariachi Ti.

  7. #7
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    Flex is a good thing to a point.

  8. #8
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    You're not going to find many frames that flex less than a Honzo. You have picked that frame up, right? What's the weight differential... 30% in the frame alone? Of stiffer material?
    Not surprising.
    The answer to your $1,000 question is: "without a doubt."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    So after my first custom Ti frame, I am having second thought about the material. Ti is branded (and priced accordingly) as the wonder material for rigid and hardtail bikes. There is just one problem - FLEX.

    My beautiful frame is close to ideal in every aspect except lateral stiffness. I can noticablly flex the frame by twisting the bars and seatpost while standing. Compared to my steel bikes, such as Honzo, there is much less torsion in this test.

    Ti is something like 60% less stiff than cromolly steel, so this is not totally a surprise, and yet...

    The $1,000+ question is, can a Ti frame be made as stiff as a steel frame, without giving up the weight advantage?
    Flex is one of the things Ti is know for. A frame can be designed to be stiffer, at the expense of weight and and reduction of the signature smooth ride quality.
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    What is the weight of a Honzo compared to your Ti frame? I tested a Honzo before I got my El Mar, and was blown away by how heavy it was.

  11. #11
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    there are a lot of levels of execution when it comes to Titanium. As with all frame materials.

    At the lower end there can be compromises in reliability.

    I have thrown about 100,000 km at a Moots Ybb and its as good as new. Especially after a factory refinish.

    Lots of good builders out there but it costs a bit more.. Sourcing of Titanium and welding skills are important.. Also the use of machined hard points like seatpost section, BB, Headset and drop outs. It costs more but machined from Paragon or comparable are really durable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon93108 View Post
    What is the weight of a Honzo compared to your Ti frame? I tested a Honzo before I got my El Mar, and was blown away by how heavy it was.


    Honzo is a very heavy and strong frame. Build a 3Kg Titanium frame and you wouldn't hear any complaint about it being flexy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock View Post


    Honzo is a very heavy and strong frame. Build a 3Kg Titanium frame and you wouldn't hear any complaint about it being flexy.
    I've got a book on material strengths (at work), and it states that all metals, with the exception of a few exotic things like gold/platinum, have the same strength to weigh ratio give or take 2%

    I didn't believe it when I first read it, and had to create a speadsheet to prove it to myself.

    If you don't have a size limitation, there is no real advantage to titanium, that can't be overcome with a proper redesign.

  14. #14
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    As already pointed out, Flex can be good. You can also specify the type of titanium, and the gauge (wall) thickness on some tubes to increase stiffness.

    Additionally if you want a stiffer feeling you can always add more material such as a head-tube gusset. Ti isn't painted and doesn't require heat treatment, so you can always take it back to your framebuilder and ask/tell him what you want. They should be able to add more gussets / stiffening material. See the gusset at the tt, dt, ht junction on this bike:
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  15. #15
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    My ti Seven is WAY more stiff & responsive than my steel Niner. It's not punishing though - not as smmoth as the Niner but it rides way smoother than my 2011 Canondale Alloy Flash without giving up any responsivesness. It's all about the build quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon93108 View Post
    What is the weight of a Honzo compared to your Ti frame? I tested a Honzo before I got my El Mar, and was blown away by how heavy it was.
    Stock build was it? Those are well over 30 lbs, close approaching 35 lbs. The frame weight itself is on par with other All-Mountain cromoly frames out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    I've got a book on material strengths (at work), and it states that all metals, with the exception of a few exotic things like gold/platinum, have the same strength to weigh ratio give or take 2%

    I didn't believe it when I first read it, and had to create a speadsheet to prove it to myself.
    I know for a fact that is not true. I'd love to see what you got, though.

    Strength-to-weight (or specific strength) as it is defined does not give a complete picture of a material's performance. It does not take into account susceptibility to fatigue, for example.

    That said, Ti has >30% higher strength-to-weight than aluminum, and about 10% higher than steel.

    There's a reason you don't see 3.5-lb. steel frames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I know for a fact that is not true. I'd love to see what you got, though.

    Strength-to-weight (or specific strength) as it is defined does not give a complete picture of a material's performance. It does not take into account susceptibility to fatigue, for example.

    That said, Ti has >30% higher strength-to-weight than aluminum, and about 10% higher than steel.

    There's a reason you don't see 3.5-lb. steel frames.
    True that, to add to it this doesn't take into account the treatment of the metal.

    Annealing, case hardening, tempering, quenching, and other processes modify the lattice structure of the crystalline material. These processes can take the EXACT SAME base material and completely change strength/stiffness/fatigue properties.
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  19. #19
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    You can certainly stiffin your frame. Aluminum is more elastic that titanium, yet there are some seriously stiff Aluminum frames.

    BTW, what bikeabuser said is patently false. Link to data proof: Specific strength - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    I've got a book on material strengths (at work), and it states that all metals, with the exception of a few exotic things like gold/platinum, have the same strength to weigh ratio give or take 2%

    I didn't believe it when I first read it, and had to create a speadsheet to prove it to myself.

    If you don't have a size limitation, there is no real advantage to titanium, that can't be overcome with a proper redesign.
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I know for a fact that is not true. I'd love to see what you got, though.

    Strength-to-weight (or specific strength) as it is defined does not give a complete picture of a material's performance. It does not take into account susceptibility to fatigue, for example.

    That said, Ti has >30% higher strength-to-weight than aluminum, and about 10% higher than steel.

    There's a reason you don't see 3.5-lb. steel frames.
    It's not Strength-to-weight, it's stiffness to weight ratio what's almost the same.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-ratios.jpg  


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    Strikes me as a bike where standover height was prioritized over stiffness.

  22. #22
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    Stiffness to weight ratio is not constant among metals. Specific modulus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Compare steel to copper. It is similar for aluminum, steel, magnesium, and titanium.

  23. #23
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    My old Ti bike - Kona King Kahuna '98 - was plenty stiff. I chose that frame specifically because the larger diameter shaped tubing in the front end would make it stiffer and I knew that XL frames especially require that due to the longer tubes.
    Ti frames can be built up relatively solid, if the builder is experienced, aware of your size, weight and riding style and isn't restricted by a requested frame weight limit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I know for a fact that is not true. I'd love to see what you got, though.

    Strength-to-weight (or specific strength) as it is defined does not give a complete picture of a material's performance. It does not take into account susceptibility to fatigue, for example.

    That said, Ti has >30% higher strength-to-weight than aluminum, and about 10% higher than steel.

    There's a reason you don't see 3.5-lb. steel frames.
    Perhaps you're misunderstanding what I wrote from that book.

    Strength is a statement of resistance to 5 physical forces that exist.
    They are tension, compression, torsion, bending, and shear.

    And you are 100% correct about fatigue ... Titanium does not do as well in this category as steel.
    With that said, all designs are a compromise, and material choice, size, and geometry, are all compromises.

    The example I worked on, dealt primarily with a bending force, and when comparing steel to aluminum, to obtain an equal resistance to that force, the aluminum diameter was increased until the resistance was equal to steel, at which point the weight was basicaly the same.

    As was stated earlier in the thread ... A design change can eliminate the flex being discussed, and the best method to acheive this IMO would be triangulation.

    I will also admit that my book reference is dated, and titanium might have been in that exotic category, as it was probably written prior to Russia flooding the market with titanium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock View Post
    It's not Strength-to-weight, it's stiffness to weight ratio what's almost the same.
    Man it's been a long time since I looked into this ... Yea, you're right ... Stiffness to weight.

    Sorry all !!!

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddouble518 View Post
    That looks like your bringing back the hardcore hardtail. What grade Ti was used and what is i.d. and o.d. of the tubing. Depending on diameter and grade, a ti frame can be made stiff or flexy. A friend of mine welded Ti frames at Serotta for a few years and on his personal hardcore frame he added a small brace near the headtube to give it more latteral rigidity, it was designed around a judy xl(back when 100mm fork needed a dual crown). Before yours that was the only "freeride" hardtail frame I had seen.
    Tubing is Russian straight gauge with the following ODs:

    DT - 38.2 mm
    TT - 32.0
    CS - 22.3
    SS - 20.2
    ST - 35.6

    All pretty beefy by steel standards, but not so much for Ti. I think a major part of the torsional flex is the TT-ST junction. The extra standover is not really needed for me, but makes for a less stiff tubing junction.

  27. #27
    JB
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    To clarify, this is not the good flex that people look for in a steel or Ti frame. This is a lateral instability that is very noticable in riding on pavement just by putting leverage on the bars. The rear end feels "loose" like wagging your tail. It affects the tracking and stability of the ride in smooth and rough sections.

    XL Honzo weight is~7 lbs, compared to 4.5lb for this frame. As much as I like the rest of the bike, this is not a trait I want to live with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    Tubing is Russian straight gauge with the following ODs:

    DT - 38.2 mm
    TT - 32.0
    CS - 22.3
    SS - 20.2
    ST - 35.6

    All pretty beefy by steel standards, but not so much for Ti. I think a major part of the torsional flex is the TT-ST junction. The extra standover is not really needed for me, but makes for a less stiff tubing junction.
    Here is a beefy Ti frame that is similar in design, but certain areas have noticeably more reinforcement or thickness. Methinks it was more the design than the material?

    EWR Bikes - E-MotionTi 29

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Here is a beefy Ti frame that is similar in design, but certain areas have noticeably more reinforcement or thickness. Methinks it was more the design than the material?

    EWR Bikes - E-MotionTi 29
    Interesting design. The size of those tubes is probably what I would need to get the stiffness I'm looking for. However, the geo is not quite there, not looking for a race bike!

    Triton did not have tubes that large at the time the bike was built. They have a 46mm now, but that requires a new frame.

  30. #30
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    So your front and rear feel lose?

    IMO the front flex is due to the fact of small diameter DT, and the fact that there is no additional gusseting connecting the DT to the TT. Since you have a larger size frame and the TT does not meat the DD prior to the HT, it would have benefited from an additional piece to bridge the two.

    For the rear, what do the seatstay and chainstay bridge pieces look like? These can affect lateral stiffness. Additionally i don't see a seatstay to chainstay brake boss on the rear triangle, Another thing that would help. Larger diameter tapered CS tubing would have helped but i am not sure as to what is actually available in TI.
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    I noticed a dramatic difference with my Motobecane Ti 29's lateral flexibilty when I upgraded hubs/wheels. I had the fork lowers swapped out to a 20mm axle and the rear hub is 135x10 bolt on, Hope hubs.

  32. #32
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    How's the sizing and geo compare to the Honzo?
    konahonzo

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Perhaps you're misunderstanding what I wrote from that book.
    mmm... nope.
    you said strength-to-weight for "all metals" is within (+/-)2%.
    pretty simple... and not at all true.
    going on about bending and russian titanium doesn't change that simple statement.
    as Vrock pointed out, you probably meant stiffness-to-weight, which is of course different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    The extra standover is not really needed for me, but makes for a less stiff tubing junction.
    I think you probably hit the nail on the head.
    I'm also wondering how you end up with something that "is not really needed for [you]" on a custom frame.
    I hope you get it worked out.
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  35. #35
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    My Seven ti hardtail was not light at 26lbs with a XTR build. But there was no flex either

    I am not a frame designer, so I am not familiar with specific OD's. The extra bridge from the ST to the TT makes me wonder if the designer thought it would be flexy. Also another trick is to join the DT and TT at the HT for added stiffness, which your bike does not have.



    But I do have a strong concern with most ti builders that they design so few mountain bikes compared to road, that they are stuck in the 90's XC mode: 71/73 angles, 13cm stems, 80mm forks.

    Take this line from Serotta's website about their Ti Max:

    Don’t ask for massive over-size head tubes. They’re stupid. In order to have long term strength, you need to have the right amount of material and a frame built for a 1 1/8” fork gives you the best strength/weight combination.
    I've been meaning to give them a call and ask what about the Lefty fork, which is designed for 1.5 XC frames.

    When it comes to custom frames, there is a lot of fudge factor: want a 22lb bike and keep it stiff? May not happen. I need at least 12 inches of standover. You get a non-double diamond frame.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    To clarify, this is not the good flex that people look for in a steel or Ti frame. This is a lateral instability that is very noticable in riding on pavement just by putting leverage on the bars. The rear end feels "loose" like wagging your tail. It affects the tracking and stability of the ride in smooth and rough sections.

    XL Honzo weight is~7 lbs, compared to 4.5lb for this frame. As much as I like the rest of the bike, this is not a trait I want to live with.
    Just curious how much you weigh?

    Post the geometry as well,,,if you dont mind.
    Last edited by Canyon93108; 08-24-2012 at 02:29 PM.

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    Seven really know how to build a frame to behave to a specific and defined stiffness on an arbitary scale. Take a look at their website-it's how you build it not what it's made of.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    To clarify, this is not the good flex that people look for in a steel or Ti frame. This is a lateral instability that is very noticable in riding on pavement just by putting leverage on the bars. The rear end feels "loose" like wagging your tail. It affects the tracking and stability of the ride in smooth and rough sections.

    XL Honzo weight is~7 lbs, compared to 4.5lb for this frame. As much as I like the rest of the bike, this is not a trait I want to live with.
    As others have said, I would attribute this to the design rather than the material. I have an El Mariachi Ti size L that weighs around 4.25 lbs (so fairly similar in weight to your larger frame). As I said before, no issues with flex at all other than a slightly smoother ride than my steel hardtail. The Ti frame seems just as stiff as the steel frame when cornering or accelerating and both Ti and steel are not too far off from Aluminum hard tails I have had in the past.

    First thing that jumps out at me is that my frame seems to have much larger diameter tubes than yours.
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    Sanjoro....
    ."joining the downtube to the headtube" does not make a frame "stiffer" If anything it is weaker and less stiff. Companies miter tubes that way fit them on a certain size headtube and to clear a fork's crown. A downtube completely welded to the headtube with no mitering to the toptube is way Stiffer

  40. #40
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    There was a guy rocking a Ti frame at our clubs mid-week TT and he DNF due to a break near the head tube. Steel breaks, aluminum breaks, Ti apparently breaks and so does carbon. So it all breaks eventually. What's the problem?
    SS ==> Nut up or Shut up!

  41. #41
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    All I know is that my Kona Raijin is the best frame/bike I've ever ridden. I'm on that thing any time I get the chance...whether my muscles are sore or not. Every day I jump on it after work and at least ride it around the neighborhood. I don't notice any flex, feels smooth, snappy, tracks great and puts a smile on my face.

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  42. #42
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    My Black sheep has noticeable "flex" but it rides so nice.
    A bike built out of steel H beam would be super stiff, but it would be crap to ride.

  43. #43
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    Mechanically you can produce frames from steel / aluminium / titanium with same stiffness.....but the tube diameters, wall thicknesses and fatigue life will be very different. E.g. if you select a steel frame as blueprint for a Ti bike, you want different tubing to get the similar ride.

    Yours seem to be build with a rather skinny downtube.

    P.S. In the News Blog from Firefly Bicycles is a post giving insight into tube selection and how to finetune the stiffness/comfort of a (titanium) bike. (Can't link to yet due to low no. of posts )
    -------------------------------
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  44. #44
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    Yes.... thanks for linking
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  46. #46
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    Cant you just get the down tube replaced with a bigger tube?

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    All I know is that my Kona Raijin is the best frame/bike I've ever ridden. I'm on that thing any time I get the chance...whether my muscles are sore or not. Every day I jump on it after work and at least ride it around the neighborhood. I don't notice any flex, feels smooth, snappy, tracks great and puts a smile on my face.

    Lovely bike, I'm considering one for my next HT build.

  48. #48
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    I have the 2012 Lynskey Pro29 SL....no flex just like the Kona Raijin..but wait..they are nearly identical frames made by the same company.

    The big difference from previous year models is a wider bottom bracket (more welding surface, bigger BB) oversized downtube (2") oversized head tube (44mm) and a larger chainstay brace.

    Like everything, its not always the material but the design and build quality.

    My Lynskey does everything I want it to. I don't get lateral flex, I get some vertical compliance from the stays, but most of it comes from the great Ti. post.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    Lovely bike, I'm considering one for my next HT build.
    I've got an extra Raijin frame for sale if you're interested...it's also a 20".

    I got greedy and bought two
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    I've got an extra Raijin frame for sale if you're interested...it's also a 20".

    I got greedy and bought two
    Damn I think the 20" will be a touch too big for me!

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    Tubing is Russian straight gauge with the following ODs:

    DT - 38.2 mm
    TT - 32.0
    CS - 22.3
    SS - 20.2
    ST - 35.6

    All pretty beefy by steel standards, but not so much for Ti. I think a major part of the torsional flex is the TT-ST junction. The extra standover is not really needed for me, but makes for a less stiff tubing junction.
    Yup...BTW I didn't say it before but that is one bad a$$ looking frame. I really like the stance. Like others have said you can always add gussets if needed. I would get a super long set tube now and run it as deep into the frame as i could to link it up.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    So your front and rear feel lose?

    IMO the front flex is due to the fact of small diameter DT, and the fact that there is no additional gusseting connecting the DT to the TT. Since you have a larger size frame and the TT does not meat the DD prior to the HT, it would have benefited from an additional piece to bridge the two.

    For the rear, what do the seatstay and chainstay bridge pieces look like? These can affect lateral stiffness. Additionally i don't see a seatstay to chainstay brake boss on the rear triangle, Another thing that would help. Larger diameter tapered CS tubing would have helped but i am not sure as to what is actually available in TI.
    Seat stay bridge, check:

    Chain stay bridge, check:

    Here is my subjective flex rating for hardtails I've owned:

    Cannondale M500 (GIANT Alum DT) - 9
    Honzo - 7.5
    Waltworks (custom steel)- 6
    Triton (custom Ti) - 4
    Bike made out of pasta - 1

    I suspect the 2Souls Slim Jim will eclipse the Honzo as stiffest steel AM out there (not that I'm looking for THAT level of performance). I do like some springyness in a frame, that's what steel bikes are for.

    Didn't know that I needed a huge ovalized or hydroformed DT on a Ti bike, oh well, live and learn. I will enquire about a head tube gusset, as I don't see much else that can be done with this frame.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurospek View Post
    How's the sizing and geo compare to the Honzo?
    Very similar, I was going for a lighter version of Honzo with a few tweeks:

    - Shorter front-center

    - Slightly higher BB

    - Slightly longer HT

    - Slightly longer CS

    - Can run 2x10, but decided to go 1x10 since I've gotten used to that on the heavier Honzo.

    Overall, I really like the handling, especially in tight sections where XL Honzo can be a bit of a handfull. Ironically, it doesn't seem to climb quite as well as Honzo, perhaps bars are too high? Pretty sweet for all day epics given the flexiliousness of the frame.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada 29er View Post
    To clarify, this is not the good flex that people look for in a steel or Ti frame. This is a lateral instability that is very noticable in riding on pavement just by putting leverage on the bars. The rear end feels "loose" like wagging your tail. It affects the tracking and stability of the ride in smooth and rough sections.
    I like how you said "wagging the tail". I used to get the same feeling from the motobecane (bikes direct) ti frame I was riding but couldn't think of a good way to describe it. That frame also had vertical flex, which made for a pretty comfy ride, but it wasn't important to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Since you have a larger size frame and the TT does not meat the DD prior to the HT, it would have benefited from an additional piece to bridge the two.
    Or at least ovalize the DT at the HT and BB areas. Even the cheap motobecane frames have that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Or at least ovalize the DT at the HT and BB areas. Even the cheap motobecane frames have that.
    Yep, this is pretty much a requirement if you are using a large size DT.


    To the OP. Good luck, nice thing about TI is you can tweek it.
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    ^ The other nice thing about Ti, is that it is in high demand. If you are not liking the flex, sell it and continue your search for a stiffer frame. I've heard Moots' frames are very stiff (tend to be), or look into steel.

  57. #57
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    I'm trying to picture how you check for flex, "by twisting the bars and seatpost while standing". Could it be more the wheel and not the frame?

  58. #58
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    It depends totally on the frame design, builder and wall thickness and possibly your riding style.

    A short story.

    First Ti frame. Kona back in the day. Loved the frame, sold it when I switched to 29'ers 10+ years ago. First BS brand frame, super flexy. Replaced by builder. Also flexy and had other issues. Ended up breaking it and after repair, sold it. Now, I have an Indy Fab. Ti Deluxe and I can safely say it's even better than the Kona. I detect almost no side-to-side flex and it's so comfortable to ride. Additionally, it climbs like a dream. No complaints whatsoever.

    Would I do the same Indy Fab frame again? Definitely (except those guys are now the Firefly owners)!

  59. #59
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    Wow, just saw this thread.

    So...we are discussing the case with Nevada 29er and we are ready to add gussets on the top and down tube where they meet headtube.

    However, I see a few reasons why this frame feels flexy to Nevada 29er:
    1) Rider weight. I acknowledge that I had to reconsider this before designing a frame.
    Should have used 22mm seat stays and 35mm top tube.
    Probably also 44 or 46mm down tube. We do ovalizing, no rocket science there.
    This would make a heavier though a stiffer frame.
    We have just built a road frame for a rider who is 130kg. Used large tubing everywhere and I want to hear his report once the bike is built up.

    2) The chainstays are beefy and solid (22mm), but due to drivetrain clearance limitations + customer request for short stays and large tire clearance we had to use the boxed BB section. Though it looks good and allows the clearance, it is less stiff than just chainstays made of tube all the way.
    We had checked this in SolidWorks and the difference is obvious. There is no much choice for those who want short stays though

    3) There was a request to lower the standover / or add a brace between top tube and seat tube. I have to recheck the emails. We ran through a few versions of designs.
    The classic solution would be stiffer (seatstay to seat tube junction opposite to top tube to seat tube junction). We would loose the standover though...
    4) The large framesize required large dropouts. Obviously the breezer dropouts from Paragon would work better but they are an extra $$ and are quite pain to weld to 22mm stays.
    At the same time our large dropouts are still stiffer than the ones you can buy from suppliers.

    This is some good experience for us too.
    It will force me to offer less customization freedom to customers. Because we know how certain designs work and sometimes we have to risk if we are asked to do something new. I do not want topics like this to appear as you understand. I want my customers to be happy with their Triton frames.

    Dear Nevada 29er, I have already offered you a new Triton frame with a nice discount.
    I am open to other solutions too.

    Thanks,

    Dmitry
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triton Bikes View Post


    3) There was a request to lower the standover / or add a brace between top tube and seat tube. I have to recheck the emails. We ran through a few versions of designs.
    The classic solution would be stiffer (seatstay to seat tube junction opposite to top tube to seat tube junction). We would loose the standover though...

    Thanks,

    Dmitry
    Maybe you should educate clients that standover is a minor consideration in their geometry despite their irrational fear of somehow nutting themselves on the TT rather than the far higher stem or their saddle.
    In all the years I have ridden MTB's the only time I have nutted anything was on the back of my saddle.
    Neither of my current MTB's offer me any significant standover. Then again I dont spend a lot of my time standing over my bike.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Maybe you should educate clients that standover is a minor consideration in their geometry despite their irrational fear of somehow nutting themselves on the TT rather than the far higher stem or their saddle.
    In all the years I have ridden MTB's the only time I have nutted anything was on the back of my saddle.
    Neither of my current MTB's offer me any significant standover. Then again I dont spend a lot of my time standing over my bike.
    Maybe you just have a really tight nut sack.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Maybe you just have a really tight nut sack.
    Maybe.
    Maybe others spend too much time reading and believing stuff they read on the internet?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Maybe.
    Maybe others spend too much time reading and believing stuff they read on the internet?
    Ain't that the truth!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    nut sack.

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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    It depends totally on the frame design, builder and wall thickness and possibly your riding style.
    That.

    I have had a few different ti frames over the years- including in the last 2 years a Lynskey and an IF in 29. Although the bikes were close in terms of fit they rode differently.

    Just because it is made from the same material it does not mean that they will ride in a simalar manner.

    It really depends on the builder and tube selection.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouan View Post
    That.

    I have had a few different ti frames over the years- including in the last 2 years a Lynskey and an IF in 29. Although the bikes were close in terms of fit they rode differently.

    Just because it is made from the same material it does not mean that they will ride in a simalar manner.

    It really depends on the builder and tube selection.
    Thanks

    Could you quantify some of the differences, and also which you preferred from the Lynskey/IF

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonesetter2004 View Post
    Thanks

    Could you quantify some of the differences, and also which you preferred from the Lynskey/IF
    It is hard to do a straight apples to apples comparision: The lynskey was a traditional 1 1/8 head tube whereas the IF is made for lefty. And the Lynskey used sliders and the IF does not.

    My impressions, not scientific mind you, was that the Lynskey was not quite stiff enough in some places- it was good, but not quite perfect for what I wanted in a bike (endurance racing).

    When I bought the Lynskey, I read the reviews and a few people mentioned this as well. It was not until I rode a totally different bike made out of a different material that it really highlighted the lack of rigidity. I felt like the head tube and the drive train were a little soft. That being said, it was not a major issue- Lynskey makes great bikes and I know they have addressed some of these issues (just rode 2012 Lynskey 29er- great bike).

    The IF was/is heavier- it rides a little more solidly and tracks (not sure if this is due to lefty) nicely. It is also not as quick a turner as the Lynskey- Lynskey has great handling.

    Both are/were great bikes- the Lynskey was lighter and felt racier in terms of how it cornered where as the IF is heavier and feels more "planted" in the trail- meaning it tracks well, but dont expect it to be able to jump to different lines easily. It made for a better endurance type bike races, where as the Lynskey was better for shorter/faster rides.

    I had both bikes built at the same time and if it made fiscal sense I would have kept them both- I sold the Lynskey.

    I will say the Lynskey was very confidence inspiring and I rode technical stuff the best on it.

    I would get another Lynskey.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triton Bikes View Post
    Wow, just saw this thread........

    Dear Nevada 29er, I have already offered you a new Triton frame with a nice discount.
    I am open to other solutions too.

    Thanks,

    Dmitry
    This is an excellent response. Good customer service IMO, looks like nevada29er has plenty of options to get his frame "beefed up" or a new frame.
    "Any wheel size is better than sitting at a computer all day." -Myself

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    This is an excellent response. Good customer service IMO, looks like nevada29er has plenty of options to get his frame "beefed up" or a new frame.
    Quote Originally Posted by grouan View Post
    It is hard to do a straight apples to apples comparision: The lynskey was a traditional 1 1/8 head tube whereas the IF is made for lefty. And the Lynskey used sliders and the IF does not.

    My impressions, not scientific mind you, was that the Lynskey was not quite stiff enough in some places- it was good, but not quite perfect for what I wanted in a bike (endurance racing).

    When I bought the Lynskey, I read the reviews and a few people mentioned this as well. It was not until I rode a totally different bike made out of a different material that it really highlighted the lack of rigidity. I felt like the head tube and the drive train were a little soft. That being said, it was not a major issue- Lynskey makes great bikes and I know they have addressed some of these issues (just rode 2012 Lynskey 29er- great bike).

    The IF was/is heavier- it rides a little more solidly and tracks (not sure if this is due to lefty) nicely. It is also not as quick a turner as the Lynskey- Lynskey has great handling.

    Both are/were great bikes- the Lynskey was lighter and felt racier in terms of how it cornered where as the IF is heavier and feels more "planted" in the trail- meaning it tracks well, but dont expect it to be able to jump to different lines easily. It made for a better endurance type bike races, where as the Lynskey was better for shorter/faster rides.

    I had both bikes built at the same time and if it made fiscal sense I would have kept them both- I sold the Lynskey.

    I will say the Lynskey was very confidence inspiring and I rode technical stuff the best on it.

    I would get another Lynskey.
    Brilliant & comprehensive, thanks

  70. #70
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    Back to Moscow

    The frame is going back for re-tooling: new HT/DT/TT stiffener gusset and CS/SS cross brace on non-drive side. It will come back like the $6 Million Dollar Man: stronger, faster, stiffer...(I can hope)


    Thanks for taking care of this Dmitry!!
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  71. #71
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    Please post an update when it returns
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  72. #72
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    Big confidence to Triton

  73. #73
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    Some great customer service there from Triton!

    A standard response from a custom frame maker would be on the lines of " well we made it to your specs and you gave approval to the final drawings so it's your baby now! Ride it or sell it"

    I just got a 29 frame from Triton and communication with Dmitry has been great. For what it's worth my large size 29 HT is not flexy at all, I would say its tighter than a nuns c**t!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    I've got a book on material strengths (at work), and it states that all metals, with the exception of a few exotic things like gold/platinum, have the same strength to weigh ratio give or take 2%

    I didn't believe it when I first read it, and had to create a speadsheet to prove it to myself.
    Its not even wrong.
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  75. #75
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    Nevada, glad to hear Dmitry is taking care of you. Wouldnt expect anything less from that outfit. You had me a bit worried as I'm the 130kg guy who ordered the road bike and am not looking for a lot of flex. I'm not worried though since Dmitry and I went over it in great lengths to make sure I'll have a stiff ride.
    Make sure to let us know how it works out for you when you get it back. I'll certainly post my ride report in his Triton thread here. I also have a nice write up of my experience dealing with Triton on roadbike review (from Russia with Love...)
    I should have my frame shortly and will be able to give a "flex" report.
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  76. #76
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    Just finished building up my 2012 Lynskey pro29. I find with the new tubing there is very little flex. It's much stiffer than my previous carbon hardtails, though does weigh about a pound more, at 21 lb. Nothing beats the visual sexiness of those helix tubes though, and the ride quality is excellent.
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  77. #77
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    ^ this!

    I seriously have no bike lust since getting my two Ti sleds going...still working on a fully though, for which I still lust...and that damn Krampus!
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  78. #78
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    I agree, I finally got to see a Lynskey Pro29 up close and those darn twisted helix tubes might as well be advertised as "twisted steel and sex appeal".
    Sad that they're not ueber Clyde proof. Lynskey told me I would flex the standard helix Pro29.

    appleSSeed, are you thinking Ti for your FS?
    Until Triton gets into the FS business I've got my eye on Jeronimo custom frames. Full Ti build. Works of art. They can build whatever you can dream up.
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  79. #79
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    ^ no way! lol, not for me...I've yet to make over $12K in a given year my dude! haha...def. aluminum, probably a satori
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    ^ no way! lol, not for me...I've yet to make over $12K in a given year my dude! haha...def. aluminum, probably a satori
    The amount of bikes/parts you go through on sub-poverty income is pretty impressive!
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The amount of bikes/parts you go through on sub-poverty income is pretty impressive!
    Thanks bro! I'm impressed myself sometimes...my now ex-girlfriend not so much.
    I don't think it's sub-poverty if you don't have kids/family...though it's damn close. I just recently looked it up. The bad part is that I have my MBA in finance and can't find a job that pays anything close to what most consider a living wage. Looking into opening a small bike shop in the next couple months though.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    finance
    If you give up all ethics and sell your soul to the devil I'd bet you'll find a job very soon. Maybe investment banking?
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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  83. #83
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    My nearly 20 year old Diamonback Ti frame feels stiffer to me than my Niner SIR9. The frame was actually made by Sandvik. The top tube is ovalized at the seat tube, and the seat tube is ovalized at the bottom bracket to enhance stiffness. The chainstays are also ovalized as well as tapering from 7/8-inch at the BB to to 3/4-inch at the dropout. The tubes are also fairly large diameter (especially for a 1993 bicycle) - the downtube is 1.5" and the top tube and seat tube are 1.25".

    I think that titanium is a great material for a hardtail mtb frame. A lightweight steel frame can ride as nicely and not weigh a lot more, but with ti you don't have to worry about rust or paint chipping/scratching. This 20 year old bike will probably still be going strong after another 20 years.

    I still enjoy riding this old bike. I switched from the early 90's style 130mm stem and flat, narrow bars to a 100mm stem and riser bars, and I upgraded the old cantilever brakes to V-brakes, which work great. In one of these photos it still had the old RockShox Mag21 SL fork on it. It now has the original rigid steel fork on it (Tange Super Ultralight, triple-butted Prestige fork), and I also have a 2003 80mm SID fork that I sometimes use on it. With the rigid fork the bike weighs about 20 lbs. Check out the cool dropouts.
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  84. #84
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    ^ Nice. It's amazing how properly set up v-brakes work just as good as todays disk brakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ Nice. It's amazing how properly set up v-brakes work just as good as todays disk brakes.
    Yeah. The photos show the old Avid Tri-Align cantilevers with Paul's Love levers. It now has XTR V-brakes with XT levers. I didn't realize how much the old cantis sucked until I switched to the V-brakes.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    Yeah. The photos show the old Avid Tri-Align cantilevers with Paul's Love levers. It now has XTR V-brakes with XT levers. I didn't realize how much the old cantis sucked until I switched to the V-brakes.
    I'm having flash backs to the early 90's

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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    Thanks bro! I'm impressed myself sometimes...my now ex-girlfriend not so much.
    I don't think it's sub-poverty if you don't have kids/family...though it's damn close. I just recently looked it up. The bad part is that I have my MBA in finance and can't find a job that pays anything close to what most consider a living wage. Looking into opening a small bike shop in the next couple months though.
    Try looking for a job here in Russia. They just love expats here. Associates at IB here earn at least USD 8-10k net monthly. At the age of 25-30.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    My nearly 20 year old Diamonback Ti frame feels stiffer to me than my Niner SIR9. The frame was actually made by Sandvik. The top tube is ovalized at the seat tube, and the seat tube is ovalized at the bottom bracket to enhance stiffness. The chainstays are also ovalized as well as tapering from 7/8-inch at the BB to to 3/4-inch at the dropout. The tubes are also fairly large diameter (especially for a 1993 bicycle) - the downtube is 1.5" and the top tube and seat tube are 1.25".

    I think that titanium is a great material for a hardtail mtb frame. A lightweight steel frame can ride as nicely and not weigh a lot more, but with ti you don't have to worry about rust or paint chipping/scratching. This 20 year old bike will probably still be going strong after another 20 years.

    I still enjoy riding this old bike. I switched from the early 90's style 130mm stem and flat, narrow bars to a 100mm stem and riser bars, and I upgraded the old cantilever brakes to V-brakes, which work great. In one of these photos it still had the old RockShox Mag21 SL fork on it. It now has the original rigid steel fork on it (Tange Super Ultralight, triple-butted Prestige fork), and I also have a 2003 80mm SID fork that I sometimes use on it. With the rigid fork the bike weighs about 20 lbs. Check out the cool dropouts.
    Please post more pics. Are those brakes XTR?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by aBicycle View Post
    Please post more pics. Are those brakes XTR?
    The blue brakes in the previous photos were Avid Tri-Align brakes with Paul's Love Levers. It now has XTR V-brakes with XT levers, which work a whole lot better.

    I also recently replaced the old Shimano 8-speed drivetrain with somewhat newer SRAM 9-speed stuff that I took off another bike. X0 twisters, X0 rear. der., XX front der., PC991 chain. With the larger rear cogs (went from 11-28 to 11-34) I really have no need for the granny ring, so I might convert it to 1x9 next.

    It's pretty much just a goof-around bike now. I have flat pedals on it and use it for casual rides with the family or riding around the driveway with my son or at the pump track.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-dbr.jpg  


  90. #90
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    I just want to add props to Dmitry at Triton for showing great customer service to the original poster.

  91. #91
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    My ox platinum frame was a littel flexy, so when I got quiring to make something similar in Ti without the front end flex he gave me a larger diameter top tube. It did the trick. Just that little stiffer to make it handle better, but not harsh. It's probably a converstation you should have had with your builder, but sometimes oyu learn these things through experience unfortunately. My feeling is that he frame design of your ti frame won't help things either. Going away from the standard diamond shape (withthe low standover like you mentioned) will have it's consequences, not that it is necessarily a bad thng of course. It just like you have flex in the places you don't want it.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    sometimes oyu learn these things through experience unfortunately.
    I saw fortunately.

  93. #93
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    sorry didn't see how long this thread was must have clicked the wrong button hence out of date reply. For what it is worth, that steel frame of mine rides much better witha rigid fork so the flexy ti frame may still have place.

  94. #94
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    I am currently in the market, but, do not have enough posts to put up my own post. Considering the 13 Salsa Mariachi ti vs. a 12 carbon Breezer cloud 9 team? They are close to the same $$$ but, the Breezer will come with the protective film on the down tube and upgraded cockpit components (bar, seat post,stem)

    Thoughts? This is not a I need this bike, this is a I want this bike, a tech war to keep up with my much faster wife.
    Last edited by chudzikb; 11-14-2012 at 05:41 PM.

  95. #95
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    Frame Refresh

    Well, here it is. My frame has hit the gym, and is looking pretty stout! Thanks for your hard work Dmitry, please ship soon, more snow is coming!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-triton-bikes-november-2012-33.jpg  

    Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-triton-bikes-november-2012-34.jpg  

    Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-triton-bikes-november-2012-35.jpg  

    Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-triton-bikes-november-2012-36.jpg  

    Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?-triton-bikes-november-2012-37.jpg  


  96. #96
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    the welding looks ****ing bang on, it looks so ****ing bang on i want to eat it. Although it is at least polished in one way or another. but seriously the welds are really nice, no matter how much oxygen got in there. and its kinda unleikely a welder that would weld trhat would be happy with no prote4ctive gaS. probably it will last a long time.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  97. #97
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    what is the chainstay length?
    the detail on the chainstays near the bb is awesome

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triton Bikes View Post
    Try looking for a job here in Russia. They just love expats here. Associates at IB here earn at least USD 8-10k net monthly. At the age of 25-30.
    Too bad you don't have civil rights!

  99. #99
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    Life is no worse in russia than in the us, you just set the margin/expectations lower. and in russia its set at a realistic point whereas some other countries have just "borrowed" their whealth, short term, with nothing backing it up. No ****ing nothing! The only countries that are financially working (properly) are the scandinavian countries inluding denmark and germany/austria and belgium, maybe switzerland and the netherlands (sweden is borderline). the rest can kiss their sorry asses goodbye unfortunately. Living way way above their national production.

    Good luck you fukrs, youre gonna need it when the ban(k)hammer comes to town. Which is very soon.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  100. #100
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    The w3ay you calculate whealth/capita is national resources (such as minerals or gas/oil or whatever the **** you have as long as you have something) per square km imo or maybe per person. and russia tops that list no matter how you juke the stats. simple as that. and the future will show im rite. soon too.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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