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  1. #1
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    Ti or Scandium frame?

    I am in the hunt for a good quality, relatively inexpensive ti frame like the Moto fly team ti 29er frame. I saw a good deal on a voodoo scandium frame online the other day and it got me thinking about whether that's the better choice. Assume both come in at the same price, which do you think is the better bet? Thanks.

    P.S. Looking at the combination of strength + low weight + cost

  2. #2
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    Strong, Light, Cheap...pick 2

    Titanium...FTW

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    You could probably buy 3 or 4 scandium frames for the same price as a titanium frame. The ti will last much longer and can be repaired. Scandium is cheaper, but more fragile. I had the same choices and went with the voodoo.

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    Both hardtails, right? I'd go ti. Scandium is just an alloy of aluminum, with the same overly harsh ride in a hardtail application.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Both hardtails, right? I'd go ti. Scandium is just an alloy of aluminum, with the same overly harsh ride in a hardtail application.

    Yep, both hardtails.

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    In my experience the scandium ride is not as "harsh" as a standard aluminum frame. The tubing is thinner so there is some nice flex. Scandium is not as soft as ti, which can be seen as an advantage or a disadvantage. I also think that the "harshness" is the desired characteristic of a hardtail. It could also be called the quickness, or stiffness. Its great for racing. Some things that will take the bite out of a hardtail are nice fat tires, a carbon post, and carbon bars.

  7. #7
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    do you want a durable bike or one that will most likely crack in ~3 seasons? I'd go Ti for ride as well

  8. #8
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    Niner Air9 I had rode great... very springy for an aluminium alloy. I did have a warranty issue with a frame crack, but it was taken care of in 48hrs.

    My lynskey ridgeline is smoother. But, honestly... not enough to warrant the $500 difference. I bought my frame used, otherwise I'd have something else. I'm cheap.

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    Ti

    I simply could not have responded and typed that ANY faster!

    NO QUESTION - TITANIUM
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    do you want a durable bike or one that will most likely crack in ~3 seasons? I'd go Ti for ride as well
    That's about the size of it.

    Between the two? Ti... no question.
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  11. #11
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    Between the 2, get the one with the best fit and geometry.
    I will agree that WELL BUILT ti will ride better than WELL BUILT Scandium.
    But a CRAP BUILT either one will ride worse than a WELL BUILT frame of the other material.

  12. #12
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    Voodoo scandium $600
    Lynsky ti $1600

    If money is no object, go Ti, if there is a budget concern, get scandium, if it snaps, get another and you're still ahead of the game.

  13. #13
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    Cool-blue Rhythm If money IS an object, Ti...

    Quote Originally Posted by pbayne
    Voodoo scandium $600
    Lynsky ti $1600

    If money is no object, go Ti, if there is a budget concern, get scandium, if it snaps, get another and you're still ahead of the game.
    The OP states the Moto Fly Ti...
    What's the complete bike cost? $2000 with a Reba Race 100mm, XTR Shifters & Ders, FSA Crankset, XT Cassette, Elixir Brakes w/ Carbon levers? What would the cost of the components be? How much would any frame cost to equal? $600 frame (any material) + $400 Reba Race (conservative, deal or used) + $1000 components (& wheelset) = (lesser build IMO)?

    Break the Moto frame (less likely than a Scandium one), Ti is repairable...or get a Lynskey, Moots, Ericksen, Funk, Skyde, Titus, etc. and put your parts on your new bike...Enjoy!

    Edit: pbayne, not trying to flame you, sorry if it comes across as such...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    The OP states the Moto Fly Ti...
    What's the complete bike cost? $2000 with a Reba Race 100mm, XTR Shifters & Ders, FSA Crankset, XT Cassette, Elixir Brakes w/ Carbon levers? What would the cost of the components be? How much would any frame cost to equal? $600 frame (any material) + $400 Reba Race (conservative, deal or used) + $1000 components (& wheelset) = (lesser build IMO)?

    Break the Moto frame (less likely than a Scandium one), Ti is repairable...or get a Lynskey, Moots, Ericksen, Funk, Skyde, Titus, etc. and put your parts on your new bike...Enjoy!
    that all adds up except when you stop and think that Ti is not a material that can be manufactured cheaply. If you buy that 2k Ti bike you better be willing to write it off.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm Touché...

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    that all adds up except when you stop and think that Ti is not a material that can be manufactured cheaply. If you buy that 2k Ti bike you better be willing to write it off.
    IMO, it's more of the Wally World Way...volume pricing...cheaper imports...
    http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?rootcl=1
    http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?r...rootcl=1&cls=1
    http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?r...rootcl=1&cls=1
    http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?r...rootcl=1&cls=1
    No company one-offs any of those...
    The other bike mentioned is from Taiwan...
    Who knows for sure?
    Do people in China & Taiwan look for products made in their country? Do they complain, "Awe man, this stuffs made in the USA...I was hoping for something local..."

  16. #16
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    Ti

    I just sold my scadnium frame and went to Ti. First Ti bike ever... Wow, the ride is like nothing else, compliant like carbon, flexible and comfortable like steel. I would suggest the Ti even if you have to save your pennies.

    Enjoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    Edit: pbayne, not trying to flame you, sorry if it comes across as such...

    Not at all; you make very good points. This a good discussion. The good news is that no matter what you end up with, it will be a sweet bike. If I had the cash I would probably have a custom ti 29er hardtail. Luckily the Voodoo Aizan is just about spot on for the geometry I want. So I'm just trying to justify my purchase of that frame.

    More pro's for the voodoo scandium specifically: Extra support in the three areas where lightweight frames flex or break (rear disc tab, top tube/seat tube junction, headtube/downtube gusset). Adds marginal weight, but adds lots of strength. Frame also has rear v-brake posts. How many lightweight racing 29'ers have that option.

  18. #18
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    Not too sold on Scandium since what less then 2% of the material is actually Scandium (one of the rarest materials on earth).

    If I had a choice I would be riding a Black Sheep Ti.
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    Yeah, it is kind of funny to call them "scandium" frames since there is hardly any scandium in there.

    By tossing a little bit of scandium in there, the aluminum basically lines up better and is stronger with less material (non tech speak version of scandium use). That way you can use less material. You end of with thinner and lighter tubes. Thus a "scandium enhanced aluminum frame" is lighter and less harsh than "pure aluminum". It add 25%-50% to the cost of an aluminum frame, but the benefit is well worth the extra money. Pretty good weight loss to cost ratio, and as strong as normal lightweight aluminum.

    IMHO scandium has a niche as budget XC racing frames.

  20. #20
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    Goot points here. I went through the same choice last year and ended up Ti. I love it and no look back. Just to add some pointless aspects. Ti looks clean and there is no paint to worry about. If i rub or scratch my frame it can be buffed out. I only have eyes for Ti as far paying for them, well you know.
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  21. #21
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    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.

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    I don't think fundamentals of the frame has change in many years. The materials have advanced and so have the angles but the diamond frame has been around for many a years. I personally do not look at a bike frame as a disposable piece of my bike. I hope to keep the frame for many many years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerwah
    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.
    hard tails don't ever become outdated or obsolete. The number of companies that are putting the effort into making a nice aluminum frame are few and far between as in many cases it's more profitable to make them out of carbon. But a good frame can be made from a many materials all have pros and cons

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerwah
    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.
    I am of the opposite opinion: Why do do you need to throw away a bike frame in a few years? (Insert comment about our disposable society here) Sure, full suspension technology changes every year, bit a well designed hardtail can last a lifetime if made from the right material.

    My philosophy is this: When you first get into biking, buy a new bike every couple of years. At this time, your needs and desires change rapidly. After a number of years, you should have figured out what you like and require. That's when you can invest in a nice custom frame to keep for many years. I did the whole full suspension, upgrade this and that, get new frame, etc. for a while. Then about 5 years ago I decided to give rigid SS a try and fell in love. Started out 26", then 69er, then makeshift 29er, and I knew I had found my bike. I recieved my custom Black Sheep 2 years ago and still love it and can't wait to ride it. It's set up singlespeed, but can run gears or an alfine hub, rigid, but can run a suspension fork. Options are good! I also invested in a Quiring Ti road bike about 4 years ago, also couldn't be happier with it!

    So I guess my suggestion is this: If you know you will want something new every couple of years, aluminum. If you are new to the sport and not sure what you want, aluminum. If you've been around a while and know what you like, titanium.

    Mark

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerwah
    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    I am of the opposite opinion: Why do do you need to throw away a bike frame in a few years? (Insert comment about our disposable society here) Sure, full suspension technology changes every year, bit a well designed hardtail can last a lifetime if made from the right material.

    My philosophy is this: When you first get into biking, buy a new bike every couple of years. At this time, your needs and desires change rapidly. After a number of years, you should have figured out what you like and require. That's when you can invest in a nice custom frame to keep for many years. I did the whole full suspension, upgrade this and that, get new frame, etc. for a while. Then about 5 years ago I decided to give rigid SS a try and fell in love. Started out 26", then 69er, then makeshift 29er, and I knew I had found my bike. I recieved my custom Black Sheep 2 years ago and still love it and can't wait to ride it. It's set up singlespeed, but can run gears or an alfine hub, rigid, but can run a suspension fork. Options are good! I also invested in a Quiring Ti road bike about 4 years ago, also couldn't be happier with it!

    So I guess my suggestion is this: If you know you will want something new every couple of years, aluminum. If you are new to the sport and not sure what you want, aluminum. If you've been around a while and know what you like, titanium.

    Mark
    bikeny is exactly right. I got my Ti road bike in 2002 and still have not found anything better for me. I rode a Roubaix SL3 a couple of weeks ago and it probably climbed a bit better than my Litespeed, but not enough to make me plunk down $4K for the thing when my Ti is as comfortable and as capable. I'm not a racer, so that's not a factor. In the 7 or 8 years I've had my Litespeed, I haven't been tempted by any other road bike.

    For MTB, I got an Al HT to test the waters. I'll get a FS and eventually, maybe replace the Al with a Ti HT for a permanent bike.

    HT design, as noted, doesn't change all that much. Angles and welds, but if you find one that fits in Ti, it'll last a lifetime. No rust, no fatigue, no anything... so why would you replace it? IT won't be outdated and it'll still ride like it's new.

    As for the magical mystery ride... try one. It's certainly not groupthink and if a hack like me can feel the difference (on the road, anyway), then it may well be magic!

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    that all adds up except when you stop and think that Ti is not a material that can be manufactured cheaply. If you buy that 2k Ti bike you better be willing to write it off.
    What do you mean, "willing to write it off"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerwah
    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.
    I'd question at this point whether you've actually ever ridden a ti bike for any significant period of time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    I don't think fundamentals of the frame has change in many years. The materials have advanced and so have the angles but the diamond frame has been around for many a years. I personally do not look at a bike frame as a disposable piece of my bike. I hope to keep the frame for many many years.
    Amen... When you find geometry and fit that works, it's something that you end up desiring in titanium simply for its permanence. Well, at least I do, and it sounds like you do too. Not ironically, more and more of the bikes in my shed are making the move to titanium. In the past year, both my hardtail and 'cross bike have "gone ti" and more magic metal is planned for my quiver in the very near future.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ti or Scandium frame?-lacruz_left.jpg  

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    Not too sold on Scandium since what less then 2% of the material is actually Scandium (one of the rarest materials on earth).

    If I had a choice I would be riding a Black Sheep Ti.
    2% can make all of the difference though. Commercially pure Ti bikes aren't made because it's not a good alloy for the job but adding in 7.5% of other stuff (3/2.5 ti represents the amount of aluminum and vanadium alloying elements) makes all the difference in the world. Alloys are often represented in .5% and to engineers it makes the difference between the material being usable and not or sometimes it's the difference between needing 10# of it instead of #15.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh



    What do you mean, "willing to write it off"?
    if Ti isn't done right it WILL fail and the quality of work on a complete bike with a Ti frame is highly suspect. I can't imagine their warranty support is to great either.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    if Ti isn't done right it WILL fail and the quality of work on a complete bike with a Ti frame is highly suspect. I can't imagine their warranty support is to great either.
    Not sure I agree with this at all. My roadie is a "complete bike" and the quality of work is amazing. Lots of companies make "complete bikes". (Old) Litespeeds, Moots, Lynskeys, for example. You don't need a custom Ti to have an incredible, durable bike!

    And these frames come with lifetime warranties, too!
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    I have a Scandium Niner. Trust me, there is flex in that baby. Unlike any of my Klein's of old. With that being said, Ti is always the way to go if you are willing to pay the extra cost. For me I eBay my old bikes every few years and I like to get new ones. It keeps things fresh in my garage and this 40 year old motivated. So this is why I tend to do Carbon on race bikes and alloy frames on training or SS bikes. But that's just me.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerwah
    Wow I'm blown away by how many people think ti is so great. My vote is for a good aluminum frame. first why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years? Any longer than that it'll be outdated. Secondly a good aluminum frame rides pretty nice these days nothing like the harsh ride of way back whenever. The magical mystery ride of ti sounds like group think banter to me.
    I half agree with you.

    Aluminum is not as harsh as everyone seems to think. I ride aluminum on the road and have no complaints. Aluminum is actaully significantly softer than steel or titanium. If a builder chooses to make large diameter tubes to stiffen it they can, but they don't have to. There are plenty of nice riding aluminum bikes out there.

    I disagree with you when you ask: "why do you need to keep a frame for more than a few years?" My answer is, "why would you NOT buy a bike that's going to last a life time?" My single speed frame was built in 1996 and I still ride it - I ride it a lot. If/when it ever needs to be replaced I'll have another frame build to the same dimensions - although maybe with large wheels. Bike geometry doesn't change over time - regardless of what the guys in the marketing department say.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  33. #33
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    I know there are any number of wicked cool ti frame builders out there that would do an amazing job of building my dream bike but it's just that my dream has kept changing over the years. One year it's a ww ht race bike, the next it's ww fs race bike, then it's a fs do everything bike, ect, ect. I end up buying what I want, riding it till the next inspiration comes along (about every 10 to 18 months), sell what ever frame I'm on, recycle whatever parts are applicable and move on to the next build. So since I don't keep stuff long enough worry about it wearing out or any of that stuff I'd say go with the scandium, but that's just me. I've had steel, scandium, ti, aluminum and carbon bikes and liked them all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Not sure I agree with this at all. My roadie is a "complete bike" and the quality of work is amazing. Lots of companies make "complete bikes". (Old) Litespeeds, Moots, Lynskeys, for example. You don't need a custom Ti to have an incredible, durable bike!

    And these frames come with lifetime warranties, too!
    somebody had mentioned said bike for 2k not a frame for 2k. Everybody you mentioned makes great frames all of them better than some of the one man operations out there. But they don't sell a complete bike for 2k like the chinese source linked above can. I think almost any american or Euro made Ti frame is a pretty good bet, but when you sell a Ti frame for less than half of what the competition does you are forced to cut corners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psuambassador
    I am in the hunt for a good quality, relatively inexpensive ti frame like the Moto fly team ti 29er frame. I saw a good deal on a voodoo scandium frame online the other day and it got me thinking about whether that's the better choice. Assume both come in at the same price, which do you think is the better bet? Thanks.

    P.S. Looking at the combination of strength + low weight + cost
    if they are around the same price, this is the dumbest question in the history of the 29er forum. congrats!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    somebody had mentioned said bike for 2k not a frame for 2k. Everybody you mentioned makes great frames all of them better than some of the one man operations out there. But they don't sell a complete bike for 2k like the chinese source linked above can. I think almost any american or Euro made Ti frame is a pretty good bet, but when you sell a Ti frame for less than half of what the competition does you are forced to cut corners.
    I kind of agree with you, and am somewhat suspicious of the Chinese Ti frames only because I know Ti is demanding to work with. But all things being the same, skill of the welder tube quality, etc. you still are going to wind up with a much lower cost product coming out of China simply because the labor rate is so low and they are building these at an almost industrial level. Think about Asian production steel versus US custom. How much is a Soma Groove, $400.00? How much is a Walt Works, $1200.00? Granted there are some differences in tubing, but a lot of that price difference comes from the difference in production cost.
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  37. #37
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    I have an Air 9 and find that it makes my teeth chatter and back scream. Although the geometry is spot on, it is just not as comfortable as a Lynskey Ridgeline 29er, which is a copy of Niner with straight gauge Ti. Ti is not full suspension or even softtail performance. A hardtail is a hardtail, but Ti does dampen the vibration and absorb some shock.
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    Team Marin Ti HT

    I rode my Team Marin Ti for 10 years until I went FS (Top Fuel SSL).
    It does give a MUCH softer feel (compared to my CAAD4)... but it is perfect for longer rides.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ti or Scandium frame?-marin-team-ti.jpg  

    Ti or Scandium frame?-front-ent.jpg  


  39. #39
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    why not steel? :-)
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    I owned a On-One 29er Scandal for about 8months before I found a good deal for the Ti Inbred 29er frame. I ported all the components over, so only the frame (and shifter cables) were different.

    The ti frame gives a far more compliant feel vertically when I go over rough terrain. It's not like the "feels like there's 20mm of travel in the back" effect, but I can feel that the ti frame isn't as harsh over the same terrain I regularly ride. However, the front triangle also feels slightly flexier when powering out of the saddle too.

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    Steel is the ONLY material that can be fixed by Bubba at the
    service station if it cracks on an excursion.
    Ti needs a vacuum and aluminum needs to be baked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbayne
    In my experience the scandium ride is not as "harsh" as a standard aluminum frame. The tubing is thinner so there is some nice flex. Scandium is not as soft as ti, which can be seen as an advantage or a disadvantage. I also think that the "harshness" is the desired characteristic of a hardtail. It could also be called the quickness, or stiffness. Its great for racing. Some things that will take the bite out of a hardtail are nice fat tires, a carbon post, and carbon bars.
    To me this the best response. It really a very personal choice. One man's compliant is another's soft. I own a Moto Ti Fly. Perfect bike for me...I bought the frameset for $1100 incl Reba Race shock. But there is another owner that has been vocal that he feels the Moto frame has softish rear stays and hence not the best energy transfer. So a young strong racer who prefers stiff may want Scandium for racing and prefer it to the Moto Fly.
    I left Al to go Ti. You can't beat the Moto Fly frame if you back out the fork = $650 or so...an unbeatable value really....but straight up some may prefer a stiffer frame. Me, I like a compliant hardtail because I can ride longer and end up less beat up.
    I think for older riders in particular like myself Ti is the way to go. If you are young strong and fast, a stiff Scandium frame will likely do nicely.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR
    Between the 2, get the one with the best fit and geometry.
    I will agree that WELL BUILT ti will ride better than WELL BUILT Scandium.
    But a CRAP BUILT either one will ride worse than a WELL BUILT frame of the other material.

    +1

  44. #44
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    I just want to come to the defense of the BD Moto Fly Ti as I recently bought one and read a ton of rather ignorant and dismissive comments regarding their bikes.
    You can have a good ti frame on a $2000 bike by doing it the way Bikesdirect does it.
    They have a manufacturer in Taiwan(not mainland China which is where most pricey carbon is made for super cheap by the way), and use quility tubing. Taiwan has an excellent reputation for quality manufacture and is where most big name bikes are made. Bikesdirect have there bikes produced in large batches and are able to purchase the rest of the required parts at discounts through large numbers and finally they sell direct to the customer so no retail mark up which I'm sure accounts for a huge percentage of a bike purchase. I mean seriously, if your Iphone was made in the good ol' US of A what would you be paying? I'd bet $2000. So where are all the folks complaining about their smartphones not being produced here and therefore the quality must be suspect?
    Would I like to buy a Lynsky or even a Moots sure but that is impossible. However, I have complete faith that the Taiwanese can make great quality ti frames for much less than here. I don't see too many folks questioning their high end carbon frames that were made in dirt cheap wage land China. The welds look good to me but that still doesn't mean much structurally. I haven;t read any more negative review regarding these bikes than any other maker, have you? AS a matter of fact, those who actually own these bikes have given them extremely good reviews and believe me I looked because I kept reading all this negative BS by people who don't own one and cannot understand that it is possible to get a great deal if you use a certain business model. Some folks remove there Motobecane decals when they get their bikes because of this well I am proud to get a great, well built, well speced, bike for a fraction of retail. What is there to be ashamed of?
    Last edited by xmessenger; 01-28-2015 at 03:11 AM. Reason: update

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmessenger View Post
    I just want to come to the defense of the BD Moto Fly Ti
    Other than your personal experience with the bike you purchased you seam to have little to no idea what you're talking about in regards to anything having to do with overseas manufacturing, you have however found the perfect place to talk about things you don't know about so please do carry on.
    If I had a black light this place would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.

  46. #46
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    You bumped a old thread to beat a dead horse. Just ride it and enjoy the bike.

    Not everybody will agree with the value of the Moto Ti.

    -another Fly29Ti owner

  47. #47
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    Chemistry

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Both hardtails, right? I'd go ti. Scandium is just an alloy of aluminum, with the same overly harsh ride in a hardtail application.
    http://sciencenotes.org/wp-content/u...dicTableBW.png

    Scandium is not an alloy of Aluminum. Element 13 vs 21.

  48. #48
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    I've owned a Jamis Dragon 29 in Reynolds 853 steel.
    I've owned a Salsa Selma 29 (Scandium with carbon seat stays).
    I own a Misfit diSSent AL
    I own a Soul Cycles Dillinger Gen3 (7005)
    I own a Lynskey Pro 29 SL

    I've spent time in an Indy Fab Steel Deluxe (True Temper OX Platinum) and
    a Niner One9 (Scandium), EMD (aluminum), and SIR9 (Reynolds 853 Steel)
    Niner Air9 Carbon
    Specialized Stumpjumper S-Works HT 29
    Scott Scale 29
    Santa Cruz Highball Carbon
    Santa Cruz Highball AL
    I have never rode a custom aluminum frame.

    I believe there are two factors involved:
    1) Who is building it: A custom builder is going to choose the tube profiles based on the rider and a dialed geometry. It makes a big difference.
    2) What material it is built out of. Generally speaking, I believe Ti and Steel ride the best. I have never

    I can tell you that there was significant difference from an IF True Temper frame an both the SIR9 and Dragon 853. There a different ride quality from the Salsa Scandium to the Dillinger. However the Dillinger and the Misfit kind of rides the same and the Dragon steel rides more like the Salsa Scandium (to me)

    I didn't particularly much like the ride quality of the SIR9 or the EMD, but the One9 felt more in place for what it was trying to accomplish....

    That said, only the Indy Fab steel frame felt good, but still a significant margin difference from the Lynskey Ti. It was a different animal with a more springy acceleration feel, and when you lean the bike over through rough corners there is definitely more compliance/float over rough stuff despite having the shortest chainstays.

    Of other options, the One9 and Tallboy AL did accelerate the best of aluminums and if I were doing short track racing...probably the best bang for the buck. However, I didn't care much for the geometry on the One9. The Dillinger felt the "softest" for aluminum but the Misfit wasn't far away. The EMD felt like the Highball AL but with a much better geometry.

    I believe for the money, carbon isn't worth it unless you're racing short track and want an ultra light and stiff hardtail. To me, carbon is only marginally more compliant than aluminum, and there's a distance between that and steel and/or titanium. Of all the carbon brands, I still have to side with the Highball..just a better geometry which translated to a better trail feel, but the frame was still very still and you could feel it on the trail.

    If you can put money down on a Ti frame from a reputable builder, chances are you'll come away with the best bike (in that category) that you've ever ridden, and you WILL be blown away! Custom steel is nice too, but really with steel you're going to be getting very close to titanium in most cases. For hardtails, I believe titanium is the best material out there. Durable, light, great acceleration, vertical compliance..it just straight performs and the longer the ride is, the more you'll appreciate it!

    I don't know what you can take from all this, and I am sure there are going to be some that disagree with my assessments, but I also think component selection, rim width and tire size/pressure has a significant impact as well. Only time in the saddle will tell you if one is better than the other for you.
    SC Tallboy C
    Intense Spider 29 C
    Cervelo S2
    Trek Boone 5 Disc
    Spech Tricross Expert
    Raleigh RX 1.0

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by marktbaillie View Post
    http://sciencenotes.org/wp-content/u...dicTableBW.png

    Scandium is not an alloy of Aluminum. Element 13 vs 21.
    Most are aware that Scandium is an element. Likely some marketing guru decided to call the alloy "scandium", and it stuck within the bike industry.

    From the Kona website (KONA BIKES | TECH | MATERIALS)

    KONA RACE LIGHT SCANDIUM 69

    Known to have one of the highest strength-to-weight ratios for any alloy in the world, Scandium has been a hallmark in our bikes since we first introduced the material in 2000. Since that time, it’s found a home in light and quick 29-inch hardtails, savvy all-mountain rides and recreationally oriented, well-priced mountain bikes.

    For 2015, our commitment to the material grows significantly, with new Kona Race Light Scandium 69 models showing up throughout our growing range of Road bikes, from the new Road endurance Esattos to the base model Zone, through to the Kahuna Deluxe, Kula and Cinder Cone.

    Introduced to our line in 2012, Race Light Scandium 69 comes with yield strengths that are about 40 percent higher than previous Scandium alloys. The result is the strongest per-weight aluminum alloy ever made. Because of its fibrous or fine-grained structure, Race Light Scandium 69 alloy reveals a unique combination of corrosion resistance and excellent fatigue strength.

    WHAT IS SCANDIUM?
    Scandium is the eighth most abundant rare element on earth. A silvery white metal extracted from the earth’s crust, Scandium is a potent grain refiner that, when added to aluminum alloys, elevates the strength and durability of the material by 50 percent. It does this by “straightening” out the grains of the alloy, making the metal less susceptible to failure. It’s this strength and durability that makes Scandium alloys an attractive material when it comes to manufacturing bicycles. Strength is so much higher—Scandium alloy is twice as strong as 6061 or 7005 aluminum—that we’re able to use much less material to achieve riding characteristics similar to steel. With Scandium we’re able to shave weight from our aluminum frames by 10 to 15 percent.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by marktbaillie View Post
    Scandium is not an alloy of Aluminum.
    Scandium frames are.

    Are you also going to point out that "titanium" bike frames are not titanium but an alloy of titanium, Capt. Obvious?

    OP- Ti... all day, every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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