• 02-02-2011
    fatboy66
    ti handlebar - does it make sense - ?
    Hello,

    I am looking for another handlebar for my ti hardtail. At the moment i am riding with an easton carbon low riser 685 mm with 9 degrees backsweep.

    Does a ti handlebar from moots or Kent Eriksen make sense? I am looking for a 28" with a sweep of 12 degrees. Is ti comfy, reliable and stiff enough as handlebar? The other bar that has my interest is the syntace carbon or the 7075 aluminium low riser bar with 12 degrees backsweep.

    Please advice the pro's en con's .

    Thanks.
  • 02-02-2011
    dvo1
    No they don't.

    As soon as you get one, you will be wanted a Ti. bar on all your bikes.
  • 02-02-2011
    ~martini~
    ya. Like dvo said, if you put one on one bike, you'll want to put 'em on all. They're really nice. I've hoarded a few bars my self.
  • 02-02-2011
    CYCLEJCE
    I have an old Ti (ti-tec) bar on my old rigid Breezer. It was/is awesome for absorbing shock and trail chatter. Not so fun on long steep climbs as I have bar ends (still...) and the extra leverage makes the flex obvious.
  • 02-02-2011
    JSD303
    I've got a BlackSheep bar and love it. No cons...
  • 02-02-2011
    netanimic
    This is the best:
  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    I have a Ti Jones bar. Here are my pro's and cons specifically about the material... not the design.

    Pros:
    ** It does absorb some shock.
    ** It matched my frame.
    ** It's made in the USA.

    Cons:
    ** aluminum models are lighter weight
    ** aluminum models are 3x cheaper
    ** aluminum models provide the same steering as Ti... some might even say aluminum is better.

    I bought it for the design, not the material. I don't see any advantage to Ti in handlebars other than for the material advantage for the designer. And if you look at Jones... he is using aluminum, steel and Ti on his own rides now. And... he can't keep the aluminum Loop bars in stock.

    So... if there is a handlebar **design** you like... buy it for the design, not the material.

    The "better" idea: If Ti flexes (my bar does), and aluminum doesn't (my AL bars don't flex as much as Ti), then logically, aluminum will give you more precise steering on the trail... all other things being equal, but rarely are. That is the alternative argument.
  • 02-02-2011
    itchyjesus
    I have a Seven ti bar on 29er. It is about 5 years old now. When I bought it, you could any size and bend you wanted and you could get it stiffer or softer if you wanted. I am not sure what there bar program is like now but I really like it. The only downside is now I run much wider bars on the rest of my bikes and I wish my Ti bar was about 2 inches wider.
  • 02-02-2011
    foxtrot
    I've been thinking about getting pretty much the same exact ti bar as the original post. I think i would absorb shock better than my current carbon bar on my rigid steel 29, and I want a longer bar. At 28" and 12 degree sweep, it seems that the price of ti bar (i.e. Seven) is comparable to similar length/sweep carbon bars (Niner, Carnegie, Syntace, et. al) come to mind. So, it seems to me that ti would be the way to go.

    On the other hand, as alluded to in a previous post, the flex of the bar on climbs does worry me a bit. Can others comment on this?
  • 02-02-2011
    Billy B
    1 Attachment(s)
    Long ago I had a Litespeed Ti bar. One crash too many and it was wasted. Now that I'm a little older and need some more "comfort" ,I had Eriksen bend me one up for Christmas. It mimics a Ritchey WCS riser bar,but its flat:thumbsup:
  • 02-02-2011
    bigdrunk
    I have two Seven Ti bars. 705mm and 15d bend. They will do whatever you want length wise but do have limitations on how much bend they will do.

    They are awesome for only $150......
  • 02-02-2011
    dvo1
    Seven must have the most expensive electricity in the world.

    $150 for a piece of tubing with two bends.

    $455 for three pieces of tubing welded together.

    I like the look of the groovy bar, wish someone local had one so I could see it in my own hands. Black sheep will be building my next bar most likely.
  • 02-02-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvo1
    Seven must have the most expensive electricity in the world.

    $150 for a piece of tubing with two bends.

    $455 for three pieces of tubing welded together.

    I like the look of the groovy bar, wish someone local had one so I could see it in my own hands. Black sheep will be building my next bar most likely.

    If you think Seven is overpriced (they aren't as far as Ti goes), why go with Black Sheep? They charge $200 for a similar piece of tubing with two bends
  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    I have two Seven Ti bars. 705mm and 15d bend. They will do whatever you want length wise but do have limitations on how much bend they will do.

    They are awesome for only $150......

    "Only $150".... I think Sette aluminum bars are $10. Salsa MotoAce are $35. And most carbon bars are under $100.

    This goes to my point about titanium. The cost may be worth it in some applications (frames are a good example)... but handlebars? I just don't see the need.
  • 02-02-2011
    bigdrunk
    Good point, I have always wondered what the materials cost is on bar. I am not discounting companies labor effort, just curious about what Ti costs now days.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvo1
    Seven must have the most expensive electricity in the world.

    $150 for a piece of tubing with two bends.

    $455 for three pieces of tubing welded together.

    I like the look of the groovy bar, wish someone local had one so I could see it in my own hands. Black sheep will be building my next bar most likely.

  • 02-02-2011
    dvo1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by boomn
    If you think Seven is overpriced (they aren't as far as Ti goes), why go with Black Sheep? They charge $200 for a similar piece of tubing with two bends

    Cause I don't want a flat straight bar, I want a three piece with more pull back.

    Seven wants $495 for a stem, $445 for the Tiberius bar, I just find there prices high.
  • 02-02-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvo1
    Cause I don't want a flat straight bar, I want a three piece with more pull back.

    Seven wants $495 for a stem, $445 for the Tiberius bar, I just find there prices high.

    Ah, I see. Makes more sense when you explain what you mean;)
  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    I know Ti Cycles out of Washington will do custom swept flat bars for $120 @ 24".

    Cost... there are a number of places online you can get source cost on 22.2 titanium tube. It's marked up quite a lot. I can tell you a 31.6 x 650mm tube runs $55-$70 which is common seat tube size. 22.2mm x 450mm runs around $30... that is common MTB handlebar size (7/8").

    So I have to think raw material for 700mm is about $50. In bulk it's probably cheaper. Titanium can be worked at room temp on the same equipment as steel. Just takes more time. Can't just bend it and expect it to stay. So there is "wait" time built in there. I'm guessing no more than 1hr of labor. Not sure what they are paying folks to bend tubes, but the guys in our metal shop vary from $10/hr to $22/hr. So now there is a max of $72 in it. Add a $5 shim... $77 total.

    Retail: $150
    Approx max cost: $77
    Approx profit: $73
    Profit Margin: 94.8%

    Over-priced is in the eyes of the beholder... and I'd say that is over priced.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    Good point, I have always wondered what the materials cost is on bar. I am not discounting companies labor effort, just curious about what Ti costs now days.

  • 02-02-2011
    dvo1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    Good point, I have always wondered what the materials cost is on bar. I am not discounting companies labor effort, just curious about what Ti costs now days.

    $1.50-$2 per inch of .875" Titanium tubing.
  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by itchyjesus
    I have a Seven ti bar on 29er. It is about 5 years old now. When I bought it, you could any size and bend you wanted and you could get it stiffer or softer if you wanted. I am not sure what there bar program is like now but I really like it. The only downside is now I run much wider bars on the rest of my bikes and I wish my Ti bar was about 2 inches wider.

    I'm kind of going the opposite way now... I've been running wide bars for a while... I'm switching back to 23-24" in the spring. I see the benefit ofwide bars, but I also see the downside. I'm going to give a narrow bar a try again... we'll see..?
  • 02-02-2011
    frorider
    i have a custom Ti flat bar around 700 mm that works great on my fully rigid bike...the flex of the bar is noticeable but in a good way. Helps make the rigid bike more comfy.

    tried it on my 100 mm thru axle front fork / hardtail bike, and the bar felt too flexy in that context.

    most somewhat affordable Ti bars use a 25.4 mm diameter, and tend to be pretty flexy in the wider widths. over time i've pretty much stopped using any bar narrower than 700 mm, so for me Ti bars are OK but only on certain bikes. to put it another way: if I were upgrading the Alu bar on my lightweight Ti hardtail, I'd spend 150 bucks on the new Niner flat bar before I'd spend that same amt on a wide Ti bar.

    But on a Ti fully rigid SS, I would probably go for a blacksheep Ti bar. Partly for aesthetic reasons, partly for the sweet flex.
  • 02-02-2011
    @dam
    So, we go to oversize-bar standards for more stiffness, and then to titanium for more flex. Seems like spinning our wheels. There are too many new, unecessary standards.

    Also, unless you're riding a full-rigid bike, compliance in things like the stem, bars, and seatpost are way overblown and pale in comparisson to what you're getting from tires, suspension and even your grips and seat padding.
  • 02-02-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by @dam
    So, we go to oversize-bar standards for more stiffness, and then to titanium for more flex. Seems like spinning our wheels. There are too many new, unecessary standards.

    All the people who went to OS bars for stiffness aren't necessarily the same people looking for comfy ti bars.

    And if you're saying OS bars are unnecessary, we can take this outside where I have a huge crowd willing to fight you over that statement :D
  • 02-02-2011
    bigdrunk
    That is a very valid way to look at it. $10 vs $150 calls a lot into question. That is a big price difference. A some of that price difference can be justified, how much $$ depends on the individual. For me, the following things were worth spending a little (ok, a lot) extra:

    Custom Made - I have been riding long enough to know what I like. Sure you can find off the shelf bars that get you very close but custom gets you exact.

    Comfort - My Ti bars have noticable give. Scary at first. I still have my teeth, so far so good. The amount of flex provides a good deal more comfort and a ridgid bike. After riding Ti bars, I am in no hurry to go back to aluminum. Coupled with a Ti fork and a 2.4" RR, my bike is unmatched by other ridgid bikes for its compliancy.

    Resale - Used Ti bars always seem to sell for waaay to much money on eBay.

    For me, a bike is the sum of all parts and the Ti bars contribute in a very positive manner towards the ride of my bike.

    On the other hand.......

    Ti bars on a suspended front end are purely for taking your bike to the next level of bling. I am guilty here. Unless some crazy custom size is needed, I do not see any gain in performance on a suspended bike.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OmaHaq
    "Only $150".... I think Sette aluminum bars are $10. Salsa MotoAce are $35. And most carbon bars are under $100.

    This goes to my point about titanium. The cost may be worth it in some applications (frames are a good example)... but handlebars? I just don't see the need.

  • 02-02-2011
    misterdangerpants
    Pros: I'm very specific as to what I want for the bend, sweep and rise so a custom bar makes sense for me. In addition, I've been using titanium bars since the early 1990s and like the feel. Finally, I prefer to support smaller framebuilders and have ordered from James at Black Sheep for my last 3 builds (stem, handlebars and seat post for each project). Seven is local to me and I'd love to support them, but agree their prices are inflated a tad and I really honestly don't much like their designs all that much. I like the simplicity of Black Sheep.





    Cons: Honestly, I can't think of any. I gather price could be one. If you don't like waiting, that could be another.
  • 02-02-2011
    edouble
    I have 2 titec hellbent ti bars...
    1 flat and one low riser. Got them both really cheap off of ebay years ago. Their 25in wide. I ride these and two 26in wide Salsa pro moto carbon flat bars. Both carbon and ti are significantly more comfy than any alu bar I have tried. I will never go back to alu. Also I don't notice any significant loss of steering precision either and I am much bigger than most guys on this forum.
    Than being said, I do ride ht's on xc and woodsy singletrack with no really big ups or downs. So others may be putting their bars through a lot more challenging situations than I am putting mine..
  • 02-02-2011
    DFYFZX
    I understand the OP wants a specific bend/rise but for the most part, isn't carbon cheaper and just as comfortable as ti for handlebars? I can see looks being a disadvantage because most ti bars end up being on a fancy ti frame so they go better with the theme of the bike but from a sheer performance/cost/comfort comparison, isn't carbon the winner?
  • 02-02-2011
    cibob113
    How about Steel
    I read through this thread and saw opinions about Alum, Ti and Carbon, but not Steel. I want to try the design of the Groovy Luv Handles, but was thinking of trying the steel version (85 vs 250 bucks) to see if I liked the hand position (carpal tunnel problems). Going on a front suspension ti 29er. Anybody ever use a steel bar?
  • 02-02-2011
    pimpbot
    I dunno...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OmaHaq
    I know Ti Cycles out of Washington will do custom swept flat bars for $120 @ 24".

    Cost... there are a number of places online you can get source cost on 22.2 titanium tube. It's marked up quite a lot. I can tell you a 31.6 x 650mm tube runs $55-$70 which is common seat tube size. 22.2mm x 450mm runs around $30... that is common MTB handlebar size (7/8").

    So I have to think raw material for 700mm is about $50. In bulk it's probably cheaper. Titanium can be worked at room temp on the same equipment as steel. Just takes more time. Can't just bend it and expect it to stay. So there is "wait" time built in there. I'm guessing no more than 1hr of labor. Not sure what they are paying folks to bend tubes, but the guys in our metal shop vary from $10/hr to $22/hr. So now there is a max of $72 in it. Add a $5 shim... $77 total.

    Retail: $150
    Approx max cost: $77
    Approx profit: $73
    Profit Margin: 94.8%

    Over-priced is in the eyes of the beholder... and I'd say that is over priced.

    I'm sure it's not like anybody at Blacksheep is rolling a new AMG Benz back to their 5000 square foot house in an exclusive gated community, and lighting their cigars with $100 bills.

    50 points markup from a manufacturer is about average. My wife has about 50 points markup to her wholesale price on her towels, and we aren't exactly rolling in cash. Heck, she still has a part time job outside of her towel biz.
  • 02-02-2011
    dvo1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cibob113
    I read through this thread and saw opinions about Alum, Ti and Carbon, but not Steel. I want to try the design of the Groovy Luv Handles, but was thinking of trying the steel version (85 vs 250 bucks) to see if I liked the hand position (carpal tunnel problems). Going on a front suspension ti 29er. Anybody ever use a steel bar?

    Honestly the steel bar would most likely be perfect on a suspension fork. I talked myself into the first ti. bar I got, now I want just one more.

    Actually I have had two ti. bars, but a Titec 118 from 1995 doesn't seem to really count.
  • 02-02-2011
    rojogonzo
    3 bikes 3 bars
    bonty alu bigsweep on hardtail
    easton carbon low rise on hardtail

    blacksheep ti on rigid, had the BS bent similar to the easton and with mustache ends, I love it. It may flex a little on the climbs but not something i've given a great deal of thought to as it climbs so well comparatively. It's my keeper
  • 02-02-2011
    nitrousjunky
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by @dam
    So, we go to oversize-bar standards for more stiffness, and then to titanium for more flex. Seems like spinning our wheels.

    Your forgetting one other IMPORTANT advantage IMO to oversize bars. More clamp area, so it's less likely to rotate in the stem on a rigid bike.
  • 02-02-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cibob113
    I read through this thread and saw opinions about Alum, Ti and Carbon, but not Steel. I want to try the design of the Groovy Luv Handles, but was thinking of trying the steel version (85 vs 250 bucks) to see if I liked the hand position (carpal tunnel problems). Going on a front suspension ti 29er. Anybody ever use a steel bar?

    Like any metal, the feel will depends on the tubing used. For this particular bar, the builder states on his site (and has repeated on this forum) that he built the steel version to be quite stiff and it is intended for bikes with suspension forks.
  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    No denying the resale end of your comment... that is 100% fact as far as I am concerned. Put "titanium" in the title of an Ebay ad and yea, a person will definetely get some bidders. Rightfully so... second-hand Ti parts are the cheapest way to go.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    That is a very valid way to look at it. $10 vs $150 calls a lot into question. That is a big price difference. A some of that price difference can be justified, how much $$ depends on the individual. For me, the following things were worth spending a little (ok, a lot) extra:

    Custom Made - I have been riding long enough to know what I like. Sure you can find off the shelf bars that get you very close but custom gets you exact.

    Comfort - My Ti bars have noticable give. Scary at first. I still have my teeth, so far so good. The amount of flex provides a good deal more comfort and a ridgid bike. After riding Ti bars, I am in no hurry to go back to aluminum. Coupled with a Ti fork and a 2.4" RR, my bike is unmatched by other ridgid bikes for its compliancy.

    Resale - Used Ti bars always seem to sell for waaay to much money on eBay.

    For me, a bike is the sum of all parts and the Ti bars contribute in a very positive manner towards the ride of my bike.

    On the other hand.......

    Ti bars on a suspended front end are purely for taking your bike to the next level of bling. I am guilty here. Unless some crazy custom size is needed, I do not see any gain in performance on a suspended bike.

  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    We are in the manufacturing biz. 2010, adjusted profit margin was a 49.7% average for us. That's with aggressive pricing due to the very poor economic conditions in our sector over the past 24 months. I can say that we have a product line / project service that regularly goes above the 140% profit range. But we also have had $300K projects we took a total bath on... - 25% some times. Cost of getting business in the door and keeping the shop running.

    I still think for a bent piece of tube, 94.5% is really high. And that is the minimum profit margin in my above example. I am guessing that quantity purchasing of material will drive down material cost. And that the "tube-bender" guy doesn't make $22/hr. It may even be automated since it is a standardized "make to stock" item, which takes almost all human cost out of the mfg process. Just maintenance to keep the line running, which is usually outsourced in an annual contract manner.

    Remember... a plain, flat bar is just a bent piece of pre-drawn / forged tube. Nothing more. And yea... I'd bet someone is driving an expensive vehicle of sorts. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I'm sure it's not like anybody at Blacksheep is rolling a new AMG Benz back to their 5000 square foot house in an exclusive gated community, and lighting their cigars with $100 bills.

    50 points markup from a manufacturer is about average. My wife has about 50 points markup to her wholesale price on her towels, and we aren't exactly rolling in cash. Heck, she still has a part time job outside of her towel biz.

  • 02-02-2011
    OmaHaq
    Spinning our wheels... here is an interesting example. I love Jeff Jones and his design ideas, but he has a doozy.

    Put a huge tire on the front of a rigid bike, on a titanium frame, to simulate / create a version of suspension. Then top it off with a generally flexy (at least mine is) titanium bar. That idea confuses the he!! out of me. But whatever works for his customers.

    I subscribe more to what Walt @ Waltworks has stated numberous times. Tire pressure and suspension adds more comfort than any bar or frame material will. Heck, I am talking myself out of my titanium frame right now... what the heck is wrong with me? haahaha.
  • 02-02-2011
    bikeindustrydude
    oh the stupid, it hurts
  • 02-02-2011
    bikeindustrydude
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OmaHaq

    So I have to think raw material for 700mm is about $50. In bulk it's probably cheaper. Titanium can be worked at room temp on the same equipment as steel. Just takes more time. Can't just bend it and expect it to stay. So there is "wait" time built in there. I'm guessing no more than 1hr of labor. Not sure what they are paying folks to bend tubes, but the guys in our metal shop vary from $10/hr to $22/hr. So now there is a max of $72 in it. Add a $5 shim... $77 total.

    Retail: $150
    Approx max cost: $77
    Approx profit: $73
    Profit Margin: 94.8%

    Over-priced is in the eyes of the beholder... and I'd say that is over priced.

    thats not how you figure margin, your example is actually a 48.6% margin.

    you also forgot shipping, tool amortization, and in your example, sales staff. if you want to distribute through a bike shop, you have to start with something that costs $20, add 15% in amort costs for $23. Then, you gotta make a 40% margin to keep in place so sell it to the shop for $38, and then a shop has to make 50% margin to make any money, so the end product is $76. Now, back to the start, if it cost $20 to make, there is labor in there, so material costs are probably around the $5-$7 mark.

    i know you are all entirely baffled and think its a rip off, but just to keep people employed at middle class levels, $7 of material has to be sold for $75 at retail. if you think that sucks, shut up and make it yourself.
  • 02-02-2011
    D_Man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bikeindustrydude

    i know you are all entirely baffled and think its a rip off, but just to keep people employed at middle class levels, $7 of material has to be sold for $75 at retail. if you think that sucks, shut up and make it yourself.

    We can all shut up, but sadly, that's why Americans don't make anything anymore and most of it comes from China. Not sure who will be left to buy it all in 20 years though.
  • 02-02-2011
    251
    I had a Titec Ti bar on my Eriksen, but it only lasted a couple months before I tore one of the ends off at Moab. Titec didn't respond to my warranty inquires, but I can't really fault them since I damaged the bar in a crash. I replaced the Titec with a new (and wider) Eriksen bar, and it has been working well for the past few years and has held up admirably in a few crashes.

    FWIW, I wouldn't put an aluminum or carbon bar on a Ti bike. I have aluminum bars on my steel and carbon bikes and they're all fine.

    Sorry, no photos of Ti handlebars, they aren't very photogenic.
  • 02-03-2011
    bigdrunk
    If Eriksen showed that he sold bars on his website I would have bought my last one from him. Stupid me, I should have figured if he makes frames and seatposts, he could probably make a handlebar.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 251
    I had a Titec Ti bar on my Eriksen, but it only lasted a couple months before I tore one of the ends off at Moab. Titec didn't respond to my warranty inquires, but I can't really fault them since I damaged the bar in a crash. I replaced the Titec with a new (and wider) Eriksen bar, and it has been working well for the past few years and has held up admirably in a few crashes.

    FWIW, I wouldn't put an aluminum or carbon bar on a Ti bike. I have aluminum bars on my steel and carbon bikes and they're all fine.

    Sorry, no photos of Ti handlebars, they aren't very photogenic.

  • 02-03-2011
    251
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    If Eriksen showed that he sold bars on his website I would have bought my last one from him. Stupid me, I should have figured if he makes frames and seatposts, he could probably make a handlebar.

    I bought a frame and seatpost from him and it didn't occur to me either. I stopped by his shop with my recently damaged Titec bar, and he offered to make a new bar for me. Couldn't turn that one down! :thumbsup:

    While I was there I saw this:


    Oh, and here's a shot of my bar being made. This is super secret lemon pledge treatment:
  • 02-03-2011
    craigsj
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OmaHaq
    No denying the resale end of your comment... that is 100% fact as far as I am concerned. Put "titanium" in the title of an Ebay ad and yea, a person will definetely get some bidders. Rightfully so... second-hand Ti parts are the cheapest way to go.

    If second hand ti parts are the cheapest way to go, then resale value is clearly not as good as it's made out to be. It's not nearly so impressive that a used Ti bar gets bidders or fetches a 100 bucks when you realizeit costs 400 to have made. Resale value is about holding a high percentage of original price, not about attracting eBay bidders.

    Keep in mind also that he was claiming great resale value while also claiming great value in full custom. This is an oxymoron. A full custom part, by its very nature, has a limited market for resale. You can either get good value out of custom or good value out of resale, you don't get both. Odds are you get neither.
  • 02-03-2011
    laffeaux
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OmaHaq
    So I have to think raw material for 700mm is about $50. In bulk it's probably cheaper. Titanium can be worked at room temp on the same equipment as steel. Just takes more time. Can't just bend it and expect it to stay. So there is "wait" time built in there. I'm guessing no more than 1hr of labor. Not sure what they are paying folks to bend tubes, but the guys in our metal shop vary from $10/hr to $22/hr. So now there is a max of $72 in it. Add a $5 shim... $77 total.

    Retail: $150
    Approx max cost: $77
    Approx profit: $73
    Profit Margin: 94.8%

    Over-priced is in the eyes of the beholder... and I'd say that is over priced.

    I think that you missed a lot of the costs. Material is only a portion of.

    How much did the machine to bend the bar cost? Is it paid for? Does it need maintenance?
    Was there welding involved? How much is filler rod and gas going for these days?
    Is this work being done in a shop, if so what's rent cost? If the building is owed, what are the maintenance costs?
    Does the building need to heated or cooled? That's not free.
    Does the welder need health care, if so that's a big cost?
    Does the welder need insurance in case he's sued by a buyer? That costs money too.
    And what about pay role taxes that the government wants? That needs to be factored in.
    And what about advertising costs... the cost of a web site... the cost of design software/// the cost of billing software?
    And what about labor costs? There's time spent setting up machines to do this work.
    And for small builders, time spent making bars, is time not spent making frames. There's an opportunity cost associated with everything.

    Materials are a portion of the costs, but that is only a portion of the cost of doing business. The actual "profit" is nowhere near the 94% that you list. If it were a software company would always be profitable, because their "raw material cost" is $0 - correct? Why does software cost money, there's no cost at all to "building" it. ;)
  • 02-04-2011
    sparky909
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by laffeaux
    I think that you missed a lot of the costs. Material is only a portion of.

    How much did the machine to bend the bar cost? Is it paid for? Does it need maintenance?
    Was there welding involved? How much is filler rod and gas going for these days?
    Is this work being done in a shop, if so what's rent cost? If the building is owed, what are the maintenance costs?
    Does the building need to heated or cooled? That's not free.
    Does the welder need health care, if so that's a big cost?
    Does the welder need insurance in case he's sued by a buyer? That costs money too.
    And what about pay role taxes that the government wants? That needs to be factored in.
    And what about advertising costs... the cost of a web site... the cost of design software/// the cost of billing software?
    And what about labor costs? There's time spent setting up machines to do this work.
    And for small builders, time spent making bars, is time not spent making frames. There's an opportunity cost associated with everything.

    Materials are a portion of the costs, but that is only a portion of the cost of doing business. The actual "profit" is nowhere near the 94% that you list. If it were a software company would always be profitable, because their "raw material cost" is $0 - correct? Why does software cost money, there's no cost at all to "building" it. ;)


    Finally someone who gets what it is like to own a business!!
  • 02-04-2011
    mtb_Frk
    251 I would love to see some pictures of your Eriksen bars.
  • 02-05-2011
    njbiker66
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 251
    I bought a frame and seatpost from him and it didn't occur to me either. I stopped by his shop with my recently damaged Titec bar, and he offered to make a new bar for me. Couldn't turn that one down! :thumbsup:

    While I was there I saw this:


    Oh, and here's a shot of my bar being made. This is super secret lemon pledge treatment:


    Eriksen Bars are Sweet!!! I think I'm up to 3 pairs now. That must be my Chad in the Pic clean your bars. Yes Lemon Pledge is the Secret to keeping Ti clean and shiny. Well as shiny as a media blasted Ti frame and parts can be. I love ti:thumbsup:
  • 02-05-2011
    frorider
    Some of you guys are missing the point. Anyone with a brain understands that material and labor are just the starting point--then there's all the other costs such as warehousing, distribution, marketing, etc. But most of those 'other costs' are in principle approx the same in dollar terms for a Ti vs Al bar.

    In practice, the industry has not managed those costs to be equal. Blacksheep etc are small operations, relatively inefficient compared to raceface pumping out tons of alu bars.

    If ti bars became high volume and mainstream, price would drop significantly.
  • 02-07-2011
    bdombrow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fatboy66
    Hello,

    I am looking for another handlebar for my ti hardtail. At the moment i am riding with an easton carbon low riser 685 mm with 9 degrees backsweep.

    Does a ti handlebar from moots or Kent Eriksen make sense? I am looking for a 28" with a sweep of 12 degrees. Is ti comfy, reliable and stiff enough as handlebar? The other bar that has my interest is the syntace carbon or the 7075 aluminium low riser bar with 12 degrees backsweep.

    Please advice the pro's en con's .

    Thanks.

    The only handle bar I have ever broken has been a Ti handlebar. I switched to carbon. On the plus side, the Ti bar had a uniform outside diameter and allowed me to slide it over to ride home.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdombrowski/911076243/
  • 02-07-2011
    jager7
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bdombrow
    The only handle bar I have ever broken has been a Ti handlebar. I switched to carbon. On the plus side, the Ti bar had a uniform outside diameter and allowed me to slide it over to ride home.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdombrowski/911076243/

    yikes. what brand of bar was it?
  • 02-07-2011
    bdombrow
    Moots. It seems a Ti handlebar is hard to make. My LBS took care of the whole thing.

    I was more bummed about the 20+ miles of single track that I bailed on than anything else.
  • 02-07-2011
    knottshore
    I have an old set of White Bros Ti risers, which are pretty neat, not too flexy but do offer a bit more damping than aluminum for sure.. but they are pretty darn heavy kinda overkill really. I also tried a set of 2nd hand Seven bars for my steel rigid bike to see if it might be a nice addition to the steel and squishy tires... ~15 deg bend 27" wide- 22.2 mm with a shim- they were so ridiculously flexy it was actually frightening. One of the reasons I like my rigid bike is how precise the steering feels, I was not looking for super flexy or suspension just a bit of damping. I went back to Carbon Easton's and now the Flat 685 Easton's They work great and were ~$99

    The only thing I learned is IF I ever do decide to get bars or a frame made of ti... it will be custom, made for my size and ride style.
  • 02-08-2011
    bikeny
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bdombrow
    The only handle bar I have ever broken has been a Ti handlebar. I switched to carbon. On the plus side, the Ti bar had a uniform outside diameter and allowed me to slide it over to ride home.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdombrowski/911076243/

    The only handle bar I have ever broken has been a carbon handlebar. I switched to titanium. On the plus side, the carbon bar had a uniform inside diameter and allowed me to put a stick inside to ride home (slowly).

    I just don't trust carbon stuff on mountain bikes. I don't know about the rest of you, but I crash every couple of rides, and would have to replace carbon parts way too often.

    Mark
  • 02-08-2011
    jfkbike2
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by netanimic
    This is the best:

    Damit they are hard enough to get without telling the whole world! ;)
  • 02-08-2011
    patk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jfkbike2
    Damit they are hard enough to get without telling the whole world! ;)


    Indeed! Now it will take forever to get a second one. :D
  • 11-26-2012
    Canyon93108
    Any new thoughts on Ti bars, and who is making good ones/
  • 11-27-2012
    CHSAD
    I think if I was going to full rigid like the black sheep/jones route I would consider it. But if you have a squishy fork or full squishy bike I would take the light weight of carbon or the low cost of alum. That's not to say they aren't good.
  • 11-27-2012
    allthatisman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Canyon93108 View Post
    Any new thoughts on Ti bars, and who is making good ones/

    Carver makes a 710mm flat bar, that fits 31.8 stems without a shim. It's $99, which is pretty cheap compared to a Moots etc. I was tossing the idea of getting a Ti bar to match my Ti bike, but I ultimately went carbon because it's lighter. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Carver bar though.
  • 12-18-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by allthatisman View Post
    Carver makes a 710mm flat bar, that fits 31.8 stems without a shim. It's $99, which is pretty cheap compared to a Moots etc. I was tossing the idea of getting a Ti bar to match my Ti bike, but I ultimately went carbon because it's lighter. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Carver bar though.

    I bought their PryBar from bikeman a few weeks ago: 730mm flat bar, 9deg sweep, 31.8 stem, around 220g IIRC. So far so good, no noticeable flex to speak of.


    Apologies for a picture of a 650b bike. :rolleyes:
  • 12-19-2012
    metrotuned
    holymoly the syntace 12 degree is a wonderful improvement over the enve sweep bars from prior setup - your mileage may vary - as i learned how to ride how mileage with a Naked style bar which has 20+ degrees.
  • 01-10-2013
    allthatisman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    I bought their PryBar from bikeman a few weeks ago: 730mm flat bar, 9deg sweep, 31.8 stem, around 220g IIRC. So far so good, no noticeable flex to speak of.


    Apologies for a picture of a 650b bike. :rolleyes:

    So does the bar feel better than an aluminum bar, or carbon? Is it comparable to carbon? It sure looks good, is certainly wide, and much cheaper than the Thomson offering.
  • 07-04-2014
    Miker J
    Resurrecting this thread...


    For riding rigid, a bar with some flex is great. Currently running a Spec carbon bar and the thing flexes a lot, but in a good way. But the bike takes a real beating between travel and riding. I camp with, and canoe the bike around. Scrapes and gouges are common.


    Looking at going custom Ti made to be a little flexy.

    I've got an email into Moots and Seven. For something I'll use for a long time, I don't mind paying a few extra bucks as long as I get a good fit.
  • 07-04-2014
    bigdrunk
    I have two Seven wide Ti bars I have been riding for 5+ years. I remember that the price was right for a custom bar. I highly recommend.
  • 07-04-2014
    knottshore
    Groovy Luv handles in ti...