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  1. #1
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    Tantrum Cycles on TV Adventure Capitalists tonite

    They called and asked if I wanted to be on the show. I said "sure, what's the worst that can happen?"

    Tonite at 10pm ET, 7 pm PT

    https://youtu.be/5McTzFy0uXs

  2. #2
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    I'll be excited when I can ride an XL to test, and even more excited when an xxL is available.

    I understand your frustration. I've designed numerous things, and even been awarded a patent, but there is so much more involved to have your stuff actually "for sale".

    Mechanical design is my first love. Finances, i never loved.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    They called and asked if I wanted to be on the show. I said "sure, what's the worst that can happen?"

    Tonite at 10pm ET, 7 pm PT

    https://youtu.be/5McTzFy0uXs
    Great segment and congrats on your new partnership!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    I'll be excited when I can ride an XL to test, and even more excited when an xxL is available.

    I understand your frustration. I've designed numerous things, and even been awarded a patent, but there is so much more involved to have your stuff actually "for sale".

    Mechanical design is my first love. Finances, i never loved.
    What size reach would you be looking for?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_mtn View Post
    Great segment and congrats on your new partnership!
    thanks Mike

  6. #6
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    What's the outcome?

  7. #7
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    Brain

    Why did you employ a single pivot on your design?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jlar View Post
    Brain

    Why did you employ a single pivot on your design?
    which one?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    which one?
    The meltdown and the outburst both utilize a single pivot. Why didn't you place the rear pivot on the chain stay?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jlar View Post
    The meltdown and the outburst both utilize a single pivot. Why didn't you place the rear pivot on the chain stay?
    actually, there pivots on both ends of the chainstay. Not that this is something to be proud of, but there are more pivots than any other bike

  11. #11
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    How has the website traffic been, Brian?
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    What size reach would you be looking for?
    I'm on a 507mm xxL ex8 right now. It feels pretty right for my 6'8" length.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    actually, there pivots on both ends of the chainstay. Not that this is something to be proud of, but there are more pivots than any other bike
    If you did a deflection test, like put a lever on the axle path, and applied 25lb of force, how much more flex would yoir frame have in comparison to say, a popular bike of reference? Is that something that you've tested at all? That's my concern on any full sus bike. My fuel ex8 actually was a little loose from the bike shop. It allowed me to get rotor contact between the chain stay left stay. It's something that I've thought was probably a real weakness in fulsus mtb's.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    How has the website traffic been, Brian?
    Well I doubt it was high enough to worry about crashing the website, but it was half of last monthís total within the first 8 hrs.

    And swamped with new email and waiting listees

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    I'm on a 507mm xxL ex8 right now. It feels pretty right for my 6'8" length.
    Thatís pretty reach. Maybe next batch....

  16. #16
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    Man, I wish I had jumped on that Kickstarter. I ALMOST did too, I just didn't have the money at the time. I was watching it almost every day.

    Ah well.
    "Go soothingly in the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon"

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    If you did a deflection test, like put a lever on the axle path, and applied 25lb of force, how much more flex would yoir frame have in comparison to say, a popular bike of reference? Is that something that you've tested at all? That's my concern on any full sus bike. My fuel ex8 actually was a little loose from the bike shop. It allowed me to get rotor contact between the chain stay left stay. It's something that I've thought was probably a real weakness in fulsus mtb's.
    There are similar tests. How stiff is stiff enough? A judgement call that all designers must make.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    Man, I wish I had jumped on that Kickstarter. I ALMOST did too, I just didn't have the money at the time. I was watching it almost every day.

    Ah well.
    I am starting to take deposits on the next batch. While the price will not be a slow as KS, I will offer a TBD discount for early orderers. Stay tuned

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    There are similar tests. How stiff is stiff enough? A judgement call that all designers must make.
    That's why I qualified that statement with a comparison value from a popular manufacturer. All those links on your frame concern my "stiffness sense".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    That's why I qualified that statement with a comparison value from a popular manufacturer. All those links on your frame concern my "stiffness sense".
    There is no "standard" comparison value. Everybody makes their own decision. All bikes flex. How heavy do you want it to be? Because it's more about link and CS stiffness than pivots. I have numbers and tests I use to determine what is "adequate" stiffness. knock on wood, haven't had any complaints on that front from testers or customers.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    There is no "standard" comparison value. Everybody makes their own decision. All bikes flex. How heavy do you want it to be? Because it's more about link and CS stiffness than pivots. I have numbers and tests I use to determine what is "adequate" stiffness. knock on wood, haven't had any complaints on that front from testers or customers.
    I didn't ask for a standard, I asked for a comparison value from a popular manufacturer or popular bike of reference. I really am not asking if it's about "more than link and cs stiffness". I am specifically asking how stiff is it compared to a popular bike manufacturer. I find it hard to believe that you didn't compare, as that's exactly how I design a better "whatever" when I'm trying to improve something. If you didn't make a comparison, that's the answer. If you did make a comparison, I'd like to know how it fared.

    I.e. it is stiffer than xxx bike frame rear triangle.

    That would be a great marketing ploy as well.

    knock on wood, haven't had any complaints on that front from testers or customers
    I also know from prior conversations that you haven't (or hadn't at the time) made any frame larger than a medium for trialing. If a frame were needing stiffness, it would likely be shown to be needed when a 250lb clyde was on a xl or xxl frame.

    I don't care if the suspension IS as good as they claim, that little dude on that bike causing it to flex like that? It'd turn into a pretzel if I put my clyde self on it.
    Last edited by @Ride@; 11-23-2017 at 03:34 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    I also know from prior conversations that you haven't (or hadn't at the time) made any frame larger than a medium for trialing. If a frame were needing stiffness, it would likely be shown to be needed when a 250lb clyde was on a xl or xxl frame.
    You're focused on the linkage/rear triangle stiffness though, and that won't change with the XL or XXL frame - although currently a L is the largest offering. But I can offer a comparison for you. The rear end of the bike I rode was laterally stiffer (tracked better) than the rear of my XL Anthem 29er, which is, in my opinion as good or better than the old AL Pivot Mach 429. Of course, when you get right down to it, my experience was on a clapped out prototype, not a production model, so then you have to ask: Does my experience even matter?

    I think Brian's point regarding "no standard comparison value" is that there IS *some* flex in any frame. But no one has, to the best of my knowledge, sat down and said ok, we're going to put 25Kg of torsional force across the rear triangle via the axle and measure the amount it twists. Or do we put 25Kg of force on the side of the chain stay and measure deflection? Or do we get a different number if we apply force to the seat stay? So if he did (on his coin) go buy (for instance) a specialized E29 and put some weight on it and say it deflects X amount and my bike deflects Y amount, how meaningful would those numbers be to someone who has never ridden an E29? How many bikes would Brian have to buy and gather numbers from before these numbers started to be meaningful?

    (BTW, we all know Brian wouldn't use an E29 for testing purposes if he planned on publishing numbers, because he doesn't want to be sued)

    Brian's point is that at some point someone thought the Slingshot was a good idea. Clearly it wasn't. Various manufacturers have built bikes and they all flex different amounts, even across similar designs. Some people don't even notice they're riding something with the lateral stiffness of a wet lasagna noodle. I'm not saying it's everything, but Brian was a suspension engineer in the automotive racing world, so he does understand the implications of things flexing in directions they aren't supposed to, but he also understands that absolute stiffness is a false premise. Some deflection will happen. It's up to the consumer to evaluate whether or not it's within and acceptable range. Why not jump on the thread in the AM forum and ask some of the folks that have their bikes what they've ridden before and how they feel about the rear end of this bike?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Ride@ View Post
    I didn't ask for a standard, I asked for a comparison value from a popular manufacturer or popular bike of reference. I really am not asking if it's about "more than link and cs stiffness". I am specifically asking how stiff is it compared to a popular bike manufacturer. I find it hard to believe that you didn't compare, as that's exactly how I design a better "whatever" when I'm trying to improve something. If you didn't make a comparison, that's the answer. If you did make a comparison, I'd like to know how it fared.

    I.e. it is stiffer than xxx bike frame rear triangle.

    That would be a great marketing ploy as well.


    I also know from prior conversations that you haven't (or hadn't at the time) made any frame larger than a medium for trialing. If a frame were needing stiffness, it would likely be shown to be needed when a 250lb clyde was on a xl or xxl frame.
    No. I do not have a comparison value. I don't need one. I have enough bike design experience that I have my own comparison value. I know how stiff I want the bike to be. I know what will be noticeable or objectionable to most riders.

    It's no secret how to make things stiffer. Carbon, which I don't have, or thicker wall tubing, which further increases my weight disadvantage vs all the carbon competition.

    I chose a tubing thickness/stiffness/weight compromise that my design experience told me would do the job. Actually, the fr triangle is very stiff, as I used DH thickness downtube.

    You may notice that I am not mentioning the number of links or bearings in this discussion. Largely irrelevant if sized adequately.

    And yes, I have had some pretty big guys with long stems and waay extended seatposts on the demo bikes, all size M, which is actually the new S in reach. So the new M and L are quite a bit larger than the demo frames, but there are a few of them out in the wild getting ridden hard.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    And yes, I have had some pretty big guys with long stems and waay extended seatposts on the demo bikes, all size M, which is actually the new S in reach. So the new M and L are quite a bit larger than the demo frames, but there are a few of them out in the wild getting ridden hard.
    Brian, do you have current geometry measurements? I think you mentioned elsewhere that the website numbers were dated.

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