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Thread: "Tai"-Jones

  1. #51
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    Enel, you're a curious fellow, but I like your testing methods.

    Basically zero chatter from the front end in terms of flex when you grab a big handful of front brake going down something fast and steep, is my take on the truss fork? Is any oscillation even noticeable under those conditions?


    Next question is, when are you going to tackle going down, I think it's trail #297 on the Jones? Before the rains? Looking forward to your report on how it feels on that.
    "i'll brazilian when YOU do boy, right around the ol' rusty star. Actually, whole fruit bowl. Get on it!" NicoleB

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Basically zero chatter from the front end in terms of flex when you grab a big handful of front brake going down something fast and steep, is my take on the truss fork? Is any oscillation even noticeable under those conditions?
    No chatter, no oscillation that is noticeable by me. I am sure it is there, but the frequency is high enough not to matter.

    It is sort of like going from a single crown to triple clamp suspension fork if you get my drift.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Next question is, when are you going to tackle going down, I think it's trail #297 on the Jones?
    I went plenty fast down Munds Wagon chasing Aqua (who is hella fast!) and I have no concerns for its manners at speed. You do get a beating as the speeds increase though.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  3. #53
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    How tall are you Enel?
    For some reason I was thinking your ByStickel was non corrected....

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT
    How tall are you Enel?
    For some reason I was thinking your ByStickel was non corrected....
    184cm.

    Bystickel is corrected, I just haven't bothered to put a suspension fork on it. That will change soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed
    where is the geo posted?

    I would like to know as well.

  6. #56
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    I got this question in another thread and thought it would be helpful to insert and elaborate on the answer here.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgerat
    E,
    Are the Stickel and Jones still different enough to not be compared? Kind of like a 9mm and a .40 cal, the same but, different, not better just, different?
    Thangew,
    Isaac
    Ha. More like a 9mm and a 1911

    Like a steak knife and a chef's knife.

    Or if you are a car guy: a Lotus Exige and a Porsch Cayman.

    I purposely took both bikes to Sedona to compare them and rode the Jones in the morning, and the By:Stickel in the afternoon. I only had about two hours on the Jones prior to this ride and maybe 60 hours on the By:Stickel. Imagine my surprise when I rode more comfortably and confidently in technical terrain, and at high speed on the Jones. It wasn't even close.

    This sort of move was no problem on the Jones, it would have scared me on the By:Stickel.



    This move did scare me. Rideable, but scary/nervous. I was wishing I had the other bike at this moment.


    Photo cred: Aquaholic

    The difference between the bikes really bugged me, and I have been thinking a lot about the whys since that ride. The main issue was the incredible stability of the front end of the Jones. The By:Stickel in comparison felt like it bounced/flexed all over, couldn't get traction, and in general was not confidence inspiring at all in comparison. Steve thinks it is the fork and I am sure that is the biggest part of it.

    Since that ride, I swapped the rather flexy On-One Carbon for an 1100 gm no name steel fork. I had a very short comparison ride today and things are better. Ultimately, I do not think it is possible for the By:Stickel to have the same front rigidity as the Jones without being non-suspension corrected, with a 135 spaced front wheel, and a truss fork. The only thing that would do it would be a 1400 gm dirt-jumpable 29" suspension corrected fork (which does not exist to my knowledge). I am thinking of trying a Niner Carbon fork, but the investment is steep, especially since I don't know if it will help hugely.

    Ultimately, the By:Stickel will likely end up with a 100mm tapered suspension fork. It is probably done as my rigid technical bike.

    Riding them back to back, the Jones feels much heavier (same weight for both), but somewhat unflappable, like riding a tank. Stiff and controllable, but on the harsh side. The By:Stickel feels significantly lighter and more playful, but less competent/confident when things get serious. I need to get some more back to back rides on them, because I am sure there is such a thing as too rigid up front and the Jones is approaching that point for me. Perhaps with the steel fork the By:Stickel will be that magic combination of comfort and control. If I had a super long ride on more mellow trails, I would take the By:Stickel for sure. It fits me perfectly.

    Anyway, the strong/stiff front end of the Jones makes moves like this go from a bit terrifying to actually fun.



    That rock proceeds to straight vertical, and then after a bit of a free fall into a 1/4 pipe G-out. It is not hard, you just need to commit, hang on, and hope nothing breaks off the front end. I have done it on many bikes, but it always gave me a bit of pause when I hit it rigid. Honestly it scared me. I hit it three times today and found it more exhilarating than scary. When it counts, I prefer the stiffness up front.

    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  7. #57
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    Hey Enel, that some impressive riding and your Jones is certainly nice, too.
    But why did you decide against the H-Bar? I have a Loop-Bar on my Spaceframe and I feel it is an integral part of the whole Jones-Package.

  8. #58
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    Just a note: a 9mm is a caliber, 1911 a model. But I'm guessing you probably knew that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT
    Just a note: a 9mm is a caliber, 1911 a model. But I'm guessing you probably knew that.
    Stupid me, I used 1911 synonymously with .45, but if I think about it, that of course isn't true.

    Thanks for the correction.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britney Spears
    Hey Enel, that some impressive riding and your Jones is certainly nice, too.
    But why did you decide against the H-Bar? I have a Loop-Bar on my Spaceframe and I feel it is an integral part of the whole Jones-Package.
    Tried it, didn't like it, wrote it up and converted to traditional bars four years ago and have never looked back.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Tried it, didn't like it, wrote it up and converted to traditional bars four years ago and have never looked back.
    Thanks for your answer! Your post in that thread is certainly interesting to read.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel

    Since that ride, I swapped the rather flexy On-One Carbon for an 1100 gm no name steel fork. I had a very short comparison ride today and things are better.

    ... I need to get some more back to back rides on them...... Perhaps with the steel fork the By:Stickel will be that magic combination of comfort and control.
    I got a very nice, long back to back rock crawling session yesterday on both bikes.

    Steve was right, the On-One fork was causing a lot of my annoyance, pretty much all of it actually

    The Stickel is much better with the steel 1100gm Zion fork.

    If I were to grade forks it would go like this:

    On-One: Not stiff enough.
    Zion: Adequately stiff.
    Jones: More than stiff enough.





    After yesterday's ride, I am hard pressed to say which bike I prefer more in this type of terrain. There was no clear winner as far as the frame fork combo was concerned and I found my self more distracted by the ancient, crappy pedals I have on the Jones, and the front tire of the Stickel.

    The Jones and Stickel rode comparably, with neither bike having a great advantage over the other. They had their little quirks, but nothing really annoying, or outstandingly better than the other. The Stickel was more compliant, the Jones was stiffer....preferences, but both within tolerable limits. I would say the same about the geometry, both are within the limits of what I would call a great handling bike. Slight differences, easily compensated for.

    The FR4 tire on the front of the Stickel really sucks on rocks. I do not like it and can't really recommend it. The FR3 blows it away in the grip department. I am moving the FR3 from the back of the Jones to the front of the Stickel.

    I think I can explain my Sedona annoyances at this point due to flexy fork and crappy front tire that I only noticed in comparison to an excellent tire and super stiff chassis.

    I look forward to getting them back to back on something higher speed, but everything is pretty muddy right now and will be for a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  13. #63
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    Cool, I figured that fork was the main hindrance. It's a great rigid fork for XC duties, just not up to par for your needs though!

    I think a custom steel fork with thru axle would be the best thing for you. The Zion fork is still in the compliant list IMO. I think the only production forks up for your needs are the Monocog fork(not flight), KM fork, and possibly the steel On One fork.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky
    Cool, I figured that fork was the main hindrance. It's a great rigid fork for XC duties, just not up to par for your needs though!

    I think a custom steel fork with thru axle would be the best thing for you. The Zion fork is still in the compliant list IMO. I think the only production forks up for your needs are the Monocog fork(not flight), KM fork, and possibly the steel On One fork.
    Yeah, I am not up to speed on rigid forks for the most part. I have tried the KM, Zion, Carbon White Bros, Carbon On-One, and steel Soul Cycles.

    I hated the handling of the Soul for for some reason (485 A-C maybe?). Everything else was tolerable.

    I still need to try the Stickel with a suspension fork The Jones fills my need for a rigid play bike just fine and it can't take suspension. The bikes are so comparable, I don't really need them both filling this same niche. Anyway, I needed to get it settled in my mind that the issue was the fork, not the frame and I think I have done that adequately at this point.

    My apologies to Steve for doubting him.

    The nice thing about the Jones (or the bad thing) is that it comes as a system: Frame fork, wheel (and some would add bars). As such, you get what you get and it is pretty hard to screw up with component choices. It is well thought out and, if you fit it, it is an extremely nice riding rigid bike.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  15. #65
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    I would highly recommend the Salsa Enabler


  16. #66
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    Yea!

    Great news. Thanks, Eric.

    (this leaves me 2-0-1 , not too shabby (; )
    I am ByStickel
    ByStickel Facebook Please take a look.

  17. #67
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    First ride today

    Finally here! Can't wait to test it on today's night ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails "Tai"-Jones-img_8226-1.jpg  

    Funkyzeit!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by simen
    Finally here! Can't wait to test it on today's night ride.

    Ooooo, shiny! Enjoy and report back
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  19. #69
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    Enel, have you anytime on the spaceframe? If so, would you compare the two (Jones frames) for those of us that most likely will not?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT
    Enel, have you anytime on the spaceframe? If so, would you compare the two (Jones frames) for those of us that most likely will not?
    Nope, just bounced on Aqua's a little.

    The space frame does have a nice little carrying handle just forward of the seatpost.

    I don't buy all that mumbo jumbo about curved tubes being vertically compliant, laterally stiff, blah, blah, blah, but have no basis for the opinion other than bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  21. #71
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    Breeding like rabbits

    The Stones (Tai Steel Diamond) is a great riding steel bike.
    The Mones (Merlin Ti Spaceframe) really transcends what a rigid bike is, it's that good.

    So what is the take away, steel as a material is stiffer and heavier than Ti (gasp) and the diamond frame is not as compliant as the spaceframe (double gasp) but it is a great steel bike and I plan to ride it a lot and have a lot of fun on it.

    Enel, in addition to being a carrying handle it also serves as a great seat (sideways not straddle...).

    Get one, or three!
    -Jason

    Ugh picture upload fail (mods, pics with ? can be deleted)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails "Tai"-Jones-untitled-2.jpg  

    "Tai"-Jones-untitled-3.jpg  

    "Tai"-Jones-jones2.jpg  

    "Tai"-Jones-jones3.jpg  

    "Tai"-Jones-jones4.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Allroy; 03-08-2011 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Main picture didn't get uploaded

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Stupid me, I used 1911 synonymously with .45, but if I think about it, that of course isn't true.

    Thanks for the correction.
    Pretty much a given, if you know a little history about the 45, the Colt 1911 in 45 ACP, is what started it all, semi automatic pistols.

    No worries, I knew what you meant. Now if you'd said kind of like comparing a Luger to a 1911... well, it's pretty clear which design, 100 years later, is still in production.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by simen
    Finally here! Can't wait to test it on today's night ride.
    This production steel space frame is the version I want to hear a ride review of.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATXSS
    This production steel space frame is the version I want to hear a ride review of.
    me 3

  25. #75
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    Right, so I have finally got around to sorting out an account so I can post a ride review of the production steel Spaceframe. The summary of this is that it's a very fun bike, and I'm very happy with it.

    My bike is set up geared, with a fat front tyre and H-bars. It weighs about 29 pounds-though it does not feel heavy to ride, if this makes sense. I would echo the other comments about the stiffness of the frame and fork-though this does not translate into a harsh ride. I would say that the overall ride is as comfortable as other good steel bikes that I have tried (one example being a Cotic Soul). I spent a fair amount of time on it at Rotorua last weekend, and though I had to go a bit slower than I would have on my usual full suspension bike, I wasn't much more fatigued/sore than I would have been otherwise.

    Where this bike has really impressed me is its ability in technical trails (or at least the technical sections that I have found so far)-it's extremely confidence inspiring and handles very precisely, as Aqua and Enel have said. I would describe the handling as being both stable, yet highly maneuverable. Not sluggish, and certainly not twitchy. This is, however, the only rigid mountain bike that I have spent any significant time on-I would say that the fat front tyre definitely works well as a form of suspension-I have been running mine at around 7 psi, 9 is a bit harsh.

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