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Thread: Surly Krampus

  1. #901
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    ^
    Disappointed to hear this.

    I wish Surly would make a tubeless compatible rim or license it from stans like the UMA rims. UMA tubless are rock solid.

    They seem ahead of the times and behind the times on some aspects.

  2. #902
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    Are the 27tpi wire beaded as well? I've had much less luck setting up wire beaded than kevlar beaded tires tubeless. Seems like the more pliable kevlar bead conforms to the rim better.

  3. #903
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    I have no experience with setting up Surly tires tubeless, but from other tires I've worked with, a folding bead and higher tpi tire make a huge difference. It seems like the members who have converted the 120tpi Knards to tubeless have had much better luck... Tubeless or not, I won't buy the cheaper version of tires, in my experience it's never been worth the price savings.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    ^
    Disappointed to hear this.

    I wish Surly would make a tubeless compatible rim or license it from stans like the UMA rims. UMA tubless are rock solid.

    They seem ahead of the times and behind the times on some aspects.
    Quote Originally Posted by TBMD9er View Post
    Are the 27tpi wire beaded as well? I've had much less luck setting up wire beaded than kevlar beaded tires tubeless. Seems like the more pliable kevlar bead conforms to the rim better.
    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    I have no experience with setting up Surly tires tubeless, but from other tires I've worked with, a folding bead and higher tpi tire make a huge difference. It seems like the members who have converted the 120tpi Knards to tubeless have had much better luck... Tubeless or not, I won't buy the cheaper version of tires, in my experience it's never been worth the price savings.
    My experience will hopefully help the next guy.

    yep, 27tpi is wire bead (or at least non-folding). My surly Bud tire is 120tpi and once I put foam under the rim strip, it was bomb proof! I would have glady spent the extra few bucks to get the higher tpi tires, but I thought the 27tpi would actually do better tubeless. Now I'll just have to spend the next 9months trying to wear these things out! Hopefully slime tubes will keep the flats sufficiently rare, as flats are the only reason I ride tubeless.
    Last edited by PretendGentleman; 02-20-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #905
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    A few thoughts. I'm running the 120's, split tube, no issues at all.

    The stiffer casing can make it harder to get it to seat initially, but once you get it, it should work fine.

    I have not run into issues with getting any of the 27 TPI, steel bead fatties to set up with the split tube, not that it's super relevant, but worth noting.

    I do find that fresh tires don't set up as easily as ones that have been ridden for a while with tubes. to get them fully formed out.

    Did you check to see that you had no bends in the wire bead? A little kink can cause major hassles, fortunately, a quick finger tweak and it's fine.

    Sorry for your hassles, it can work, and at least with the 120's, works quite well.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    Cool. I'm sure the RH is the optimal rim for the Knard, but I have a few reasons for wanting to use the P35 (which Surly did say was okay) so long as it doesn't handle to wonky. Maybe the low pressure will flatten the tire out once on the bike and negate some of what I'm seeing, but it seems like the cornering would be weird with such a tall profile.
    I think the P35 should handle fine with this tire. I'm running mine on a Flow Ex which has a 25.5mm internal width vs. the P35 at 29mm. I've not discovered any bad habits. Does it handle as well as my Hans Dampf/Flow Ex on high-speed dirt? No, but neither did any other tire/rim combo that I've tried. Steering is also not as precise as the HD/Flow, but all in all these are minor downsides.

    Also, the sidewalls are pretty thin on this tire. So less sidewall exposure on the narrower rim might be a good thing on rocky terrain. I attached a cell phone pic to try to show the profile on the Flow Ex. The tire looks slightly fatter in real life.

    Ok, so one more thing to mention. I'm running a tube and got a snake bite flat on some very rocky terrain last night. I thought I had 18psi in the tire (I weigh 225). I thought that should be plenty, but maybe I lost some air and didn't know it. I do think the narrower rim may increase the chances for Snakebite with tubes. My next ride will be tubeless with 19-20 psi.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Krampus-050.jpg  

    Surly Krampus-048.jpg  


  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    Tubeless or not, I won't buy the cheaper version of tires, in my experience it's never been worth the price savings.
    +1 - I couldn't agree more...
    Safe riding,

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  8. #908
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    What's the max spoke tension for the Rabbit Hole?

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    So I've just about concluded that tubeless won't work on these. I keep burping my front wheel unless I run the pressure much higher. Last night I lost so much air from losing bits here and there that I got a snake bite in the sidewall and couldn't get it to reseal and had to stick a tube in. I'm thinking the 27tpi tires are just lacking something that nicer folding tires have. I thought the 27tpi would be more durable and work better for tubeless, just with the weight penalty of the heavier, cheaper tire. I'm disappointed, this will be the first time for me running tubes in a few years!
    I'm going to bet that setting it up using split-tube will alleviate the burps. I've got a 27TPI that I'm going to set up split-tube this week. I usually dab on some extra Mold Builder latex along the bead for faster set up. This has worked well on other tires I've set up this way.

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by stremf View Post
    I'm going to bet that setting it up using split-tube will alleviate the burps. I've got a 27TPI that I'm going to set up split-tube this week. I usually dab on some extra Mold Builder latex along the bead for faster set up. This has worked well on other tires I've set up this way.
    It is split-tube! I put foam under it too, but just to help with seating the bead with only a floor pump.

    It does hold air when seated, but if I run low pressures that are great for 99% of the trail, the remaining 1% is just too dang rough. It's like you've got to add air to your suspension fork every time you bottom it out! You can put in extra air and lose some suppleness or stop and repump now and then. Except this is a suspension fork that can be damaged when you bottom it out!

    I didn't have this problem with regular tubeless 29er wheels, b/c I wasn't trying to run low pressure. Though I also didn't have it with my bud on darryl, but that's 120 tpi and much bigger cross-section.

  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    It is split-tube! I put foam under it too, but just to help with seating the bead with only a floor pump.

    It does hold air when seated, but if I run low pressures that are great for 99% of the trail, the remaining 1% is just too dang rough. It's like you've got to add air to your suspension fork every time you bottom it out! You can put in extra air and lose some suppleness or stop and repump now and then. Except this is a suspension fork that can be damaged when you bottom it out!

    I didn't have this problem with regular tubeless 29er wheels, b/c I wasn't trying to run low pressure. Though I also didn't have it with my bud on darryl, but that's 120 tpi and much bigger cross-section.
    Sorry about that--didn't realize you were already using split-tube method. Now you've got ME worried!!

    3 hrs later: I just set mine up with 26" Q-Tube, no foam. Just a layer of gorilla tape underneath and the split-tube. Tire mounted easy and aired up on first try. Around 25psi, loud pop as it seated. I'm going to let it set for a day or two, then head out for a test ride.
    Last edited by stremf; 02-20-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  12. #912
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    RH build was uneventful. First single wall rim I've built and was surprised by the stiffness. Hope Evo black hub (front), black Laser spokes, black brass nips, asymmetrical build, 100kgf.

    Tape job was a learning experience. I used one layer of orange duck tape, trimmed down to fit just inside of the bead hook, followed up with a layer of hd package tape lip to lip. The duck tape wouldn't lay flat and wrinkled at the nipple head, although mostly cosmetic. Soaped the beads and mounted the tire without sealant. Injected 4oz of sealant. Took a few rounds of air before the bead sealed up. Once I finally got it to hold 20psi, I heard a pop and the tape started leaking. Apparantly I didn't get a good seal where the package tape overlapped and it lifted up. Not sure what I'm going to change for round two, but I don't like how the duck tape was wrinkling.

    I impressed by how tight this tire (120) fits on the bead. It also take a considerable amount of force to push it off the bead.

  13. #913
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    1x1clyde, I'm interested how the Knards feel on a much narrower rim. Do you feel like they are rolling over in the corners with the 24.5mm rim? Have you ridden the Rabbit Hole rim as well for comparison?

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Once I finally got it to hold 20psi, I heard a pop and the tape started leaking. Apparantly I didn't get a good seal where the package tape overlapped and it lifted up. Not sure what I'm going to change for round two, but I don't like how the duck tape was wrinkling.

    I impressed by how tight this tire (120) fits on the bead. It also take a considerable amount of force to push it off the bead.
    I haven't tried it, but I've heard of people using a hair dryer to warm the tape and encourage the tape's adhesive to bond well to the rim(especially if you're working in cold weather/ a cold room). I haven't heard of people using packing tape on top of duck tape. I've heard of packing tape being used over the holes in the rim to allow you to see inside, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing.

    Gorilla brand duck tape has more adhesive than most duck tapes, but is also thicker and heavier. One layer might suffice.

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike hippy View Post
    1x1clyde, I'm interested how the Knards feel on a much narrower rim. Do you feel like they are rolling over in the corners with the 24.5mm rim? Have you ridden the Rabbit Hole rim as well for comparison?
    I have been on the Rabbit Hole rims now for about 2 weeks....I have to say that the Arch EX while light were not that fun in driving turns.
    The Rabbit Hole/Knard combo is king!

    So happy with the set up. Cornering especially is so solid its scary the grip that you can get before you exceed the side traction.

    I will add that I went ghetto tubeless with the Rabbit hole rims for about a week- 4 rides here in socal- and I am riding this like any of my other bikes. The tubeless set up did burp in the front - running a filet 24" tube and the surly rim strip- and the PSI had to hover around 19 to work for me.
    When I went back to good ole tubes, which this is the only bike I have that uses tubes lol!, I can run 15 PSI and hit rock gardens, drops and fast berms without hesitation!

    Still very pleased with the bike and the bling carbon fork is a good addition!
    What is thy bidding, my master.

  16. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1x1clyde View Post
    I have been on the Rabbit Hole rims now for about 2 weeks....I have to say that the Arch EX while light were not that fun in driving turns.
    The Rabbit Hole/Knard combo is king!

    So happy with the set up. Cornering especially is so solid its scary the grip that you can get before you exceed the side traction.

    I will add that I went ghetto tubeless with the Rabbit hole rims for about a week- 4 rides here in socal- and I am riding this like any of my other bikes. The tubeless set up did burp in the front - running a filet 24" tube and the surly rim strip- and the PSI had to hover around 19 to work for me.
    When I went back to good ole tubes, which this is the only bike I have that uses tubes lol!, I can run 15 PSI and hit rock gardens, drops and fast berms without hesitation!

    Still very pleased with the bike and the bling carbon fork is a good addition!
    I agree with everything you are saying. And I am running tubes also!

  17. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    Aside from the minor difference in width, is there much of a noticable difference in profile between the tire on the two rims? I mounted a Knard on a P35 and the profile appears quite "eggy" (i.e. tall with substantial drop from the crown to the edge knobs). The pics I've seen of the Knard on a RH look similar, but a side by side comparison would be great.
    I couldn't really tell much difference in the profile between the RH and p35 without laying a square accross the tire. The RH had a profile height (from tip of side knobs to top of center tread) of 20mm and the p35 was 22mm at 20psi. In my experience, a wider rim is mainly going to allow you to drop the pressure lower without getting squirm. I think the P35's will work pretty well. I will probably try it sometime in the near future, but for now it's on a RH in a Vassago Pitch fork.

  18. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    I haven't heard of people using packing tape on top of duck tape. I've heard of packing tape being used over the holes in the rim to allow you to see inside, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing.
    I'm using orange Duck Tape brand tape for the cosmetic layer (sticky side out). Initialy, I tried package tape over the top of that to seal the rim bed, but in a rush , I broke the cardinal rule and didn't install a tube first to fully seat the tape. Besides that, the bead leaked air really bad and was hard to get sealed up with sealant. I'm confident this could have worked if I would have installed a tube first to seat the tape.

    The winning method was using gorilla tape to seal the rim bed vice package tape. The extra thickness sealed the bead tight even without sealant and should provide a tighter fit to combat burping. I cut the orange tape 30mm wide, prelaminated it to the gorilla starting 50mm from the end, and started at the rim seam. Left 50mm of gorilla only on the trailing end also. It's a little cumbersome to prelaminate the tape, but I did it in quarter sections and it went pretty smoothly. It's important to get the gorilla tape centered on the rim as it really needs to be about 2mm wider. It's definitely takes a little more attention to detail compared to taping a dual wall rim since there is only a small strip of adhesive on each edge of the tape. I normally avoid using split tubes at all cost, but this is one application where I could go either way. I don't mess with floor pumps when mounting, so that's not a factor in my assesment.

    The package tape strip was 25g and the gorilla tape strip is 60g. I'm using 4oz of sealant. The wheel with tire/sealant wieghed 2200g (hope front qr, Lasers, brass nips, stans valve, gorilla strip).

  19. #919
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    Surly Krampus-cam00064.jpg
    This was a test run, the orange tape is 37mm wide in this pic. I narrowed it down to 30. I think the cutouts are 22mm. if I had to do it again, I would probably go down the 26mm.
    Surly Krampus-cam00065.jpg

  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    I couldn't really tell much difference in the profile between the RH and p35 without laying a square accross the tire. The RH had a profile height (from tip of side knobs to top of center tread) of 20mm and the p35 was 22mm at 20psi.
    Excellent, thanks again!
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  21. #921
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    I weighed my Krampus on a more accurate scale today. Came in at 31lbs on the nose. Much better than the 31.5lbs I got on the other scale. It will definitely be under 30 with a new seatpost and converting to tubeless.

  22. #922
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    Just wondering if anyone with a medium Krampus could measure up the inside of the frame triangle to see how big a framebag would fit in there?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  23. #923
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    have surly two diferent frames??? one whith fender and rack eyelets, and one whithout

    Surly Krampus-1-surly-krampus-right.jpgSurly Krampus-132-630x421.jpgSurly Krampus-cyclemonkey_surlykrampus_rearbrake.jpgSurly Krampus-487680_215303851941095_39718518_n.jpg

  24. #924
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    very intersting; it took me a minute to notice that some of those bike you posted have two sets of eyelets. My small krampus has just the pair right on the end of the dropout. I wonder if maybe the top one is an early production run. I would have appreciated a few more eyelets, but not by much.

    On the surly site, the frame pics don't have the extra one, but the complete pic looks like they might be on there, but can't say for sure.

  25. #925
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    if you see surly pictures online , you see two versions, i like the version with

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