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Thread: Surly Krampus

  1. #851
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    Surly Krampus-img_3062.jpgSurly Krampus-img_3064.jpg

    Just finished my build today. It's an XL and it came in at about 30 lbs.

    It's a suicide-shift 2 speed. Basically a single speed but when I need it I can kick down (literally) from 36-19 to 22-19 to power up the big hills we have around here). I've run this set-up on my commuter for a year now and love it.

    Specs:

    - Surly MWOD double front (36 and 22)
    - ghetto-tubeless
    - AVid BB7 180mm front and rear
    - paul's singlespeed rear hub
    - Paul's melvin chain tensioner
    - white industries eno 19t
    - thomson seatpost
    - crank brother's candy pedals
    - precision handlebars (super wide) and grips
    - temporary kona stem

    I'll probably trim the handlebars a few inches, and once I get a few rides in I'll decide what size stem I need and place a matching thomson stem on there. and i'll chop the steerer at that time too!

    I've only gone up and down the block a few times, but this is definitely a much different animal then the Pugsley I just sold. I'm looking to find a suspension fork for it once I'm comfortable with the options that present themselves.

  2. #852
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    So I don't get tire flats on my local trails. Period. Knock on wood. I've run a tubed fat front for almost a year now. No flats. Taking flat prevention out of the equation, is there a good argument for running the Knard/Rabbit Hole gorilla tubeless? I can't imagine the weight savings are that great. Low pressures are nice, but I haven't had trouble with pinch flats on my 45 North fat front running Q tubes. I have a Rabbit Hole 120tpi Knard front wheel/tire coming this week. With my practical experience, I could go either way with tubes or tubeless. But I could be missing the obvious. Anybody care to share any wisdom?
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  3. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    With my practical experience, I could go either way with tubes or tubeless. But I could be missing the obvious. Anybody care to share any wisdom?
    Running my Husker Du tubeless I saw a 2 once difference in weight which can be more I just didn't have the right rim strip to loose more weight, ride wise though you could feel the tire felt like it had less air in it then when you have a tube, i.e. 10psi feels like 8psi, which of course sounds stupid, but that's what I can say.

  4. #854
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    So I don't get tire flats on my local trails. Period. Knock on wood. I've run a tubed fat front for almost a year now. No flats. Taking flat prevention out of the equation, is there a good argument for running the Knard/Rabbit Hole gorilla tubeless? I can't imagine the weight savings are that great. Low pressures are nice, but I haven't had trouble with pinch flats on my 45 North fat front running Q tubes. I have a Rabbit Hole 120tpi Knard front wheel/tire coming this week. With my practical experience, I could go either way with tubes or tubeless. But I could be missing the obvious. Anybody care to share any wisdom?
    Depends on the tubeless setup and the tube setup you came from.

    Look at both ways as a system.

    Both need a rim strip with drilled holy rims. Now, you can use something heavy as hell like the Surly rim strips or something light like one or two rolls of duct tape. This also gives design choices as you can run the tape inside out and show off the tape pattern /design.
    For a rim strip, I am using a poly-type designer tape. It's light as heck and super strong.

    So there with tubes or tubeless you can save a little weight and make your rims look cool.

    Onto the tube part. You can use the heavy Surly toob or use a regular 29er tube. Now, depending on your trails, stretching a 29er tube to fill a 3 inch tire, may lead to flats quite fast. Only you can be the judge on that.

    So, depending on tube used subtract that weight for tubeless and then add:

    weight of the stans (mine weighs 1/2 oz) or duct tape for rim sealing tape, the valve stem (mine weighs less than 1/4 oz) and AT least 2oz of sealant for a tire this large. Most people use 3 or 4 oz. I don't. That's talked about in another thread.

    Also some people have a hard time seating the bead tubeless and resort to foam in the rim channel. It weighs nothing though. But whatever, any weight must be added.

    So add the tubeless setup weight and what have you really saved... Maybe 1-4 ounces given the variables I've stated. So that would be 2-8 ounces for the total. That goes from 2 oz (worthless) to 8 oz (which is quite wishful really) which is worth it.

    My point is there's too many variables on any given setup to give a solid weight loss figure.

    Combine this with tubless issues: burping, possible bead unseating on the trail making it very hard to reseat, air loss until the tire is well coated with stans, flats on the trail still and no backup tube if you take that kind of chance.
    So, yes I run tubless (and no spare tube in my pack. It has left me walking once in 5 years) to save those few ounces, but like dvo1 said 10 psi feels like 8 and rolling resistance feels less with tubless. It may be in my head, but if this is what it takes to trick myself, then so be it.
    Last edited by thickfog; 02-16-2013 at 06:00 AM.

  5. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    So I don't get tire flats on my local trails. Period. Knock on wood. I've run a tubed fat front for almost a year now. No flats. Taking flat prevention out of the equation, is there a good argument for running the Knard/Rabbit Hole gorilla tubeless? I can't imagine the weight savings are that great. Low pressures are nice, but I haven't had trouble with pinch flats on my 45 North fat front running Q tubes. I have a Rabbit Hole 120tpi Knard front wheel/tire coming this week. With my practical experience, I could go either way with tubes or tubeless. But I could be missing the obvious. Anybody care to share any wisdom?
    I rarely got flats on my MTBs with tubes. Like less than 1 per year. Switching to tubeless my wheels are lighter which is nice. I get better traction and less rolling resistance. I can also run low pressures without worry about snake bites.

    I carry a spare tube in my hydration pack, but I've never had a tubeless failure on the trail.

    I've switched my 2 main MTBs over to tubeless and won't go back. Thinking of setting up my fatbike tubeless as well.

    Forget about the weight and think about allowing your tire to conform more easily to the terrain without having that tube in there. That extra traction/performance from your tire is worth it.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  6. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I rarely got flats on my MTBs with tubes. Like less than 1 per year. Switching to tubeless my wheels are lighter which is nice. I get better traction and less rolling resistance. I can also run low pressures without worry about snake bites.

    I carry a spare tube in my hydration pack, but I've never had a tubeless failure on the trail.

    I've switched my 2 main MTBs over to tubeless and won't go back. Thinking of setting up my fatbike tubeless as well.

    Forget about the weight and think about allowing your tire to conform more easily to the terrain without having that tube in there. That extra traction/performance from your tire is worth it.
    +1 to this. This is nearly identical to my experience and opinions on tubeless.

  7. #857
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    I heard yesterday that these rims are only 670grams. That's crazy light for that width. Have others weighed their rims? How about a weight on the production tires? 120tpi.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  8. #858
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    I haven't weighed anything except the complete bike, but the rims did feel very light. I was definitely surprised by the weight.

  9. #859
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    I heard yesterday that these rims are only 670grams. That's crazy light for that width. Have others weighed their rims? How about a weight on the production tires? 120tpi.
    Mine came in at 653 grams.

  10. #860
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    I have one good offroad ride in finnaly-and was impressed again! Loved it on the test last summer-but really loved it at home! Did a very rocky trail-rock crawling type. Found that the front lifts real well for such a big bike-and the slack head angle was awesome rooling off stuff-when i didnt get the front up! A buddy said it just looked easy-like I was on an easier trail.

    A note about tubes/tubeless........Remember if you run tubes to talc or babaypowder the inside of the tire well. It is kind of forgotten to do this it seems. If you have the tire and tube talced well-they CAN move independently...it feels more like tubeless.
    i own a bikeshop in WV thetruewheelwv.com

  11. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    I heard yesterday that these rims are only 670grams. That's crazy light for that width. Have others weighed their rims? How about a weight on the production tires? 120tpi.
    Most rim weights I've seen for the Rabbit Hole in this thread, and others, have come in under 700 grams. The 120tpi tires seem to be all over the place, from 700 to 1100grams. The most common weight reading I've been seeing for the 120tpi Knard is between 950-1000.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  12. #862
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    I mounted my 120 tpi Knard yesterday and did not like the way the bead seated, it popped off on both sides the first time I aired it up; it popped at 25psi, so not a lot of air.

    I'm using a Nimbus Dominator 2 rim, 42mm, burly rim hook, so I was kinda suprised the tire popped off so eailly. I also like running tubeless, and had planned to run tubeless on the Knard, but not any longer. Maybe the 27tpi is burlier constructopn and/or has a tighter fit, but this the ultraligt casing and it fits big, so I see this tire blowing off the rim as a tubeless set up.

    I also have a Knard 26 x 3.8 120tpi and it appears to have a standard Surly casing, feels more substantial, though it also weighs more at 1325gm.

    My 29 x 3 120tpi Knard weighs 925gm, kinda heavy for what it is, only ten percent larger overall that my Hans Dampf 2.35, far less burly, and heavier by 50gm.

    Anyone have a 27tpi Knard comparison to a 120tpi? How does the casing and rubber differ? What's the weight range for the 27tpi?

    Not impressed so far...

  13. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    +1 to this. This is nearly identical to my experience and opinions on tubeless.
    Thanks to everyone above for the tubeless responses. I worried I might be opening the old tube vs. tubleless can or worms--I generally go tubeless, but not for my fat front which I never bothered to set up tubeless. I wasn't sure if these fatter tires might fall somewhere outside the tubeless argument folks have on "regular" tires. By the way, for those who are thinking of using tubes, I've had just great luck and performance from q-tubes. Running the q-tube at really low pressure on the front, and it's been pretty perfect.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  14. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I mounted my 120 tpi Knard yesterday and did not like the way the bead seated, it popped off on both sides the first time I aired it up; it popped at 25psi, so not a lot of air.

    I'm using a Nimbus Dominator 2 rim, 42mm, burly rim hook, so I was kinda suprised the tire popped off so eailly. I also like running tubeless, and had planned to run tubeless on the Knard, but not any longer. Maybe the 27tpi is burlier constructopn and/or has a tighter fit, but this the ultraligt casing and it fits big, so I see this tire blowing off the rim as a tubeless set up.

    I also have a Knard 26 x 3.8 120tpi and it appears to have a standard Surly casing, feels more substantial, though it also weighs more at 1325gm.

    My 29 x 3 120tpi Knard weighs 925gm, kinda heavy for what it is, only ten percent larger overall that my Hans Dampf 2.35, far less burly, and heavier by 50gm.

    Anyone have a 27tpi Knard comparison to a 120tpi? How does the casing and rubber differ? What's the weight range for the 27tpi?

    Not impressed so far...
    I have 27tpi f and r. I set up the front tubeless, but ran out of foam for the rear. When inflating the tubed rear I had 1 issue with the bead popping off around 12 psi; had to let air out and reseat the bead. Going tubeless w/ 24" split q-tube, had to use foam to create seal/push rim to sidewalls. Very loud snapping of bead onto rim. W/ no sealant very little air leaking out! Burped 1 time so far, so running higher air pressure. Burping isn't a good sign! I'm running a slime tube in the rear and it seemed to even recover from a pinch flat, to my surprise. But pinch flat wouldn't be an issue with tubeless, which is what I have exclusively run on mtb for the last 2 years. I'm ready for a successor to the knard. Something like the bud and lou for tread, but a 3.2 or so up front!

    Cross laced wheels have ~40 miles on them and they're still running super stiff and super straight. I love how stiff this bike is, I would be curious to compare to a regular laced krampus.

  15. #865
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    so how many people are running normal 29er tubes vs the surly tubes? any issues? i was looking at running standard schwalbe 29er tubes or the q tubes superlite ones. is it worth it or is it more reliable to run the Surly tubes??

  16. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJfromtheSwitch View Post
    so how many people are running normal 29er tubes vs the surly tubes? any issues? i was looking at running standard schwalbe 29er tubes or the q tubes superlite ones. is it worth it or is it more reliable to run the Surly tubes??
    As I mentioned above, I have been running a q-tubes superlite on my fat front bike for almost a year with no issues. I'll take the weight savings myself.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  17. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    Depends on the tubeless setup and the tube setup you came from.

    Look at both ways as a system.

    Both need a rim strip with drilled holy rims. Now, you can use something heavy as hell like the Surly rim strips or something light like one or two rolls of duct tape. This also gives design choices as you can run the tape inside out and show off the tape pattern /design.
    For a rim strip, I am using a poly-type designer tape. It's light as heck and super strong.
    Thickfog, you're using tape as a rim strip. Are you using two pre-measured strips of tape placed sticky-side together to create a rim strip?
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  18. #868
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    Thickfog, you're using tape as a rim strip. Are you using two pre-measured strips of tape placed sticky-side together to create a rim strip?
    For my uma 90 mm rims on my fat bike, yes two pieces of designer duct tape side by side sticky side out. I did not cut this tape as I preferred the slight overlap for strength. This was a pain to set up. One year two months still ok.

    For krampus, just a single piece sticky side out, but I cut the width down as the poly tape would not conform to the center channel well. This makes me a bit nervous as the tape edge is closer to the rim holes. My fear is the tape may push through the holes one day if it shifts. :banghead:

  19. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    For krampus, just a single piece sticky side out, but I cut the width down as the poly tape would not conform to the center channel well. This makes me a bit nervous as the tape edge is closer to the rim holes. My fear is the tape may push through the holes one day if it shifts. :banghead:
    The surly rimstrip has this same problem! If you don't pay close attention, its easy to end up with the tube protruding from the cutouts! The strip should be about 1cm wider imo.

  20. #870
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    My different tapes :



    From left to right :
    Green sparkle poly tape. Rim strip. From
    tapebrothers.com:
    http://www.tapebrothers.com/mobile/default.aspx#P2998

    Duck brand tape. Rim strip.

    Gorilla tape. Rim sealing and rim strip.

    Giant stan's tape at almost 4 inches wide! Rim sealing.

    The fatbike with uma 90s tubless. Rear uses gorilla as sealing tape, front uses giant stans (giant stans was found later). I prefer stans as it stretches and conforms to the rim crevices better:

    Last edited by thickfog; 02-17-2013 at 06:47 AM.

  21. #871
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    One more "mod" I had to try

    White Bros Carbon Fork, 490 Axle to crown keeps it slack!

    So with the Rabbit Hole rims, 120 tpi Knards it is at a svelte 27 1/2.

    I've always liked carbon with my rigid set ups and the addition of the bigger tire is a perfect match. Had some pretty fast runs down some local trails the last few days and expect for the really rocky it was just fine!

    Surly Krampus-side-carbon.jpg

    Surly Krampus-front-carbon.jpg
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  22. #872
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    I have the Knard 29 x 3 (120tpi). I run Maxxis Freeride Tubes 26 x 2.2-2.5 (295gm) in all my tires, 26 x 4", 29 x 2.4, and now 29 x 3". Reasonable weight, no pinch flats to date, less expensive and more durable than the Surly offerings. Be sure and preinflate the tube to stretch it out, use some powder so the tube moves in the tire.

    I rode hard today, found the pressure sweet spot pretty quickly at 17psi with ambient air temp around 40 deg F. Rode a lot of rock, some mud, roots, drops up to 2', had a minor rim shot off one biggish ledge where I landed sideways, it would probably have been better with a little more pressure, but more pressure = more bounce.

    Overall I like the tire, it's faster rolling that an Ardent or Hans Dampf, not quite as competent in mud, but then what is... The tir needed some breaking in, initially a little squirelly, but once it got dirty it was all good. The volume is very obvious, far more cushion than a 2.4, easier on my back and butt, was able to ride longer and never felt beat; the HD always leaves me feeling beat up.

    I'd be curious to see if the sidewalls are beefier on the 27tpi, anyone have both tires in hand to do a comparison?

  23. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    For krampus, just a single piece sticky side out, but I cut the width down as the poly tape would not conform to the center channel well. This makes me a bit nervous as the tape edge is closer to the rim holes. My fear is the tape may push through the holes one day if it shifts. :banghead:
    Thanks. I haven't set up a cut-out rim before. I'm not going to use the Surly rim strip. I wasn't sure if using the tape sticky-side against the rim and with the sticky open to the air outside the rim in the cut outs would cause some kind of problems. Either as dirt collectors, or a sticky mess on hot days. Plus, with regular gorilla tape it'll be kind of ugly. I'll figure it out.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  24. #874
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    I meant sticky side out as in when you are looking at the rim channel. Then sealing tape over that. You don't want sticky tape exposed to the outside. That would be some mess.

  25. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I meant sticky side out as in when you are looking at the rim channel. Then sealing tape over that. You don't want sticky tape exposed to the outside. That would be some mess.
    Yep. Got it. Common sense, right? Now I'm just looking into a couple different methods.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

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