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Thread: Surly Krampus

  1. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I want these 700g tires. That's only 50 more than my racing ralph 2.4s!

    Id say there's a layer or so missing! Maybe a misbuild/qc issue?

    I just don't see how a normal 120tpi knard can hit 700g. It's a huge tire.
    No kidding. My 120 tpi came in at 862. I still find that completely amazing. I weighed my 1/3 worn Racing Ralph 2.25 SS and it was 661. Also, the Knard is tit city and I'm guessing it will loose a few grams once those are gone.

  2. #827
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I don't think this is what cross lacing means per typical bike speak. A 3x lace would mean each spoke crosses 3 spokes on its way to the rim. You just "crossed" over to the opposite drilling.

    So what is the proper or best way to build these? I did not cross over. Was that a mistake or a preference? :banghead:
    Im confused, so is he saying he radially laced both sides of the rim but just crossed thenspokes from one side to the other? I smell disaster coming.

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  3. #828
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    I have now weighed 4 tires, 2 120 tpi and 2 27 tpi versions. The 120's were ~1080 - 1100 grams and the 27's were north of 1200 gr. I do not see how they could be 700 or 800 grams. does not make sense to me. Just seems like too much variation in the manufacturing process to be 300 grams difference per tire.

  4. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I don't think this is what cross lacing means per typical bike speak. A 3x ("three cross") lace would mean each spoke crosses 3 spokes on its way to the rim. You just "crossed" over to the opposite drilling.
    this would have been better stated as a question.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Im confused, so is he saying he radially laced both sides of the rim but just crossed thenspokes from one side to the other? I smell disaster coming.
    it might be your upper lip that you're smelling

    I'm not aware of an entirely agreed upon vocab for this, but 3 cross refers to the regular crossing with which you are familiar. cross-lacing refers to taking the spoke from left flange to right side of rim and vice versa. Offset lacing is another possibility, where the spokes all go to the same side of the rim.

    Typically, you're always going to do 3 cross with a 32 spoke wheel, which is what I did, but I also laced the spokes cross-laced. I call it 3 cross, cross-lacing. I'll call the conventional wheel a regular 3 cross to be clear.

    There are a lot of urban legends about cross-lacing, maybe some are true. Shimano used to make some road wheels that were cross laced. BMW makes some respected motorcycle wheels that are cross-laced. both of these example are said by some to be finicky, even phantasmagorical.

    The typical "myth" is that cross-laced wheels are amazing, but they are finnicky to true and build. People talk about them getting a wobble and then applying regular truing techniques and the wobble mysteriously moves around, never getting under control until you detension the wheel and slowly and evenly bring it back to tension.

    While I never build wheels that start out with any kind of big wobble (assuming new parts), which to me just indicates poor attention to even spoke threading (i.e., before they are under tension).

    Below you can read some comments about the supposed difficulties. Perhaps the 5mm offset of the holes in the rim is small enough that it behaves like a regular wheel.

    Lacing Rolling Darryl Rims
    Anybody ever "Cross" their spokes to the other side of the rim

    I e-mailed surly, and they said to just build 'em regular 3 cross. I ordered the spokes for regular 3 cross out of fear of lacing a wheel and discovering that it really is a pain during the tensioning process. Instead I discovered that it was totally easy and essentially no different from building a regular wheel. These wheels should be much stronger under lateral loads (taco resistance, so to speak) than if they were laced regular 3 cross.

    I wanted to share all of this with the world so you can go forward without fear. You can even order spokes for regular 3 cross and use your spare time to take a risk and lace it up 3 cross, cross laced, knowing that you'll have to move every spoke over if it doesn't work out (not exactly the end of the world). But I see no reason why you should have more trouble than me. Obviously only time will tell with regards to durability, but everything I've read suggests that durability is enhanced by cross-lacing.

    I don't want all this cross-lace discussion to overshadow how amazing the hex head nipples are. You wouldn't even notice they were different if you don't look close. High tension wheels without even touching a spoke wrench!

    I should also mention that I got the 27 tpi tires and they did NOT want to go ghetto tubeless. I'm running tubes right now (regular 29er works fine, 26x2.7 q-tubes work fine too, but former was easier to install the tire) to encourage the tires to take the shape of the rim. I suspect that I will end up putting a layer of foam strips between the rim strip and the split tube like I did when I made my bud on darryl tubeless. On a lesser note, the surly rim strip is a bit narrow, and the first time I installed a tire, the tube ended up being visible through the hole in the rim, as the strip had moved over a bit while mounting the fat 26" tube.

    front wheel: Surly Krampus-dscn4848.jpg

    rear wheel: Surly Krampus-dscn4849.jpg

    it looks like a kid's bike: Surly Krampus-dscn4850.jpg

    from behind: Surly Krampus-dscn4851.jpg

    crappy camera: Surly Krampus-dscn4847.jpg

    edit: I also wanted to clarify that 3x in this context is read as "3 cross", not "3 times", as one might expect. I've tried to write out cross rather than using the x to be more clear.
    Last edited by PretendGentleman; 02-12-2013 at 10:13 AM. Reason: building an epic post takes time

  5. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    I just finished building my Krampus with rabbit holes and knards.

    I laced the rabbit holes using a 3x cross-lace pattern. cross-lacing is where spokes from the right flange go to the holes on the left side of the rim. The idea is that the greater bracing angle leads to greater lateral strength with a relatively small loss of vertical strength.

    I researched this and read mostly negative reviews. Fly Bikes, a bmx company, produces rims specifically designed to be laced like this, with the rim orienting the nipples to face the oppposite flange.
    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I don't think this is what cross lacing means per typical bike speak. A 3x lace would mean each spoke crosses 3 spokes on its way to the rim. You just "crossed" over to the opposite drilling.

    So what is the proper or best way to build these? I did not cross over. Was that a mistake or a preference? :banghead:
    With normal rims, cross lacing is not possible - since the spoke holes are in a line. Only with these wide rims with holes offset significantly from each other/centerline can you make it happen. As the user stated - the lacing is 3x, as is most common for bicycle wheels. But each flange is laced to the holes in the opposite side of the rim.

    As stated, this gives you more lateral strength because the spokes are now at more of an angle from vertical. HOWEVER. These crosslaced wheels can be much harder to build simply because each movement of the nipple moves the rim farther than it would for conventional lacing. I started cross lacing wheels because the USC 100mm rims I was using have a +/-25mm offset, which gave me about 1 degree of lateral bracing vs a normal wheel with about 8 degrees. I was worried about a major lack of lateral strength, so I crosslaced - giving a lateral bracing angle around 20 degrees! The problem is that the normal 1/4 turn of a nipple now produces 10x the lateral movement. Very touchy to true initially, but very strong. I have been running some of these wheels for at least 2 years of fairly rough riding w/o issue or need to retrue.

    For an offset of +/-5mm (which is what I recall the RabbitHoles having) there would be only a little bit of difference. They should build up just like a "normal" wheel, but the look will be a bit different. Here's a +/-25 3x crosslace before tension/true:
    Surly Krampus-img_1357s.jpg
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  6. #831
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    ^That looks wicked!

  7. #832
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    hello. has anyone measured the ERD of the rabbit hole rim? if it is similar to surly's other rims the provided ERD of 615.5 will take into account building alternate sided. im thinking that for a geared rear hub, it would be best to lace all to one side and want to use alu nipples so want spoke length to be spot on ...i could wait until the rims arrive to measure, then order spokes, but you all know what it is like to be in a rush to get things rolling, right?
    Last edited by dRjOn; 02-14-2013 at 03:57 AM. Reason: additional text

  8. #833
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    Has anyone had a chance to ride on backed sand or tidal flat regions? Particularly interested on how the tires do on the Texas gulf coast flats-not the loose sand but the packed stuff. I know the fat tire bikes could handle it but the krampus is very tempting.
    tia

  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post
    hello. has anyone measured the ERD of the rabbit hole rim? if it is similar to surly's other rims the provided ERD of 615.5 will take into account building alternate sided. im thinking that for a geared rear hub, it would be best to lace all to one side and want to use alu nipples so want spoke length to be spot on ...i could wait until the rims arrive to measure, then order spokes, but you all know what it is like to be in a rush to get things rolling, right?
    qbp has 615.5

    offset lacing(that's what I call it when all spokes go to one side of the rim) should work well with these. I do recommend cross-lacing, though I've only ridden 20 miles on it. It's super stiff. But offset should give pretty even tension. The same spoke worked fine for cross-lacing as the qbp spoke calculator recommended for regular lacing. Thus you don't really need to make any correction. Aluminum nipples don't stip in my experience, the head/shoulder breaks off, so having 1mm to little spoke won't make a difference. My front and rear w/ shimano hubs were both 297/298. I would just do 298 on both sides for offset.
    Last edited by PretendGentleman; 02-14-2013 at 08:33 AM.

  10. #835
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    Did my first long ride last night, ~20 miles. It rained for 2 days before the ride so this was a good test of the krampus. (In case you're worried, these trails aren't public and they love to be ridden in the rain; more wet leaves than mud) It's hard to notice that you're not slipping or how amazing your traction is if you're alone, but I wasn't and my riding buddy was amazed by what I could climb up and how well I did in turns. I'm not sure if its the high bb or wide tires or both, but I felt like I did far more two-wheeled drifts w/o any problem or even needing to unclip than I've ever experienced before (high bb makes falling over happen slower, so you have a better chance of correcting it). I also fully embraced my technique of riding with my fingers off the brake levers. Even though it was wet, I was able to make it through a windy section with millions of small pine trees, without even touching my brakes (whereas I normally would have used them in a couple of the turns).

    the 3 cross, cross laced wheels are doing great. During the build, I don't put too much time into pre-stressing the wheel and bedding the spokes into the hubshell when it's a wheel for me, as I think its more efficient to just ride it and do the single retrue that is typically required. So far no retrue required. I did notice that the bike is much stiffer than my old 29er. There's a little whoopdiedoo that I use to jump over a small drainage culvert and on my old 4cross 36h p35/m756 wheel would noticeable deflect when I pumped through this little section. The cross laced rabbit hole was very confidence inspiring and noticeably stiff. for rims with only 5mm offset, based on my experience so far, I will definitely cross-lace 'em.

    One thing that I'm not sure how to explain is that the krampus bunny hops like my 26er! There are three big tree trunks that I usually hit either both or my rear tire on to get over. On my 29er I'd never cleared them (i.e., without touching), and only a couple of them on my 26er. On the krampus without paying any special attention, i cleared every single trunk without touching. A very pleasant surprise.

    I think I ended up riding faster in the same way that people do when they switch to a single speed. I was more aggressive attacking hills and since I can't use my granny gear, I rode taller gears; I like to save that easiest gear for the hardest climb - it helps psychologically to know you could make it easier!
    Last edited by PretendGentleman; 02-14-2013 at 10:03 AM.

  11. #836
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    Pretend - What PSI were you at? Any comparo of how it felt between the Knard and a regular 29er tire? I just switched out my front for a Knard, but haven't had a chance to ride. I thought the Ardent 2.4 was big, but this thing looks humongous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stremf View Post
    Pretend - What PSI were you at? Any comparo of how it felt between the Knard and a regular 29er tire? I just switched out my front for a Knard, but haven't had a chance to ride. I thought the Ardent 2.4 was big, but this thing looks humongous.
    Not sure about pressure, my pump isn't accurate down there. I'd guess around 12 psi. I also varied the pressure on the ride using a pump w/o gauge. I did get a mild pinch flat in the rear where I have a tube, so it was pretty low, but I also hit hard.

    I ride very aggressively, and low pressures do give great traction, but they also lead to problems with the big hits. If I put the pressure at a point that gave the best traction, I could bottom out the rim pumping a big dip. Still figuring out the trade-offs, but looking forward to making the rear tubeless (waiting for hardware store to get more foam in) so pinch flats are no longer an issue.

  13. #838
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    Thanks. Did you feel any better/less beat up than being on a rigid 29er at the end of the 20 miler? I get a sore shoulder after a ride on my rigid Jones (is that redundant?), so hoping that the Knard will soften up the ride so I can go longer.

    I've got a tube in there right now, but after the tire properly takes its shape, I'm going to set it up split-tube tubeless.

  14. #839
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    Re: Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post
    hello. has anyone measured the ERD of the rabbit hole rim? if it is similar to surly's other rims the provided ERD of 615.5 will take into account building alternate sided. im thinking that for a geared rear hub, it would be best to lace all to one side and want to use alu nipples so want spoke length to be spot on ...i could wait until the rims arrive to measure, then order spokes, but you all know what it is like to be in a rush to get things rolling, right?
    Mine hit 615 on the dot.

  15. #840
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    I'm finding that without using a digital gauge (i just picked up a SKS one) that 10-12psi on a variety of high end floor pumps actually meant 6-8psi tires. Today I rode through 3-5 inches of fresh snow at 9psi and my print was comparable to an endomorphs tracks left by an earlier riser than me.

  16. #841
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    My Krampus made possible by Cycle Haven.
    They still have Krampus build kits available.

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    expectacular gtr2ebike

  18. #843
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    Surly Krampus

    Quote Originally Posted by ironman13 View Post
    expectacular gtr2ebike
    +1. That thing looks awesome. Well done.

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    I want one of these but I'm not hardcore enough for a rigid bike. Has anyone tried any other suspension fork? Seems like a Fox works fine. Will it rub the crown on the rare occasion that you get full travel? That Fox looks like my 26er with a 2.3 650b tire in it.

  20. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    I want one of these but I'm not hardcore enough for a rigid bike. Has anyone tried any other suspension fork? Seems like a Fox works fine. Will it rub the crown on the rare occasion that you get full travel? That Fox looks like my 26er with a 2.3 650b tire in it.
    I'm the same way. I've thought about it a lot, but in reality I don't even want to spend the money to build a rigid full fat bike because other than the possible lighter weight I'm pretty sure I would not end up riding it much after the novelty wore off. For me FS is the only way to go. But w/o that option for Knard size tires, at the moment at least, having a suspension fork is the next best thing.

    [For those who don't know I do have a FS fat bike I built that works very well.]
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  21. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    Has anyone tried any other suspension fork?
    Yep, works like a charm too.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Krampus-k3.jpg  

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  22. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfkbike2 View Post
    I have now weighed 4 tires, 2 120 tpi and 2 27 tpi versions. The 120's were ~1080 - 1100 grams and the 27's were north of 1200 gr. I do not see how they could be 700 or 800 grams. does not make sense to me. Just seems like too much variation in the manufacturing process to be 300 grams difference per tire.
    +1 - but if past experience with Surly fat bike tires holds true there is a significant variation [say 100g] between the same tires when weighed. And 120tpi tires are significantly lighter.

    In the fat bike world some folks are weighing tires before they buy them and cherry picking the light ones.
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  23. #848
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    That is Sexy.
    plunging like stones from a slingshot on mars.

  24. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by tao View Post

    That is Sexy.
    Are all those spokes laced to the left side of the rim? If so, how's it holding up?

  25. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    Are all those spokes laced to the left side of the rim? If so, how's it holding up?
    Yes, and just fine.

    It's funny how many folks question it, and worry about durability. Every Pugsley and Moonlander is rolling on at least one, if not two, offset built rims.

    And in this particular case, the rim is pretty narrow, further reducing the likelihood of it ever being a problem....

    Running an offset built Uma 90 on my fatty with a Lefty, beat the snot out of that thing too!

    And tao? Thanks!

    edit: Oops, forgot, I ended up relacing it to symmetrical, no issues, just evened up the spoke tension to do so. It was offset when that pic was taken though....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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