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Thread: Steel vs. Ti

  1. #1
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    Steel vs. Ti

    First of all hi! I'm new on here but have been on the boards looking at stuff for a while now.

    Sorry if this is a repeat thread but I did search beforehand and didn't find an exact thread like this. But again...sorry if it is a repeat.

    I'm looking into possibly purchasing a new frame to build up in a few months when I graduate from grad school and start making some real money I've been researching doing a custom frame and think this is the way to go. My big thing right now is trying to determine what kind of material I want a custom frame out of.

    I thought about carbon but it just kind of freaks me out to do carbon on mt even though my friend loves her sworks stumpy and swears by it. That said I'm between steel and ti.

    I know ti is more expensive and supposedly more resilient. I know it's supposed to be the "ultimate" frame material by some standard. However, I've heard great things about steel and it is relatively cheaper. I know steel is more prone to damage due to rust though (I don't ride in wet conditions often but 12 hour races out here do run in the rain sometimes so yeah...there's that).

    I guess what I'm looking for is anyone who's owned a frame of both material who can tell me the real difference. I mainly want to know about ride quality. I do prefer my stiff carbon road bike over my aluminum mt bike but, again, carbon on mt still makes me nervous. I do like the stiffness though and I'm wondering which of the two is less flexy. Which one is more suited to cross country? Is there a difference in ascending/descending? Is there any difference at all other than price?

  2. #2
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    People will chime in and tell you that it is more about how the frame is made, and there is merit to it. Especially if you go custom with a good builder, who can tailor your ride how you want. My first 29er was a steel frame and while very compliant I didn't like the front end wobble. I took this info to Quiring (who does steel, Ti, alu) who taliored a frame in Ti for me that ticked all the boxes. If you are going custom, have this converation with your builder who will advise you ..this is why you go to a good custom builder.

    Having said that....steel has some good points...I like steel a lot. I think there is something with the feel of it. I think it is easier to make a steel frame regarding tolerances with the smaller diameter tubes, and I believe less demanding to weld and cut. Ti is nicer regarding no rust and lighter. I personally don't consider one tougher than the other as long as the build is right. Potentially I think keeping the weights reasonable, Ti will be stiffer.

    All up I prefer Ti. Personally I think it feels racier than steel....a good compromise between steel and alu. It just depends on what you want the frame to do for oyu and what kind of riding you do though. I'd love a nice custom steel frame. I still ride my old Italian racing roadie from the 80's.

  3. #3
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    If you have access to both, try them out. Only you will know if a certain material suits your needs. I'm not a huge fan of carbon, but it has more than proven itself over the last few years. Rent, beg, steal, borrow bikes of different material types and try them all out to see which works best for you.

    I'm old and like my steel bikes. I've owned everything but carbon, and I always go back to steel.

  4. #4
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    Why do you need custom? Are you really big or small? I would ride a lot of bikes so you're more informed before going for a custom frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Bob View Post
    If you have access to both, try them out. Only you will know if a certain material suits your needs.

    I like this ^^^ advice but keep in mind that rides can vary wildly depending on how the builder has designed the frame and fit is paramount- for example riding a too small or large ti frame is not a fair test of it's ride qualities.

    I have not owned any ti bikes but have ridden many and my opinion is that they offer a very supple ride that seems especially good for a ridged or HT mountain bike. Overall the ones I've ridden feel more flexy- In a good way, than steel. Someday I will have one.

    I have owned several steel frames and I love the ride of a good steel steed. Good tubing and good design = a great ride. I wouldn't worry about rust- if you live in a really wet area you can treat the inside of the frame but otherwise take reasonable care and you'll have no problems.

    To my knowledge there is no such thing as a custom carbon frame.

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    There are plenty of custom carbon frames, Crumpton being one of the very best.

    and you're absolutely crazy to buy a Crumpton unless you know exactly what you want.

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    It seems as if you haven't even considered Aluminum.
    And yes, why would you feel the urge to get a custom frome?

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    i would try a lot of bikes
    i'm on my 3rd frame this year
    trek xcal
    niner mcr
    canfield nimble 9
    and finally found the geometry that suits my style and fit
    so NOW i have a custom titanium on order, it closely mimics the nimble 9, with more stand over clearance and a couple little tweaks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan GSR View Post
    i would try a lot of bikes
    i'm on my 3rd frame this year
    trek xcal
    niner mcr
    canfield nimble 9
    and finally found the geometry that suits my style and fit
    so NOW i have a custom titanium on order, it closely mimics the nimble 9, with more stand over clearance and a couple little tweaks
    What did you not like about the MCR?

    As everyone has said, get on a load of bikes. I rode steel until I found something I loved, then ordered a custom Ti. There are some great deals on steel bikes right now, I'd take a few for a spin.

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    tubing matters

    I've owned a couple steel and a couple ti mtn bikes.....both geared and SS. Just know that there is a difference between high quality steel and plumbing-quality steel. Same goes for ti......there is a lot of ti out there that is designated "sport grade" and you really don't want to spend the money to get a bike made with this.

    So there are steel bikes made of wonderful tubing with better ride characteristics than some ti bikes.

    My preference is ti if you can spring the extra $$. By and large it's smoother, doesn't carry the same worry as steel in wet environs, and if well made will last a couple of lifetimes.
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    Look at Vassago...you can get a base model SS or geared steel...if you like it they do USA made high-end steel and USA Ti....just sell the base-they sell quick and upgrade frames!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon93108 View Post
    What did you not like about the MCR?
    not that i didn't like the mcr
    i just like the handling of the canfield that much more
    the geometry of the nimble 9 is better for me
    the mcr has a much steeper head tube angle
    and steering was too fast at high speed

    the best way i can describe it is the mcr steers thru my hands
    where as the nimble 9 steers thru my hips

    and gives me WAY more confidence
    i can do stuff that i normally wouldn't, and carry way more speed

  13. #13
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    I'm a fan of Ti. I've had my Ti road bike for 11 years now and have no urge to replace it. I rode a high end carbon bike (while waiting for my turn on a MTB during a demo) and was impressed. It was pretty comfy and obviously fast... but not $5K faster than my extremely comfy Ti roadie. Ti lasts, is strong and light and I won't worry about bashing it on rocks.

    Eventually I'll get a Ti MTB as my HT. Problem is, my Al bike is such a perfect fit and great - and comfortable - ride, I can't justify spending the money yet. And then when I do, I may have to take my Al frame to a custom builder and have them recreate it in Ti because I like it so much.

    Back on topic, if you can try a Niner SIR9, that'll be a good steel test.
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    Completely agree with trying out different bikes. I know a lbs that carries lynskey so maybe ill see if they have any demos I can throw a leg over.

    In regards to the questions about why custom...I want to start doing 12 and 24 hour races and I have weird geo that causes a lot of neck and shoulder pain. I've done a lot of tweaking to my cockpit and whatnot but have never found a sweet spot that's allowed me to reach a really comfortable riding position. I've tried multiple bikes (all day demos, friends bikes, carbon, all diff brands, etc) and have never really found a good fit. Thats why I'd like to work with a great builder who can possibly eliminate the riding discomfort. I know this might not be the answer either but I figure a custom frame can't be a bad investment either as long as I'm not going overboard. I'm trying to bargain hunt and find the best builder for the right price. But we'll see. A lot of times you get what you pay for

    Aluminums a great material but I don't want a custom frame out of it.

    Btw...how would you guys rank aluminum, steel, and ti as far as stiffness?

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    Also...one frame that really caught my eye was the new Titus Fireline 29er. Obvi it wont be custom but the price is amazing in comparison to the other ti quotes that I've gotten. So I don't know. I know Titus is listing it as more of a trail style bike as well so I don't know how that'd translate to my cross country style. Any thoughts on the geo of this bike?

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    Nothing beats a nice steel frame! IMO. They are works of art. Take a look at the NHMBS (National Handmade Bike Show) 99% of their bikes are steel. That should tell you something.

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    I meant NAHBS (North American Handmade Bike Show)

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    I may have missed it but not sure if you're talking rigid, HT, or full sus...I kinda assume rigid since you're btwn Fe and Ti.

    If you're going rigid I'd suggest a Chi-ti spaceframe...I've got a 24" MoJo spaceframe which is my go-to bike for everything except a couple of places here in SoCal which are really rough...I can't climb worth sh*t on a rigid frame in the really rough sections so I use a Sultan, but otherwise the Spaceframe is the best.

    The price, including a fork, is not bad ($3800), and JJ will work with you to get a setup that fits. If you're not sure, you could also try the steel version at $1500. The other plus is you won't have to wait. If you're really weirdly shaped it might not work, but otherwise it's a good option. Good luck.

  19. #19
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    Ridden both myself - steel SS / Ti SS, steel geared / Ti geared.......I liked the Ti better because I found it both comfortable and easier to "throw around" underneath me; I cut a bunch of weight with the current Ti 29er HT I'm running and it handles almost as nicely as my 26er (better for climbs)...........
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    Dan GSR- who are you going with for your custom?

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    I had a Cotic Soul in 853 steel and a Cotic Soda in Ti. At the time these were an almost identical design so it was great to compare. When I picked up the bargain Soda frame, my brother got the Soul for his bike and we could ride togehter and swap bikes. We both preferred the Soda as it was so light and had a wonderful lively responsive feel on our local forest trails. However when I took it to the Peak District (where the trails are a bit rocky) I gave myself a couple of real scares whilst descending. I discovered that the Soda frame wasn't stiff enough and felt rather out of control when things got bumpy.I think Cotic realised the original Soda was too wobbly as they completely re-designed the frame and had the new design built by Lynskey. I have not ridden the new Soda design so I can't comment on how that rides but I'm guessing the stiffness issue was addressed because a few months back I saw a Cy Turner lecture on Youtube where he discussed designing for steel and titanium and seemed to acknowledge the shortcomings of the original design whilst discussing the new one. Anyway my Soda was stolen and could not afford to replace it at the time so I had new Soul instead. After owning the Soda, I expected to be dissatisfied with the Soul but I actually found I was really enjoying it. I think that after my scare on Soda, I appreciated the stiffer more confident downhill qualities of the Soul.
    The Soul/Soda saga took place around 2008, after which I got into various suspension bikes. Most recently I had been riding a Turner Flux and was absolutely delighted with it as it combined what I liked best in all the other suspension bikes I'd tried. Even so I still was really curious to try a 29er hardtail. I got all fired up again when I read a review of the steel Indy Fab Deluxe 29er by Steve Worland in in back number of WMB. At the start of this year I was actually looking for a steel 29er when I spotted the El-Mar in Ti frame going cheap.
    Anyway the upshot is that the El-Mar Ti has been a big hit with me. In really rough situations it is not as capable and confident as the Flux, but even so I just love riding it.
    Last edited by Tea@Dimbola; 12-02-2012 at 01:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    People will chime in and tell you that it is more about how the frame is made, and there is merit to it. Especially if you go custom with a good builder, who can tailor your ride how you want. My first 29er was a steel frame and while very compliant I didn't like the front end wobble. I took this info to Quiring (who does steel, Ti, alu) who taliored a frame in Ti for me that ticked all the boxes. If you are going custom, have this converation with your builder who will advise you ..this is why you go to a good custom builder.
    This. A good builder can take what you like and don't like, your height/weight, your riding style, and craft a bike that will work for you.

    and another plug for Scott Quiring, he builds great frames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

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    It's very simple

    Competently designed/built frames out of ti and steel will ride exactly the same, and both will be plenty durable.

    The ti frame will cost $500-2000 more, depending on the manufacturer, and it'll be somewhere around a half pound lighter. It will never rust, but as long as you keep your steel frame in your shed or garage when you're not riding it and do some very basic maintenance, neither will the steel.

    In essence, you are buying rust protection, a little weight, and bling. If your budget for a bike is <$5k or so, ti makes no sense at all, since you'll be sacrificing componentry to afford the material (a $3k steel bike is XT/XTR - in many cases that will only buy you a frame in ti). Over $5k if you want what ti brings to the table, go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Competently designed/built frames out of ti and steel will ride exactly the same, and both will be plenty durable.

    The ti frame will cost $500-2000 more, depending on the manufacturer, and it'll be somewhere around a half pound lighter. It will never rust, but as long as you keep your steel frame in your shed or garage when you're not riding it and do some very basic maintenance, neither will the steel.

    In essence, you are buying rust protection, a little weight, and bling. If your budget for a bike is <$5k or so, ti makes no sense at all, since you'll be sacrificing componentry to afford the material (a $3k steel bike is XT/XTR - in many cases that will only buy you a frame in ti). Over $5k if you want what ti brings to the table, go for it.

    -Walt
    Pretty stoked you took the time to answer this

    I know you are one of the experts on the subject and therefore I kind of want your weigh in on steel maintenance for a person who doesn't know how to completely assemble and take apart a bike. My friends dad is a mechanic and works on/build ups my bikes for free. He's great at what he does (been offered many shop jobs) but he just does it on the side. I hate asking him to do extensive stuff though on my bikes as he's not getting paid for it, etc. What I'm asking concerns your suggestions on maintaining a steel frame. I live in SoCal so rain isn't really any issue for me. That said I ride in a lot of places with creek crossing and (while I could carry my bike over) they are awesome to ride through. Having said this, how much maintenance would you expect the frame needing? Does it really need to be completely stripped down and rebuilt every year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayseakay View Post
    Pretty stoked you took the time to answer this

    I know you are one of the experts on the subject and therefore I kind of want your weigh in on steel maintenance for a person who doesn't know how to completely assemble and take apart a bike. My friends dad is a mechanic and works on/build ups my bikes for free. He's great at what he does (been offered many shop jobs) but he just does it on the side. I hate asking him to do extensive stuff though on my bikes as he's not getting paid for it, etc. What I'm asking concerns your suggestions on maintaining a steel frame. I live in SoCal so rain isn't really any issue for me. That said I ride in a lot of places with creek crossing and (while I could carry my bike over) they are awesome to ride through. Having said this, how much maintenance would you expect the frame needing? Does it really need to be completely stripped down and rebuilt every year?
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  27. #27
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    My experience (of course nothing like Walts) with steel frames....30 y/o Italian steel frame flogged 5 days a week in all weather when I raced for a few years, and left mostly in storage till now. No rust except for a few little scratches on the surface. I was amazed really. now repainted and good as new. Another beater GT steel frame mid 90's I guess, left outside in all weather, a few differnt owners, and some home welding onthe drop out with only a few surface scratches of rust. Newest steel frame by Ionic/Dean painted by Spectrum rusted in the first year and badly so helped along with sweat. I ended up stripping it, removing braze-ons and repainting the offending spot myself cheaply and it will probbaly keep going a while longer. My advice with who ever you use is to make sure it isn't Ionic, and that they give you decent paint work. In my case I specified a primer which was not applied. You can search for my complaint thread on MTBR if oyu can be bothered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    My experience (of course nothing like Walts) with steel frames....30 y/o Italian steel frame flogged 5 days a week in all weather when I raced for a few years, and left mostly in storage till now. No rust except for a few little scratches on the surface. I was amazed really. now repainted and good as new. Another beater GT steel frame mid 90's I guess, left outside in all weather, a few differnt owners, and some home welding onthe drop out with only a few surface scratches of rust. Newest steel frame by Ionic/Dean painted by Spectrum rusted in the first year and badly so helped along with sweat. I ended up stripping it, removing braze-ons and repainting the offending spot myself cheaply and it will probbaly keep going a while longer. My advice with who ever you use is to make sure it isn't Ionic, and that they give you decent paint work. In my case I specified a primer which was not applied. You can search for my complaint thread on MTBR if oyu can be bothered.
    Thanks for that rundown. Good to know they are that durable.

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    I like steel a lot. I think there is something with the feel of it.

  30. #30
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    Steel is real - but go for a decent tubing, like Reynolds 853. Really good steel frames will be made from this tubing, which is lighter than a standard Cro Mo frame (I guess the steel is a bit stronger so they can make the tubing lighter).

    I have a Niner SIR9, which I ride rigid and SS, so can highly recommend this frame, although I admit to not having compared it with a Ti frame. That is next on my bucket list...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayseakay View Post
    Btw...how would you guys rank aluminum, steel, and ti as far as stiffness?
    Tubing diameter is the dominant parameter affecting stiffness.

    In terms of pure bending, stiffness is proportional to the modulus of elasticity of the material times the moment of intertia.

    The modulus of elasticity for steel is around 30 MPSI, compared to around 15.5 MPSI for titanium and 10 MPSI for aluminium so for a tube of fixed dimensions, steel is about twice as stiff as Ti and three times as stiff as Al.

    The dominant term in the calculation of moment of intertia is the outside diameter of the tube to the 4th power, meaning that if you double the OD of the tube, it becomes roughly 16 times stiffer.
    Last edited by andy f; 12-04-2012 at 01:30 PM.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayseakay View Post
    Btw...how would you guys rank aluminum, steel, and ti as far as stiffness?
    One thing you have to remember about stiffness is it can be both good and bad. A stiff bottom bracket is good because your power goes straight into making the bike move. A stiff headtube is good because you'll have precise steering.

    But... too stiff and your body will get beat up. I know a guy that has a 2012 Giant Rabobank road bike and he doesn't like riding it. It's too stiff for him. He wants comfort and the Rabo is a racing rocket. Anything over an two hours and he gets beat up.

    Carbon is good because they can make the frame stiffer and compliant and light and strong. It's harder to do that with metals. They make it stiff but the weight increases. They make it lighter but now it flexes.

    Also, just throwing it out there. My scandium frames blow away every steel frame I've ridden. They're lighter, stiffer in the bb and still seem smoother than steel. I can also feel every bike I've ridden flex except for the carbon frames.

    I don't think I'll ever buy a steel frame again. If I did it would just be because it's cool to me. It wouldn't be because it's light or stiff or had a better feel than any other material. I think the steel is real quote is absolutely bogus. Steel is cool in a kind of retro way but there's no way I'd choose it for a racing bike.

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    Nooo!!

    This is a common misunderstanding. Listen, it's all about vectors, or more simply:

    -To make your bb move side to side, there has to be a force applied that makes it move that way.
    -You generate this force when you pedal, because you're not a robot and you can't generate all your power in exactly the direction it need to go to move the pedals. If you could somehow generate no side to side forces while pedaling, you wouldn't see the BB move side to side no matter how flimsy your frame was.
    -If you have a very stiff frame, the bb will not deflect to the side as much, but that DOES NOT MEAN that any extra energy goes into propelling the bike forward. The force STILL goes into flexing the frame/bb sideways - it's just that since the frame is stiffer, it resists that force better. The end result in terms of watts to the ground is the same regardless of BB flex.

    That's not to say that super flexy is a good thing, but if you are buying a stiff bike because you think it's somehow going to make you faster/more efficient, you are throwing your money away.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    One thing you have to remember about stiffness is it can be both good and bad. A stiff bottom bracket is good because your power goes straight into making the bike move.
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  34. #34
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    Hahahaaaa.
    The old stiffer is better argument debunked.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    I don't think I'll ever buy a steel frame again. If I did it would just be because it's cool to me. It wouldn't be because it's light or stiff or had a better feel than any other material. I think the steel is real quote is absolutely bogus. Steel is cool in a kind of retro way but there's no way I'd choose it for a racing bike.
    I wasn't talking about racing. I don't race. I ride as fast as I can sometimes, but I want some degree of comfort too - which is where steel comes in. Steel IS real - for those of us that can't afford Ti or Scandium at least

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    I think fit is by far the most important thing, and if you're not comfortable on the bike, you're going to be miserable.

    That said, I have owned steel, carbon, aluminum, and titanium. I really feel titanium is the best material that you can buy assuming its done buy a quality builder. I have never had the luxury of owning a custom steel bike, but all my stock frames have either been too flexy in areas, or overly stiff. There is a huge difference in a Reynolds 853 and 4130 Chromo..and it would be very hard to make a chromo ride like an 853. I think titanium has a more "lively", "springy" lighter feel to it than steel.

    When I think a comfortable frame, I don't really think of carbon. Carbon is great for short track racing where weight and responsiveness are the main priority...but they typically don't have the same compliance as steel or titanium.

    I live on the coast where corrosion did play a part into my decision to go titanium, but even if that wasn't the case, i think after owning ti. I won't go back. In all reality, stock ti. frames don't have to be overly expensive, and in most cases comparable to the price of carbon but with much better resale value...if it ever came to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If you have a very stiff frame, the bb will not deflect to the side as much, but that DOES NOT MEAN that any extra energy goes into propelling the bike forward. The force STILL goes into flexing the frame/bb sideways - it's just that since the frame is stiffer, it resists that force better. The end result in terms of watts to the ground is the same regardless of BB flex.

    That's not to say that super flexy is a good thing, but if you are buying a stiff bike because you think it's somehow going to make you faster/more efficient, you are throwing your money away.

    -Walt
    Where does the extra energy go then? Why do we want a stiff BB area?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    Steel IS real - for those of us that can't afford Ti or Scandium at least
    First of all steel is awesome but so is aluminum, carbon, Titanium and even bamboo. It's all good.
    But regarding cost, my scandium cross frame was less than my Columbus steel and my Salsa HT was less than a steel Blizzard (853?).

  38. #38
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    Feel is what matters.

    You want stiff or flexy based on how you like a bike to *feel*. Some people like a super whippy frame like, say, an old Bonty racelite. Some folks like super stiff frames. Just a matter of feel and preference, sort of like how some people like super low tire pressure and others like their tires firmer, some folks like gripshift, some trigger, etc.

    You can find a zillion threads here where person A complains that a frame is too flexy and some person B responds and says they think it's super stiff. It's not a "good" or "bad" situation to have a certain frame stiffness unless you know the preferences (and size, and terrain, and suspension, etc) of the rider.

    If things get *too* flexy you can have drivetrain problems under power but it takes some serious underbuilding to make that happen and I'm hard pressed to think of any examples. Plenty of dudes who were 250+ pounds used to ride their tiny-tubed/noodly Ritcheys/Fats/Bontys/etc pretty hard 20 years ago, after all.


    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    Where does the extra energy go then? Why do we want a stiff BB area?
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  39. #39
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    I agree with everything you're saying but I want you to answer my question, where does the extra energy go? If I stomp on my crank arm on a soft frame, some of that energy will be absorbed by the bike in the form of flex correct? Now I stomp on the same crank arm but now it's on a stiff as hell frame, the bb does not move, where does my energy/force go? What is the result?

  40. #40
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    the way i see it, not sure if this is 100%
    but the force is still applied in the same "wrong" direction
    a stiffer bb will just deflect less
    you can't convert side load forces into a forward direction

  41. #41
    Eli Broccoli
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    Custom Ti > Custom steel > off the shelf ti > off the shelf steel.

    I think that tubing chosen by someone who knows what they're doing is more important than the material itself. To an extent. The nicest riding bicycle I've ever ridden was a custom steel bicycle that was lighter (frame wise) than my Ti bicycle!

  42. #42
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    It still goes into pushing the bb sideways. What do you not understand about that? The amount of deflection is irrelevant - whether you are pushing sideways on a stiff bike or a noodly one, you're applying the same amount of force - you just see more deflection on a flexy frame.

    Put another way: you cannot make your bike go forward by pushing it sideways, no matter how stiff your frame is.

    -W
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Put another way: you cannot make your bike go forward by pushing it sideways, no matter how stiff your frame is.

    -W
    but that is exactly the way a bike moves forward. You push on the crank that pulls the chain which turns the cassette which turns the wheel that makes the bike move forward.
    Any flex anywhere through that process results in wasted energy. No?
    I'm not arguing with you, I'm asking a question.

  44. #44
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    I'm sorry, but I can't explain it in any more basic a way than I already have.
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  45. #45
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    you are thinking about it the wrong way
    you can't change the direction of the force just by stiffening up the bb
    the force is still there you just can't feel the effects of it as much on a bike with a stiffer bb
    it is stiffer therefore it requires more energy to deflect it the same distance
    it is not transferring more energy for forward motion

    the only way to "fix" it would be to have a perfect pedal stroke
    which i don't think is humanly possible, everyone is going to twist the bb in the wrong axis by at little at least

  46. #46
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    Wow...where are the engineers that design and test bikes in a lab for a living when we need them? So you guys are saying that decreasing the amount of flex in the frame at the bb area (or where ever) does not result in an increase of oomf to the rear wheel? Oomf is a very technical term. Sorry.

    Seems like trying to remove a nail out of a board with a rubber hammer would be hard work.

    But that may not even be relevant at all.

    However having hard numbers to prove either side of this debate would be.
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  47. #47
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    it depends which axis you're talking about
    im talking about the z axis
    if we are talking about x or y, then yeah it should have a direct relationship with power output

  48. #48
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    I've ridden both Ti and Steel for years and I prefer Ti due to never having to worry about little rust issues. I never liked the rust colored water coming out of the drain holes on the steel after a rain ride.

    Both materials can be great but Ti is better overall imo.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy View Post
    Wow...where are the engineers that design and test bikes in a lab for a living when we need them? So you guys are saying that decreasing the amount of flex in the frame at the bb area (or where ever) does not result in an increase of oomf to the rear wheel? Oomf is a very technical term. Sorry.

    Seems like trying to remove a nail out of a board with a rubber hammer would be hard work.

    But that may not even be relevant at all.

    However having hard numbers to prove either side of this debate would be.
    How about trying to remove a nail from a board by hitting it sideways? Doesn't much matter if the hammer is rubber or steel.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  50. #50
    orthonormal
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    It's obvious to me that no force applied in a direction perpindicular to the plane of the crank arm's rotation is going to contribute to forward motion but I do wonder if we as riders tend to be more efficient at directing our input in the proper direction if there's less lateral motion at the BB? Maybe we adjust to that give or lack thereof. Or maybe I'm just full of sh!t.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

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