Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 58
  1. #1
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549

    Small Long travel 29ers?

    Must have 5 inches+ travel and 22.5 inch EFTT. What else besides the rumblefish?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: slowrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,730

    Tracer 29

    22.5 TT, I have one and it's pretty awsome, Foes has one with a 22.7 top tube and I think I'm going to change over to the Shaver 29 due to past experiences with Foes.

  3. #3
    Climbs = necessary evil
    Reputation: rogerfromco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    629
    The RIP9 has 5.5" with the 140mm fork and 23.3" TT length in the small frame. I just bought a large with the Talas fork and can drop it down to 110mm of travel for the long climbs.

  4. #4
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerfromco View Post
    The RIP9 has 5.5" with the 140mm fork and 23.3" TT length in the small frame. I just bought a large with the Talas fork and can drop it down to 110mm of travel for the long climbs.
    That's almost an inch too long. 22.5 is the max length we can work with. Or at least very close.
    Last edited by Jwind; 11-23-2012 at 08:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Climbs = necessary evil
    Reputation: rogerfromco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    629
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    That's almost an inch too long. 22.5 is the max length we can work with. Or at least very close.
    Not sure how EFTT compares to TT length, but on Niner's site, that measurement is from the seat post to the head tube.

  6. #6
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerfromco View Post
    Not sure how EFTT compares to TT length, but on Niner's site, that measurement is from the seat post to the head tube.
    That's EFTT (EFfective Top Tube) length. Actual TT length is really a meaningless measurement and generally isn't posted on manufactures websites.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: eurospek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,456
    Transition Covert 29er

    Small 21.2" Medium 22.2"
    konahonzo

  8. #8
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,272
    eff. TT on 29'ers is total grab-bag, due to the slack seat tubes typically used to create tire clearance without increasing chainstay length.

    I would look at the medium Transition Bandit 29'er. Feels a half or full size smaller than my medium Prime (23" ETT) with the same build.

  9. #9
    Carbon & Ti rule
    Reputation: muzzanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    5,395
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerfromco View Post
    The RIP9 has 5.5" with the 140mm fork and 23.3" TT length in the small frame. I just bought a large with the Talas fork and can drop it down to 110mm of travel for the long climbs.
    Hi the Rip9 is 4.5 inch,

    The WFO is 5.5 inch
    Raising money, my friend broke his neck Mtbing, Please Share link. http://givealittle.co.nz/cause/elliottkeys/donations

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: freighttrain48's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    169

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    940
    Turner made 25 size small Sultans.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: antonio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,977

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rollinrob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by antonio View Post

    I am 5'4 on a really good day and this bike fit bette rthan any other 29er I have tried, great standover and fits like a glove. It a very sweet ride.

  14. #14
    Dudette
    Reputation: petey15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,368
    Quote Originally Posted by rollinrob View Post
    I am 5'4 on a really good day and this bike fit bette rthan any other 29er I have tried, great standover and fits like a glove. It a very sweet ride.
    Ditto! This bike was the first full-suspension 29er that truly fit (I also own a Misfit Dissent, but that's a SS hardtail). I love everything about the Trance X 29er and the confidence it has given me. You should definitely put it on your short list.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    261

  16. #16
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by ALBM View Post
    This:

    Frames
    Just a thought, but posting geo on your website is a very helpful to the consumer

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hetsekr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    30
    good luck

  18. #18
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by hetsekr View Post
    good luck
    Umm, thanks ?

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,601
    Is 23.1 to long? If not Santa Cruz Tallbot LT
    Ibis Mojo 3
    Carver 420 TI
    Lenz Lunchbox punkass

  20. #20
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Is 23.1 to long? If not Santa Cruz Tallbot LT
    Sadly, I think so. :/

  21. #21
    Trail Junkie
    Reputation: dubdryver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,131
    If he's 5'4, he's not going to fit into a 23.5" TT, unless he's got a longer torso in proportion.
    I did a bike fit recently for a guy that is 5'4 and we ended up having to go with a 50mm stem
    and the saddle is all the way forward on the rails. This was on a small EMD (23.2 ETT). It wasn't an
    optimal fit, but that's the bike he built. I would have thought my TBc as a medium would have fit him better.
    SC Tallboy C
    Intense Spider 29 C
    Cervelo S2
    Trek Boone 5 Disc
    Spech Tricross Expert
    Raleigh RX 1.0

  22. #22
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by dubdryver View Post
    If he's 5'4, he's not going to fit into a 23.5" TT, unless he's got a longer torso in proportion.
    I did a bike fit recently for a guy that is 5'4 and we ended up having to go with a 50mm stem
    and the saddle is all the way forward on the rails. This was on a small EMD (23.2 ETT). It wasn't an
    optimal fit, but that's the bike he built. I would have thought my TBc as a medium would have fit him better.
    Well, it's for my fiance but you are totally right.

  23. #23
    Carbon & Ti rule
    Reputation: muzzanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    5,395
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    Well, it's for my fiance but you are totally right.
    How hard does she ride ?

    My wife is on a small Jet9 RDO, 5'3 & just loves it, I ride 1 to & it can hanle the ruff very well for a 100mm travel bike & it is light & pedals awesome.

    Maybe have a look at a Jet9 Carbon as a silghtly cheaper option.

    They also make it in a XS
    Raising money, my friend broke his neck Mtbing, Please Share link. http://givealittle.co.nz/cause/elliottkeys/donations

  24. #24
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    How hard does she ride ?

    My wife is on a small Jet9 RDO, 5'3 & just loves it, I ride 1 to & it can hanle the ruff very well for a 100mm travel bike & it is light & pedals awesome.

    Maybe have a look at a Jet9 Carbon as a silghtly cheaper option.

    They also make it in a XS
    We live in Moab. I'm starting to get concerned about it exploding .

    Seriously, I think she'd like a little more travel and I'm just not sure we want to pony up for the carbon to get the XS which is really what she's after.

  25. #25
    Trail Junkie
    Reputation: dubdryver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,131
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    Well, it's for my fiance but you are totally right.
    Believe it or not, my ex-gf (gf at the time) was in the same situation...but she is racing and on a carbon Niner HT..thats how I knew quickly kind how the fit was going to be. She's 5'4' on a small RDO...The XS's weren't available at the time.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of budget are you on for a frame? Companies like Vantana do custom.
    El Rey | Ventana Mountain Bikes USA

    Along with Lenz Sports...

    Also, the Banshee Prime (140mm travel) medium has a 22.8" TT. This coupled with a short stem, zero post, and some bars that have a decent sweep may be the ticket.
    Banshee Prime: All Mountain
    SC Tallboy C
    Intense Spider 29 C
    Cervelo S2
    Trek Boone 5 Disc
    Spech Tricross Expert
    Raleigh RX 1.0

  26. #26
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Custom is more than we want to spend. Especially considering how long (not long) bikes last in Moab.

    Banshee is a good idea except there is no dealer here and I was an owner of one of those V1 rune owners that had problems with their pivots. I know the prime is different, but my experience with that company leaves me wanting to give them a big FU. I'll admit it is a sweet bike. If anything, maybe too much bike for her. I'll admit, it's a nice ride!

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: freighttrain48's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    169
    why not the yeti sb95

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,601
    Have you considered a 650B?

    Also look at an Intense Spider 29 Comp.

    Carbon Fiber, 5 inches travel and small has a TT of 22.5
    Ibis Mojo 3
    Carver 420 TI
    Lenz Lunchbox punkass

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: eurospek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,456
    Quote Originally Posted by eurospek View Post
    Transition Covert 29er

    Small 21.2" Medium 22.2"
    konahonzo

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: slowrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,730

    650 b is a good thought

    I'm 5'6" and own a Tracer 29, I recently tested a Tracer 275 and that bike seems so much quicker, even with 1/2 inch more travel and 3 degrees slacker head angle. It would fit better.
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Have you considered a 650B?

    Also look at an Intense Spider 29 Comp.

    Carbon Fiber, 5 inches travel and small has a TT of 22.5

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    153

    Numbers can be misleading, try this one out

    I have a Med. Tallboy LTc. I'm 5'5", 28" inseam.

    I ride a 50mm stem, 750mm carbon bar.

    Check the pic.

    I had a small Nomad before. 1" difference in TT and WB.

    Sylvain
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  32. #32
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Man View Post
    I have a Med. Tallboy LTc. I'm 5'5", 28" inseam.

    I ride a 50mm stem, 750mm carbon bar.

    Check the pic.

    I had a small Nomad before. 1" difference in TT and WB.

    Sylvain
    Tallboy LT is pushing it but a possibility. Sadly, the seat tube is too long for her to use her 125mm dropper post wich is a major downer.

    The yeti is a possibility. So is 650b. Scott has a bunch of nice options this coming year.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    153

    This is our way down next...

    I have a 75mm Specialized Black. Don't need more than that. I hold my own with guys with battle armor and full DH bike. I'm not the fastest but also this is not a DH bike after all.

    So all mountain it is. How much do you really need to lower your seat. Most of the time, I lower mine about 30mm if I have to.

    S
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  34. #34
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Man View Post
    I have a 75mm Specialized Black. Don't need more than that. I hold my own with guys with battle armor and full DH bike. I'm not the fastest but also this is not a DH bike after all.

    So all mountain it is. How much do you really need to lower your seat. Most of the time, I lower mine about 30mm if I have to.

    S
    A specialized black? huh? How much do we lower our saddle in Moab? A lot and often. I have a 125mm KS post. I'm planning on getting the 150mm sometime soon. If I had to choose between disc brakes and a dropper post, I'd choose disc brakes but it would be close

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    153
    Specialized command post Blacklite. Ridden tons in Moab, including UPS, LPS and Porcupine as a loop from town as well as the Portal trail. Took a group for the Kokopelli from Fruita to Moab. Did become handy on Rose Garden Hill.

    75mm is plenty for me. All I am saying, is don't write yourself out of a great bike before you look at ALL the variables.

    Good luck!

  36. #36
    This place needs an enema
    Reputation: mikesee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    8,949
    I've ridden the Rumblefish a bit and it ain't a bad bike. No big manufacturer is making anything ~better for "Moab XC".

    But if you start looking at the smaller builders, you can probably improve on the geo of the 'fish pretty easily.

    A few pics here of The Missus on some of your backyard trails last week.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Uyx82Qn483vx1e2O3kcqIxltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uG4T5Ss1zJ4/ULL_4eS0LTI/AAAAAAAAhc4/h5Mpmkxx7I8/s800/IMG_8281.jpg" height="537" width="800" /></a>

    She's riding a size small LenzSport Mammoth.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/q21jFsICYvbsgvIJoIgBYxltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-24ez-pYD5p0/ULL_0VSXwxI/AAAAAAAAhcY/7I7yyeCvZ_E/s800/IMG_7798.jpg" height="455" width="800" /></a>

    She's fairly short-legged, and a KS 75mm post is slammed (all the way into the frame) to give her *just* the right amount of post extension. Whether your SO can get a 4" or 5" drop post to work on this frame depends a lot on her leg length and a little on which saddle she prefers.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SWod4Q6cgWQqEdw5H1bpkBltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NskVVXxKSh4/ULL_3d85bmI/AAAAAAAAhcw/ax1uPnfGYVc/s800/IMG_8191.jpg" height="537" width="800" /></a>

    Pretty sure hers is the first S Mammoth in existence. But I saw a few more in stock at my local (GJ, CO) LBS last week. Which means if you were in the neighborhood (Sam's run?) you could swing a leg over and kick the tires at least.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/j-HzAS7HZyDpeudwo_kscBltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=emb edwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-n1D1X5FSmUQ/ULL_zaIKlKI/AAAAAAAAhcQ/DxlHHvOTl0k/s800/IMG_7739.jpg" height="537" width="800" /></a>

    My SO is coming off of a 3" travel bike, and hasn't completely embraced the concept of the on-the-fly changes in geo that happen when you double the travel and start riding more aggressively.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Vkh_U4-TlXxDO3ue7K1NkRltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=embedweb site"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_3zabhUFiVo/ULL_1IXSDYI/AAAAAAAAhcg/D3nsnWxi72U/s800/IMG_8031.jpg" height="537" width="800" /></a>

    But riding in your backyard is helping that process along quickly.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZGT2x3nIjew9uR-osF0hYBltJjMXiDiNlir3tmyGpnU?feat=embedwebsite"><i mg src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6WS9DywcpJ4/ULL_2d5XGnI/AAAAAAAAhco/lH_8bCSbgDI/s800/IMG_8089.jpg" height="537" width="800" /></a>

    I only have the one bike/frame here to measure, but I'm happy to answer questions if this one makes your 'must look deeper' list.

    MC

  37. #37
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Man View Post
    Specialized command post Blacklite. Ridden tons in Moab, including UPS, LPS and Porcupine as a loop from town as well as the Portal trail. Took a group for the Kokopelli from Fruita to Moab. Did become handy on Rose Garden Hill.

    75mm is plenty for me. All I am saying, is don't write yourself out of a great bike before you look at ALL the variables.

    Good luck!
    I'm still confused. I'm looking for a bike, not a dropper post

    @mikesee thanks for heads up on the lenz. Have to take a closer look.

  38. #38
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,770

    Front center

    Ett does not mean much for longer travel, slack ht bikes. Try to figure out what front center she needs and go from there.

    Fwiw given the requirements I would look at smaller wheels. I think you are losing more than you're gaining with 29" wheels in this case.

    Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.com/blog/
    instagram.com/waltworks/

  39. #39
    Oh, I've GOT bike money
    Reputation: JACKL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,156
    Edited - I realized after I posted that the Motobecane is 100mm rear travel.

    Medium GT Sensor 9r is 22.73. 120 travel, 69.5 HTA.

    http://www.gtbicycles.com/media/uplo...%202013(1).pdf
    Sensor 9R Expert - Trail - Mountain - Bikes - 2013

    Good luck in your search.
    Last edited by JACKL; 11-26-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  40. #40
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Ett does not mean much for longer travel, slack ht bikes. Try to figure out what front center she needs and go from there.
    Why not? Where talking about reach here. Too long and you're stretched out. which sucks for an all mountainy type stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Fwiw given the requirements I would look at smaller wheels. I think you are losing more than you're gaining with 29" wheels in this case.
    Walt
    She like the big wheels. Feels they ride better in the chunk and rides more on them. That's all that counts IMO.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jncarpenter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    Why not? Where talking about reach here. Too long and you're stretched out. which sucks for an all mountainy type stuff.
    My thought as well. Reach is a far more valuable metric than FC...imho.

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="&#45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> ***To clarify, I am agreeing that the "ETT" measurement is irrelevant for a bike with offset/bent ST. I also feel the "reach" measurement (reach/stack), is a better gauge for bike fit than “ETT” or “Front Center”.***
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true" DefSemiHidden="true" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99" LatentStyleCount="267"> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]-->


  42. #42
    MTB B'dos
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    19,972
    I'd have to agree with JNC and the others who go by Reach. Although this is fairly new to me, it has worked out quite well in moving from the Paradox to the Prime. Reach on the Paradox was 446mm and on the Prime 472mm for the XL frames and I've settled on a 70mm stem for the Prime over 90mm for the Paradox, although I tried a 60mm, but felt it a tad too short - this goes to my thoughts that maybe a 65mm would be just perfect and would put the 2 frames within 1mm total reach.

    Jwind, I know some got left with a bad taste over the bushing issue, but don't let that dissuade you from looking at the Prime, it's a great bike - the ETT for the M is 22.8", reach 411mm, ST 17.5", which falls within your parameters. As to it being too much bike for your wife, not a chance, not if Moab and that sort of riding is your thing. If I remember it right, didn't you move her from an older bike to a nicer FS a couple years ago and it really boosted her confidence and riding? If that's you, then most assuredly the Prime would do that again - it most certainly did that for me.

    Fixed that for you, travel is 130mm not 140mm, but most run a 140mm fork on them as that's what they're designed around, well actual 546mm A2C.
    Quote Originally Posted by dubdryver View Post
    Also, the Banshee Prime (130mm travel) medium has a 22.8" TT. This coupled with a short stem, zero post, and some bars that have a decent sweep may be the ticket.
    Banshee Prime: All Mountain
    Last edited by LyNx; 11-27-2012 at 05:47 AM.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
    MTB Barbados
    My Phantom pics

  43. #43
    beater
    Reputation: evasive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,647

    Crossed wires

    I read that as Walt arguing against using ETT for fit, because that's the measurement that Jwind started the thread with. When Jwind responded with "we're talking about reach here" I wasn't sure whether he meant "reach" specifically as the reach/stack bike measurement, or just as a degree of how stretched out the cockpit fit is, since I don't think reach measurements have been mentioned yet in this thread - apologies if I'm wrong about that.

    I haven't spent much time wrapping my head around front center, although I understand it's the shortest distance between the BB and the front hub. That makes it fork dependent, obviously. Like JNC and LyNx, (and Walt) I agree that ETT isn't that useful for predicting how a bike in this class will fit. Reach is the first number I look at now.
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

    Riding in Helena? Everything you need to know, right here.

  44. #44
    Powered by ice cream.
    Reputation: Enel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,305
    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I haven't spent much time wrapping my head around front center, although I understand it's the shortest distance between the BB and the front hub. That makes it fork dependent, obviously. Like JNC and LyNx, (and Walt) I agree that ETT isn't that useful for predicting how a bike in this class will fit. Reach is the first number I look at now.
    Front center is most useful when comparing between two of the same type of bikes. It varies wildly, however with different front ends.

    I had a short travel hardtail, mid travel FS bike, and rigid all set up with nearly identical reach: when measuring front center it varied by three to four inches. The FS bike had by far the shortest ETT, but the longest reach and by far the longest FC.

    Long story short: use reach to get your cockpit sizing. After that, compare the geometry on similar class bikes with close to the same reach to pick the one you prefer. By similar, I mean same configuration and travel, otherwise the comparison is pretty worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  45. #45
    Paste eater
    Reputation: Jwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,549
    The distance from center of seatpost to center of headtube. Call it whatever you want. I'm no bike builder, but that's the measurement the ride is responsible for spanning with their body. And yes, I know, from there the stem length will add distance, but that's flexible. The former is not.

  46. #46
    Powered by ice cream.
    Reputation: Enel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    The distance from center of seatpost to center of headtube. Call it whatever you want. I'm no bike builder, but that's the measurement the ride is responsible for spanning with their body. And yes, I know, from there the stem length will add distance, but that's flexible. The former is not.
    Only when seated. Reach is the distance (horizontal, center of BB to center of HT) you span when standing. Both are important, but at different times.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  47. #47
    beater
    Reputation: evasive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    The distance from center of seatpost to center of headtube. Call it whatever you want. I'm no bike builder, but that's the measurement the ride is responsible for spanning with their body. And yes, I know, from there the stem length will add distance, but that's flexible. The former is not.
    That's the ETT. But it's dependent on the seat tube angle, and what a number of us are getting at is that reach is a better measurement to consider with modern frame design. My hardtail has an ETT 0.5" longer than my FS bike, but the FS bike has a longer feeling cockpit; the reach is longer. In that case, the ETT doesn't do a very good job of predicting how the bike fits me.

    This illustration is pretty good for showing the difference between reach and ETT.

    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

    Riding in Helena? Everything you need to know, right here.

  48. #48
    MTB B'dos
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    19,972
    Actually Jwind, that measurement is not a good one to use if moving from one frame intended for say XC to another more Trail/AM oriented as the angles will change and that doesn't take that into account. If on say her current bike the STA was 74* and then she's looking at a bike with a 72* STA, going by ETT she would end up with a smaller cockpit because she would have to run her saddle further forward on the rails to end up in the same position relative to the BB as on her previous bike and therfor would have to run a longer stem and/or wider bar.

    - ETT is just a horizontal measurement, it does not take into consideration where your saddle is relative to the BB and that is something that should be permanent as you don't want to be changing how far behind the BB you sit to make the bike fit, that's what stem length changes are for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    The distance from center of seatpost to center of headtube. Call it whatever you want. I'm no bike builder, but that's the measurement the ride is responsible for spanning with their body. And yes, I know, from there the stem length will add distance, but that's flexible. The former is not.
    Last edited by LyNx; 11-27-2012 at 10:10 AM.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
    MTB Barbados
    My Phantom pics

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LB412's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    920
    Off topic...

    Im 5'10 and trying to decide between a M or L TB LTc. Shop is pushing a M with a slightly longer stem and a saddle adjust. I rode a friends M on a 5 mile trail and it felt a bit cramped when climbing. Though this was without any adjustments. Also, I use flat pedals and couldn't shake the feeling that my feet would contact the front wheel on aggressive turns. Not sure if the latter would change much with a 1" size increase. I am also new to 29s so this could be the norm and something that goes away with more time on the bike.

    Thanks in advance for the input

  50. #50
    ready to ride
    Reputation: mattnmtns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    837
    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Off topic...

    Im 5'10 and trying to decide between a M or L TB LTc. Shop is pushing a M with a slightly longer stem and a saddle adjust. I rode a friends M on a 5 mile trail and it felt a bit cramped when climbing. Though this was without any adjustments. Also, I use flat pedals and couldn't shake the feeling that my feet would contact the front wheel on aggressive turns. Not sure if the latter would change much with a 1" size increase. I am also new to 29s so this could be the norm and something that goes away with more time on the bike.

    Thanks in advance for the input
    I'm 5'10" and ride a M TB. Kind of right on the cusp of the M and L. In the end I went with the M with a 100mm stem. Just felt better to me. FWIW that is what the shop owner was pushing as well. He is 5'10" and he said thats what he would ride. I know the TB Lt is slightly different geometry but its a little bit larger so I would say the same pretty much applies. I also ride flats, you think the tire is close but I have never had an issue. I'd have to have my feet near the heels to actually hit.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •