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  1. #1
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    Is the single pivot design out of date?

    For example, the rumblefish is on its last year and trek has replaced it with the rocker Fuel EX 29er. I know the newer designs offer more linear response, but in actual riding Is there really a large difference between the single pivot and more contemporary designs if one does apply some value to simplicity.

  2. #2
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    Re: Is the single pivot design out of date?

    The abp/full floater is still basically a single pivot. It just has floating shock mounts and a concentric rear pivot instead of above the chain stay.
    http://Theclydeblog.org Big guy cycling product tester

  3. #3
    I Tried Them ALL... Moderator
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    Yes, it's dated, but it works great still....thanks to ABP.
    "The mind will quit....well before the body does"

  4. #4
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    Re: Is the single pivot design out of date?

    And remember. FSR is old also. So is GTs iDrive.


    They all work really well.
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  5. #5
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    I think single pivot designs are still popular for XC FS bikes for the lightweight and simple design. Seems like horst link four bar suspension have also been around a long time, but there are plenty of new versions of that design hitting the market, particularly in AM or Enduro bikes, I assume because it's a heavy duty linkage that allows for more suspension travel.

  6. #6
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    I agree the single pivot is still a pretty good option for XC type bike. It's cheap, light weight and does not require much thought. Improving shock technology over the last few years has also done a reasonable job of improving the poformance of this platform.
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  7. #7
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    I had a chance to ride a few older ones, the Heckler being among my favorites there. I feel like it really relies on having the right shock tune to feel right, and the mid-travel plushness has to be balanced well against making the tail feel rigid enough while pedaling - but with the newer Fox CTD units I was really impressed with how good that was. The travel isn't going to be great with those setups, and I agree that the four-link's ability to have bigger travel with the small chainstays (that help compensate for the 29er wagon wheel-iness) will keep that a very common design, and the CTD shocks are just plain good across the board.

    I think the biggest price argument that has wound up hurting the older designs is that the cost of the frame between an older, dated design, and a newer setup like VPP/DWLink/EccentricSwivel is only like 8% of the overall price of the bike. Why would people want older technology on a top end bike, if all they'd need to give up is a couple hundred dollars to get the latest and greatest.

    The components on the bike are so much of the cost and value, updating the frame is basically trivial in terms of cost. The only cases I see it working really well is the superlight XC setup, where mechanical simplicity which means lighter weight.

  8. #8
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    After having owned an Ellsworth Isis and Yeti 575 (single pivot designs) and now own a Giant Trance (floating-pivot design) I would say yes, it is out of date. The Trance pedals much more efficiently, and the suspension doesn't stiffen up when braking.
    "If you suck, that means I'm better. The more you suck, the better I am. So. Let me count the ways you suck." - Scribb

  9. #9
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    Re: Is the single pivot design out of date?

    While it may brake better, most if not all modern single pivots are more effecient climbers. Not plush though
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  10. #10
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    the only thing more outdated than a single pivot is a hardtail, both require significant retardation to purchase

  11. #11
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    People have been declaring single pivots dead for at least 15 years now. They aren't going anywhere.

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  12. #12
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    My Satori does not feel out of date.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Is the single pivot design out of date?-0825121244a.jpg  


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Yes, it's dated, but it works great still....thanks to ABP.
    And in addition to that, it's a linkage-controlled single pivot. Before specialized changed the meaning of "4-bar", we would have called it a "4-bar", because there are 4 main parts, frame, linkage, seatstay, chainstay. Typically this allows for a very controlled ride with a good shock-rate, as opposed to simple single pivot bikes that have more drawbacks.

    With one chainring up front, you can get a fairly optimal pivot placement with such a design. With more chanirings it gets a little more difficult, but ABP and two-ring setups mitigate this to a large effect.

    Although I may feel that some designs are a little better, these types of single-pivot bikes are still darn good and I wouldn't pass them up unless they were either simple single pivots like old cannondales, santa-cruz bikes, etc, or very low-pivot linkage bikes like Lenz, Kona, some others. With the former you get a less active ride due to the chain tension that tends to stiffen and cause problems maintaining traction up rough uphills, and with the latter it tends to bob so much that they use shocks with very stiff compression settings, kind of creating the same problem in a different way.

    But, a decently designed single pivot, especially with a one-ring setup (lots of DH bikes, a couple new single-ring XX1 setups) works great and some of the well designed bikes like the ABPs are also pretty darn good.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  14. #14
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    do u still ride an FXR? those were pretty rad

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle View Post
    do u still ride an FXR? those were pretty rad
    That was a horrible bike (linkage actuated SP). Horrible shock that was sent back 3x. Horrible scissor-link that used like a 6" long bolt that kept bending (because it was 6" long), and very limited ability to actually put in a good shock, although I got a DHX in there. I went through a few other mediocre bikes before the turners, which were actually designed pretty well for a change. The one good thing about the foes was that every design aspect was intended to make it laterally "stiff", but other than that they dropped the ball.

    My enduro 29er doesn't pedal exceptionally well, just "ok" up steep hills, it's definitely no better than many single-pivot bikes...contrary to what specialized would like people to believe.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  16. #16
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    You could call it dated or you could call it timeless. It's simple and it works well, especially with a platform-valved shock. I think it's still a solid choice for a lot of riders...especially those who follow the KISS principle.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle View Post
    the only thing more outdated than a single pivot is a hardtail, both require significant retardation to purchase
    I hope you're being sarcastic.
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  18. #18
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    Single pivot bikes are a proven design. If you look at many full suspension bikes today they're linkage driven single pivots. They're are many single pivot bikes for DH, XC, AM, etc. To see say single pivot is dead is silly. Yes its been around for awhile but its continues to be improved upon and it'll always be around.

    For example, the 90s saw URT single pivots (unified rear triangle). That evolved into more advanced single pivots like the SC Heckler, Butcher, Yeti 575, Spec. Status, the list goes on.
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  19. #19
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    Riders on linkage-activated single pivots are a) kicking butt in every mtb discipline at elite levels; b) having fun on their bikes.

    So no, single pivots are not outdated, despite boutique mini-link marketing and it's syncophants to the contrary.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle View Post
    the only thing more outdated than a single pivot is a hardtail, both require significant retardation to purchase
    +100! Absurd threads necessitate absurd replies

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeNeverwinter View Post
    And remember. FSR is old also. So is GTs iDrive.


    They all work really well.
    And so is VPP and for that, most mini-link designs. What has improved most suspension bikes is not the design but the shocks and the geometry. That has made the absolute biggest difference. Single pivot bikes can still be very, very good. The Super-light is still one the most under-rated bikes out there.
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  22. #22
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    Go ahead, I double dare you to tell the Atherton's that single pivot is dead.
    The cake is a lie.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    And so is VPP and for that, most mini-link designs. What has improved most suspension bikes is not the design but the shocks and the geometry. That has made the absolute biggest difference. Single pivot bikes can still be very, very good. The Super-light is still one the most under-rated bikes out there.
    Disagree with that, at the very least the first generation superlight was a pretty flexy semi-active design. The elevated chainstays and "swingarm post" style allows the rear end to twist without much more than the shock to try and keep it straight. Although you can make the main pivot larger, it doesn't really do a lot to keep the rear end from twisting, as it's a giant lever. This is one area where linkage bikes are often quite a bit better, although it's possible to screw those up too and make a flexy bike. Then you add the semi-active nature and usually aggressive climbing aids, and you got something that is fairly far from optimal. Is it horrible? Well no, people ride it and do ok. Is there much better stuff available? Yep.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    The Super-light is still one the most under-rated bikes out there.
    Agree

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Disagree with that, at the very least the first generation superlight was a pretty flexy
    I have heard of people with larger Superlights having flex issues, but my medium is stiffer than my VPP 29er.

    semi-active design.
    Semi active is simply an incorrect label. Unless you want to call any bike that uses chain tension to provide anti-squat as semi active. Which would be most of them.

    It is true that there is more brake squat on the Superlight and similar designs. Which can be good or bad, depending on the situation, or your preference.

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