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  1. #1
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    Scalpel 29er rumor: true? Anyone got more info?

    I was in my LBS yesterday drooling over the 2011 Flash Carbon 29ers, and the manager casually mentioned that Cannondale will be launching a full-suspension Scalpel 29er in the spring of 2011. He said it WILL have a pivot near the BB, rather than the flexible chainstays on the 26er version. Anyone else heard this? Any more info? I'm considering holding out on the Flash purchase based on this rumor....

  2. #2
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    I would consider it.

  3. #3
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    Was told from Cannondale they will be making a Scalpel 29 as a 2011 1/2 model.

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    Yes, next year they are ready to indroduce. They re just not sure what RS they will go with or if there will be multiple offerings.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird
    I was in my LBS yesterday drooling over the 2011 Flash Carbon 29ers, and the manager casually mentioned that Cannondale will be launching a full-suspension Scalpel 29er in the spring of 2011. He said it WILL have a pivot near the BB, rather than the flexible chainstays on the 26er version. Anyone else heard this? Any more info? I'm considering holding out on the Flash purchase based on this rumor....
    I am curious where he heard this. The whole point of the Scalpel is not having that pivot and the mass savings etc. It could be with the longer stays of the 29er, it would not be strong enough since the Scalpel's chainstays are basically cantilevers.
    Anyway, very cool to hear they are finally doing this, and I would definitely wait this out especially if you are interested in racing.

  6. #6
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    I heard that it will happen. There is a good chance I may sell my Tallboy.

  7. #7
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    Really...

    Since the advent of 29er popularity I've said the Scalpel platform would make for an ideal 29er xc bike.

    I'm hoping they keep the pivotless chainstays as otherwise it will be just another high maintenance, overweight FS 29er.

    For example, look at the Tallboy. Are you really going to feel the benefits of an advanced suspension design over the distance of 3 to 4" of travel (3" after sag)? Doubt it. Yet, you still get all the hassle, slop, and weight of a pile of pivots.

    I'm a believer in short travel, simple suspension. Long travel, advanced suspension.

    A 29er Scalpel with 4" of pivotless chainstay travel would be the ticket.

  8. #8
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    if the big c was smart they would intro a 29er line with versions of a scalpel, prophet and gemini!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Since the advent of 29er popularity I've said the Scalpel platform would make for an ideal 29er xc bike.

    I'm hoping they keep the pivotless chainstays as otherwise it will be just another high maintenance, overweight FS 29er.

    For example, look at the Tallboy. Are you really going to feel the benefits of an advanced suspension design over the distance of 3 to 4" of travel (3" after sag)? Doubt it. Yet, you still get all the hassle, slop, and weight of a pile of pivots.

    I'm a believer in short travel, simple suspension. Long travel, advanced suspension.

    A 29er Scalpel with 4" of pivotless chainstay travel would be the ticket.
    I agree with you Miker J except I do think the Scalpel suspension is advanced. My opinion in the matter is that no matter how much travel, any bike will benifit from handlebar mounted damping control. My Cdale Rush for instance has 140mm in the rear and I can adjust it to out of the saddle stiff to downhill plush in less than 1/2 a second and it has been a very successful racing machine as well as a very sweet technical terrain bicycle. But, for a super lightweight racing 29er, the Scalpel would be the ticket. Definitely not as versitile as the Rush, but very race capable in the rough when lap times are the only concern. Personally, I don't see another racing bike that would touch it or the 26er version for that matter. What wheel size you choose depending on the terrain and or rider.

  10. #10
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    Pivotless Scalpel 29" with Syntace X142 rear axle....that's the way to go for good rear triangle stiffness while keeping the traditional suspension system of the Scalpel

  11. #11
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    Yep...

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I agree with you Miker J except I do think the Scalpel suspension is advanced. My opinion in the matter is that no matter how much travel, any bike will benifit from handlebar mounted damping control. My Cdale Rush for instance has 140mm in the rear and I can adjust it to out of the saddle stiff to downhill plush in less than 1/2 a second and it has been a very successful racing machine as well as a very sweet technical terrain bicycle. But, for a super lightweight racing 29er, the Scalpel would be the ticket. Definitely not as versitile as the Rush, but very race capable in the rough when lap times are the only concern. Personally, I don't see another racing bike that would touch it or the 26er version for that matter. What wheel size you choose depending on the terrain and or rider.
    Agree on the handlebar lockout for a xc race bike.

    When I say "advanced" its a bit tongue-in-cheek".

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Since the advent of 29er popularity I've said the Scalpel platform would make for an ideal 29er xc bike.

    I'm hoping they keep the pivotless chainstays as otherwise it will be just another high maintenance, overweight FS 29er.

    For example, look at the Tallboy. Are you really going to feel the benefits of an advanced suspension design over the distance of 3 to 4" of travel (3" after sag)? Doubt it. Yet, you still get all the hassle, slop, and weight of a pile of pivots.

    I'm a believer in short travel, simple suspension. Long travel, advanced suspension.

    A 29er Scalpel with 4" of pivotless chainstay travel would be the ticket.
    Second that sentiment. Think 4" of travel is reasonable with that design?
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  13. #13
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    Don't know....

    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy
    Second that sentiment. Think 4" of travel is reasonable with that design?

    Isn't the current Scalpel 4" out back? While I've not ridden one I've not heard any complaints.

  14. #14
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    My guess is that Cannondale, like usual, wants to get it perfect before they release it.

  15. #15
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    I used to get a swelling in my pants at the mention of a Scalpel 29er, I'd see rumors of prototypes on here, other sites and from reps. But each model year would come and go and there would be no Scalpel 29er, so I got a Leviathan to suit my lightweight XC needs. That was great for a while, but then Specialized got on the ball and made the Epic 29er, so I got that and no longer care if they make the Scalpel 29er. I really don't care now that the S-Works Epic 29er exists. The advantages I saw that were exclusive to Cannondale (Lefty, BB30, oversized headtube, etc.) have all been addressed or improved by Specialized. Plus, the Scalpel scheduled to come out next year isn't going to be the 29er version of the 26er XC race weapon, its likely to be more like a 29er RZ120-lite. I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've heard about it, it doesn't sound like it.

  16. #16
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    Really....

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    I used to get a swelling in my pants at the mention of a Scalpel 29er, I'd see rumors of prototypes on here, other sites and from reps. But each model year would come and go and there would be no Scalpel 29er, so I got a Leviathan to suit my lightweight XC needs. That was great for a while, but then Specialized got on the ball and made the Epic 29er, so I got that and no longer care if they make the Scalpel 29er. I really don't care now that the S-Works Epic 29er exists. The advantages I saw that were exclusive to Cannondale (Lefty, BB30, oversized headtube, etc.) have all been addressed or improved by Specialized. Plus, the Scalpel scheduled to come out next year isn't going to be the 29er version of the 26er XC race weapon, its likely to be more like a 29er RZ120-lite. I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've heard about it, it doesn't sound like it.
    Next year I'm likely going to get back into xc racing and was hoping C'dale was there with a 29er Scalple. Locally I have a Spec rep who is good to work with so may end up going that route. (Or despite what I mentioned in the above post, a Tallboy.)

    The main thing that has me wanting a C'dale is the Lefty - for its weight, that fork is great. Also, I like pivotless stays. Less hassle, squeaks and creaks.

    What is it that won you over on the Epic?

    Thanks.

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    however Cannondale is late !!

    Specialized with its Epic carbon 29er will be a best seller , eating a big slice of market of hi-end light 29er bikes


    in the 29er set up , Lefty is still a benchmark , maybe this thing will help a middle season model ...

    i wait for this Scalpel... in september the 2011 26" model will be mine , but ready to be reselled when 29" is landing

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Next year I'm likely going to get back into xc racing and was hoping C'dale was there with a 29er Scalple. Locally I have a Spec rep who is good to work with so may end up going that route. (Or despite what I mentioned in the above post, a Tallboy.)

    The main thing that has me wanting a C'dale is the Lefty - for its weight, that fork is great. Also, I like pivotless stays. Less hassle, squeaks and creaks.

    What is it that won you over on the Epic?

    Thanks.
    I had a DLR2 Carbon 110 Lefty and a PBR Carbon 130 Lefty on my Leviathan. The weight and the torsional stiffness were great, but I was resetting the bearings pretty often. Also, the Specialized has the OS28 endcaps/fork legs which help a great deal with torsional stiffness and a custom carbon crown/steerer to help get the weight closer to a Lefty.
    The biggest factor however, was the Brain. Some people don't like it (I suspect they didn't have it setup properly), but for me it sealed the deal.
    Now, with the S-Works, you've got a carbon frame, more travel, Brain fork, carbon rims, x142 rear axle, etc.
    I don't see Cannondale trumping that anytime soon (from what I've heard).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    I don't see Cannondale trumping that anytime soon (from what I've heard).

    Awww, come on, you can't just leave us hangin' like that! What have you heard? I gather that you don't believe the Scalpel 29er will be an XC-race focused rig like the 26er. Care to elaborate? (Please?)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird
    Awww, come on, you can't just leave us hangin' like that! What have you heard? I gather that you don't believe the Scalpel 29er will be an XC-race focused rig like the 26er. Care to elaborate? (Please?)
    Nothing more than what has been mentioned earlier in this thread. I heard its going to have a pivot and be closer to a lightweight RZ120 than the 29er version of the current 26er Scalpel. Based on this, I don't think "ultimate XC race machine" is their goal.

  21. #21
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    For 2011 the Scalpel 26" travel has been reduced to 80mm. The original design was a little less than that (2.7"), but took tons of podiums (Sauser riding it helped).

    I think going back to 80mm from 100mm is wise; the 2008 design was known for being a little noodly with nothing but Propedal to prevent that. It's an elegant softtail design and 3" should be perfect, especially for a 29er.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Isn't the current Scalpel 4" out back? While I've not ridden one I've not heard any complaints.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    I heard its going to have a pivot and be closer to a lightweight RZ120 than the 29er version of the current 26er Scalpel.
    Not sure where you heard this, but this is good news for me. I'de rather have a little more travel for ultimate speed than be super light weight for "ultimate racing". I'm sure if Cdale has anything to do with it, it will still be super light weight in its class....light enough to race and certainly lighter than my Sultan.

  23. #23
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that pivotless suspensions keep the speed of the compression of the shock the same through the travel, and all the new suspension designs are designed with the pivot so that the rate of shock travel is different depending on where the suspension is in it's travel. This makes it easier to keep the shock working nicely in the first inch and the last inch.

  24. #24
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    A pivotless full suspension frame is what many call a softtail. Cannondale pushed that theory to the limit with its 4" of pivotless suspension, and I think its move back to 3" of travel acknowledged that; it's back in the short-travel realm where softtails do their thing well.

    To answer your assertion with a question, when you pull the arrow back on a (non-compound) bow, does the stress of the draw stay the same or does it get harder? And that's a nice feeling to have on the trail. Progressive suspension has some very attractive characteristics without a lot of fancy engineering like DW-Link.

    Quote Originally Posted by gtluke
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that pivotless suspensions keep the speed of the compression of the shock the same through the travel, and all the new suspension designs are designed with the pivot so that the rate of shock travel is different depending on where the suspension is in it's travel. This makes it easier to keep the shock working nicely in the first inch and the last inch.

  25. #25
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    light or not light as stock versions, will be not hard to have a 8,9 kg sull suspension 29er

    but i guess can be done a built close to 8 kg too

  26. #26
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    A scalpel is a race proven heritage. Would surprise me if they didn't incorporate the pivotless chain stay. Granted, we have all been bagging on C-Dale for various reasons (including myself) but the bikes they made for 2011 at the release in Utah are top shape stuff. Granted, we all wanted the scalpel 29er right now but I feel confident that they will get it right before releasing to the public. Rather that, than say a Hi Fi 29er which snapped on a customer of mine I ride/race with 3 times this year.
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    Any updates on a Scapel 29er? The 2011 26" Scalpels look like great values. Should I hold off on a Flash 29er waiting for this bike to become a reality?

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    Nothing new at Interbike. Did someone ask for an AM bike with two shocks? Over/Uber-mountain, this is the best you can come up with?

    Cannondale is lllllllllllaaaaame for not building a bike that would sell like hotcakes and put them at the vanguard of industry press again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizzaflyer
    Any updates on a Scapel 29er? The 2011 26" Scalpels look like great values. Should I hold off on a Flash 29er waiting for this bike to become a reality?
    FWIW - just this past Sunday my local Cannondale dealer told me they scrapped the 29er Scalpel. I also had a buddy scouting the Cannondale booth at Interbile and he said he did not see or hear a peep about it.

    Bummer huh?

  30. #30
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    tallies

    Until C-dale starts making bikes for people over 6' 3" I'm on the sidelines

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastwood9
    Until C-dale starts making bikes for people over 6' 3" I'm on the sidelines
    I hear you there beastwood.
    On another note, my dealer told me Cannondale did not even go to Interbike.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I hear you there beastwood.
    On another note, my dealer told me Cannondale did not even go to Interbike.
    Were they at the dirt demo?

    I know they havent done the Inside portion of I-bike for many years as they do a special event on their own. However, last time I was at I-bike, they did participate in Dirt Demo day.

    They are not the only mkanufacturer that works this way either, as Trek did pretty much the same thing.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird
    I was in my LBS yesterday drooling over the 2011 Flash Carbon 29ers, ....
    Sizes and models?

    It's a p!55er when you have a bike on order and hear that they are sitting on shop floors elsewhere

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiRyder
    Were they at the dirt demo?

    I know they havent done the Inside portion of I-bike for many years as they do a special event on their own. However, last time I was at I-bike, they did participate in Dirt Demo day.
    I alost certain they were at outerbike...not sure about the inner. Just calling BS on Stahr_Nut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I alost certain they were at outerbike...not sure about the inner. Just calling BS on Stahr_Nut.
    Sorry, bad wording on my part and good catch our your's. Not knowing Cannondale doesn't attend Interbike I sent my buddy who was going an e-mail asking him to stop by the Cannondale booth. When he told me he didn't see anything I didn't realize that meant there was nothing at all there from Cannondale to see. Although he did mention before he went that his direct contact would not be there, I didn't know that meant no one from cannondale goes.

  36. #36
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    Any more news on Scalpel 29'er?

    Has anyone heard anything more on this?

  37. #37
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    Scalpel 29 idea scrapped.

    According to a C'Dale insider, the Scalpel 29 idea has been scrapped due to the leverage ratio issues regarding the flexing stays and damper rates which they couldn't get worked out to their satisfaction.

    However..............

    There will be a FS design, probably XC oriented, less than 120mm travel, new design, carbon, coming in 2012.
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    Garbage, I say, but hey, it's their loss more than mine.

    There are at least two 29er softtails with 4" of travel. They're from boutique shops, Funk and Generic. There are at least 3 29er softtails with 1-1.5" of travel. From a company with Cannondale's resources, and a proven design already, it's not black magic to make a slightly larger wheel work.

    Come on. Again, their loss, big time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    According to a C'Dale insider, the Scalpel 29 idea has been scrapped due to the leverage ratio issues regarding the flexing stays and damper rates which they couldn't get worked out to their satisfaction.

    However..............

    There will be a FS design, probably XC oriented, less than 120mm travel, new design, carbon, coming in 2012.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    According to a C'Dale insider, the Scalpel 29 idea has been scrapped due to the leverage ratio issues regarding the flexing stays and damper rates which they couldn't get worked out to their satisfaction.

    However..............

    There will be a FS design, probably XC oriented, less than 120mm travel, new design, carbon, coming in 2012.
    Stoked!
    I'm sure it will be a good one. Thanks and keep us posted on any more details Ted.

  40. #40
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    I like the idea of a carbon 29er with Lefty and whatever else they can come up with. Hopefully, it will not be twitchy geometry but fast and somewhat stable.

  41. #41
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    oh boy another single pivot or single w/chainstay pivot- crap those things are everywhere.


    oh well, back to a hardtail or dw 4" travel non-canondale..their loss

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    Bummer. Was really hoping for a Cannondale 29er Scalpel. Surprising to think it wouldn't work out. More reason to lean towards a Moots with their titanium pivot point. I think that would be the closest feel to what I envision a 29er Scalpel feeling like.
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    any news ???

  44. #44
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    The Scalpel being their "Flagship" model, they probably said it would be scrapped so that people would stop hounding them for information. I do see it in their interest to build a Scalpel model and a RZ trail model. They are entering the game late, and already lost out of quite a bit of revenue thus far. Last I have heard which was a about a months ago is that there will be a release of a FS 29er..but no explanation of what, but based on sales, and what the racers actually ride..it should be a Scalpel...they are still winning races, a lot of them!
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  45. #45
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    Where we at with this...Sea Otter?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherpa2000
    Where we at with this...Sea Otter?
    Probably not, rumors would probably leak out sometime in the summer if it is true. Then maybe a teaser like what they did the the Over Mountain category right before the 2012 pre-order season starts. Of course this is all my guess base upon how the jekyll and claymore were released. I first heard some slight rumors from the Norcal rep at the Tour of California, then a few months later the teasers were released.

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    maybey the new owners of c'dale are holding the funds back for reaserch and devolpment? i mean look who owns them now look at the 2011 29er's pretty bland on the paint sceme's white and black with alittle red and blue? a far cry from 2010 my local cannondale dealer seems to think cannondale is headed down the bad path. i hope not but im just sayin.c'dale may be on a tight leash

  48. #48
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    cannondale is sooo missing on sales without a carbon light weight suspension 29er.
    Out riding, leave a message

  49. #49
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    I'm not holding my breath either. I'm hearing this FS 29er Cannondale rumors for several years now and nothing happened so far.

    Can't understand for the life of me why Cannondale is so late to the game. Even Santa Cruz, a company that said not to long ago they never make a 29er, has a FS 29er now.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe1971
    maybey the new owners of c'dale are holding the funds back for reaserch and devolpment? i mean look who owns them now look at the 2011 29er's pretty bland on the paint sceme's white and black with alittle red and blue? a far cry from 2010 my local cannondale dealer seems to think cannondale is headed down the bad path. i hope not but im just sayin.c'dale may be on a tight leash
    I think you're the only person I've ever heard say that.

    If the puke green 2010 29er F2 is your idea of good looking, I think it's safe to say that you're in the minority.

    By all accounts, Cannondale has been taking orders and selling their Flash series of bikes faster than they can make them.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke
    I think you're the only person I've ever heard say that.

    If the puke green 2010 29er F2 is your idea of good looking, I think it's safe to say that you're in the minority.

    By all accounts, Cannondale has been taking orders and selling their Flash series of bikes faster than they can make them.
    x2. The black and white totally floats my boat. It's a scientific fact that they are faster

  52. #52
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    This year would be a perfect time for Cannondale to introduce the Scalpel 29er, as I'll be buying a new bike year-end. Don't go breaking my heart again, big C.

  53. #53
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    Is there any update on the Scalpel or FS 29er from Cannondale? Is it possible there will be some prototypes at Sea Otter next month? Several people have said it may be introduced this spring.

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    I've heard reports from employees at two different Cannondale dealers say it's coming this Fall. I'm not holding my breath after all the false positives. Then again execs at C'dale would have to be really, really foolish not to bring to market a 29er racing frame built on the same concepts as their current sub-4lb. 3" 26er sofftail.

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    Yes - Sort of

    Yes, I was in Incycle recently and on this very topic - there will be a full suspension 29er. As it was explained to me it won't be named Scalpel because of adding a pivot. So not a scalpel, but very very close and built around the basics of what a racer desiring a 29er scalpel would want. Heard they're releasing it soon... very soon. 2011-1/2 type of soon.

    I was desiring to go back to the Epic now that the full suspension 29er is easily obtained. I originally rode the Epic 2005 the year before they went carbon. I loved that bike, but I tell ya - when I rode a Scalpel, that love disappeared - ENTIRELY. There is nothing like the handling in technical/singletrack as the lefty fork and the response and speed of that bike is like nothing I've ever ridden.

    In the races I'd been doing, I felt left behind against a large field of 29ers - I did find on my NINER (Air 9) I can easily reach higher speeds in some instances, but the Scalpel climbs faster and is far more aggressive and accurate in the technical stuff. A niner variation of that bike, I would think, would be a GREAT combination of both loves I have for these two very different bikes.

  56. #56
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    its about freakin time! i new they would have to change, i wont be suprized if its a mini link like cvt, dw and the like....mmmm....

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by david8613
    its about freakin time! i new they would have to change, i wont be suprized if its a mini link like cvt, dw and the like....mmmm....
    But then it wouldn't be anything like a Scalpel then, would it? (See post #37 in this thread, this has been mentioned before)
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  58. #58
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    I would definitely prefer a pivot-less real scalpel 29er. IMO a 29er XC race bike would be perfect with 80mm of travel in the rear end. I have a Flash 29er carbon that weighs 19 lbs. It is incredible everywhere except rough roots, rocks, and fast rough descents. A Scalpel 80mm soft-tail rear end would be just enough to take the rough edge off without killing the snap and incredible climbing of the Flash.
    If they are going with a DW/VPP link type pivot, I hope they keep it XC race focused to take on the Specialized S-Works Epic 29er. If they make it a Trail/All Mountain 120mm travel bike, I'm out. However, as Santa Cruz has demonstrated with the Tallboy, a carbon FS 29er with 100 mm of VPP travel can be a pretty compelling design for XC/Trail/AM applications. Imagine a 4.5 lb - 100mm link pivot 29er frame with a 100mm carbon lefty. It would be possible to build up a 20-21lb XC rocking race rig. Set it up with a 120mm lefty for Trail/AM riding. That sounds pretty cool. I hope Cannondale pulls it off.

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    Not good enough. I've heard that before and if true, somebody running this product development at Cannondale must be really, really stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by alexsuchey
    Yes, I was in Incycle recently and on this very topic - there will be a full suspension 29er. As it was explained to me it won't be named Scalpel because of adding a pivot. So not a scalpel, but very very close and built around the basics of what a racer desiring a 29er scalpel would want. Heard they're releasing it soon... very soon. 2011-1/2 type of soon.
    ...

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Not good enough. I've heard that before and if true, somebody running this product development at Cannondale must be really, really stupid.
    Fortunately, they have businessmen running the company. The old Cannondale went bankrupt when they expanded their product line to include making motorcycles. The current owners cut the product line down to a slim-and trim line up and have slowly built things back up the past few years. Learning from the past and being run by guys who know how to make money and keep risk low, I would put faith in them knowing what they are up to with regard to staying solvent.

    P.S. What's the word from Salsa on your broken Dos frame?

  61. #61
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    Flash and others, Cannondale is pretty much stuck on single pivots other than the Scalpel design. I would be very surprised to see them use something else.

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    If the Cannondale FS 29er is going to have 80 -100mm of travel, a single pivot rear end is not going to be the most efficient pedaling bike in it class. That is why Specialized,Santa Cruz, Niner, and Pivot have Brain/VPP/CVA/DW Link. Cannondale will have to run some kind of shock platform which compromises small bump sensitivity. On the positive side, the single pivot weighs less (not less than a pivotless Scalpel) and should be more reliable than multi link or brain bikes. Unfortunately, they are going to enter this growing new market segment with the lowest tech rear suspension of any of the above competitors. It sounds like we will see soon.

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    Sounds like alot of you are talking about the salsa spearfish! Pivotless softail 29er with 3" of travel? Not as lightweight as a carbon but maybe the same ride characteristics you are looking for? I am looking for an alternative to my rip9... Amazing bike but tired of racing a 30lb bike!
    "The good news is you're still conscious, the bad is that you're too heavy for me to carry. You gotta ride it out bro."

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridelikeafatkid
    Sounds like alot of you are talking about the salsa spearfish! Pivotless softail 29er with 3" of travel? Not as lightweight as a carbon but maybe the same ride characteristics you are looking for? I am looking for an alternative to my rip9... Amazing bike but tired of racing a 30lb bike!
    Trim your RIP down to the 25 - 27 pound range. I race mine sometimes at 27.42 lbs with Flow wheels and am thinking about using it for my races this season. I've got room to trim another 1/2 - 3/4's of a pound before getting silly with it in terms of $$$.

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    I play hockey with a higher up at Dorel. I will ask him the next time I see him. He works in the Bethel CT office

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX Flash
    If the Cannondale FS 29er is going to have 80 -100mm of travel, a single pivot rear end is not going to be the most efficient pedaling bike in it class. That is why Specialized,Santa Cruz, Niner, and Pivot have Brain/VPP/CVA/DW Link. Cannondale will have to run some kind of shock platform which compromises small bump sensitivity. On the positive side, the single pivot weighs less (not less than a pivotless Scalpel) and should be more reliable than multi link or brain bikes. Unfortunately, they are going to enter this growing new market segment with the lowest tech rear suspension of any of the above competitors. It sounds like we will see soon.
    FWIW Flash, I rode and raced a Rush that I converted to 140mm and won the expert class series in New Mexico on this single pivot bike. Those who talk trash about SPs usually do not have any suspension knowledge or training to back it up. Mine is about as cushy as I want it or as stiff according to the damper setting. I have a DW Sultan that would never make it as a racer the way the stock shock is set up...it is waaaaay to cushy and because of that accelerates slowly (along with its additional mass to be fair). I could set a shock to greatly increase its perfomance though - point being that every racing suspension design (Speccialized is a great example of this) requires input from the damper to get the required racing feel. Personally, I prefer a shock that is handlebar adjustable so that I can set it to whatever amount of damping that is required at every moment...that is how the Rush took me to 1st place and that is now how I have my Tallboy. It has three setting - one for out of saddle, one for rough stuff an one inbetween for flats and semi-rough. It just work and every bike should be set up that way independent of suspension design IMO.

  67. #67
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    This is just my opinion, but I think they should use the pivotless design. They were able to almost completely removed all the problems with the design. The great thing about the carbon rear flex-stays was that they could actually tune the carbon to get the flex where and how they wanted it. I don't think small bump sensitivity will be as much of a problem because it worked well with the Scalpel, the 29" wheel is even better with small bumps.

    A great selling point for the zero pivot was the weight, coupled with a lefty, XX and carbon wheels, you may find a very light FS 29er, probably the lightest available. I think many pros are eagerly awaiting the coming of a 29er type scalpel too.
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  68. #68
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    me too .... but i am a poor country man , not a pro ...

  69. #69
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    Yogiprophet, I'm not hating on SP bikes. Yeti has rocking top level race SP bikes with the ASR Carbon or ASR 5 Carbon. I have won races on SP bikes a long time ago with a Super V and a ProFlex 855. I have won a TX state championship on an Intense Spider VPP bike, so I know a little about SP vs. link supension. I now have a Pivot Mach 4 with custom Push Factory Tuning front and rear. I really like the pedaling efficiency without levers and rearward axle path for square edge hits, but it does come with a huge complexity and weight penalty. That is why the majority of my riding these days is on my Flash Carbon 29er. 19 lbs feel pretty incredible climbing.
    Since Cannondale hired Peter Denk from Scott there is a real chance that we may get what you want. A handlebar controlled multi mode rear shock a la the Scott Spark. That might be pretty cool on a lightweight carbon 29er frame. Current Sparks weigh 3.95 lbs for the frame and shock. They have 110mm travel, 80mm travel, or full lock-out modes. That could be quite a versatile weapon with a cabon lefty. With the work Cannondale did with Fox on the new Jekyll, they may have some tricks up their sleeve. I hope so.

  70. #70
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    Cool! the Pro Flex 855 was my first mountain bike
    BTW, the remote I use on my bikes is the same Scott remote.
    One thing I forgot to mention and you can talk from experience since you have a short travel DW link - The DW link bikes (according to DW himself) are/were designed to be run with less compression damping becasue they have more anti-squat than other designs. I find that for a race bike that this is not always optimal for when I go to accelerate especially out of the saddle that I loose too much energy with bobbing suspension unless I can greatly increase the damping or lock it out alltogether.
    What is your experience with your Mach 4 since it is 100mm rather than my 120mm?
    I am thinking that Pivot added some damping to the compression to make it racier with a little comprimise to the cush (at least compared to the amount of cush it would have with less compession).

  71. #71
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    What is your experience with your Mach 4 since it is 100mm rather than my 120mm?
    I am thinking that Pivot added some damping to the compression to make it racier with a little comprimise to the cush (at least compared to the amount of cush it would have with less compession).

    You are absolutely right on compression damping with the anti-squat, but I don't think Pivot can add much compression damping without comprimising the cush. Push first tuned my rear shock with more compression damping to make it more XC racer pedal responsive. It was a disaster on the trail. The trade off was small bump sensitivity went out the window and it felt like the rear tire was slapping the rocks or roots on fast descents. I sent it back to Push and they took the heavier damping out of the intial travel of the shock. It rides much better now. If you want a little more firm platform for smoother trails, just flip the pro-pedal to the right. I run 30% sag and run the pro-pedal cam on the RP-23 set on 1. It doesn't require much platform to firm up the rear end. I also run only one click from fully wide open on the rebound. I think that makes it perform really well on stutter or braking bumps.
    The unique thing about the DW link is how high the rear end rides when you are pedaling with the anti-squat. I swear the 100mm feels more like 120mm because you ride so high in the travel.

  72. #72
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    Well, there's a chance that Orbea might step in (based on the success of new Alma) and make a Oiz 29er.

  73. #73
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    There will be no Scalpel 29er, it is a fact, the pivotless chainstays do not work for the tire clearance. This is straight from Cannondale. It has taken so looong to get a FS 29er from them because they have been trying to mfg a 29er Scalpel and last fall scrapped it. They are currently working on another prototype that would similar in design to the RZ line but in 90mm and sub 19lbs complete. If they can come up with a sub 19lb FS 29er I will own it in a second.

  74. #74
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    I've heard this before too. Ask Generic, Black Sheep, or Funk Cycles whether a lightweight 4" 29er pivotless design works or not. 3" with Carbon fiber should be easy!

    Lamer than lame, Cannondale, one by one all of the arguments against a 29er Scalpel have been proven untrue. But hey if you don't want to make money, that's your problem. There are bikes out there that racers want to purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    There will be no Scalpel 29er, it is a fact, the pivotless chainstays do not work for the tire clearance. This is straight from Cannondale. It has taken so looong to get a FS 29er from them because they have been trying to mfg a 29er Scalpel and last fall scrapped it. They are currently working on another prototype that would similar in design to the RZ line but in 90mm and sub 19lbs complete. If they can come up with a sub 19lb FS 29er I will own it in a second.

  75. #75
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    I love all of these armchair engineers explaining why Cannondale is so stupid. Obviously they have no idea what they are doing.

  76. #76
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    A 19-20 lb carbon Cannondale 29er with 90mm F&R suspension sounds pretty good to me. In fact, it's likely that the RZ 120 style single pivot will have a lot better small bump sensitivity and plushness than a Scalpel carbon leaf spring rear end. You don't need or want any more travel on a 29er. With 20% sag on 90mm you only have 72mm or 2.8" of real travel. That should be just enough to soften the sharp hits and give you more control through fast rough descents.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard
    There will be no Scalpel 29er, it is a fact, the pivotless chainstays do not work for the tire clearance. This is straight from Cannondale. It has taken so looong to get a FS 29er from them because they have been trying to mfg a 29er Scalpel and last fall scrapped it. They are currently working on another prototype that would similar in design to the RZ line but in 90mm and sub 19lbs complete. If they can come up with a sub 19lb FS 29er I will own it in a second.
    Sub 19#??? If anyone can do it, Cannondale can...but I would have to see that with my own eyes before I believe it.
    How much does the RZ120 weigh?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broseph
    I love all of these armchair engineers explaining why Cannondale is so stupid. Obviously they have no idea what they are doing.
    I'm not sure, but the above post might be an exaggeration. But to address public postings and public criticism:

    A brilliant PhD. in Materials Science name Julian Fordham was the main design engineer for my music industry accessory named one of the top 50 for 2011 (thousands in this category). Choosing a material to contact music instruments with various finishes (varnish, polyurethane, nitro-cellulose...vinyl is caustic) was painstaking. Besides academic sources he researched hundreds (maybe over a thousand) pages of internet user forums.

    In selecting the crossover components for my custom home loudspeaker I employed advice publicly posted from one of the top ten living loudspeaker design engineers with an absolutely stellar track record of twenty+ years of success (I'm personally familiar with his work). He created one genre of loudspeaker enclosure that is now an industry staple, almost a cliche in fact. A reasonable analogy is getting personal training advice from Lance. I know well the engineer's current business associate (also incredibly brilliant and successful). I have reason to believe the associate came to know of the engineer's public disclosure of thirty+ years of hard earned trade secrets and ordered him to cease and desist, because that's exactly what happened.

    Numerous public postings predicted the current financial debacle. G. Washington's Farewell Address is publicly posted, which well predicts quagmires resulting from "unbreakable bonds" with certain foreign operatives.

    Not saying any comments are as helpful here concerning Cdale, but I find the thread very interesting, and intend to look at the pivotless design next time I'm near the Cdale dealer.

    Sorry for straying OT.

    Below: Isn't the red button behind the shock a pivot?

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    That is my bike.

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    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    There are at least 3 29er softtails with 1-1.5" of travel.
    Would someone please post a list of short travel 29er softtails?

    Thanks!
    Best Wishes!


    Mitch

  81. #81
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchJi
    Hi,

    Would someone please post a list of short travel 29er softtails?

    Thanks!
    #1 Salsa Dos Niner (mine)
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    #5 .... ?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchJi
    Hi,

    Would someone please post a list of short travel 29er softtails?

    Thanks!
    Curtlo Epic Mountaineer 29er
    Siren Song 29
    Jeronimo Cycles Romanov Ti (Spanish custom)
    http://www.jeronimocycles.com/
    Julie Racing Design (French custom builder):
    http://julieracingdesig.canalblog.co.../20539466.html

    Pay attention to super short 17.0 in/430 mm chainstays on last one.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchJi
    Hi,

    Would someone please post a list of short travel 29er softtails?

    Thanks!

    you can add:

    Wily Cycles Canine = 2 inches

  84. #84
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    Funk LaRuta

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchJi
    Hi,

    Would someone please post a list of short travel 29er softtails?

    Thanks!
    The Funk LaRuta 29er is a great titanium full-suspension / soft-tail option utilizing an RP23 shock. They're also getting ready to release a Carbon version of the LaRuta. An XL titanium frame weighs 4.5 lbs, and you can utilize a Lefty Fork if desired.

  85. #85
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    Hi,

    I found one more:

    DEAN Duke Softail
    DEAN Duke Softail - A race ready machine at just 3 lbs. 14oz. - delivers an est. 2.0" of pivotless travel. Available as 26er, 650b or 29er.
    Probably won't help anyone but they have a X Large on special now:
    DEAN Duke 29r - size X.Large - 1.5" of pivot less travel - Fox RP23 rear shock - crafted with U.S. 3.2.5 titanium - I/S disc. specific - new - call for details 303.530.3091

    Reg. = $ 2,850.00 - Sale = $ 1,850.00
    Thanks for the information!
    Last edited by MitchJi; 03-24-2011 at 11:58 AM.
    Best Wishes!


    Mitch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broseph
    I love all of these armchair engineers explaining why Cannondale is so stupid. Obviously they have no idea what they are doing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    It was a well engineered and innovative motorcycle.

    I may be reading too much into a mere picture, but the engineers are not to blame for the lack of success of the Cannondale motorsports division. Instead, one should be placing the blame fully on the financial and marketing departments.
    Supply Side Jesusnomisist

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    You are 101% correct (OK well an engineer wouldn't appreciate that compliment). I truly agree though.

    I believe the engineers at Cannondale are capable of producing marvelous innovations, we have plenty of evidence of that. 'Dale will never live down their motorsports blunder though, and well they shouldn't.

    I don't believe for one second that they can't make a Scalpel 29er that would turn the racing world upside down. Like many of you, I've worked for corporations, we know there's higher ups that get in the way of good things happening, despite hard working and intelligent employee's best efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    It was a well engineered and innovative motorcycle.

    I may be reading too much into a mere picture, but the engineers are not to blame for the lack of success of the Cannondale motorsports division. Instead, one should be placing the blame fully on the financial and marketing departments.

  89. #89
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    I can also add that Cannondale was out in Arizona (somo) testing a new 29er full suspension. Was told sub 5lb frame w/shock and hoping to be available for order in september if all goes well.

  90. #90
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    Thanks YT! Finally some real information on the Cannondale 29er FS development. That weight sounds very realistic. The Spec S-Works Epic 29er frame w/shock is about 5.2 lbs in a medium. The complete bike in M is about 21.3 lbs. That means that if Cannondale's frame is .3 lbs less than the Spec and the Lefty is .5 lbs less, it would weigh about 20.5 lbs. To hit that weight they would have to match the Spec Roval carbon wheel weight of 1,440 gm.
    I've seen some videos of SoMo and it looks pretty rocky/rough, but fun and fast. It doesn't sound like the kind of terrain to test a short travel XC bike on. Maybe this bike will be more Trail/AM oriented. What do you think?
    Last edited by TX Flash; 03-30-2011 at 01:58 PM.

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    5lb is heavy

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    That's true, but YT said under 5 lbs. Hopefully it's closer to low 4s with shock. The Santa Cruz Blur carbon is 4.3 lbs and it's got the weight of VPP links, pivots, and bearings. You would think that with a single pivot they could get it close to 4 lbs.
    I would love to see this bike with Dave Weagle's split pivot SP rear end and 142/12 hub. There are still three patent licensees that haven't been named yet. Maybe Cannondale is one of them.

  93. #93
    FIRENZE rulez !!
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    No one from Arizona here with a fast camera ?

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    Remember, the Epic is 5.2lbs. with the brain and ZERO bob. The Scalpel will bob slightly, even with an RP23 fully 'locked out'. I had one in 2005 and got rid of it for that reason. The additional weight is definitely worth the efficiency.
    MCH Co-Captain

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichwic
    Remember, the Epic is 5.2lbs. with the brain and ZERO bob. The Scalpel will bob slightly, even with an RP23 fully 'locked out'. I had one in 2005 and got rid of it for that reason. The additional weight is definitely worth the efficiency.
    New Monarch RT3 has NO BOB when locked, my Scalpel Ultimate feels like a hardtail...sometimes, though, a little suspension movement is more efficient, unless you're riding your MTB on the road....

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    Cannondale Scalpel 29er full suspension near production model.
    I'll probably pass, though.

    http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/04/16/...mountain-bike/

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    It was a well engineered and innovative motorcycle.

    I may be reading too much into a mere picture, but the engineers are not to blame for the lack of success of the Cannondale motorsports division. Instead, one should be placing the blame fully on the financial and marketing departments.
    Well engineered and innovative?
    It handled like a barge.
    It sounded like a washing machine full of bowling balls....when it ran.
    It shifted like a 1942 International Harvester.
    Working on it....and you had to work on it a lot...was a night mare.
    It broke down more than Britney Spears on crack.
    There's innovative...and there's stupid...whole lotta plain stupid on those bikes.
    The financial and marketing depts worked hard to make folks believe they were good bikes......
    Bottom line....it was one of the worst motorcycles ever conceived.
    The only good thing about them is you got a great work out pushing the dead bike off the track.
    But I do like their bicycles.....too bad they didn't walk away from the moto market sooner. I can't wait to see the new Scapel 29 in person

  98. #98
    mtbr member
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    "spy"shots

  99. #99
    c_klein87
    Guest
    very awesome!

  100. #100
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    it's awesome.... just a new titus carbon and ellsworth enlighment

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