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  1. #1
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    Ride Comparison: Lenz Behemoth vs Turner Sultan

    *Cross Post with Turner Forum*

    Looking at adding a trail-oriented FS 29er to my quiver, replacing my Ells Evolve. Evolve is a great bike but I feel the head angle is too steep on the downs.

    So, I know the obvious differences in geo numbers between the Behemoth and Sultan, most notably the 'Moths shorter chain stays. But what I'm really looking for is input from someone that's put some miles on both of these frames.

    What characteristics made you like one over the other?

    Build quality?

    Additional small features like cable routing, ease of front dérailleur installation, etc.?

    Thanks in advance for your replies.

  2. #2
    Pablo68
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    Hope Lenz vs Turner

    Hola, was checking out your post and figured I'd register to give you a response.

    I currently own both bikes and dig both. I have owned the Lenz for approximately 2.75 years and the Turner 1.5 years (2009 production year purchased in 2010). Over the course of time the Lenz has been morfed to a 6" travel coil sprung "BeBox" (Behemoth w/Lunch Box rockers, only feasible because Devin was kind enough to build me a custom geo w/custom cable routing.)

    In short, I enjoy the Lenz a bit more, simply because of it's versatility. Amazing climber and an incredible descender!! Keep in mind, it is not in the original 5" travel mode. At 5" it did not have as plush/bottomless feel as the Turner had @ 4.7". Devin hit something magical when he squeezed out that extra inch of travel. Had it to do over again, I would have just ordered the Lunch Box right out of the gates. It was unfortunately not in production when I ordered from Devin.

    Shortly after receiving and building the Lenz, Turner produced the DW version of the Sultan and I had an opportunity to demo it. My immediate response was WOW! It was a more supple ride that simply erased small bump chatter. Something the Lenz didn't seem to accomplish as well in the 5" mode. It also has a slightly lower bottom bracket

    All that said, (and I know I said a lot) they are both fantastic steeds, with great quality and design. The Lenz is the more laterally stable of the two frames and in general the more burly. It can lean towards the "free ride" side with out hesitation. The Turner has a slightly lower bottom bracket and can lean more towards the xc side if that's what you're looking for but also builds into a nice "all mountain" steed.

    Hope that helps a little, happy to offer further perspective if you'd like.

    Grace n Peace

    Pab

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply Pab.

    Could you comment more on the descending capabilities of the Sultan compared to the Behemoth (when the 'Moth was at 5") please?

    The biggest reason I'm looking to "upgrade" to either one of these frames is for increased stability on steep technical descents. Also, between the two, which would you say would be more suited for all-day epics from a comfort standpoint?

  4. #4
    T , V , & K Rider
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    Yeah , that is a nice review......just to add info make note that the newer DW Sultans have a slacker HA and a 44 mm head tube vs the 1.125 " of the 09 DW Sultan ( which I've been riding for the last three seasons) ! Not to mention the 2012 version has a 142 x 12 mm rear and a slightly bent down tube to make clearance for most all piggyback shock options as well ! TIG.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    Yeah , that is a nice review......just to add info make note that the newer DW Sultans have a slacker HA and a 44 mm head tube vs the 1.125 " of the 09 DW Sultan ( which I've been riding for the last three seasons) ! Not to mention the 2012 version has a 142 x 12 mm rear and a slightly bent down tube to make clearance for most all piggyback shock options as well ! TIG.
    Right. Got all of that. The new features intro'd on the '12 models now give the Sultan everything I'm looking for except...

    Chain stay length - 17.375" on the Lenz, 18.2" on the Sultan

    150mm rear spacing on the Lenz vs 142mm rear on the Sultan.

    So I'm looking at possibly stiffer rear end and quicker, more nimble handling characteristics due to the shorter CS on the Behemoth. Maybe the Sultan would be more comfortable on an all-day epic? Maybe not...

    At the end of the day, I'm probably being too nitpicky at this point right?

  6. #6
    Pablo68
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    Hey again, wow, tough questions!

    I have done all day epics on both bikes and both are really "cozy". I have the Lenz built tanky @ aprx. 35.5lbs. and the Turner sitting around 30lbs. Having said that, I can still pedal the Lenz around all day and would have to give it the climbing advantage despite the weight. Concerning descending in 5" mode (as best as I can remember since it's been a while) I would have to come back to the lateral rigidity vs plush rear end debate.......

    I run both bikes with 20mm through axels and I would have to give the solid ride feel to the Lenz, minus a super cush rear shock stroke. It's not a bad feeling, but the rate in which it would travel through the shock stroke in 5" mode was just not as plush as the Turner. The best I could explain this would be to say it was as if the first two thirds of the stroke had a firm compression feel, and then it would suddenly open up during the last third of the stroke. I tried multiple sag, compression, rebound, pro-pedal, etc. settings and it just seemed to be a linkage rate thing. Hence the 6" magic rocker comment on my previous post.

    The Turner on the other hand, has a rear suspension with a "bottomless" feel.(cliche I know) As I eluded to in my previous post, I rode the demo right after building up the Lenz and immediately fell in love with the progression of the DW link. Where I think the Turner comes up a bit short is high speed chunky monkey stuff. I can definitely feel lateral frame flex when going hard into rough turns or baby head rock gardens. This might not be as evident with their new head tube and rear axle design, but it is what stands out to me on my steed.

    Bottom line is that they are both great bikes (imho) with great people standing behind them. Hope that helps!

    Grace n Peace,

    Pab

  7. #7
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    To the OP, I can comment on your chainstay length concerns.
    Ive been on yeti 575 for the past 3 years and loving it. Until about a year ago when I bought a used 29er frame to build up and see what the buzz was and if I even liked it. Its a Salsa Big Mama, 4" travel frame which I use a Manitou Minute 120 up front with a 20mm thru axle. After I bought it was looking at the geometry numbers and saw the chainstay was 18.5"
    Right away I told myself I'd finish building it and then sell it, those long chainstays would make it a tank in the tight stuff. And I ride tight east coast trails.
    After the first ride I was blown away. I never noticed the long stays, on the contrary I think it helps me climb the steep techy climbs even better. On my first several rides on the bike, I made climbs on the first try that I only made maybe half the times on the Yeti. I remember the Yeti always wanting to wheelie on the steep stuff. I think the longer stays keep the front end down.
    The ONLY time I have noticed the longer length is when I'm trying to ride a skinny that has a tight turn. And I'm not that great on them anyway-lol.
    A Sultan is actually the next frame I want. I doesnt get the great reviews on here for nothing.

    Tom

  8. #8
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    I've been riding the Lenz Behemoth (5" travel) since it was introduced in 2005.

    I've owned a LunchBox (6") since 2007.

    I've owned a Lenz Mammoth (also 5" travel, lighter chassis than either of the above) since last fall.

    And then back in November I got a chance to ride a 2012 DW Sultan back to back with the Mammoth, on my home trails.

    The light compression tune on the Turner feels really good--super supple to small stuff, nice ramp to bottom. It's a very different feel from either the Behemoth or the LunchBox, both of which use heavier compression on the rear damper to limit unwanted rider-induced movement.

    The thing that surprised me was that unless I used the Propedal setting on the Sultan, it was very prone to rider induced suspension actuation, aka "bob". Sit and spin lightly and it was pretty neutral feeling. Lay down the power (seated or standing) and it affected the suspension a lot. I figured I must have mis-adjusted something for this to happen on the Sultan--I've read so much about how well it isolates rider input from suspension action.

    So I spent extra time fiddling with the rear shock--changing air pressures (surprising how wide of a range can work well if you aren't uber picky) fiddling with the rebound damping, and ultimately relying on the Propedal when climbing. No biggie to flip the lever when the trail tilted up, but I always looked forward to flipping it back off for descents--that light tune felt super nice. In sum, in order for the Turner to behave appropriately both up and down, constant use of the Propedal switch was mandatory.

    The geo was a completely different story, however. There's just no way to NOT notice the added *inch* of chainstay length on the Turner. Even 1/4 inch is huge, but a full inch? Is this 2002?! I guess that's the tradeoff you have to accept for the ability to have DW sus. My $.02 is that I'd rather ride a hardtail than have to accept the truckish handling of the Sultan. Noticeable when climbing steeps, noticeable in switchbacks, most noticeable when descending steeps.

    There was definitely a bit of vagueness in the chassis--we all noticed it immediately when switching from any of the other bikes. Figured one of the pivots or even shock mounts must be loose, so we stopped and laid a wrench on every bolt on the bike--couldn't find anything. Grab the seat with one hand, grab the rear wheel with the other, and pull them apart and you could feel it--not a knock or a clunk, just an imprecise tolerance somewhere.

    The thing I was not prepared for and completely floored by: Toe overlap when descending steeps. Medium frame, Fox 120mm fork, and I wear a size 42 shoe. Really? Really??!?! I guess it must be 2002 all over again.

    Could only conclude that most who've ridden this bike and gushed over it haven't ridden much else to compare it to, or are willing to turn a blind eye to such major flaws for some reason. The sus feels great, but it'd have to pull my pants down and take care of business (daily) to accept the geo problems inherent.

    The three of us riding and swapping bikes that day were all psyched on the sus feel of the Sultan early on, but mid-way through the day, and moreso as the day wore on, we all fought to NOT have to ride it.

    For anyone comparing the Sultan to any of the Lenz bikes, I'd say the Mammoth is the closest in sus feel--really supple on small stuff, really nice ramp to bottom. Great all-day and light chunk bike. But the Mammoth has none of the geo problems or chassis inadequacies of the Sultan.

    Just my $.02.

  9. #9
    Daniel the Dog
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    Ouch! Someone had a bone to pick with Turner.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    Ouch! Someone had a bone to pick with Turner.
    I understand that that's the smallminded way you see the world, but don't lay that on me.

    If I'd had a bone to pick I'd not have praised the great sus feel.

  11. #11
    Pirate!!!
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    Why aren't you adding the Intense Tracer29 to your short list of longer travel all-day 29ers? You guys are probably getting tired of hearing me gush about it, but I'm nothing short of blown away by mine. It's super plush, laterally very stiff, and "cozy".

  12. #12
    Daniel the Dog
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    Dude

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I understand that that's the smallminded way you see the world, but don't lay that on me.

    If I'd had a bone to pick I'd not have praised the great sus feel.
    You are an angry dude.

    You are a moron to jump folks when you have a business. I buy stuff but....

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    You are an angry dude.

    You are a moron to jump folks when you have a business. I buy stuff but....
    Angry? No.

    Moron? Yes, you probably are, but I think you're more likely just a garden variety tool.

    Got anything to add to the discussion at hand? If not, piss off and quit trolling for attention.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    You are an angry dude.

    You are a moron to jump folks when you have a business. I buy stuff but....
    Mike doesn't want your business.

    See above.
    www.seanhannity.com <=not what you think it is.

    Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cobb View Post
    Why aren't you adding the Intense Tracer29 to your short list of longer travel all-day 29ers? You guys are probably getting tired of hearing me gush about it, but I'm nothing short of blown away by mine. It's super plush, laterally very stiff, and "cozy".
    I guess I hadn't really considered it.

    It looks like it has roughly the same geo numbers and features as the Sultan - same HA, CS length with 140mm fork, etc.

    Wondering if the rear susp has some of the characteristics Mikesee pointed out on the Sultan above....

    I'm thinking a trip to the nearest Turner and Intense dealer is in order....highly doubt I'd be able to demo a Lenz, living in the midwest and all.

  16. #16
    Daniel the Dog
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    Hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Mike doesn't want your business.

    See above.
    LOL. Are you his brother or his buddy?

  17. #17
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    I've had both as well, and both had Rohloffs. I'm way more comfortable and confident on my 2011 Sultan with a Fox 34mm 140mm fork that I was on the Behemoth with a Fluid 135. IMO the Sultan climbs way better, descends way better, and is far more confidence-inspiring and comfortable than the Moth this may be due to the shorter (50mm) stem I'm running on the Sultan, plus I'm running H-bars on the Sultan and had regular (CF) bars on the Lenz. I have no problems with tight switchbacks, babyheads on the DH, or anything else. To be fair I had Flows on the Moth and have Edge AM rims on the Sultan, and that may make a difference. The Sultan is XL, the Moth was L so that all plays in too. I had the Moth from 2007-2010 and got the Sultan in 2011, so the year apart may have made a difference in what I remember, but maybe Mikesee had a bad frame or something, as mine is extremely precise, has zero toe overlap with size 47 Sidis, and is one of the most grin-inducing bikes I've ever ridden. Devin's a great guy, the Turner crew has been really good as well, so close your eyes, throw a dart, don't look back, and enjoy whichever one you get. You'll probably never use all of either bike (I know I don't and I ride pretty hard) so you should be good either way.

  18. #18
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    Do you think lenz do a carbon 29er in the future? I'm in the same delimma

  19. #19
    T , V , & K Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2xPneu View Post
    I've had both as well, and both had Rohloffs. I'm way more comfortable and confident on my 2011 Sultan with a Fox 34mm 140mm fork that I was on the Behemoth with a Fluid 135. IMO the Sultan climbs way better, descends way better, and is far more confidence-inspiring and comfortable than the Moth this may be due to the shorter (50mm) stem I'm running on the Sultan, plus I'm running H-bars on the Sultan and had regular (CF) bars on the Lenz. I have no problems with tight switchbacks, babyheads on the DH, or anything else. To be fair I had Flows on the Moth and have Edge AM rims on the Sultan, and that may make a difference. The Sultan is XL, the Moth was L so that all plays in too. I had the Moth from 2007-2010 and got the Sultan in 2011, so the year apart may have made a difference in what I remember, but maybe Mikesee had a bad frame or something, as mine is extremely precise, has zero toe overlap with size 47 Sidis, and is one of the most grin-inducing bikes I've ever ridden. Devin's a great guy, the Turner crew has been really good as well, so close your eyes, throw a dart, don't look back, and enjoy whichever one you get. You'll probably never use all of either bike (I know I don't and I ride pretty hard) so you should be good either way.
    Nice review....! TIG.

  20. #20
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    i think MC rode the 2012 Sultan and not the 2011. i think the 2012 is a bit different than the 2011.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xPneu View Post
    I've had both as well, and both had Rohloffs. I'm way more comfortable and confident on my 2011 Sultan with a Fox 34mm 140mm fork that I was on the Behemoth with a Fluid 135.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by starre View Post
    i think MC rode the 2012 Sultan and not the 2011. i think the 2012 is a bit different than the 2011.
    2011 & 2012 Sultans have the same geometry. Changes are the rear axle goes to 142x12, downtube bend for ext resivoir shock clearance, ISCG added, and cable retention changed. I think that was it.
    Nothing to see here.

  22. #22
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    sorry, my bad, i thought the change in geometry came this year. it came as you said in 2010. thanx!

    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA View Post
    2011 & 2012 Sultans have the same geometry. Changes are the rear axle goes to 142x12, downtube bend for ext resivoir shock clearance, ISCG added, and cable retention changed. I think that was it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2xPneu View Post
    The Sultan is XL, .... has zero toe overlap with size 47 Sidis
    MC was commenting on toe overlap on a Medium Sultan. I can't imagine it would be a problem on the larger frames.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    MC was commenting on toe overlap on a Medium Sultan. I can't imagine it would be a problem on the larger frames.
    I find this odd. I've had medium 2008, 2009, 2010 sultans and spent a day in Moab in the 2011. Never had an issue with toe overlap with the same size 42 shoe.
    Nothing to see here.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA View Post
    I find this odd.
    Agreed 100%.

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