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  1. #1
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    new frame to buy..Canfield Nimble9 or Paradox V2 ?

    Hello all..
    I have a nice steel 29 front frame, but its geometry is trail /xc,..and I would like to try a frame that has shorter stays and capable for a 120 fork .I tried my frame with a 120 fork but I feel that the BB is too high. Also I would like to try this new "short stays" thing..MIne are 443mm..Will I notice a difference with something like 427(Paradox) or even less with the Nimble9?..Is here someone that has tried short and long stays on a AM 29" frame?
    In fact ,actually, my preferences go for on new updated Paradox and the steel Canfield Nimble9.
    At the moment Im really pleased with the steel comfort of my 29 frame so Im a bit skeptical about the Paradox to be used for long rides.Do you think it willl be too much punishing for my bones?..In any case I will fit both frames with big volume tires, will that be helpful? I really have no experiences on AM aluminium hardtails since I have just have had quite a few number of 26 full sussers and a lot of steel HT 26" bikes..but never an alu HT..
    Also the Nimble9 has a 27,2 seatpost while the Paradox a 30,9 which in theory would flex less..Both frames have curved seatstays..how that will be helpful on the Paradox?
    I have contacted the dealers for both frames and the Nimble9 is available in 2 weeks , not so for the Paradox ,whcih will be available at beginning of 2012. The Nimble9 costs 200 euros more.
    Thank you for any help.
    Last edited by Jingleman; 11-09-2011 at 06:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    I'm biased as I've been riding a Paradox for almost two years and still love the bike. It is my contention (and that of others like Sheldon Brown) that frame material has little to do with the comfort of the frame. Tires and saddle compliance will be far greater than any give in the frame.

    I have never ridden a Nimble 9 so I can't comment on how it rides. I'm sure it's a great bike but unless you are interested in riding single speed, I'd steer clear. I have seen and read about too many problems with sliding dropouts. I'll never ride single speed so wouldn't want them on my bike. I'd consider the Yelli Screamy as an option though.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I'm biased as I've been riding a Paradox for almost two years and still love the bike. It is my contention (and that of others like Sheldon Brown) that frame material has little to do with the comfort of the frame. Tires and saddle compliance will be far greater than any give in the frame.

    I have never ridden a Nimble 9 so I can't comment on how it rides. I'm sure it's a great bike but unless you are interested in riding single speed, I'd steer clear. I have seen and read about too many problems with sliding dropouts. I'll never ride single speed so wouldn't want them on my bike. I'd consider the Yelli Screamy as an option though.
    the Yelli Screamy is nice..but really I have doubts about the bottle screws on seat tube..On the small frame, I think you really cant slide the seatpost down than a few inches and on the medium not much more.The Nimble9 has a uninterrupted seat tube down to the BB..And the new Paradox has 255mm of linear straight seat tube for the medium (smallest ) size and thats more than enough for my short legs to put the post down.

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    Not sure what Ronnie's referring to, but I've had zero issues with sliding drops on my Canfield.

    I've not ridden a Paradox, and although I'm sure it's a nice bike, I'm wiling to bet it rides more harsh than a steel framed N9. I also considered the Yelli, but the stiff aluminum frame was a deal killer. I plan to do some 100-mile rides and wanted my fillings in tact.

    Also, if you ever plan to try Singlespeed (highly recommended), no-brainier choice is the Canfield. And lastly, you'll be able to have the bike built up faster, which = more ride time. And we all know you can put a price tag on ride time.

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    There's another frame to consider, the Transition Transam 29. It has AM geo, it's steel and has the ability to be 142x12, 135x10 or SS. It seems like it will be available at the same time as the Paradox V2. Look in the transition bikes forum for the thread on it.

  6. #6
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    ^ It will be heaviest of all so far.

    Personally, I'd get the Nimble9 over the Paradox V2. The Canfield brothers have definitely hit it out of the ballpark with the Yelli and Nimble in the 29er category.

  7. #7
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    It comes down to if you want to run dropper seatposts, there is more availability with a 30.9 seat tube, if you want to run the bike as a single speed too, and if you want a tapered fork. The small nuances in the frames were not noticeable to me when I rode both bikes.

    Regardless, you will be happy with either bike.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by p nut View Post
    Not sure what Ronnie's referring to, but I've had zero issues with sliding drops on my Canfield.

    I've not ridden a Paradox, and although I'm sure it's a nice bike, I'm wiling to bet it rides more harsh than a steel framed N9. I also considered the Yelli, but the stiff aluminum frame was a deal killer. I plan to do some 100-mile rides and wanted my fillings in tact.

    Also, if you ever plan to try Singlespeed (highly recommended), no-brainier choice is the Canfield. And lastly, you'll be able to have the bike built up faster, which = more ride time. And we all know you can put a price tag on ride time.
    I have seen a few sliding dropouts that slip and/or creak. For every person like you that says there are no issues, there's one who has had an issue. You can also do a search. I commented that I would only consider them if I wanted to ride single speed.

    To repeat, your belief that one bike "rides more harsh" than another based on the material it is made of is wishful thinking and is not based in science. Maybe you should read Sheldon Brown's article on the subject. he explains it better than me.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan G. View Post
    It comes down to if you want to run dropper seatposts, there is more availability with a 30.9 seat tube,
    yep. 5" Dropper posts are a must-have in my book, which rules out 27.2 seat tube frames.
    I love steel, but I'd take a lighter alu bike with a dropper post, over a heavier steel frame with a seatpost qr any day. YMMV if you ride pure XC and never drop your saddle....

    The dropper also resolves the WB boss issue with the yelli screamy. I could only drop a standard post 3" on mine, but with a kindshock or reverb, you still have that 3" of adjustibility, plus the 5" from the remote seatpost.

    I really can't say enough good things about the yelli screamy, but I'm sure the paradox is just as good, they are very similar, and even made in the same factory I believe, Get whichever one strikes your fancy, you will love it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    ...To repeat, your belief that one bike "rides more harsh" than another based on the material it is made of is wishful thinking and is not based in science. Maybe you should read Sheldon Brown's article on the subject. he explains it better than me.
    I have read that article. But let me ask you---out of the steel and aluminum bikes you've ridden, which have you found to be more stiff/harsh? For me, aluminum, by far, has been the stiffer frame(s). What I said was a generalization, but that just means generally speaking, the statement is true. You've got a few exceptions, like Ventana and few boutique frames, but those do not represent the majority. I'd liketo head out on a trail with you and swap bikes to settle this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I have seen a few sliding dropouts that slip and/or creak. For every person like you that says there are no issues, there's one who has had an issue. You can also do a search. I commented that I would only consider them if I wanted to ride single speed...
    Wait a tick, so my "subjective" opinion above is not ok, but because you've "seen a few sliding dropouts" slip and creak, it somehow becomes an issue?? And I will bet a pretty penny that it isn't 50% failure rate like you stated. I'm venturing to guess that you've never owned a bike with sliding drops? With things like this, I really don't need to do a search, because 90% of those threads are people that have "heard" or "read" about catestrophic failures of various systems--all based on nothing but sitting in front of a computer screen. Why read, when I can ride and find out for myself?

    I think you're putting too much into these Internet rumors. It gets blown way out of proportion most of the time.
    Last edited by p nut; 11-09-2011 at 01:41 PM.

  11. #11
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    I believe the water bottle boss and seat tube issue on the Yelli Screamy was fixed in the second run of frames.

    From my personal experience, I'd go Canfield for sure. I've received stellar customer service from Canfield. Chris has gone well beyond my expectations.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by p nut View Post
    I'd liketo head out on a trail with you and swap bikes to settle this.
    I'm not sure you can resolve the problem this way.. Does all steel bikes with identical geo have same plush ride? Does all alu frames with identical geo have same harsh feel?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I believe the water bottle boss and seat tube issue on the Yelli Screamy was fixed in the second run of frames.

    From my personal experience, I'd go Canfield for sure. I've received stellar customer service from Canfield. Chris has gone well beyond my expectations.
    I've had two of the latest Yelli frames from Canfield, one was a black one, the other that I'm building ATM is purple anodized, so it's from the latest run, and both had 3 sets of water bosses as before. Sure they are not needed IMO, I would be fine with zero, but I don't run into any problems with them, being 6'4" on a XL frame, I have quite a bit of post showing anyway.

  14. #14
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    I don't know a whole bunch about the Paradox, other than a guy I ride with has one and likes it. I have a N9 and absolutley love it, no issues at all with slipping slider dropouts as of yet. The Paradox rider and I just did a 18-ish mile ride on a section of the BCT trail here is AZ, he just came off of wrist surgery so he was a little sensitive to some of the choppy,rocky sections on the trail(he kept complaing about his crappy 120mm Marz fork!). I usually ride my rigid SS Jabber, so riding the N9 for the first time on this trail was dreamy! Not only did it handle much better in the downhill sections(antelope canyon) that include sharp 90 degree turns into arroyo's but the N9 (with a Ti seatpost mind you) felt like I had 4" inch's of plushness! I honestly didn't feel "beat up" like I usually do after that ride. With that being said, I have much respect for Sheldon Browns ideas on different material ride quality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those ideas based on materials and geometries from quite a few years ago? To the OP, if possible try and test ride each bike your looking at in a variety of terrain. If you are ever in AZ your welcome to try my medium N9

  15. #15
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    Another to throw in the mix.......Kona Honzo. While a bunch of folks are saying that the bike complete build is heavy, the frame is only slightly heavier than the canfield. But there's more to it than weight.

    The canfield has a much slacker seat angle (71ish) than the honzo (74ish) with the same 120mm fork. I think one reason why folks are loving the canfield geometry is that the rear weight bias lets them shift weight back so easily for anything.
    Wondering if the steeper STA on the honzo will be more of a plow style bike. The front center (BB to front wheel axle) is 1.5 in LONGER on the honzo as compared to the same size canfield. That a big difference in geometry!

    Lastly, there is the fork stiffness issue. The Honzo can run tapered forks. Wondering how much this really helps in the handling dept.

    Any thoughts on the different geometry in these 2 bikes?
    I'm just comparing numbers, would love to talk to someone who has ridden a Honzo and a nimble9

    FYI - I had a paradox a while ago. it did everything really really well for a geared bike. I also ran it as an SS with the eccentric BB, didn't really love it for SS riding - think it was b/c the bars were too high.

  16. #16
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    I'm also a bit biased to the Paradox as I've ridden a V1 for about 15 months now and have had a blast. That said you're sort of comparing apples to oranges somewhat going steel to alu and I will say not sure exactly if it was scientific or not, but I threw the 120mm Minute I run on my Paradox on my Karate Monkey and rode it once and it felt just a bit more supple over smaller stuff you encounter - as I said not scientific as the saddle was further back on the rails on the Monkey and it has a 27.2 post like the Nimble9, but I still believe steel is a bit more forgiving than alu on similarly made frames.

    All this being said, the V2 Paradox should be very versatile and as FM and others said, the options if you want a dropper post are not there for 27.2. Not sure about not being available yet as there's guys posting they got theirs already in Europe - check this thread, from post 60 on Another option you could look at IF you wanted to run a 1x9/10 drivetrain is the Kona Honzo, it's steel and uses a 30.9 ID seattube AFAIK, not sure on price though.

    No matter what, YES, get one of the "new" AM type frames, pair it up with a nice 120mm fork and enjoy the fun and benefits short stays bring.
    Last edited by LyNx; 11-09-2011 at 04:43 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Gas Ventinove

    gasventinove

    This guys are from Italy too, and they have a nice steel frame called Stambek.
    In Classic version it's optimized for 120-140mm forks, comes with ZS44 headtube and Syntace X-12 rear dropouts.
    Give them a call, arrange a test ride, and who knows, maybe you'll like it.

    And there are this Germans:
    2SoulsCycles

    with their Quarterhorse model which should be available right now.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by going29AZ View Post
    I don't know a whole bunch about the Paradox, other than a guy I ride with has one and likes it. I have a N9 and absolutley love it, no issues at all with slipping slider dropouts as of yet. The Paradox rider and I just did a 18-ish mile ride on a section of the BCT trail here is AZ, he just came off of wrist surgery so he was a little sensitive to some of the choppy,rocky sections on the trail(he kept complaing about his crappy 120mm Marz fork!). I usually ride my rigid SS Jabber, so riding the N9 for the first time on this trail was dreamy! Not only did it handle much better in the downhill sections(antelope canyon) that include sharp 90 degree turns into arroyo's but the N9 (with a Ti seatpost mind you) felt like I had 4" inch's of plushness! I honestly didn't feel "beat up" like I usually do after that ride. With that being said, I have much respect for Sheldon Browns ideas on different material ride quality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those ideas based on materials and geometries from quite a few years ago? To the OP, if possible try and test ride each bike your looking at in a variety of terrain. If you are ever in AZ your welcome to try my medium N9
    Thanks so much Going29, but I live in Italy ..I sure would like to meet you and try your Nimble9 and and also let you try my 29" Sobre Dad..Nice bike too! Thanks again..

  19. #19
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    I'm kinda sure if he mentioned that the Yelli was 200 euros more than the Paradox that he won't be looking at either of those 2 going from previous pricing I've read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ojos Azules View Post
    gasventinove

    This guys are from Italy too, and they have a nice steel frame called Stambek.
    In Classic version it's optimized for 120-140mm forks, comes with ZS44 headtube and Syntace X-12 rear dropouts.
    Give them a call, arrange a test ride, and who knows, maybe you'll like it.

    And there are this Germans:
    2SoulsCycles

    with their Quarterhorse model which should be available right now.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'm kinda sure if he mentioned that the Yelli was 200 euros more than the Paradox that he won't be looking at either of those 2 going from previous pricing I've read.
    well..the 2SoulsCycles is really interesting, despite the 900 euros pricing..But still I dont have understood when it will be available. Also the new Stambek has not never appeared yet anywhere.. The Honzo is out of my list cause of the lacking of front derailleur. The Transition is nice..but I have read that its frame is quite heavy.And even it is steel, I guess that big heavy steel tubes are not going to give any advantage about comfort over an alu frame. Also the 2Souls is quite heavy too .No..at the moment I see the Paradox and the Nimble the most appealing frames to me...What I like about the Paradox is the low weight,slack headtube, short stays and 30,9 seat tube (long enough to use a normal seatpost up and down) and overall look and finish.Nimble9 is heavier, shorter and really looks like very agile and fun to ride with its ultra short stays.Its looks is really nice and it seems it can offers many possibility to personalize it.....Maybe ,since I have already a steel frame, I could try the Paradox. hoping I will not regret it using it for long days on the saddle . But I need to read some more of your opinions

  21. #21
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    Personally, all up to looks comparing the Yelli, Nimble and Paradox, the Paradox wins hands down for me, just plain looks better, better lines etc and especially now with the revised tapered HT, just looks so business Like your thinking of have stel already, lets give something alu a try I have my Paradox and a rigid Karate Monkey and they both are fun and offer their own thrills and feels, so I have no overlap in terms of bikes, per-say - the KM is quite fast and when I get some real high volume tyres on it, it may well get more ride time, but for now for pure fun and enjoyment, I reach for the Paradox. Oh and with the 200 Euro you save you can put it to getting better parts - fork or brakes, wheels etc.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Personally, all up to looks comparing the Yelli, Nimble and Paradox, the Paradox wins hands down for me, just plain looks better, better lines etc and especially now with the revised tapered HT, just looks so business Like your thinking of have stel already, lets give something alu a try I have my Paradox and a rigid Karate Monkey and they both are fun and offer their own thrills and feels, so I have no overlap in terms of bikes, per-say - the KM is quite fast and when I get some real high volume tyres on it, it may well get more ride time, but for now for pure fun and enjoyment, I reach for the Paradox. Oh and with the 200 Euro you save you can put it to getting better parts - fork or brakes, wheels etc.
    LyNx,
    ..I think I like what you say.. I could try a rigid steel fork for my steel frame, to make different bikes with different uses and characters..and move the susp fork from my actual bike to the Paradox. And this fork can be converted from 100mm to 120mm with success..Yes!!
    At this point I should have to buy just a new pair of wheels, a steel fork and the Paradox frame..I have everything else, like stems, handlebars and so on..

  23. #23
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    The differences are far from "wishful thinking"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I have seen a few sliding dropouts that slip and/or creak. For every person like you that says there are no issues, there's one who has had an issue. You can also do a search. I commented that I would only consider them if I wanted to ride single speed.

    To repeat, your belief that one bike "rides more harsh" than another based on the material it is made of is wishful thinking and is not based in science. Maybe you should read Sheldon Brown's article on the subject. he explains it better than me.
    Why do I say that?. Its simple. I started mountain biking on a steel rigid Gary Fisher I used to ride around NYC and Brooklyn. Had the bike for several years before a new fellow at work took me out on the trails. Rode the first 6 months on my bike then upgraded to an alu hardtail with a Judy XC and disc brakes. I loved the look of the fat frame tubes. The first time I went over some roots and rocks I was like WTF?!. I had no idea about frame materials or their ride qualities real or perceived. The bike was much rougher and I had no idea why. I was much more sore by the end of that ride and every one after that. Took it back and had the exact same experience with every alu ht I tried. At the time I had no idea they were made of different materials than my old bike which now belonged to my nephew.
    I went on an internet search to find out why these bikes were so harsh. That led me to this site, which led me to the forums, which led me to Jenson USA, which led me to a Jamis Dragon frame on closeout that was my size. Bought it, built it up and again enjoyed the smoother ride of steel. That was it for me, never bought another alu ht again. So I could care less what Sheldon Brown says, my experiences without any knowledge or loyalty one way or another told me a very different story.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by edouble View Post
    Why do I say that?. Its simple. I started mountain biking on a steel rigid Gary Fisher I used to ride around NYC and Brooklyn. Had the bike for several years before a new fellow at work took me out on the trails. Rode the first 6 months on my bike then upgraded to an alu hardtail with a Judy XC and disc brakes. I loved the look of the fat frame tubes. The first time I went over some roots and rocks I was like WTF?!. I had no idea about frame materials or their ride qualities real or perceived. The bike was much rougher and I had no idea why. I was much more sore by the end of that ride and every one after that. Took it back and had the exact same experience with every alu ht I tried. At the time I had no idea they were made of different materials than my old bike which now belonged to my nephew.
    I went on an internet search to find out why these bikes were so harsh. That led me to this site, which led me to the forums, which led me to Jenson USA, which led me to a Jamis Dragon frame on closeout that was my size. Bought it, built it up and again enjoyed the smoother ride of steel. That was it for me, never bought another alu ht again. So I could care less what Sheldon Brown says, my experiences without any knowledge or loyalty one way or another told me a very different story.
    Your opinion is purely anecdotal. There is no grounding in science. My story is completely different. I rode a tricked out Intense 5point5 for about six years until I tried an aluminum hardtail (Paradox). I never rode the Intense again. Therefore a 29" hardtail is better than a 5" full suspension 26". That is obviously sarcastic but I do prefer The Paradox.

    If you actually read the article, in particular the following, I'd like you to dispute the logic with something a bit more scientific:

    "Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.

    Bumps are transmitted from the rear tire patch, through the tire, the wheel, the seatstays, the seatpost, the saddle frame, and the saddle top. All these parts deflect to a greater or lesser extent when you hit a bump, but not to an equal extent.

    The greatest degree of flex is in the tire; probably the second greatest is the saddle itself. If you have a lot of seatpost sticking out of a small frame, there's noticeable flex in the seatpost. The shock-absorbing qualities of good-quality wheels are negligible...and now we get to the seat stays. The seat stays (the only part of this system that is actually part of the frame) are loaded in pure, in-line compression. In this direction, they are so stiff, even the lightest and thinnest ones, that they can contribute nothing worth mentioning to shock absorbency."
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Do you know what they call aluminum that is strong as steel, compliant as steel, and rusts like steel?

    STEEL!!!

    These metal/alloys are named so because they've got different characteristics. 5th grade science covers this. Or was it 3rd??

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