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  1. #1
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    My introduction and plunge into the 29er realm. (Tubeless Question Inside)

    Hello everybody. After having maybe 3 or so sub 1k, hardtail 26 inch wheel bikes the past ten years, I decided to take a step up. I went with a (midline I guess?) full suspension 29er. I took the advice of almost everybody on this board and rode as many bikes as I could get my hands on, not limited to the Trek Superfly, Trek HIFI, Trek Rumblefish, Giant XTC, Giant Anthem, Specialized Carve, Specialized Stumpjumper and Specialized Camber. In the end, I kept coming back to the 2012 Specialized Camber Comp 29er. It seems as though people like the Stumpjumper, and the Giant Anthem more, but they just didn't quite feel as good to me. Here are a few pictures, nothing special. But, I do LOVE this bike. It has really got me back into riding.


    However, I do have some questions. Right now the bike is completely stock and I'm loving it. But, the weight weenies have me wondering if I'm missing something. So, I'm tempted to go tubeless with some Stans No Tubes or the American Classic 29er tubeless wheel set. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, will I really notice that big of a difference? Will the weight savings be at least a couple of pounds? Below is my bike's current weight with my Easton F(l)atboy pedals.

    Thanks a bunch for any and every reply/suggestion and I'm happy to be riding again!

  2. #2
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    That weight actually isn't so bad as far as mid-high specialized 29ers are concerned. I dont know the exact weight of the wheels but Im sure they are not as light as they could be on that build.

    Cutting weight (rotational weight) is the most dramatic weight cut you can make, so yes I would prob do a switch to a No tubes wheel set as my first upgrade If I were in your shoes.
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace5high View Post
    That weight actually isn't so bad as far as mid-high specialized 29ers are concerned. I dont know the exact weight of the wheels but Im sure they are not as light as they could be on that build.

    Cutting weight (rotational weight) is the most dramatic weight cut you can make, so yes I would prob do a switch to a No tubes wheel set as my first upgrade If I were in your shoes.
    Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I guess it's the same as when you lower the weight of the wheels on your car, less rotational mass equals better acceleration and handling. I'm just hoping it's a pretty noticeable effect as $500 on top of a $2600 bike can add up. Do you have any suggestions on a "bang for your buck" set of tubeless 29er wheels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I guess it's the same as when you lower the weight of the wheels on your car, less rotational mass equals better acceleration and handling. I'm just hoping it's a pretty noticeable effect as $500 on top of a $2600 bike can add up. Do you have any suggestions on a "bang for your buck" set of tubeless 29er wheels?
    I do... but first what do you weight and what style of riding do you do?
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  5. #5
    AZ
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    Read this thread before you buy new wheels:

    How noticeable is 200-300 grams in wheels?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace5high View Post
    I do... but first what do you weight and what style of riding do you do?
    I weigh about 165 and I ride single-track that has many roots and rocky sections as well as a few slight drop offs as well as some decent sized hills. The "style" I've been working on is riding "loose" to go faster. But, riding a 29er, I do attack some of the obstacles head on instead of going around them and letting the bigger wheels and suspension do some work. So, I guess a flimsy wheel might bend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Read this thread before you buy new wheels:

    How noticeable is 200-300 grams in wheels?
    Excellent, I'll read it here shortly and then check back into this thread. Thanks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    I weigh about 165 and I ride single-track that has many roots and rocky sections as well as a few slight drop offs as well as some decent sized hills. The "style" I've been working on is riding "loose" to go faster. But, riding a 29er, I do attack some of the obstacles head on instead of going around them and letting the bigger wheels and suspension do some work. So, I guess a flimsy wheel might bend.
    The $300-320 deals on 2011's are getting harder to come by, like first like is out, $400 still a good price for these though IMO... I love this wheel set and plenty strong to tote my 190lb butt around

    SunRingle Black Flag 29er Wheels - Outside Outfitters

    Sun Ringle 29" XC Black Flag Expert Wheelset 9/15/20 Black from ModernBike.com
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace5high View Post
    The $300-320 deals on 2011's are getting harder to come by, like first like is out, $400 still a good price for these though IMO... I love this wheel set and plenty strong to tote my 190lb butt around

    SunRingle Black Flag 29er Wheels - Outside Outfitters

    Sun Ringle 29" XC Black Flag Expert Wheelset 9/15/20 Black from ModernBike.com
    Awesome! As soon as I finish this movie I'm watching I'll read that thread above and check those wheels out. I appreciate the links.

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    Congratulations, really nice bike!!!

    Todd

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Read this thread before you buy new wheels:

    How noticeable is 200-300 grams in wheels?
    So, in reading this link, it seems to point out (with factual math) that the difference, in theory shouldn't be that dramatic. And, has the possibility to negatively impact ride quality and stiffness. Hmmm, the debate goes round and round. I'm wondering if many people that feel a huge difference are experiencing a placebo effect. Most definitely food for thought!

  12. #12
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    i use and reccomend the blackflag pros im 200# and ride a bit of everything they r strong stiff and light

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    So, in reading this link, it seems to point out (with factual math) that the difference, in theory shouldn't be that dramatic. And, has the possibility to negatively impact ride quality and stiffness. Hmmm, the debate goes round and round. I'm wondering if many people that feel a huge difference are experiencing a placebo effect. Most definitely food for thought!
    There is no placebo effect. Changing rotational weight makes a huge difference, especially the farther that weight is from a center hub. That means changing rotational weight on 29" wheels has a more significant effect than on a 26er. This is basic physics, there really is no disproving physics. Anyone that talks out there butt about a 2x or 3x multiplier and equaling a certain number of static weight loss on the frame is doing just that... talking out their butt. You cannot compare rotational weight to static weight because transferring motor watts into a centrifugal force and the power required to do so on a mountain bike (where we have very limited power to begin with) is difficult, and tiny amounts of weight make a difference in your legs short term and long term.

    This is why anyone who's gone from 500gram rims to 350 gram rims says they noticed the difference immediately. Its the physics majors that spend their solving math problems with no real life experience that would argue otherwise. Its actually a more complicated problem than some pretend it is, and has to do with certain amounts of weight at exact distances from a center point, most wheels are not the same so there is not one simple solution.

    Example: You can have two 29" wheel sets both weigh exactly 2000 grams. But riding them would feel noticeable different, this is because set A has heavier hubs and disk brakes and lighter spokes and rims. Set B has light hubs light disks but heavy spokes and heavy rims.

    Anyone that thinks rotational weight doesn't have significant effect especially on 29" wheels I would say to try an experiment. Go Mount a tire thats least 50 grams lighter on your rear wheel and take it for a spin after you finish one with your regular tire. By some peoples theory this tiny amount of weight would not be noticeable, but it will be. I can easily tell the difference between my Ikons (585 grams) and Racing Ralph's (605 grams) on the rear.

    Last point, you mention "negatively impact ride quality and stiffness". There is only truth to this if you are selecting wheels/rims that are too light for either the rider weight or style of riding. Thats why I asked you first both those things. Stiffness is an important factor when choosing wheels, but most people who stay within a certain "safe range" will not notice the stiffness difference. Example, Im 190lbs and went from free ride wheels (2300 gram) to those sun ringles I posted (1825grams or so). Even though I could tell a small difference in stiffness the weight benefits far outweighed any lost stiffness. Now had I gone to a wheelset that was too light for my style and body weight, I would probably be sitting here telling you that "buying light wheels was a terrible mistake". However Im not

    Thats all I have to say, good luck on whichever direction you decide on
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

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    Buy this best Hub you can justify and the rim will follow. I bent my rear bontrager rim and found that the stock wheels are the weakest link my bike a Trek Fuel 100 Carbon. Once I tired out a CK free-hub I was in heaven my knees felt the response within the first 30 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    Awesome! As soon as I finish this movie I'm watching I'll read that thread above and check those wheels out. I appreciate the links.
    You can check e mail and keep up with this thread while watching a movie. But you can't read another thread?

  16. #16
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    At your weight check out the Stan's Crest with their house ZTR hubs. Home Page I have two sets of their wheels with the ZTR hubs, and I have been happy with both. If you get them from on online retailer, you ca get the for a little less than $500. You can get a sub 1500 gram set of wheels, you will notice the difference big time.

  17. #17
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    Totally agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by dbcparker View Post
    Buy this best Hub you can justify and the rim will follow. I bent my rear bontrager rim and found that the stock wheels are the weakest link my bike a Trek Fuel 100 Carbon. Once I tired out a CK free-hub I was in heaven my knees felt the response within the first 30 minutes.
    Chris King rear hubs are actually very cheap... in the long run.

    I can't recall how many years I've had some of my CK hubs but I think one rear is at least 10 years old with multiple wheel builds on it.

    Performance/durability-wise I do not think anything can touch them over the long haul. They also have awsome resale.

    A wheel upgrade is likely the best upgrade you can make to a bike.

    TRY THIS.... Consider buying just a _rear_wheel alone. Something like a CK on a Flow and set it up tubeless. As much as I like King hubs I find using them on the front wheel is not completely necessary. I find Stan's front stock wheel is a good buy. Assuming you like the Flow rear, later on, save up and get the front.


    Think of your wheelset more in terms of a performance upgrade rather than a weight upgrade. I always look at my wheelset in terms of overall performance - weight is just one facet. Assume you are going to shell out some real cash for the wheel - otherwise save your time and money and ride what you've got. You get what you pay for. Keep in mind that no matter how much weight you shave off the rim and hub you still have to think about the rubber. Nothing performs like big, fat, heavy rubber when it comes to control on the trail.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace5high View Post
    There is no placebo effect. Changing rotational weight makes a huge difference, especially the farther that weight is from a center hub. That means changing rotational weight on 29" wheels has a more significant effect than on a 26er. This is basic physics, there really is no disproving physics. Anyone that talks out there butt about a 2x or 3x multiplier and equaling a certain number of static weight loss on the frame is doing just that... talking out their butt. You cannot compare rotational weight to static weight because transferring motor watts into a centrifugal force and the power required to do so on a mountain bike (where we have very limited power to begin with) is difficult, and tiny amounts of weight make a difference in your legs short term and long term.

    This is why anyone who's gone from 500gram rims to 350 gram rims says they noticed the difference immediately. Its the physics majors that spend their solving math problems with no real life experience that would argue otherwise. Its actually a more complicated problem than some pretend it is, and has to do with certain amounts of weight at exact distances from a center point, most wheels are not the same so there is not one simple solution.

    Example: You can have two 29" wheel sets both weigh exactly 2000 grams. But riding them would feel noticeable different, this is because set A has heavier hubs and disk brakes and lighter spokes and rims. Set B has light hubs light disks but heavy spokes and heavy rims.

    Anyone that thinks rotational weight doesn't have significant effect especially on 29" wheels I would say to try an experiment. Go Mount a tire thats least 50 grams lighter on your rear wheel and take it for a spin after you finish one with your regular tire. By some peoples theory this tiny amount of weight would not be noticeable, but it will be. I can easily tell the difference between my Ikons (585 grams) and Racing Ralph's (605 grams) on the rear.

    Last point, you mention "negatively impact ride quality and stiffness". There is only truth to this if you are selecting wheels/rims that are too light for either the rider weight or style of riding. Thats why I asked you first both those things. Stiffness is an important factor when choosing wheels, but most people who stay within a certain "safe range" will not notice the stiffness difference. Example, Im 190lbs and went from free ride wheels (2300 gram) to those sun ringles I posted (1825grams or so). Even though I could tell a small difference in stiffness the weight benefits far outweighed any lost stiffness. Now had I gone to a wheelset that was too light for my style and body weight, I would probably be sitting here telling you that "buying light wheels was a terrible mistake". However Im not

    Thats all I have to say, good luck on whichever direction you decide on
    Wow! Thanks for the informative post. I'll think I'll take a chance and buy a set and see if I can notice the difference. Worst case I can just sell them off to somebody if it's not a big enough impact for me. Your compelling argument makes very good reasons and examples on why lighter wheels might be worth it. See, that's why I posted this thread. I tried to do a little reading on the subject before, and stumbled across MANY conflicting reviews. There seems to be no strict general consensus. Thanks again, positive rep coming your way.n Oh, I almost forgot! You noticed a mere 20 gram weight difference in JUST the rear wheel. Very impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Troll View Post
    You can check e mail and keep up with this thread while watching a movie. But you can't read another thread?
    Sure, I'd say it's easier to check if a couple new posts were added to my thread while the old lady takes a bathroom break than it is to read a complete two page thread with mathematical equations involved, wouldn't you think? But thanks for your excellent input, or lack thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_America1976 View Post
    At your weight check out the Stan's Crest with their house ZTR hubs. Home Page I have two sets of their wheels with the ZTR hubs, and I have been happy with both. If you get them from on online retailer, you ca get the for a little less than $500. You can get a sub 1500 gram set of wheels, you will notice the difference big time.
    Thank you, It's another set I will keep in mind along with Ace's selections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Chris King rear hubs are actually very cheap... in the long run.

    I can't recall how many years I've had some of my CK hubs but I think one rear is at least 10 years old with multiple wheel builds on it.

    Performance/durability-wise I do not think anything can touch them over the long haul. They also have awsome resale.

    A wheel upgrade is likely the best upgrade you can make to a bike.

    TRY THIS.... Consider buying just a _rear_wheel alone. Something like a CK on a Flow and set it up tubeless. As much as I like King hubs I find using them on the front wheel is not completely necessary. I find Stan's front stock wheel is a good buy. Assuming you like the Flow rear, later on, save up and get the front.


    Think of your wheelset more in terms of a performance upgrade rather than a weight upgrade. I always look at my wheelset in terms of overall performance - weight is just one facet. Assume you are going to shell out some real cash for the wheel - otherwise save your time and money and ride what you've got. You get what you pay for. Keep in mind that no matter how much weight you shave off the rim and hub you still have to think about the rubber. Nothing performs like big, fat, heavy rubber when it comes to control on the trail.
    Wow, this is the first somebody has suggested to change just the rear. Sounds novel, but If I do it, I'm all in and will do both at the same time. You do make excellent points when you talk about looking at more than just the weight upgrade and look at them as a performance upgrade instead. And yes, I agree, tires seem to make a huge difference on any vehicle, I'm sure they make a huge difference on a bicycle. My other hobby is cars which I'm always upgrading somehow so I see where you are coming from. Thanks for your input.

  19. #19
    AZ
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    How much does your stock wheel set weigh?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    How much does your stock wheel set weigh?
    I don't honestly know. I've been trying to find the weights so I can see exactly what I'd be losing in grams when switching but no to no avail. This is the only info on specialized site about the bike and it's wheels.

    RIMS Roval 29, alloy disc, 26mm wide, 32h
    FRONT HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, laser-etched logo, OS 24 end caps, sealed cartridge bearing, RWS, 32h
    REAR HUB Specialized Hi Lo 142+ disc, laser-etched logo, double-sealed cartridge bearing, 12mm thru-axle, 32h
    FRONT TIRE Specialized Purgatory Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, dual-compound, 29x2.2"
    REAR TIRE Specialized Ground Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, 29x2.1"

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    I don't honestly know. I've been trying to find the weights so I can see exactly what I'd be losing in grams when switching but no to no avail. This is the only info on specialized site about the bike and it's wheels.

    RIMS Roval 29, alloy disc, 26mm wide, 32h
    FRONT HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, laser-etched logo, OS 24 end caps, sealed cartridge bearing, RWS, 32h
    REAR HUB Specialized Hi Lo 142+ disc, laser-etched logo, double-sealed cartridge bearing, 12mm thru-axle, 32h
    FRONT TIRE Specialized Purgatory Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, dual-compound, 29x2.2"
    REAR TIRE Specialized Ground Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, 29x2.1"


    You should be able to change those over to tubeless and I think they weigh between 1700 and 1800 grams.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    I don't honestly know. I've been trying to find the weights so I can see exactly what I'd be losing in grams when switching but no to no avail. This is the only info on specialized site about the bike and it's wheels.

    RIMS Roval 29, alloy disc, 26mm wide, 32h
    FRONT HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, laser-etched logo, OS 24 end caps, sealed cartridge bearing, RWS, 32h
    REAR HUB Specialized Hi Lo 142+ disc, laser-etched logo, double-sealed cartridge bearing, 12mm thru-axle, 32h
    FRONT TIRE Specialized Purgatory Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, dual-compound, 29x2.2"
    REAR TIRE Specialized Ground Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, 29x2.1"
    This was my only concern... There are many Roval builds at different weights. Makes it kinda hard to know where your weigh in. This would be ideal if your going to save 200-300 grams.

    I think the safest thing you could do is get a grams scale, pull off your cassette, disk rotors and weigh your current wheelset with tubes and all. This would be a very telling thing to do, and could certainly help point you in the right direction
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  23. #23
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    I would also go to the tire/wheel section threads before you decide to go tubeless. I was going to go tubeless till reading about them. Some messy regular maintenance is required.
    2011 Kona unit with some carbon.

  24. #24
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    American Classic Tubeless

    I have been riding them for over 2 years now, have 3 sets between 3 of my bikes. They are 1600g light, stiff enough for my 195# and pretty much bulletproof. I ride them pretty aggressively in rock gardens without any issues. So far - did not have to true them...Hubs are smooth and rear hub has steel splines to protect the free hub body from being nicked by cogs... they spin forever. Spokes are standard and you can request a set of spare spokes from AC when you purchase them.

    They hold air as good as any other tubeless or even UST certified rims and you can run wide tires - due to extra width of the rim.

    After riding many wheels - in my opinion - this is the best bang for the buck. Easily...

    Tubeless setup can be a bit of work only if you want to change tires every couple of months. Otherwise - set it and forget it. By the way - DO IT.

    Hope this helps...

    Quote Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post
    I don't honestly know. I've been trying to find the weights so I can see exactly what I'd be losing in grams when switching but no to no avail. This is the only info on specialized site about the bike and it's wheels.

    RIMS Roval 29, alloy disc, 26mm wide, 32h
    FRONT HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, laser-etched logo, OS 24 end caps, sealed cartridge bearing, RWS, 32h
    REAR HUB Specialized Hi Lo 142+ disc, laser-etched logo, double-sealed cartridge bearing, 12mm thru-axle, 32h
    FRONT TIRE Specialized Purgatory Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, dual-compound, 29x2.2"
    REAR TIRE Specialized Ground Control, 60 TPI, 2Bliss ready aramid bead, 29x2.1"

  25. #25
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    Going Up

    rotational weight doesn't it only affect you when going up hills? If you agree then replace your tires first then the Hub next.

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