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  1. #1
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    Most Fun and Flickable 29er?

    What are your opinions in regards to the most fun and flickable 29er.

    Examples? Pics?

  2. #2
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    Hardtail or FS?

    I've been having a good time flicking my Nimble 9 around..

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    Honzo!

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    Banshee paradox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstews View Post
    Hardtail or FS?

    I've been having a good time flicking my Nimble 9 around..
    I was thinking more Hardtail, but open to opinions on FS as well.

    Also, I have a question. How much of an effect does the chainstay length actually have on the overall "flickability" or "26ER feel" if you will?

    What about the weight of the bike. I saw a video of a guy that seemed to be throwing around a Charge Cooker 29ER quite easily and that bike is ~30.00lbs.

  6. #6
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    Most Fun and Flickable 29er?

    Mine weighs in around 30 and have no problem throwing it around. Dropper post and flick away.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by For Waukee View Post
    I was thinking more Hardtail, but open to opinions on FS as well.

    Also, I have a question. How much of an effect does the chainstay length actually have on the overall "flickability" or "26ER feel" if you will?

    What about the weight of the bike. I saw a video of a guy that seemed to be throwing around a Charge Cooker 29ER quite easily and that bike is ~30.00lbs.
    A lot I think. My Karate Monkey had 16.9" stays and was plenty fun and flickable, in fact I think they had that one nailed right at the beginning. There are a lot of fun flickable FS bikes as well, but realize if they start to get slack they are not going to be super flickable, they'll be more relaxed and steer slower, etc. Just like a 26er all mountain or DH bike compared to a 26er XC bike, an all mountain 29er is going to be more sluggish than a 29er XC bike. What you want is for it to remain maneuverable enough that it excels at the things you want it to excel at. To that extent, for an all-mountain bike, I waited to get a 29er FS bike until they could make something with the chainstay length I thought would be acceptable. I'm loving the bike right now, but again, it's more sluggish than a 29er XC bike, so realize that there is always give and take.

    The Karate Monkey was really fun with a rigid fork, because the steering was so precise and you could "push it" into turns much harder. It's hard to describe, but the flex with ANY suspension fork gives you a lot less steering precision and control, although it gives you more control in other ways obviously. Going around switchbacks you could really whip it around due to the low front end and rigid fork. I'd still take suspension over the rigid fork for fatigue and obstacles, but it's fun to ride the rigid every once and a while for it's benefits.

    I really like that new Kona Process 111, cool idea with shorter travel but still slack with shortish stays. That would be fun for a lot of places that don't call for a ton of travel, but again, not as nimble as an XC bike of course.

    Weight is not a huge issue to me unless it's significantly more than 32lbs or so. Everyone is different here, but I've been training and getting stronger for the last few years, which has helped dramatically. If you are used to single speeding or can ride like a single speeder, you can often outclimb anyone that's not at that level of fitness. I'm riding a heavy snowbike at times and busting out the climbs just fine with a standing-technique. It's like riding a single speed and you always have to remember SS guys climb your hills just fine with only one gear, so you can darn sure do it on an easier gear than them without having to go into the "easiest" combo. This just means that it's not the weight of the bike so much, it's your conditioning and strength.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Forgive me for not being in tune with the terms, but what exactly does 'slack' mean? Also, thanks for the detailed response.

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    Very happy with how my Banshee Paradox flicks *IF* you can get the seat low enough to get it out of the way. If I slam the seat without a dropper post, it's perfect. With the dropper post slammed (Kindshock Supernatural 125 mm), the seat is still just a bit too high. IMHO, seat tube should be 2" shorter on the Paradox if you want to run a dropper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by For Waukee View Post
    Forgive me for not being in tune with the terms, but what exactly does 'slack' mean?
    Usually this refers to the geometry of the bike, most notably the head angle although seat tube angles vary a fair bit too. The head tube angle is what most people focus on though. For 29 ers I'd say anything under about 69 degrees is fairly slack.

    As far as the original question goes my vote, like a lot of the others, would be for an all mountain hardtail like a Honzo in terms of being flickable.

  11. #11
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    OS Bikes Blackbuck Gen1 with the 435mm forks. Crazy responsive handling, even with the longer / less rake Salsa Cromoto Grande forks it is more responsive than most small wheeled bikes

    Mark Slate nails it again....I would expect nothing less from the designer of the WTB Phoenix!
    "Put any one on one of these singlespeed bikes and they could not help but have fun"
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  12. #12
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    I know the list so far has leaned towards HT, but the Transition Covert is a super flickable FS. I never thought I'd own a 29er that is so playful.
    Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay. Um Can you repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about uuhhh, things. Uhh... the things.

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    I will probably get blasted for my opinion on this, but i think the short chain stay "flickable" buzz is kinda silly.

    I surf on a 10' longboard. It has huge advantages over short boards when it comes to catching waves, but being a longboard it is *supposed* to surf like an aircraft carrier. Thing is, when i position my self correctly and carve hard i can cut back no problem. I kick spray and lip bash like a shortboarder as long as my technique and set up are correct. I get all the wave hog advantages and really have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    When i got my 29 it felt the same way. Some of the very advantages i love about my bike involve the longer wheel base and stability of the thing. A longer chain stay and LESS flickability actually helps on steep climbs and fast descents. The faster i go the better the bike handles. When i find my self on trail sections that your flickable bikes excel at, it comes down to proper technique, set up, and weight distribution. I have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    Not hating on anyone for personal preference, outside of races the best rider is the one having the most fun after all... but i think to much weight is being placed on how well a bike performs at under 10mph. There are people who will seek out bikes with this style of geometry because of threads like this without understanding why and what they are giving up.
    "Bigring, that's deep. ...Well, I suspect it is. I didn't read it."

  14. #14
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    Most Fun and Flickable 29er?

    The most fun I've had on a 29er was a Tallboy LTc demo with enve wheels. Popped off everything! It's a big bike, with relatively long chainstays, but it didn't matter. That thing was great fun. I was completely sold.

    If I could afford it obviously.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRingGrinder View Post
    I will probably get blasted for my opinion on this, but i think the short chain stay "flickable" buzz is kinda silly.

    I surf on a 10' longboard. It has huge advantages over short boards when it comes to catching waves, but being a longboard it is *supposed* to surf like an aircraft carrier. Thing is, when i position my self correctly and carve hard i can cut back no problem. I kick spray and lip bash like a shortboarder as long as my technique and set up are correct. I get all the wave hog advantages and really have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    When i got my 29 it felt the same way. Some of the very advantages i love about my bike involve the longer wheel base and stability of the thing. A longer chain stay and LESS flickability actually helps on steep climbs and fast descents. The faster i go the better the bike handles. When i find my self on trail sections that your flickable bikes excel at, it comes down to proper technique, set up, and weight distribution. I have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    Not hating on anyone for personal preference, outside of races the best rider is the one having the most fun after all... but i think to much weight is being placed on how well a bike performs at under 10mph. There are people who will seek out bikes with this style of geometry because of threads like this without understanding why and what they are giving up.
    With you 100% on this. I mean, I'm not the best rider and don't have the most experience riding different bikes, but your explanation just makes total sense to me. Just based on research, I feel that what you lose in stability and climbing strength with shorter 'stays and wheelbase is harder to make up with proper technique then that of longer 'stays and wheelbase.

    With long 'stays, sure you're sacrificing a bit of maneuverability, but proper technique and conditioning can make that up in the long run.

    What about headtube angle? how much does it have to do with the steering and control of the bike? Would anyone say that it is more/less important than chainstay length and wheelbase?

  16. #16
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    I dunno, I think my Banshee Prime is very fun, but if I flick it I find it hurts my finger, maybe the alu is too hard to make it a nice flickable bike
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  17. #17
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    You ask a good question. Many fellas these days really like their short stayed/slack front bikes (eg, Paradox, Nimble 9, Honzo, etc), but after briefly owning a Nimble 9, I really didn't care for it. Yes, the short stays made it very easy to loft the front wheel, but I didn't get along with the slack front end when the front wheel was on the ground, which was most of the time. It just handled in a very dull manner. So for me, the head angle has more importance than the rear chainstays (and of course, these are both part of the overall package, rider position, etc etc)

    I think two good candidates have already been mentioned:

    - Karate Monkey: still relatively short stays, but a steeper head angle. I've had one of these in the past, and will probably get one again in the future

    - OS Blackbuck: the short fork makes this very, very responsive.

    I currently have a Blackbuck. One idea I have kicking around is to combine the Blackbuck fork with the KM frame...

    Quote Originally Posted by For Waukee View Post
    What about headtube angle? how much does it have to do with the steering and control of the bike? Would anyone say that it is more/less important than chainstay length and wheelbase?
    WTB: Specialized AWOL frameset, XL

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    Sorry If this is getting a little off topic, but would you guys consider a XC 29er (of course!) with 17.72 chainstays, 43.34 wheelbase, 24.61 TT, and 72 degree HT to be more on the short and "twitchy" side or long and stable side?

    By reading all of these detailed and intelligent responses I can tell you guys on here really know your stuff and just want to get your opinions.

  19. #19
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    Those look like pretty typical numbers for a size Large XC bike. In my experience, that's more stable than twitchy. But, my trails are largely flattish and twisty, not fast downhills with lots of chunk. For people who ride that kind of thing, they will probably cry, "too steep!"

    One more thing: when you're looking at head angle, you also need to think about the fork rake. These two numbers combine to give you trail, which has a big influence on how the bike steers. Most 29er forks have standardized around a narrow range of rakes (45mm, give or take), but there are a few outliers (Trek/Gary Fisher G2 and the Blackbuck mentioned above, both have more rake = less trail= quicker handling for a given head angle)

    I made some trail comparisons at the bottom of this bike review.

    Quote Originally Posted by For Waukee View Post
    Sorry If this is getting a little off topic, but would you guys consider a XC 29er (of course!) with 17.72 chainstays, 43.34 wheelbase, 24.61 TT, and 72 degree HT to be more on the short and "twitchy" side or long and stable side?

    By reading all of these detailed and intelligent responses I can tell you guys on here really know your stuff and just want to get your opinions.
    WTB: Specialized AWOL frameset, XL

  20. #20
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    There's some good thoughts (and some effort at actual experimentation) on chain stay length here: All-Mountain or ?Just-Mountain? and other related numbers. 44 Bikes

    Chainstay length certainly plays a role in a bikes handling, as does headtube angle, and a number of other synergistic factors, that's why we're discussing them. One thing I think is sometimes overlooked is what sort of terrain you ride (as Seat_boy mentioned) and what you want you bike to do on that terrain.

    @seat_boy, got the N9 built up, by the way. Loving it sofar! Thanks again.

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    I just switched from a Niner Rip to a Yeti SB95C and I feel like I am on a 26" bike as far as being flickable and getting air. The Niner did not air out like this Yeti! Hands down the most predictable and best pedaling 5" travel bike around.

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    Nimble9 or the Yelli screamy

  23. #23
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    Most fun and flickable? Any frame sized down one.
    #willofthesun and author of the most viewed MTBR thread: Platform Pedal Shootout

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRingGrinder View Post
    I will probably get blasted for my opinion on this, but i think the short chain stay "flickable" buzz is kinda silly.

    I surf on a 10' longboard. It has huge advantages over short boards when it comes to catching waves, but being a longboard it is *supposed* to surf like an aircraft carrier. Thing is, when i position my self correctly and carve hard i can cut back no problem. I kick spray and lip bash like a shortboarder as long as my technique and set up are correct. I get all the wave hog advantages and really have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    When i got my 29 it felt the same way. Some of the very advantages i love about my bike involve the longer wheel base and stability of the thing. A longer chain stay and LESS flickability actually helps on steep climbs and fast descents. The faster i go the better the bike handles. When i find my self on trail sections that your flickable bikes excel at, it comes down to proper technique, set up, and weight distribution. I have not felt limited in maneuverability since i got the feel for it.

    Not hating on anyone for personal preference, outside of races the best rider is the one having the most fun after all... but i think to much weight is being placed on how well a bike performs at under 10mph. There are people who will seek out bikes with this style of geometry because of threads like this without understanding why and what they are giving up.
    Longboards don't surf like short boards. They can do some of the same moves, but are slower. You only get used to doing things in slow motion. Your analogy supports flickable (at least for people who have ridden short and long boards)
    Also not sure why you think flickable is only done at slow speeds?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by illnacord View Post
    Most fun and flickable? Any frame sized down one.
    +1

    At 6'2, I generally ride medium sized frames with slack head angles. Medium to keep the wheelbase in check and a slack head angle to keep it stable. YMMV.
    Extreme stationary biker.

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