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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Any 160 travel ebikes in the test? I hear they climb pretty well
    hee hee. That would be a clusterbomb if I threw a couple ebikes in the mix. I rode that new BMC 150mm and Kenevo 170mm after all. lolz
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  2. #102
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    Thank you for all the feedback so far. Here's a teaser from last week's shoot.

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Thank you for all the feedback so far. Here's a teaser from last week's shoot.

    So is pushability going to be a graded category?
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  4. #104
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    Who is the guy in red/blue jersey, jumping and stuff? I'll trust his opinion the most. Just sayin'

    The guy who probably endo'd at the end...not so much
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    Interesting at 1:29, some walked and some rode that climb. I can't tell what the first bike is being walked but the second is a Wrecker. I'd like to hear the response behind that.

    Other than that, they all seem super nimble, fast and fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Interesting at 1:29, some walked and some rode that climb. I can't tell what the first bike is being walked but the second is a Wrecker. I'd like to hear the response behind that.

    Other than that, they all seem super nimble, fast and fun.
    Someone has to correct you, it's called Wreckoning not Wrecker
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    So is pushability going to be a graded category?
    Walkability and crashability rating.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Interesting at 1:29, some walked and some rode that climb. I can't tell what the first bike is being walked but the second is a Wrecker. I'd like to hear the response behind that.

    Other than that, they all seem super nimble, fast and fun.
    That trail is very steep to climb before the bikes enter the frame. All the bikes had Eagle 1x12 where some had a 30 tooth ring and 34 on another.

    So pay no attention to what bikes are walking and not. Interesting to see that the bike climbing is a Marin Wolf Ridge in wide open shock position. It doesn't bob.

    The Wreckoning too is a magic climber. It has a secret that we're finally able to articulate. When you put the dropper up and lean forward, it firms up significantly.
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  9. #109
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    Quite honestly, if that's all the trail type you plan on taking these things on, useless shootout - Where's the big rock gardens, jumps, drops, tech and tech climbs?? Also, might consider getting riders who can actually ride those bikes close to their potential......
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Quite honestly, if that's all the trail type you plan on taking these things on, useless shootout - Where's the big rock gardens, jumps, drops, tech and tech climbs?? Also, might consider getting riders who can actually ride those bikes close to their potential......
    Hopefully some Braile DH and maybe a few trails to be unnamed....Waterfall. Santa Cruz riding is amazing and I'm sure thats just a small snippet of what terrain has been ridden but my limited experience is lots of buff and flow style trails will short stretches of steep and techy downs that end quick before you need to get on the gas and pedal back up. Not many rock gardens I've ridden in Norcal coastal but not neccesary IMHO to asses the capabilities of these bikes.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Quite honestly, if that's all the trail type you plan on taking these things on, useless shootout - Where's the big rock gardens, jumps, drops, tech and tech climbs?? Also, might consider getting riders who can actually ride those bikes close to their potential......
    You just have a way with words huh? Such a bright ray of sunshine.

    We've been riding these bikes for two+ months on a huge array of trails.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    You just have a way with words huh? Such a bright ray of sunshine.

    We've been riding these bikes for two+ months on a huge array of trails.

    It looked like a lot of fun, but nothing I wouldn't bring my 140mm bike to. Do you have footage of chunky trails?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    Hopefully some Braile DH and maybe a few trails to be unnamed....Waterfall. Santa Cruz riding is amazing and I'm sure thats just a small snippet of what terrain has been ridden but my limited experience is lots of buff and flow style trails will short stretches of steep and techy downs that end quick before you need to get on the gas and pedal back up. Not many rock gardens I've ridden in Norcal coastal but not neccesary IMHO to asses the capabilities of these bikes.
    Sounds like you know the area well. We threw in some Tahoe and Downieville too. A couple bikes got to go to Northstar and Wisslah.
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    You and your test crew took the time and effort to put this project together and I for one am very grateful. Also I had a feeling you added some Sierra riding to this test and people who make judgements based on a quick 1:30 sizzle reel with negative comments really need to get a grip and not post. To my recolection nobody in the bike industry has put together a H2H shootout like this with 1 wheel size and certain travel requirements, you guy's ROCK !!!!!

    I just posted my thought on the 2018 Orbea Rallon in the Orbea thread and I'll be very curious how it pans out in your shootout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    You and your test crew took the time and effort to put this project together and I for one am very grateful. Also I had a feeling you added some Sierra riding to this test and people who make judgements based on a quick 1:30 sizzle reel with negative comments really need to get a grip and not post. To my recolection nobody in the bike industry has put together a H2H shootout like this with 1 wheel size and certain travel requirements, you guy's ROCK !!!!!

    I just posted my thought on the 2018 Orbea Rallon in the Orbea thread and I'll be very curious how it pans out in your shootout.
    Agreed, thanks FC, this will help me decide my next bike to replace my E29.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Quite honestly, if that's all the trail type you plan on taking these things on, useless shootout - Where's the big rock gardens, jumps, drops, tech and tech climbs?? Also, might consider getting riders who can actually ride those bikes close to their potential......
    They heard you were busy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Someone has to Correct you, it's called Wreckoning not Wrecker
    I'm going to be nice...
    No one has to correct me, I know how to say it. Many "Wreckoning" owners call it the Wrecker, I think you can figure why.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Quite honestly, if that's all the trail type you plan on taking these things on, useless shootout - Where's the big rock gardens, jumps, drops, tech and tech climbs?? Also, might consider getting riders who can actually ride those bikes close to their potential......
    Hmm, since those trails are obviously too tame and XC... Those riders looked like it was their first time out, not a single jump... Really?

    Give em a break, he gave you teaser clip.

    I too wish to say thank you Francis for your work on this. I knew you've been on the Evil for a while and was curious and waiting for your feedback, but now to hear you are doing all this other stuff, nice. Were you riding all these months ago for this purpose, a shootout comparison? If so, I think it gives us a better understanding you have turned out hundreds of miles on each of these rigs. Thus better perspectives. Unlike the Bike bible tests, where they only get on a day or two.

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    If by that you mean I'm not with the "everyone deserves a medal for participating" BS that's prominent these days, then hell yes!
    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    You just have a way with words huh? Such a bright ray of sunshine. We've been riding these bikes for two+ months on a huge array of trails.
    Would be a waste of time, unlike others, I am not ashamed to admit where my skills end and it most definitely is probably right before what a proper 130mm travel 29er can handle, I would not be able to come close to pushing one of those bikes to it's limit. But hey, whatever
    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    They heard you were busy.
    People who put up a 1:30 "teaser" showing people riding bikes where <100mm travel bikes would have no trouble while trying to pro-port a shoot out for 150mm> travel bikes, should expect just such a response.
    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    You and your test crew took the time and effort to put this project together and I for one am very grateful. Also I had a feeling you added some Sierra riding to this test and people who make judgements based on a quick 1:30 sizzle reel with negative comments really need to get a grip and not post.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    If by that you mean I'm not with the "everyone deserves a medal for participating" BS that's prominent these days, then hell yes!


    Would be a waste of time, unlike others, I am not ashamed to admit where my skills end and it most definitely is probably right before what a proper 130mm travel 29er can handle, I would not be able to come close to pushing one of those bikes to it's limit. But hey, whatever


    People who put up a 1:30 "teaser" showing people riding bikes where <100mm travel bikes would have no trouble while trying to pro-port a shoot out for 150mm> travel bikes, should expect just such a response.
    I hate to admit it, but for ONCE I agree with him. Here is a teaser video from a friend of mine this is more of what I planned to see when I saw long travel 29er teaser video. https://www.pinkbike.com/video/478027/
    Jerk move as it is to call out stuff like this, but how are we supposed to take words of this does better than that when the riding shown in the teaser has only one guy able to make a transition of a jump and some of the most awful looking cornering I have seen this side of a cat 3 (beginners) racers run. Yeah I am a jerk for agreeing and calling a spade a spade. He just said what everyone was thinking while watching the video and dose NOT feel the need to kiss the admins ass. Thanks for the shootout, but it will hold zero merit it the people that are willing to use a long travel bike for what it is capable of. However seems like a great way for the MTBR guys to call manufactures and get free top end bikes to ride on all summer for free and then write up a quick review and send back all the bikes and buy the one they liked the best. Extreme media demo program.........

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I hate to admit it, but for ONCE I agree with him. Here is a teaser video from a friend of mine this is more of what I planned to see when I saw long travel 29er teaser video. https://www.pinkbike.com/video/478027/
    Jerk move as it is to call out stuff like this, but how are we supposed to take words of this does better than that when the riding shown in the teaser has only one guy able to make a transition of a jump and some of the most awful looking cornering I have seen this side of a cat 3 (beginners) racers run. Yeah I am a jerk for agreeing and calling a spade a spade. He just said what everyone was thinking while watching the video and dose NOT feel the need to kiss the admins ass. Thanks for the shootout, but it will hold zero merit it the people that are willing to use a long travel bike for what it is capable of. However seems like a great way for the MTBR guys to call manufactures and get free top end bikes to ride on all summer for free and then write up a quick review and send back all the bikes and buy the one they liked the best. Extreme media demo program.........
    Your not wrong, but... In your estimation (percentage wise) how many people who buy a 150+mm bike actually use it to it's full potential?
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Your not wrong, but... In your estimation (percentage wise) how many people who buy a 150+mm bike actually use it to it's full potential?
    I would say about 30% bit we should like to read the reviews from people in that percentage instead of the other 70%. One of those, I know it was tested not just ridden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I hate to admit it, but for ONCE I agree with him. Here is a teaser video from a friend of mine this is more of what I planned to see when I saw long travel 29er teaser video. https://www.pinkbike.com/video/478027/
    Jerk move as it is to call out stuff like this, but how are we supposed to take words of this does better than that when the riding shown in the teaser has only one guy able to make a transition of a jump and some of the most awful looking cornering I have seen this side of a cat 3 (beginners) racers run. Yeah I am a jerk for agreeing and calling a spade a spade. He just said what everyone was thinking while watching the video and dose NOT feel the need to kiss the admins ass. Thanks for the shootout, but it will hold zero merit it the people that are willing to use a long travel bike for what it is capable of. However seems like a great way for the MTBR guys to call manufactures and get free top end bikes to ride on all summer for free and then write up a quick review and send back all the bikes and buy the one they liked the best. Extreme media demo program.........
    Well said, but that being said I appreciate the comparison.

    Doesn't really affect me I guess, but I do find it strange when people buy long travel bike when they clearly don't need them. Not that I really need something super long travel, but from what I've seen this comparison seems to be along that line of thinking.

  24. #124
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    I'll just remove myself from making any comments concerning what the last few posters have expressed because They are the same lame ass shit talkers that are to busy being armchair internet MTB pro's and not contributing anything positive to the subject matter.

    If this shootout isn't acceptable to your liking then move on and stop checking in on this topic.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I'll just remove myself from making any comments concerning what the last few posters have expressed because They are the same lame ass shit talkers that are to busy being armchair internet MTB pro's and not contributing anything positive to the subject matter.

    If this shootout isn't acceptable to your liking then move on and stop checking in on this topic.
    Aren't you the most passive aggressive shit talker on here, make yourself look above talking shit, then calling someone name?

    How do you know which class I race in? How do you know how and what trails I ride my bike on? Why would you come and start talking shit about me? Then act like you are "above" it? I do not understand how someone raising a concern they have is shit talk lame ass arm chair MTB pro stuff. Im glad one of your $50k worth of bikes is in the "test" but some of us use the "shootouts" to help judge on the ONE bike we can buy. So being able to voice our opinion on the test that will effect us more because "we" clearly do not have the disposable income people like yourself have. We use then to make the best educated decision we can based off what we can read. Not being able to spend a teachers wage in a year on bike to ride and sell and test till we find what we like. We must look at shootouts and reviews. Calling how and where those bikes are being tested DOES NOT count as being a "Shit talking armchair internet MTB pro" it is being a questioning reader of the basis that the review was based off. Does it not? Would you like to read a review of the best sport bikes if they were never taken to a track? Or the best 4x4 if it was never taken off road? You are clearly not poor so you are smart enough to make money, so clearly you are not a stupid man. So that means you understand the logic of what I am trying to say here. Oh wait aren't I just supposed to talk random shit here?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    Aren't you the most passive aggressive shit talker on here, make yourself look above talking shit, then calling someone name?

    How do you know which class I race in? How do you know how and what trails I ride my bike on? Why would you come and start talking shit about me? Then act like you are "above" it? I do not understand how someone raising a concern they have is shit talk lame ass arm chair MTB pro stuff. Im glad one of your $50k worth of bikes is in the "test" but some of us use the "shootouts" to help judge on the ONE bike we can buy. So being able to voice our opinion on the test that will effect us more because "we" clearly do not have the disposable income people like yourself have. We use then to make the best educated decision we can based off what we can read. Not being able to spend a teachers wage in a year on bike to ride and sell and test till we find what we like. We must look at shootouts and reviews. Calling how and where those bikes are being tested DOES NOT count as being a "Shit talking armchair internet MTB pro" it is being a questioning reader of the basis that the review was based off. Does it not? Would you like to read a review of the best sport bikes if they were never taken to a track? Or the best 4x4 if it was never taken off road? You are clearly not poor so you are smart enough to make money, so clearly you are not a stupid man. So that means you understand the logic of what I am trying to say here. Oh wait aren't I just supposed to talk random shit here?
    So now that you've decided to defend yourself for the comments you made as well as agreeing with other people's convoluted opinions based on what ???? a 90 second video clip that was released to judge the ability of the riders involved as well as trails previewed not being worthy of testing these bikes involved which I'm sure you've never ridden ?

    So actually who is the uneducated person ? I've ridden Braile DH, Downieville and parts of Tahoe that these bikes were tested on and I can tell you that your off base as the terrain is plenty challenging.

    I could care less about your riding level and what class you may race or how skilled or unskilled you may be as a rider. I'm instead concerned with helping others who love and enjoy riding mountain bikes no matter what skill level and to not discourage good information and the time that's been put into helping anyone who might care to know about this genre of bikes.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I'll just remove myself from making any comments concerning what the last few posters have expressed because They are the same lame ass shit talkers that are to busy being armchair internet MTB pro's and not contributing anything positive to the subject matter.

    If this shootout isn't acceptable to your liking then move on and stop checking in on this topic.
    Some people are watching this shoot out because they want a more capable bike than they already have, not just the next best thing, and will would probably use a video like this to help making a buying decisions. This is what a shoot out is geared for, this is why manufactures lend the bikes out.. nothing in the video show the need for more than a mid travel bike at most.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Some people are watching this shoot out because they want a more capable bike than they already have, not just the next best thing, and will would probably use a video like this to help making a buying decisions. This is what a shoot out is geared for, this is why manufactures lend the bikes out.. nothing in the video show the need for more than a mid travel bike at most.
    So a 90 second teaser clip that showed a quick preview of the riders on a few bikes is what gives you your opinion that the 2 months of testing FC and his team did is not worthy of helping someone with a decision on the bikes ridden ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    So now that you've decided to defend yourself for the comments you made as well as agreeing with other people's convoluted opinions based on what ???? a 90 second video clip that was released to judge the ability of the riders involved as well as trails previewed not being worthy of testing these bikes involved which I'm sure you've never ridden ?

    So actually who is the uneducated person ? I've ridden Braile DH, Downieville and parts of Tahoe that these bikes were tested on and I can tell you that your off base as the terrain is plenty challenging.

    I could care less about your riding level and what class you may race or how skilled or unskilled you may be as a rider. I'm instead concerned with helping others who love and enjoy riding mountain bikes no matter what skill level and to not discourage good information and the time that's been put into helping anyone who might care to know about this genre of bikes.
    When you show a 90 second clip saying here is a teaser of us testing the bikes and we are not supposed to judge based off that? Come the F on with that holier than though BS. You KNOW you thought the same thing seeing as how above all others you act I know you did....please dont lie to yourself anymore. That or these are your riding buddies in the video and are backing them up because it is your duty as a friend.... which I get. Im not backing down from anything I said, I still hold true to the statement that the VIDEO does not show the bikes being put through their paces period! People called the tester on it and for whatever reason you are backing the tester side and I am on the other side. We can agree to disagree on who is the most educated on the the trails they chose to test on.......BUT I will not back down from saying that the VIDEO was shown did not show the level of testing these bike were built to be marketed towards.

    "If" you are truly concerned about helping people know about this gene of bikes you would have come on and quoted the OP post about where they had said they tested them and helped by backing up that they are "plenty challenging" and will test the bikes and not to base it off that one video. Instead....nope you came on and talked shit calling people names and acting like you were above doing what you just did. I could care less about your motives that you tell yourself about. However mine have CLEAR AS DAY since my first post, calling into question the ways thebikes are being tested for this shootout based off the information that was presented to me and the others on this board that are "uneducated" on the trails these bikes were being tested on.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    So a 90 second teaser clip that showed a quick preview of the riders on a few bikes is what gives you your opinion that the 2 months of testing FC and his team did is not worthy of helping someone with a decision on the bikes ridden ?

    Yes, if the 90sec clip is called a teaser. Teasers generally show you stuff that make you want to to see more. In sales they call it your elevator spiel. What I'm,and most are saying is that the teaser failed to tease, didn't sell them on the shootout.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Yes, if the 90sec clip is called a teaser. Teasers generally show you stuff that make you want to to see more. In sales they call it your elevator spiel. What I'm,and most are saying is that the teaser failed to tease, didn't sell them on the shootout.
    May be overthinking this. That is trail is steeper than it looks and that is a single afternoon we had a video person. This is not a movie and the teaser video is just some clips in appreciation of the feedback here.

    Like I said, been riding the bikes for two months on average on good mix of terrain.

    Point taken though and will draw out the rough terrain capabilities of these bikes.

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  32. #132
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    Rough terrain ability is pretty dramatic on some of these bikes, specially the Marin and Wreckoning.

    A cool observation though is "what's the downside?". That often rings in my head as I do big climbs on these bikes and don't have to compromise much. The descending, cornering and 'error handling' of these bikes though are very rewarding.

    Some weights:

    Long travel 29er shootout-p1010068.jpg

    Long travel 29er shootout-p1010069.jpg

    Long travel 29er shootout-p1010070.jpg

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    Hilarious commentary, though the video is a touch sad.

    The real problem, if you look historically, is that mtbr has no editorial credibility. Until that changes, these "shootouts" will continue to be nothing more than a way for the staff here to ride free bikes.

    MTBR from a community perspective is an excellent resource. From a journalistic perspective, not so much.
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    Well, if you weigh them without pedals, I expect them to be ridden without pedals

    But apart from that minor quibble, I'm looking forward to the review and my hope is that it's definitive and objective, where you can actually tell the differences between the bikes without having to read between the lines. There are some significant levels of butt-hurt-ness already showing up. I think this is a great idea in terms of groups of bikes and I look forward to seeing the results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    All bikes have Eagle 1x12 and carbon wheels. Minions on the Intense and Santa Cruz and Michelins AM's on the Wreck.
    Frame size?

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    The climb up to and down Geronimo Trail would be a proper trail to test these bikes on.

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    Vital does excellent work. I love Geronimo, but climbing it is terrible.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

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    There should be a 3-3500$ price roof on reviews and tests. Bike prices keep spiralling out of control, and the media mostly reviewing the most expensive bikes just contribute to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPaulus View Post
    There should be a 3-3500$ price roof on reviews and tests. Bike prices keep spiralling out of control, and the media mostly reviewing the most expensive bikes just contribute to this.
    How so? Where did you get you arbitrary 3-3.5k? I paid 3k for my bike back in 2000.

    It wasn't made out of carbon fiber and wasn't nearly as capable as today's bikes.

    If you adjust for inflation, that'd put you close to $4,500.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    it's called Wreckoning not Wrecker
    The Wreckoning is Bluetiful.
    Do the math.

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    must resist....



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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Vital does excellent work. I love Geronimo, but climbing it is terrible.
    Agree. It wouldn't give you a good idea of what it's like to pound out a steep 2000' climb, or see how the bike jumps on bigger features, and so on. Geronimo is fun, but it's not an end-all of bike performance.
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    Sending only a couple of the bikes to Whistler and Northstar is kind of pointless.

    Consumer-level comparisons like this all suffer from some inherent problems but Vital and Bike do a reasonable job of eliminating the variables they can. MTBR does a solid job with the bike light rundown, though.

    MTBR's larger issue is what they want to be, and when push comes to shove, it always seems to go in favor of being a local forum with an income stream and some industry perks. It didn't feel that way 10 years ago, but as participation has dropped in nearly all the forums but NorCal, it's very obvious now.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal-Rider View Post
    Frame size?
    All mediums.
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    I bet these guys represent the average mt biker more than the reviews from Vital, Bike and Pink Bike. It might be interesting to hear what a recreational rider has to say about these bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I bet these guys represent the average mt biker more than the reviews from Vital, Bike and Pink Bike. It might be interesting to hear what a recreational rider has to say about these bikes.
    This is exactly what I feel as well. Brandon T from Vital as well as Mike K from Pinkbike are high level riders that are really skilled and can ride any bike regardless of travel better than 95% of the rest of the mountain biking population. One of the intriguing aspects of these aggressive long travel bikes being released is how they help an average weekend warrior improve and build confidence whille masking most mistakes without the same consequences. I know I'd love to ride every day of my life and not have the fear of injury or failure but I need technology to help me progress.

  47. #147
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    Not to discount anyone's concerns, but the typical GoPro video does an amazing job of flattening everything out. And then with big wheels and suspension just rolling over everything with ease, it looks even less dramatic.

    But yeah, these bikes can do much more than what is on the video, no doubt.

  48. #148
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    More vids...
    Last edited by bob-o; 10-17-2017 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Structure View Post
    2018 Scott Genius. 150x150 29er . Should be one of the lightest on the list while still slaying DH.


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    https://youtu.be/fATro001LRw

    Not to mention the spark 710+ got trail bike of the year from MBR. Which the new genius frame is placed on. The quote was that it would put most EnDuro bikes to shame.

    Plus on the new Genius you can switch from 27+ tires 29 tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    So now that you've decided to defend yourself for the comments you made as well as agreeing with other people's convoluted opinions based on what ???? a 90 second video clip that was released to judge the ability of the riders involved as well as trails previewed not being worthy of testing these bikes involved which I'm sure you've never ridden ?

    So actually who is the uneducated person ? I've ridden Braile DH, Downieville and parts of Tahoe that these bikes were tested on and I can tell you that your off base as the terrain is plenty challenging.

    I could care less about your riding level and what class you may race or how skilled or unskilled you may be as a rider. I'm instead concerned with helping others who love and enjoy riding mountain bikes no matter what skill level and to not discourage good information and the time that's been put into helping anyone who might care to know about this genre of bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    When you show a 90 second clip saying here is a teaser of us testing the bikes and we are not supposed to judge based off that? Come the F on with that holier than though BS. You KNOW you thought the same thing seeing as how above all others you act I know you did....please dont lie to yourself anymore. That or these are your riding buddies in the video and are backing them up because it is your duty as a friend.... which I get. Im not backing down from anything I said, I still hold true to the statement that the VIDEO does not show the bikes being put through their paces period! People called the tester on it and for whatever reason you are backing the tester side and I am on the other side. We can agree to disagree on who is the most educated on the the trails they chose to test on.......BUT I will not back down from saying that the VIDEO was shown did not show the level of testing these bike were built to be marketed towards.

    "If" you are truly concerned about helping people know about this gene of bikes you would have come on and quoted the OP post about where they had said they tested them and helped by backing up that they are "plenty challenging" and will test the bikes and not to base it off that one video. Instead....nope you came on and talked shit calling people names and acting like you were above doing what you just did. I could care less about your motives that you tell yourself about. However mine have CLEAR AS DAY since my first post, calling into question the ways thebikes are being tested for this shootout based off the information that was presented to me and the others on this board that are "uneducated" on the trails these bikes were being tested on.
    Superbly said!!! I'm 100% with this guy!

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Rough terrain ability is pretty dramatic on some of these bikes, specially the Marin and Wreckoning.

    A cool observation though is "what's the downside?". That often rings in my head as I do big climbs on these bikes and don't have to compromise much. The descending, cornering and 'error handling' of these bikes though are very rewarding.

    Some weights:

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    All bikes have Eagle 1x12 and carbon wheels. Minions on the Intense and Santa Cruz and Michelins AM's on the Wreck.
    Looks like the Genius tuned beats all those at 25.79 lbs.
    It sure makes those bikes look like they're very very heavy. I guess you will need to add that to your test.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    https://youtu.be/fATro001LRw

    Not to mention the spark 710+ got trail bike of the year from MBR. Which the new genius frame is placed on. The quote was that it would put most EnDuro bikes to shame.

    Plus on the new Genius you can switch from 27+ tires 29 tires.
    Those are a joke(for this shootout). They come with proprietary XC shocks with "twin lockout" systems (fork and rear shock). What the hell is that doing on a trail/AM bike? As an example, it appears the shocks lack the low-speed "open mode" adjustment of factory fox shocks, which means you get "open blowing through travel"-mode, jackhammer-trail-mode, and "un-freaking-ridable on anything but pavement"-mode.
    Just being able to tune out a bit of the dive and get more support with something resembling an honest low-speed adjuster is pretty big in my experience, and the more serious AM bikes in this contest have these features, let alone other XC bikes that at least have the open-mode adjust. This bike is the epitome of a bike that is intended to last a max of around 2 seasons, if that, and then totally crap out. Yeah, they are light, because they are built like XC bikes, not AM bikes.

    Those bikes are maybe not a joke if you are willing to live with those sacrifices, but worthy of this test? Not even close IMO.
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    Looks like the Genius tuned beats all those at 25.79 lbs.
    It sure makes those bikes look like they're very very heavy. I guess you will need to add that to your test.
    spoken like a true XC guy. I don't know a single successful enduro racer (basically who these bikes are marketed for whether you race or not) that cares about weight. To be honest I'd be terrified to ride a 25lb long travel bike as hard as I do. There are only so many lightweight options out there, to get the bike that light you're making serious compromises in the frame (IMO of course). 30lb is about perfect for me with current technology. I can't fathom not breaking that scott within a couple of months.
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  54. #154
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    Tuned in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Those are a joke(for this shootout). They come with proprietary XC shocks with "twin lockout" systems (fork and rear shock). What the hell is that doing on a trail/AM bike? As an example, it appears the shocks lack the low-speed "open mode" adjustment of factory fox shocks, which means you get "open blowing through travel"-mode, jackhammer-trail-mode, and "un-freaking-ridable on anything but pavement"-mode.
    Just being able to tune out a bit of the dive and get more support with something resembling an honest low-speed adjuster is pretty big in my experience, and the more serious AM bikes in this contest have these features, let alone other XC bikes that at least have the open-mode adjust. This bike is the epitome of a bike that is intended to last a max of around 2 seasons, if that, and then totally crap out. Yeah, they are light, because they are built like XC bikes, not AM bikes.

    Those bikes are maybe not a joke if you are willing to live with those sacrifices, but worthy of this test? Not even close IMO.
    Uh oh. Now you've done it. Queue the butthurt.

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  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Marin Wolf Ridge
    Sigh. Don't tell me that ugly bike is going to get #1....

  57. #157
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    Francis, in your testing, has anyone experienced the rear tire hitting the seat tube on the Hightower LT? In that video you showed compressing the suspensions, the HTLT seems like that back tire hits the seat or the seat tube.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Those are a joke(for this shootout). They come with proprietary XC shocks with "twin lockout" systems (fork and rear shock). What the hell is that doing on a trail/AM bike? As an example, it appears the shocks lack the low-speed "open mode" adjustment of factory fox shocks, which means you get "open blowing through travel"-mode, jackhammer-trail-mode, and "un-freaking-ridable on anything but pavement"-mode.
    Just being able to tune out a bit of the dive and get more support with something resembling an honest low-speed adjuster is pretty big in my experience, and the more serious AM bikes in this contest have these features, let alone other XC bikes that at least have the open-mode adjust. This bike is the epitome of a bike that is intended to last a max of around 2 seasons, if that, and then totally crap out. Yeah, they are light, because they are built like XC bikes, not AM bikes.

    Those bikes are maybe not a joke if you are willing to live with those sacrifices, but worthy of this test? Not even close IMO.
    Ok, then why be afraid of including them in the mix? Scott would not be afraid to send one.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    spoken like a true XC guy. I don't know a single successful enduro racer (basically who these bikes are marketed for whether you race or not) that cares about weight. To be honest I'd be terrified to ride a 25lb long travel bike as hard as I do. There are only so many lightweight options out there, to get the bike that light you're making serious compromises in the frame (IMO of course). 30lb is about perfect for me with current technology. I can't fathom not breaking that scott within a couple of months.
    And If your wrong? What then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    Ok, then why be afraid of including them in the mix? Scott would not be afraid to send one.
    So, you joined this site two weeks ago and all your posts are about the Scott Spark. Weird.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    Ok, then why be afraid of including them in the mix? Scott would not be afraid to send one.
    You mean by going back in time?
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Francis, in your testing, has anyone experienced the rear tire hitting the seat tube on the Hightower LT? In that video you showed compressing the suspensions, the HTLT seems like that back tire hits the seat or the seat tube.
    No hitting the seat tube. There is about 1mm of clearance. The is a Maxxis Minion DHR 2.4. A taller tire will hit. Or mud will cause rubbing at full compression.

    The HTLT chainstays were lengthened 3mm for this reason.

    One thing happening to me though is my tire has hit the rear of the seat. Two things make this possible, I have the post dropped all the way and the seat dropped all the way. The seat too was slid quite a ways back to give it offset (not my normal setup). At full compression, tire can hit. There's a bit of butt buzzing too as the tire can get higher than the seat!

    Not a big deal for me though since this is a rare configuration. What makes it possible on the HTLT is the seat tube is straight and the dropper post can be slammed all the way. This makes it possible for me to run a 170mm dropper post (5'7", 30 inseam) and I absolutely love it.

    Here's the bike in 160mm fork mod version. Soo good!Long travel 29er shootout-img_0651.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    So, you joined this site two weeks ago and all your posts are about the Scott Spark. Weird.
    So your point being?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    May be overthinking this. That is trail is steeper than it looks and that is a single afternoon we had a video person. This is not a movie and the teaser video is just some clips in appreciation of the feedback here.

    Like I said, been riding the bikes for two months on average on good mix of terrain.

    Point taken though and will draw out the rough terrain capabilities of these bikes.

    fc
    Look forward to seeing the rough footage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    So your point being?
    Was I not clear? You're a shill for Scott; either an employee or a retailer.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Was I not clear? You're a shill for Scott; either an employee or a retailer.
    Let me guess you're not biased at all?. I've never met One biker that isn't. I can at least admitt my bias. Which shows that I'm more honest than you!

    You obviously didn't read any of my posts because I also sat that the Canyon Spectre was a good bike.
    Last edited by Rugerfan777; 09-18-2017 at 08:33 PM.

  67. #167
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    Uh, OK. Your logic is so convoluted I'm having a tough time tracking. I suppose the obvious difference is that I'm a consumer, which means I've spent my own money to develop any bias and I'm not driving other users to something that profits me personally.

    That's otherwise known as being ethical. Look it up sometime.
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Uh, OK. Your logic is so convoluted I'm having a tough time tracking. I suppose the obvious difference is that I'm a consumer, which means I've spent my own money to develop any bias and I'm not driving other users to something that profits me personally.

    That's otherwise known as being ethical. Look it up sometime.
    Dude, i'm just a regular guy that bought a Scott Spark. I almost went with the canyon Spectre instead which is also a kick ass bike but decided on the Scott because of the climbing ability and I like the colors better.

    I'm also in avid gun advocate. I've been seeing morons argue about the AK versus AR 15 for 20+ years. Some guys are so biased they won't even admit the other gun is good too. I'm not one of those dudes, they both have their strengths and weaknesses depending on what they're their used for and type of terrain being used in. Stop trying to paint me as some kind of fanatic towards one type or brand or not, but yes I bought the Scott that doesn't mean I can't see that other bikes are good too.

    While a trail bike Will never be the king of downhill some of them may surprise you that they're able to keep up quite well. Of course a lot of this depends on how experience The rider is too.

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    It just seems to me like this guy enjoys his Scott Spark and nothing more. He probably joined the forums and has only posted about the bike he chose and enjoys so he can hype it as an excellent bike. Regardless of his intentions the list of bikes that were chosen is pretty much finalized.

    I know I used some inappropriate comments towards a few members the other day and I apologize for that. I look forward to plenty of good comments regarding the tests.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    While a trail bike Will never be the king of downhill some of them may surprise you that they're able to keep up quite well. Of course a lot of this depends on how experience The rider is too.
    Nothing against the spark but this thread is about 150mm and up. The spark is XC bike with 4lbs carbon frame and I would just suggest a bit of a warning/caution to you about it. I'm not attempting to flame you, but do not attempt DH/enduro stuff on that bike. Be careful out there.

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Nothing against the spark but this thread is about 150mm and up. The spark is XC bike with 4lbs carbon frame and I would just suggest a bit of a warning/caution to you about it. I'm not attempting to flame you, but do not attempt DH/enduro stuff on that bike. Be careful out there.
    In his defense, the bike he originally posted about was the Genius, which is a 150mm bike.

    That said, in this segment, weight wouldn't be anywhere near my top concern.

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  72. #172
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    2 pages in, no content on the actual shootout or bikes, and members are already apologizing to each other...love me some mtbr!
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    In his defense, the bike he originally posted about was the Genius, which is a 150mm bike.

    That said, in this segment, weight wouldn't be anywhere near my top concern.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    Your correct, Genius is 150mm, somehow it got turned into Hate for the Scott Spark.

  74. #174
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    Ok add another, Orange Stage 6 not much info about these

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    Interested to see how this shootout turns out. Honestly as others have stated mtbr isn't the source for reviews, industry news, etc. I wonder how this shoot out will compare to other sites. The lack of footage is concerning but we'll see how it turns out.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

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    Any chance at adding the 2018 Rocky Mountain Instinct BC edition?
    Looks like its a competitor.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobyland View Post
    Any chance at adding the 2018 Rocky Mountain Instinct BC edition?
    Looks like its a competitor.
    I'll be demoing the BC edition in Whistler in a few weeks and I'll post my thoughts. No Ride 9 for the BC but the numbers look nice. Not overly aggressive with a 65.9 HA but should be a well rounded choice.
    Last edited by skinnybex; 09-20-2017 at 03:20 PM.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I'll be demoing the BC edition in Whistler in a few weeks and I'll post my thoughts. No Ride 9 for the BC but the numbers look nice. Not overly aggressive with a 66.9 HA but should be a well rounded choice.
    In a few weeks?! Didn't they just get like 10" of snow?
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    2 pages in, no content on the actual shootout or bikes, and members are already apologizing to each other...love me some mtbr!
    I think they're redoing the whole thing after the "teaser" showed them riding groomed bike path I kid I kid... but maybe they're finding some better trails to actually test them on. That teaser was a little embarrassing...
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    In a few weeks?! Didn't they just get like 10" of snow?
    I'm there September 29 thru October 9th to be exact. I'll be on the first lift up to TOTW Saturday morning. It was still closed when I was ther in July.

    They've had plenty of rain but temps are still in the 50's at night. The bike park officially closes October 9th. Plenty to ride and Garbo Zone will surely be open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I'm there September 29 thru October 9th to be exact. I'll be on the first lift up to TOTW Saturday morning. It was still closed when I was ther in July.

    They've had plenty of rain but temps are still in the 50's at night. The bike park officially closes October 9th. Plenty to ride and Garbo Zone will surely be open.
    Thats why you need a bike park in the Redwood forests. It never snows here really.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    Thats why you need a bike park in the Redwood forests. It never snows here really.
    Where are you located ? NorCal ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Rough terrain ability is pretty dramatic on some of these bikes, specially the Marin and Wreckoning.

    A cool observation though is "what's the downside?". That often rings in my head as I do big climbs on these bikes and don't have to compromise much. The descending, cornering and 'error handling' of these bikes though are very rewarding.

    Some weights:

    All bikes have Eagle 1x12 and carbon wheels. Minions on the Intense and Santa Cruz and Michelins AM's on the Wreck.
    Are any of these demo's for sale?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    Where are you located ? NorCal ?
    Yes, I live right near Jedediah Smith redwoods State Park. We only have a few trails around here we can ride on one is the little bald Hills which isn't too bad but they're going to be opening more trails soon.

    The Little Bald Hills Trail

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    Sadly, this shootout, which is a great idea to do, is going to get acid thrown all over it. I'm calling it now.

    I'm looking forward to your findings Francis, but others... Who knows.

    Some people will never be happy and wouldn't be impressed if a meteor hit the earth.

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    https://youtu.be/cJ-Gp8YfgoY

    What a second I thought downhill and big jumps no trial bike will handle, just shows you how biased some of you guys are. Evil the following seems to do all these?

    Phil Metz is a great rider but don't use that as an excuse.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    https://youtu.be/cJ-Gp8YfgoY

    What a second I thought downhill and big jumps no trial bike will handle, just shows you how biased some of you guys are. Evil the following seems to do all these?

    Phil Metz is a great rider but don't use that as an excuse.

    If I deciphered your post correctly that doesn't mean anything... A line has been ridden on a cross bike. Should we all ride cross bikes then? No one is saying you can't ride a smooth flow trail on a trail bike. Long travel 29'ers ARE trail bikes. You can even ride real DH trails (not that flow stuff) on a 130mm bike.. You just aren't going to do it as fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    https://youtu.be/cJ-Gp8YfgoY

    What a second I thought downhill and big jumps no trial bike will handle, just shows you how biased some of you guys are. Evil the following seems to do all these?

    Phil Metz is a great rider but don't use that as an excuse.
    This is on a Calling (130mm rear travel, 27.5).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Good way to get your neck broke is ride a bike like that on a trail like that. It can be done but at what cost.

    I like how Francis has been flirting the question around, what is the downside of a 29x150 travel bike? You'll be prepared for anything that is for sure. I don't see a downside in this, better to have more than less and get injured trying to ride what you shouldn't.

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    The teaser video could have been produced in a way that did not provoke distrust in the upcoming review. Let me draw your attention to this video that accompanied a review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-gaGPXvsgo

    You could leverage some of the same criticisms toward that review. You don't need a long travel 29er to ride those trails. The actual reviewer could be a mediocre rider. Those reservations don't come up because the presentation is good.

    Take the best rider in FC's teaser who can loft it with a little bit of style. Get rid of the less skilled riders, add better angles, some slo-mo, drone shots, and some color grading and better sound. The interpretation and trust in the review would change dramatically.

    Note that I did not say change the content or reviewers in any way.
    The heated arguments in this thread are a result of changing standards in mtb journalism. Video is surpassing written articles in impact. Naturally, the riding we see in video affects our interpretation of a mtb review.

    I still look forward to the long travel 29er review because it may have good insights, but I would suggest a more selective video presentation in the future because obviously, it's important!

    In fact, FC, contact me if you would like some help. I've got shooting / editing skills that could help, and I think I'm local to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post

    I like how Francis has been flirting the question around, what is the downside of a 29x150 travel bike? You'll be prepared for anything that is for sure. I don't see a downside in this, better to have more than less and get injured trying to ride what you shouldn't.
    I found no big downside riding long travel niner demos, the only thing i wanted was the extra squish/confidence of something like a 2.6 tire. These bikes have come a long way since the wagon wheel intro. They descend and roll better, they climb better and they are way more playful. I'm 5'10 and on that M/L line, have found that medium is the ticket to keeping the maneuverability, no loss in high speed stability at least at the pace I ride.

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    Not everyone likes riding a couch on trails that are too tame for a big travel bike, some enjoy the feeling of having to be the pilot, in full control going down the trail, not sitting on some Caddy feeling sled that doesn't require the concentration or effort a shorter travel bike would. But I guess in this day and age where everyone wants everything easier, it makes sense for so many to want to be over biked like that instead of biked correctly or maybe even slightly under biked

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    I like how Francis has been flirting the question around, what is the downside of a 29x150 travel bike? You'll be prepared for anything that is for sure. I don't see a downside in this, better to have more than less and get injured trying to ride what you shouldn't.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not everyone likes riding a couch on trails that are too tame for a big travel bike, some enjoy the feeling of having to be the pilot, in full control going down the trail, not sitting on some Caddy feeling sled that doesn't require the concentration or effort a shorter travel bike would. But I guess in this day and age where everyone wants everything easier, it makes sense for so many to want to be over biked like that instead of biked correctly or maybe even slightly under biked
    While that may be true for some people, I think you're giving the bike too much credit. As a dyed in the wool XC guy, I've recently been spending time on a bike featured in this test.

    I've been pleasantly surprised at how well it pedals. Good suspension designs and, an eye opener for me, low speed compression damping, have really made these bigger bikes very pedal friendly. I don't feel like I'm giving up much to myy XC bike.

    I am still riding the bike. I don't just get to sit there and float over everything. What I am riding over though I am doing with more confidence and more aggressively. I can pop over rocks, take bigger drops than I ever dared to and really trust the bike over sketchy sections. I'm not less of a biker because I'm on more than 100mm of travel, I also don't feel like I didn't get as good of a ride in because I had more travel. If anything, I feel like I could do more because I'm not so beat.


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    Silentfoe, which bike are you on?
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    While that may be true for some people, I think you're giving the bike too much credit. As a dyed in the wool XC guy, I've recently been spending time on a bike featured in this test.

    I've been pleasantly surprised at how well it pedals. Good suspension designs and, an eye opener for me, low speed compression damping, have really made these bigger bikes very pedal friendly. I don't feel like I'm giving up much to myy XC bike.

    I am still riding the bike. I don't just get to sit there and float over everything. What I am riding over though I am doing with more confidence and more aggressively. I can pop over rocks, take bigger drops than I ever dared to and really trust the bike over sketchy sections. I'm not less of a biker because I'm on more than 100mm of travel, I also don't feel like I didn't get as good of a ride in because I had more travel. If anything, I feel like I could do more because I'm not so beat.
    Well said.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Silentfoe, which bike are you on?
    I really don't want to say because I don't want to start a "I have X bike and it's the best ever" segway in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not everyone likes riding a couch on trails that are too tame for a big travel bike, some enjoy the feeling of having to be the pilot, in full control going down the trail, not sitting on some Caddy feeling sled that doesn't require the concentration or effort a shorter travel bike would. But I guess in this day and age where everyone wants everything easier, it makes sense for so many to want to be over biked like that instead of biked correctly or maybe even slightly under biked
    LOL. This is a delusional post. If you're ever in colorado we should go for a ride and I think I could open your eyes to long travel bikes and what they're meant for. I assure you it wouldn't be a "lazy" ride and you'll be using all of your concentration.
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  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    LOL. This is a delusional post. If you're ever in colorado we should go for a ride and I think I could open your eyes to long travel bikes and what they're meant for. I assure you it wouldn't be a "lazy" ride and you'll be using all of your concentration.
    Let's be honest. On most Front Range trails, with a couple rare exceptions, if you're using 150mm of travel regularly, you are taking lines way, way different than what most people ride, or you are running 40% sag and blowing through your already reduced available travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Let's be honest. On most Front Range trails, with a couple rare exceptions, if you're using 150mm of travel regularly, you are taking lines way, way different than what most people ride, or you are running 40% sag and blowing through your already reduced available travel.

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    This I will beg to differ with. Speed plays a large account into what you say here. Can I ride a bunch of things on my hardtail quick on the front range..... yes. However can I ride the same trails on the 160mm bike a whole lot quicker.. yep. If you are ever in the Springs riding hit me up, we can go go play on a few fun trails that would make riders enjoy these amounts of suspension. That the the best part of out here, you can go from mild to wild on the same trail just by letting go of the binders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not everyone likes riding a couch on trails that are too tame for a big travel bike, some enjoy the feeling of having to be the pilot, in full control going down the trail, not sitting on some Caddy feeling sled that doesn't require the concentration or effort a shorter travel bike would. But I guess in this day and age where everyone wants everything easier, it makes sense for so many to want to be over biked like that instead of biked correctly or maybe even slightly under biked
    I found it made the ride more fun actually, knowing the capabilities definitely gives you a nice level of confidence on the trail. One less excuse heh

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