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  1. #1
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    Good job! Long Travel 29" forks- Possible White Brothers' Salvation?

    Hello

    What features would you like to see in long travel 29" forks? They might not be exact copies of 26" forks' features they may offer more tuning possibilities, etc.
    I sent a few e-mails to White Brothers Cycling and they replied as follows:

    "
    Dear White Brothers

    I wrote several suggestions concerning the 29" forks, I would be grateful if you forwarded this message to both your bosses and technicians.
    I enclosed e-mails from Turner, Ventana, Niner and Santa Cruz at the bottom. I enclosed as well links for a website with first DH 29" bicycle with something like your remade dual-crown fork!

    Presenting Fork sketches or picture to the Frame builders and target Riders.

    As far as riders are concerned you might present it here in "Manufacturers 29 News" on Mtbr
    of course if you approve stuff like this. Some manufacturers did so, gathered feedback and benefited quite much.
    Supplying Outlines
    Even in alpha testing stage might be very favorable. You could acquire attention and boost imagination of different style riders. They know what lacks in their forks, it may encourage a number of them to write down the feature list plus draw a draft in CAD to depict some new construction solutions that they believe would ameliorate the riding characteristics. If there is a nuance that might cause trouble (construction compatibility with certain handlebars, stems, frames) it can be nipped in the bud.

    Furthermore such pre-premier draft presentation allows you to correct issues and determine what the riders are really dreaming of, and that, in turn, ensures sales prosperity and, due to lack of any 29" forks from 130mm onwards, frame builders fidelity in the target market. Designing a variety of frames based on your forks ,frame manufacturers will be accustomed to your products and when other fork alternatives appear, the creators of which, will have to compete on already saturated market. Judging from the e-mails, which I received from frame producers, if there is the fork, there is a appropriate frame, tire ( the widest for now 2,55") and other „apparel" round the corner. Generally you could contribute to boosting 29" development and filling the niche.

    The riders could have the opportunity to partly participate in fork building and know what it roughly is capable of, before it is released.
    Your technicians for instance could draw a sketch of the fork and deliver it to the frame builders (with or without recommendation for target application) and then they reply with designed frame and other requirements to you. They would have an option either choose you as fork supplier or wait in patience for other fork manufacturer to join 29" market.
    There would be no time interval, when frame manufacturers start designing whilst certain fork is being designed, the fork would come out (and be sold) on the bike on the release day of both. No need to wait in warehouse for them to come up with a suitable frame.

    Consult some for instance Intense, Turner, Ventana, Specialized sites. Intense after releasing 5.5 29" with 5,75" rear travel, it is presumed that they are in need for building 6.6, 29" M3 29" Uzii 29" and other in 29" versions. Tight cooperation is welcomed.
    Intense 5.5 29" with your Fluid 130mm http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=2647844
    Lenz Behemoth with 130mm Lance goes big (on the Behemoth...)- Mtbr.com

    I had a vena for creation and I invented several 29" forks. I based it on gaining some experience in MTB World from a consumer point of view. What are your views on implementing varied hue and colors of your products any my forks' ideas?
    For instance it can match with red aggressive Freeride Bike or blue with moderate feminine XC bicycle or toned pastel green for light Trail/ light AM.
    The suspension forks:

    - XC Lighter 29" Magic 80 and 100 The weight is a crucial thing. Multitude of colors and hues. Perhaps 28-30mm stanchions?

    There is a substantial number of people wishing to ride XC style. They are deterred because of added weight. With light HT frame and fork more riders may switch to 29" and compete on races being heavier but overcoming obstacles with ease and maintaining speed and momentum. Special for-race-only stiff fork version needed.
    Tighter fork stanchions' clearance for leisure trekking& cyclo-cross bicycles up to 1,95" tyre


    - XC; Trail and light AL/Enduro Adjustable length forks similar to Rock Shox Revelation, Pike and Marzocchi Bomber. The weight is also a crucial thing for keeping the whole bike reasonable for all-day journeys, especially when at times you must carry your bicycle owing to steep ascend. Multitude of colors and hues welcome
    Introduce an adjustable 3 axle 29" Fluid version f. ex 100-130, 100-140 and 100-150mm oil-air for hard XC and middle AM purposes.
    It could have intelligent automatic lock-out when the fork „detects" no bumps when on hard-packed surface f.ex asphalt. When falling into a hole and bumping into obstacle it activates and remain active till it receives jolts- cheaper version with lever pop-lock. What is of high importance is to ensure equal efficiency in both extremes 100 and 150 Fork ought to be equally plush, functional and when in 130 it ought to perform exactly as non-adjustable fuid 130mm and this same pertains to 100 and 150mm positions.
    Generally functions existing in some models of Rock Shox, Marzocchi and Fox. 100 for XC and uphill on very rough terrain 130 and DH sections on 150mm. such 100-150 fork could fit numerous bicycles with about 110-150 of rear wheel travel. Versatility. It must be very light. Maybe different price ranges depending on weight and features like Rock Shox offers.
    All in all, such customization 100-150 will satisfy majority of people (and equip many bikes) when riding on road and then roving in the mountainous tracks. Keeping the weight in cutting-edge "premium" version under 2 kg would be an unrivalled success.

    - Enduro- All Mountain 36mm very stiff stanchions forks (Fox uses 36mm)with axle; single crown, common and adjustable, all adjustable coil and air versions. In coil versions the weight does not matter much.
    Adjustable 140-170mm and/or 140-180mm both in coil and air
    Standard forks about 145, 160 and 180mm versions maybe only coil.
    Different colors and hues

    - Freeride Double Crown coil axle; 36 or 40mm stanchions Weight does not matter
    170, 180mm

    Extreme Freeride & moderate Downhill beefy Double Crown axle, 40mm stanchions The heavier the better. Big wheels will let the riders to skim over rocky gardens on slopes and detracting to a lesser extent in comparison with 26".

    Scrutinize this website with 29" DH bike and your remade 29" forks
    http://bcdracing.com/psycho-billy-cadillac/inedible.htm
    and a fork
    http://bcdracing.com/29s/index.html There is a thread concerning this issue on Mtbr.com
    Downhill on 29" wheels now it is reality.- Mtbr.com
    Groove 29" 180mm; 203mm

    - Extreme Downhill Beefy Double Crown axle the heavier the better, 50mm stanchions accepting custom 165mm or wider hub and flange configuration wheels. Accepting 4 inches tires. Examples taken from Motocross for instance Marzocchi.
    http://www.marzocchi.com/Template/li...ito=moto&LN=UK
    Necessary contact with rims' and hubs' builders. This innovative step is indispensable, since standard of 135mm and even 26" DH 150mm hubs and flanges will not stand such abuse of 29"-622mm rims.
    Now there exist bikes with 12,5" of rear travel and following fork would match them perfectly

    Monster Groove 29" in 3 versions:
    230mm; 260mm and over 300mm of travel length. Stanchions function like in a moto-cycle when they come into each other (bushings?) form below unlike other forks where it is from above.
    Perhaps adjustable 280-330mm
    for extreme bike accepting 4 inches tyres. Consult sketches with frame builders. Frames allowing both 29" wheels or front 29" and rear 29", 26" and 24". Rear 24" and front 29" would create substantially short bicycle to let the rider better swerving into corners- controllability. The weight would be over 5 kilograms or more and that's the asset.
    Bike featuring 4 inches tires
    http://www.surlybikes.com/pugsley.html


    Custom-made forks for frame builders .
    An example- Manitou custom for Gary Fisher HI FI Genesis 2.0/3.0 bicycles.
    Perhaps once you will start working on rear suspension as well and maybe WB frames? You would be capable of to releasing your own bicycles. Experiment with hues and colours, sometimes a fork in certain hue may appeal more to someone than original black and white, and that might decide as well whether the fork is sold. Bike manufacturers tend to produce a variety and multiplicity of bicycles to please and attract everyone. Therefore to achieve that they require as many similar in travel forks but differentiated in features and functions, weight, materials and finally the price.
    Specialized is probably testing a 29" with a Fox fork 29" because they offer a 29" XC tire and no bicycle to mount it on. The mistake on the part of Fox (if it is true) is such that they do not reveal the project and those, for whom eventually the fork is designed, cannot comment and express what they need in 29" fork. The frame companies might be thinking about other bikes in 29" (exact copies of 26") but still be limited by the lack of fork. A detailed offer for them would be a wise deed, before their fork suppliers make a move.

    Different necessities.
    It is not just magnifying the fork for 29", perhaps bigger forks need more tuning features or some other polishes can be welcome.
    For instance hardness problem in air-oil forks- the more the fork is pressed due to unevenness the more it gets harder, since the air, like other gases, becomes harder the more it is squeezed. Owing to longer stanchion it could accommodate 4 air chambers, 2 per stanchion. Upper chamber may gradually compress and when reaching some pressure level then squeeze the lower chamber. In similar way you could create less hard forks when working and achieve a level of unmarred travel suppleness like in coil- oil dampers.
    As one can observe big wheel dampers may exceed in efficiency their smaller brethren.

    Wheel sizes
    29ers use rims of 622mm but formerly there were 630 (called 27") 635mm (called 28") and completely obsolete 640mm.
    29.5 - setting a new standard for big wheel bicycles!- Mtbr.com Used as postman bikes 30-40 years ago.
    or an example of funny over-sized wheels, definitely not in need for suspension.
    New big wheeled ride...- Mtbr.com
    In the future in 29er movement those rims' sizes might be revived and make much fuss, will it be possible in future to design a fork with adjustable clearance for rim sizes from 622 to 635? Of course taking into account the tire height for each, ( fo.ex 2 to 2.5 and 3-4 DH) for each size. It is unlikely to turn up, but just be aware of their existence.

    What are WB plans for future?
    Perhaps Rear shocks' Design both oil-air and titanium coil, from 70 up to 330mm travel when mounted. Frame design&production in distant future? That business move would render you independent and free. You could then patent your own rear suspension solutions on your frames.

    Summarizing you will see whether such agenda is feasible, however if your goals are by far contrary, I may thank you for reading my ideas and I practiced my English writing at the same time. Just for sheer curiosity -after discussing- ask your technicians to reply whether my suggestions are accurate. I wrote it inspired by altruism and with desire to mark and solidify 29" parts' presence on the market.

    Attached messages from frame builders:

    from Niner

    Our RIP 9 full suspension frame has 4.5 inches (115mm) of rear travel, which is as much or more travel then you will get out of any production 29er now available. It works very well with the WB Fluid 130 or Maverick DUC 32 for a do-all trail bike. We started out by designing our suspension for 6" of travel and downsized from there to match up with the current 29er forks on the market. When the appropriate fork comes along, we'll be ready.

    We will use our own suspension design, not license something from a third party.

    We are very familiar with the Behemoth and I have spent time on one myself. As Lance mentioned when he tested it, the rest of the parts, like the fork, are just not there yet for a true FR/DH 29er. However, there is nothing the Behemoth is capable of that a similarly equipped RIP 9 could not do.

    We do make hard tail frames in Reynold 853 steel and Easton Scandium as well as the 7000 series aluminum. We have to plans at this time to build a FS Ti frame. On a FS frame you want the "give" to come from the suspension design, not the material.

    Ryan
    Niner Bikes

    The fork manufactures are going to be coming out with longer travel forks in the next 1-2 years. There is a huge upfront cost to cast the new magnesium lowers. ($100,000) not counting R& D time. In the future all fork manufactures will have plenty of 29er offerings as the market gets larger.

    Chris
    Niner Bikes
    www.ninerbikes.com


    From David turner

    [....]
    The 29 market is so small right now that fork makers are very cautious about building more expensive 29r forks. This statement is backed up by Rock Shox adding the Tora to the 29r market, not a Pike or Revelation which are more expensive products. White Brothers does build the 130, I don't believe it is adjustable on the trail. Please don't forget Maverick, they make a fork that is 29r compatable as is customizing the Cannondale Lefty.

    You can read all about those options as Mike Curiak did an extensive test of all the 29r forks on the market, do a search on MTBR 29 forum.


    All our frames are alu. Titanium is heavier and more flexible, so it seems to be good for those that love to look at it.


    No I do not plan on making all models in 29. With no large fork makers making ANYTHING longer than 120mm in travel for 2008 the market will not be going up in travel at a very fast pace, so no FR and DH stuff from the big makers. Shoot with only 80-120 that means that All Mountain will not even be a possibility. As for the other end of the spectrum which is XC racing, a 26 wheeled bike can be much lighter and as you know by watching World Cup XC, all those riders care about is weight as many still race hardtails with very stiff settings on their forks. So I think that in the years to come most 29r bikes will be trail bikes, and hopefully a big fork maker will make a 140 travel as I have asked each one of them recently. But that will not happen in 2008 that I know of, and I have asked that too.


    My frames function the same as ICT, as a former ICT licensee I know that the performance we are getting now is no different kilometer after kilometer in the dirt. VPP functions like a high pivot bike so it locks out more and more as one shifts into a smaller ring. They exhibit the same traits as a raised pivot while brakes are applied as well.


    I did see a picture of an Intense 5.5 29r. The only fork available with travel anywhere close is the White Bros 130 as you have pointed out. Manitou has a Minute 120 for 29 wheels that will be out later this year as a 2008 model. But 120 is a long way from a Nixon 140! Still no All Mountain.


    I really don't know what you are looking for? What do you want from a 29r? Do you have a 29r now? What don't you like about it?


    David Turner

    For Ventan with reply form them.

    - Do you intend to build a frame with 130mm (or more) travel equipped with White Brothers fluid 130mm (or more) 29" fork?
    Perhaps equipped with custom fork?

    [SPG] We already do...we have two models right now in El Capitan and El Rey that can be upgraded to 5" of rear travel. And when the forks catch up, I will indeed build frames to go with them. Looks like in 2008 Fox and Manitou are planning on throwing their hats into the 29er ring and I will be right there with a frame to match when they do. The fork selections at 130mm are White Brothers, and let me see...hmmm...oh, yes, and White Brothers (I don't count the detuned 110mm Maverick.) So I can't wait for more forks.


    This same pertains to DH/FR 29" bike with custom fork

    [SPG] Same thing, once we have forks to build around it becomes much easier to design longer travel frames. I do think there are some limitations in big travel with the big wheels which might open up some 69 combinations but we gotta have some forks first.

    - Will you apply such (similar) technology as: VPP intense or ITC Ellsworth?

    [SPG] If the design requires it then yes, but I haven't seen an absolute need yet so I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. Most of those patented designs make light of their good points through diligent marketing while down playing inherent limitations at the same time. Every bike design has compromises and usually if you are screaming really loud that your this-and-that is the best then you are probably overlooking something...that is what I like to focus on in my designs, don't overlook anything, make minimal compromises, and try to get the best overall package out of the final design.

    I shall definitely purchase one when (if) such is constructed.
    For comparison I enclose a link for WB fork 130mm test together with Behemoth Lenz frame also with 130 travel. Tested by world leader FR & DH rider.
    Lance goes big (on the Behemoth...)- Mtbr.com

    [SPG] El Capitan with 5" rocker will hold its own quite well against the Behemoth. And we have them in stock right now. And since we build everything in house, if you want one with custom geometry we can do that as well.

    -Do you use other materials for frames f.ex. Magnezium-Titanium with carbon fiber parts or pure titanium?

    [SPG] Mostly aluminum, some steel, and a small bit of titanium where it makes sense. I have considered magnesium for a few bits in the past but the environmental issues and the fire hazzard in working with it for the savings of a couple of grams isn't worth the risk to me. Did some carbon parts way back when (1992 or so), but carbon is not the best material to use in limited production with custom sizing so we probably won't be doing any of that any time soon.

    Santa Cruz

    Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz.
    We have no current plans to make or offer a 29" wheeled model anytime in the
    near future, sorry.
    We currently have our hands very full keeping up with current 26" model
    demands and other new projects currently in the pipeline.
    While it would be a fun side project, adding a 29er to the mix at this time
    is just not possible.

    Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz, and let me know if you have any
    other questions.

    Scott Turner
    Santa Cruz Bicycles
    Santa Cruz, California
    scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    www.santacruzbicycles.com

    2 Responses from White Brothers:

    Thank you very much for your email. 29” forks represent the main part of our product line, so they are an important focus for us. We have always been at the forefront of design for the 29” market and we plan to keep it that way. Longer travel forks (both single-crown and dual-crown) are in development and adjustable travel forks are also on the horizon. I can’t give you any specific time frame for introduction of new models, but I assure you they are a top priority here.

    Please keep you eyes open for more 29” models from White Brothers.
    and

    Thank you for your input. It is much appreciated. I will read this over and if I have any news for you, I will let you know. You have raised many good points, but it is not possible to reply in much detail right at the moment, other than to say “we’re working on it!”

    Paul Aieta

    VP Sales and Marketing

    Mountain Racing Products


    www.mrpbike.com


    Well now what do you think? What kind of forks (what features and tuning possibiliteis, what adjustable travel range) would you like to see in WB or any other 29" forks? Perhaps fork manufacturers are reading this thread and many benefit from our input.
    Last edited by Davidcopperfield; 01-26-2007 at 10:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    Honestly, your ramblings make my head hurt. It's nice you got such well constructed responses though, and intertesting to read those (whether or not they were intended for public viewing).
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  3. #3
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    I personally am in favor of having Mikesee, with his masssive industry wide cred, be our ambassador in promoting the fork and tire products that we need in the 29er market.

    When I read what you are sending out to the big players in the bicycle industry, I think one word: inappropriate. Trust me, these guys don't need to be told that Fox has a 36mm fork.

    From your profile you state you will have a 29er in the future. A few suggestions: Great, get one or two 29ers. Ride and upgrade them like crazy. Ask lots of questions here.

    In my less than entirely humble opinion the 29er section of the market does not need more reasons to be labeled " a bunch of nutjobs" by industry movers and shakers. We have carried that cross long enough.

    I do respect your passion on this subject. Just not sure if the way you are going about it is going to have a positive impact...
    Last edited by 29erchico; 01-31-2007 at 04:02 PM.

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    I'd suggest removing those phone numbers. Listing them here could cause problems unless you have permission to publicily distribute them.

  5. #5
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    I forgot to remove those numbers when pasting. I wrote those e-mails based on statements' of 29er enthusiasts saying that more forks are needed. Then I thought that those of you, who ride 29 forks might see some necessity for more regulation possibilities or tuning, in the end 29" forks cannot be (I surmise) manufactured in the same way as 26" are. What sort of forks are needed in your opinion? Only big versions of existing forks or alternatively some new solutions and technique?
    No English is like my second language.

  6. #6
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    English is not your first language is it?

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    I am amazed at the time the people spent on responses. Those I did appreciate. Not much was said that we haven't heard them say before though.

    As for displaying the phone numbers. I believe anyone could go on any of there "public" websites and get those phone numbers. Its not like there anyone's personal phone numbers.

  8. #8
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    I'm wondering if the folk at White Brothers know that they are in need of salvation?

  9. #9
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    Calling FOX?

    Quote Originally Posted by 29erchico
    I'm wondering if the folk at White Brothers know that they are in need of salvation?
    Where's FOX in all this? I wonder if they're doing a 29" fork. Why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biking Brazilian
    Where's FOX in all this? I wonder if they're doing a 29" fork. Why not?
    Spoke to a guy from Fox at interbike and the response was not encouraging. It seemed like they want to watch from a distance. If and when they come around it would be nice.

  11. #11
    Cassoulet forever !
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    We need a wider spacing for the hubs, to get a good rigidity for the whells.
    For the rest, big versions of 26" forks will do fine, thank you!
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  12. #12
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    I am pondering whether anyone of you has a clear concept of new 29" fork? Perphaps in CAD visualized or in other similar software or some drawings? Those technically educated have prolific mind. I mean it is much better to think over what we need rather than wait and accept (or not) what they'll invent and offer us. It holds back the market.

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    you may need to take a better look at the dh side of things

    "- Extreme Downhill Beefy Double Crown axle the heavier the better, 50mm stanchions accepting custom 165mm or wider hub and flange configuration wheels. Accepting 4 inches tires. Examples taken from Motocross for instance Marzocchi.
    http://www.marzocchi.com/Template/li...ito=moto&LN=UK
    Necessary contact with rims' and hubs' builders. This innovative step is indispensable, since standard of 135mm and even 26" DH 150mm hubs and flanges will not stand such abuse of 29"-622mm rims.
    Now there exist bikes with 12,5" of rear travel and following fork would match them perfectly

    Monster Groove 29" in 3 versions:
    230mm; 260mm and over 300mm of travel length. Stanchions function like in a moto-cycle when they come into each other (bushings?) form below unlike other forks where it is from above.
    Perhaps adjustable 280-330mm
    for extreme bike accepting 4 inches tyres. Consult sketches with frame builders. Frames allowing both 29" wheels or front 29" and rear 29", 26" and 24". Rear 24" and front 29" would create substantially short bicycle to let the rider better swerving into corners- controllability. The weight would be over 5 kilograms or more and that's the asset.
    Bike featuring 4 inches tires
    http://www.surlybikes.com/pugsley.html "

    DH bikes have moved away from ultra heavy 12" travel suspensions. Do you know how tall the front end would be on a bike with 29" dh tires, and 13" of suspension? And weight is definately NOT an asset.

  14. #14
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    Inverted DH fork or other 26" forks work on 29er?

    Would one of these forks work on a 29er?
    I saw them on ebay a few days ago.

    For that matter would an inverted fork with no brake arch work.

    How about a 2003 Marzocchi shiver DC (Dual Crown) inverted fork See picture.

    It seems to me that the limiting factor on 26" bike forks is tire clearance under the brake arch. Are there other factors?

    Here is some of the descriptions of the silver Stratos fork from the seller on ebay.

    "...This is a super stiff, overbuilt 7" travel Stratos DH fork. It has 35mm stanchions and a 20mm bolt on axle. It is disc only via standard tab style mounts. It has rebound and compression adjustment on the top of the legs. It was used with a headlock system. This fork is the definition of stiff! The break arch is movable as well. I moved the break arch as high as it will go (15.5" from axle center to bottom of arch) This will allow for pretty much what ever tire size you could want to run! The steerer tube is 9 3/4" long so it should fit almost any bike..."
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
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    Cool-blue Rhythm The big deal

    @ Fulton
    The front end will not be higher than in a motocycle, moreover the rear end would equipped with this same suspension about 300mm. For tall -over 190 cm, heavy and strong beefed up men handling such a armour-clad bicycle is an asset. It would be used for more spacious tracks not so tight DH singlepath. Such machine may adequate for extreme drops, rough terrain, slopes rock gardens.
    No no more sprockets, just single and the gear box under TT, mighty chain, 1,5" steerers, 165mm hubs&flanges, over 40 titanium spokes, titanium rims of 60-90mm width. Tires over 4" wide
    This Monster bicycle will not fit and suit most bikers because they are simply too short and feeble. Ask big muscular real men (from a gym) what their views are. I assure you that they are not fond of tiny flexy and unreliable bikes, I mean if somebody weights over 100 kligrams and wants to act as an avalanche.
    I presume it is to be done under 25 kgs and not for midgets. The smallest frame 19" the biggest over 25"
    Last edited by Davidcopperfield; 01-31-2007 at 05:37 AM.

  16. #16
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    A DH bike with 300mm travel? You are high. NO ONE WHO ACTUALLY RIDES DH WANTS A DH BIKE WITH THAT MUCH TRAVEL. I get the sense that you don't know what you're talking about, at all, Copperfield.

    The most popular DH bikes today max out around 250mm of travel. DH racers today are using lightweight all-mountain wheelsets to lower rotating weight. They're using flat bars, lowered crowns and negative rise stems to get their front ends as low as possible with 180-200mm forks. 29er wheels move in the opposite direction of these trends, so to make 29er wheels palatable to the DH race crowd, companies are going to have to sell the benefits of the bigger wheel, not overbuild them so they're bulletproof.

    I weigh over 100kg, and I have NO INTEREST in a DH bike with 4.0 tires, 40 spokes, 60-90mm rims, etc. In fact, I found that I even dislike dual-ply DH tires because they slow my 26er freeride bike down too much. The days of overbuilt DH are long-gone.

    You're making the long-travel 29er freeride/dh thing look like a joke, and not helping the cause...
    Last edited by jbogner; 01-31-2007 at 08:10 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Need you guys be reminded again how the industry works?

    They received those letters, asked themselves "whats this guy smoking?" and then typed up a polite reply.

    Production is mandated by entire market demand, not one guy who wants a 300mm travel fork with 165mm hubs. We here at MTBR are just a drop in the bucket fools! We might think we have all the answers and industry pull on this board, but when it comes down to it, we are a miniscule portion of the market.
    Steel is Real: www.advocatecycles.com
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  18. #18
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    Ummmm, Maverick already offers 6" travel forks for 29ers... they have a simple drop in kit to convert their forks for 29er wheels. Costs $35.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Ummmm, Maverick already offers 6" travel forks for 29ers... they have a simple drop in kit to convert their forks for 29er wheels. Costs $35.
    That simple drop in kit reduces the travel on a DUC 32 to around 113mm. Good luck telling anyone that 113mm is six inches. IIRC the SC32 when converted has about 94mm of travel.

    Or, if you really want travel, run one unconverted with a 29" wheel, ride hard, you will travel over the bars!

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=jbogner]. I get the sense that you don't know what you're talking about, at all, Copperfield.
    QUOTE]

    I agree with this 100%!

  21. #21
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    Cut and Paste from SC Bicycles

    Santa Cruz

    Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz.
    We have no current plans to make or offer a 29" wheeled model anytime in the
    near future, sorry.
    We currently have our hands very full keeping up with current 26" model
    demands and other new projects currently in the pipeline.
    While it would be a fun side project, adding a 29er to the mix at this time
    is just not possible.

    Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz, and let me know if you have any
    other questions.

    Scott Turner
    Santa Cruz Bicycles
    Santa Cruz, California
    scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    www.santacruzbicycles.com


    This is the exact responce I received 2 years ago. I mean word for word

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by speeder3800
    Would one of these forks work on a 29er?
    I saw them on ebay a few days ago.

    For that matter would an inverted fork with no brake arch work.

    How about a 2003 Marzocchi shiver DC (Dual Crown) inverted fork See picture.

    It seems to me that the limiting factor on 26" bike forks is tire clearance under the brake arch. Are there other factors?

    Here is some of the descriptions of the silver Stratos fork from the seller on ebay.

    "...This is a super stiff, overbuilt 7" travel Stratos DH fork. It has 35mm stanchions and a 20mm bolt on axle. It is disc only via standard tab style mounts. It has rebound and compression adjustment on the top of the legs. It was used with a headlock system. This fork is the definition of stiff! The break arch is movable as well. I moved the break arch as high as it will go (15.5" from axle center to bottom of arch) This will allow for pretty much what ever tire size you could want to run! The steerer tube is 9 3/4" long so it should fit almost any bike..."
    You also need to reduce the travel by 30-35mm to prevent the tire from hitting the crown at full compression. Fail to do this and you will break your body.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  23. #23
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    Anything changed in this matter? Any new around 130mm travel forks? Perhaps someone should inform fork manufacturers about the increased demand we would like to push the envelope. and get real FR 29" bicycle with 170mm fork

  24. #24
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    Yes, I'm sure fork makers will note the dramatic increase in demand for a 170mm 29er fork that developed over the past month since the last post in this thread.
    Former New Yorker, now in Fort Collins
    http://www.nycmtb.com

  25. #25
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Anything changed in this matter? Any new around 130mm travel forks? Perhaps someone should inform fork manufacturers about the increased demand we would like to push the envelope. and get real FR 29" bicycle with 170mm fork
    Sure!
    • Showa has decided to re-enter the mtb market with a single model: a 160mm travel dual crown 29er fork.
    • A 29" version of the Marzocchi 66 hit the market last week.
    • White Brothers is making the new DCF 170mm just because you sent them a letter and started this thread a month ago.
    • If you believe any of the above I can set you up with a guy in Nigeria that needs help getting $16million out of the country and will give you half
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  26. #26
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    Mmm, Showa....Drool!

  27. #27
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    Did you see the spy photos of the 170mm travel 36er fork proto? 29ers are dead.
    Former New Yorker, now in Fort Collins
    http://www.nycmtb.com

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbogner
    Did you see the spy photos of the 170mm travel 36er fork proto? 29ers are dead.
    So THAT is what the "36" model name means!
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  29. #29
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    it must be winter

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Sure!
    • I can set you up with a guy in Nigeria that needs help getting $16million out of the country and will give you half
    Shiggy Can you forward this contact info on the down low? Don't want anyone else getting the jump on this one Thanks and I will hook you up once it comes through
    www.nycmtb.com
    .....spreading the love

  31. #31
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    I got an e-mail from White Brothers that they will be releasing an adjustable travel lenght forks for 29 inched platform next year. Has anybody heard more deatils on these?

  32. #32
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    A few months ago.............

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    I got an e-mail from White Brothers that they will be releasing an adjustable travel lenght forks for 29 inched platform next year. Has anybody heard more deatils on these?
    got the same email from WB. No other details

  33. #33
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    ...[*]If you believe any of the above I can set you up with a guy in Nigeria that needs help getting $16million out of the country and will give you half[/list]

    How can I get in on that?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
    2 wheels

  34. #34
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    Now at our disposal are new : Expensive and the lightest German A 29er fork 1111 grams, RST, Manitou, Fox. WE still need real AM forks 140-170mm from Rock Shock (for instance pike 29") and real batch of racey forks like SID 29".
    Any rumours from italian Marzocchi?

  35. #35
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    Dude, seriously! We held a memorial service for you and everything and now you decide to resurface We really thought we'd lost you for good Sadly we were all mistaken

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Now at our disposal are new : Expensive and the lightest German A 29er fork 1111 grams, RST, Manitou, Fox. WE still need real AM forks 140-170mm from Rock Shock (for instance pike 29") and real batch of racey forks like SID 29".
    Any rumours from italian Marzocchi?
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  36. #36
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    Here ya go copperfield. Print this picture and take it to the bathroom for 10 minutes or so.



    IT'S THE RISSE BIGFOOT!!!
    12 FREEKIN INCHES OF TRAVEL!!! for a 26er

    SUNDAY
    SUNDAY SUNDAY

  37. #37
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    It LIVES

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Now at our disposal are new : Expensive and the lightest German A 29er fork 1111 grams, RST, Manitou, Fox. WE still need real AM forks 140-170mm from Rock Shock (for instance pike 29") and real batch of racey forks like SID 29".
    Any rumours from italian Marzocchi?
    A Marz rep, when pressed for details, had this to say:

    "Andate via, strani!"

    Story at 11.

  38. #38
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Ummmm, Maverick already offers 6" travel forks for 29ers... they have a simple drop in kit to convert their forks for 29er wheels. Costs $35.
    Ahh the key is Inverted Forks!

    Copperfield you are way out there and I like that....Keep the brain fire going!

  39. #39
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    Good job!

    NICE...What a bump sucker upper!

    Hey don't "SPOOGE" on the pic!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    Copperfield you are way out there and I like that....Keep the brain fire going!
    More like brain fart . . .

  41. #41
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    I'm thinking about getting the new Marin hybrid 29er...
    http://www.marin.co.uk/marin-2008/bi...php?ModNo=3815
    What do u think of a 29er road bike? What are the pros and cons? cheers

  42. #42
    bcd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Now i?
    i talked to a designer for WB at the show and tried to
    relay that they should sell a travel reducer kit for the
    groove inverted. and also change its rake to 65. not
    that hard then they/WE are covered for a 29 dh fork.
    dish less with correct trail.

    that is why i am on fox 40 with cut arch. i talked to a few
    of them too. they were not tp thrilled about me cutting
    it, but whatever. it works perfect.

  43. #43
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    A Fatback'd Lefty for who life IS a Beach

  44. #44
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    White Brothers salvates us
    Listen up
    We have now 150mm fluid thru-axle. WB has prototyped several long-tavel 29" forks and perhaps soon will start to work on Groove 203mm 29" Keep your fingers crossed.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    White Brothers salvates us
    Listen up
    We have now 150mm fluid thru-axle. WB has prototyped several long-tavel 29" forks and perhaps soon will start to work on Groove 203mm 29" Keep your fingers crossed.
    Let's see... 203mm travel fork and a 29" wheel, damm I am like 30' off the ground. No thanks.

    bb

  46. #46
    bcd
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1umb0y
    Let's see... 203mm travel fork and a 29" wheel, damm I am like 30' off the ground. No thanks.

    bb
    thats overkill, 7'' is all you would ever need with a 29 wheel

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcd
    thats overkill, 7'' is all you would ever need with a 29 wheel
    Yeah, but the big wheels are good for at least 2" of virtual suspension, so a 5" fork is ideal.

  48. #48
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    Let's see wb's site
    http://www.whitebrotherscycling.com/product-bw.php
    they introduced a 110mm TA Magic imv version and removed an air spring fluid 130mm. Does it mean that the latter is somehow discontinued? Yeah I know there is a 135mm coil fluid , yet I prefer to keep the weight down and with air spring it was 1950-1980 with through axle - ideal for lightweight longer travel trail/ hard XC bikes.
    I would like to utilize either a 130mm magic imv version or that widely known fluid 130mm on 5.5 29er.

  49. #49
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Running custom on WB Fluid 135mm or other forks.

    I have gotten an email form WB and they showed me a chart and all Ta forks have 43mm offset and QR have 44mm.
    I will use 135mm fluid which has Axle to crown 535mm on frame 5.5 29er with 71 HTA. Has anyone an idea how much trail will I get?
    Basing on this thread Fork offsets 38-51mm or more and Head Angle issues, let's get it sorted out. does not tell me much as the calculator does not take the A-C lenght into account, it does take only the outcome angle on the ground and I don't know how to determine the angle using the above combination.
    If the trail gets in up 80mm I want to go with 51mm offset TA fluid 135mm and keep the trail in upper 70s at most. I can trade off some high speed stability because that's what I do seldom and get a nimbleness of XC bike.

  50. #50
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    That will be hard to calculate, because the AC is variable based on the sag of your shock. Once these Intense frames are ready for production next year, I am sure you can get better info from their factory.

  51. #51
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    The question Fluid vs IMV damping. A response from White Brothers

    Keep in mind that the IMV does not actually lock the fork out. The
    IMV limits up and down movement while climbing to just a few mm
    because it has high damping rate for low-speed forces. Also, while
    the IMV is a very efficient platform valve, any such valve will reduce
    sensitivity to small bumps to some degree versus a smooth, open
    bath damper without platform valving.

    Finally, the platform effect of the IMV becomes more pronounced
    as travel increases. So for travel of more than 110mm, the fork will
    tend to feel harsh with IMV. That is why the longer travel forks
    have open bath "fluid damping" which is adjusted by air pressure in
    the damper leg. By changing this pressure, the rider can find a
    damping rate that does not permit a lot of bobbing on climbs but is
    still "plush" over bumps of all sizes.

    I would advise matching your front suspension as fully as possible
    to the rear. The F 29 135 cannot be adjusted to different travel by
    the end user, but when the fork is ordered we can upon request
    reset the springs so that travel is 125mm if this is a better match to
    the frame. Later, the fork can be restored to 135mm with the
    purchase of new compression springs if the rider moves it to a bike
    with longer rear travel.

    The market for heavily built inverted forks for 29-inch downhill use
    has not yet emerged except for a few demo or prototype designs,
    but we will continue to follow developments in this area.

  52. #52
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    Bump?

  53. #53
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    My theory on Copperfield is that the keys on his keyboard somehow transmit LSD into his brain as he types, hence the posts.

  54. #54
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    Wink

    WB produced once a dual crown fork- a version of wb 135 coil exclusively for MC. Now we have 150 TA, which could improve much by adding 10mm of travel and dual crown mode. Like Maverick or Specialized D. C. fork. I asked WB to make a DH fork for 29ers, they replied that there is not enough demand for justify the movement. Write emails to them, be kind and who knows, we may get vapourous fork.
    Cheers
    DC

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    WB produced once a dual crown fork- a version of wb 135 coil exclusively for MC.
    Not true.

    Get your facts straight Rafaello.

    MC

  56. #56
    bcd
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    did another talas for a guy. Maybe he will post some pics of it on his ventana

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidweasel999
    My theory on Copperfield is that the keys on his keyboard somehow transmit LSD into his brain as he types, hence the posts.
    so says the mister man with the gazillion grinning multi-coloured smilies in his avatar!

    DC... dude... seriously, relax... there's NO need for that kind of 29er gear, 29x3 inch tires or 12inch 29er forks... wanna know why?

    Because the larger and heavier the wheels get the harder they are to TURN.
    Couple years back a bunch of companies (including no less than intense) were trying all kinds of 24" wheels instead of the 26ers because they wanted beefier tires... instead they ended up going back to skinnier tires on 26" bikes for race bikes. (UCI international racing rules DID play a part in this decision)
    And freeriders started going to 24" wheels WITH the big 2.7's and 3.0" tires... gave them the footprint and the float but the wheels were more easily controlled.

    But they tended to stay away from teh 26x3" tires for quicker riding... why?

    All that mass from the ehavy tires spinning that far away from your axle gets harder and harder to control.
    What you wan tto do is pull back a bit, realize that you don't NEED 12" of suspension, EVER...
    Hands up if any of you ACTUALLY rode one of the super monster T's... as well as a Karpiel armageddon which admittedly only had a wussy stratos 8" fork, noone else? no? Ok then... so speaking as someone who's ACTUALLY ridden a 12" fork on a bicycle... I'll never bother trying it again.
    Speaking as someone who's ridden arguably the heaviest duty frame ever built... I'd never bother with it myself. (extra thanks to DaGumz for letting me ride his army though! LOL)

    These are not mountain bikes, they are not meant for the terrain 99% of riders would ever ride.
    They're meant for huckers, and if you seriously think that the 4 or 5 people on the planet that REALLY USE the 12" frames and forks that're ALREADY out there represent enough of a market for the entire industry to move on... you're wrong. (never mind the fact that none of THEM are asking for 29er equipment)

    Now, taking into account that the damn things're near-useless for regular riding with 26" wheels... how could you possibly assume they'd be MORE controllable because their wheels were HARDER to turn and control?

    This opinion of yours could not have come from any point of experience... because none of your "facts" are correct.
    I hereby formally and cordially ask that you to stop representing yourself as a self-proclaimed "voice of the 29er people", because your ignorance of 12" forks and frames in and of themselves and your insistence that we want them allied with 29" wheels is just plain incorrect.
    And you make us look worse for claiming to be our voice.

    I want to make this clear, I'm NOT asking you not to post, or contribute knowledge, but I AM specifically asking that you stop mass emails to companies and purporting to claim that you're speaking "on the behalf of concerned 29er riders worldwide".

    You are not our voice, and you don't represent us, in the future if you wish to send emails of this sort please address yourself as "a concerned citizen" or "someone who feels this could be useful to 29er riders".

    It's hard enough to get a decently strong 36 hole rim as it is!
    Don't need them thinking they might have to build it to match a 165mm front hub that I'd never buy anyways. (speaking as a CURRENT 29er rider)

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcd
    did another talas for a guy. Maybe he will post some pics of it on his ventana
    Thanks Alex!
    I will as soon as I get the build.
    Fork should arrive today. The build is today/tomorrow.
    I should be riding a night ride Wed and another on Thurs.
    Oh yes, there will be pics.

    here's what they did when the frame came in last week....

  59. #59
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    DC,

    Where do you ride that you need that much travel offered on a 29er platform?
    "If I can't work to make it...I'll rob to take it..."

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Not true.

    Get your facts straight Rafaello.

    MC
    That's what I got from WB when I showed them your picture with that fork.

    @Byknuts 12" of travel on a 29er- don't know, but 203mm for a DH 29er why not? I am not spealong on behalf of 29er riders or whatever, albeit I've read people's commnets expressing desire and eagerness for such rigs for instance on twentynineinches.com No need for you to get upset really. 165mm REAR hubs for a dh 29er is not an overkill, take into account that DH riders trash 150mm 36h 26" rims, 29" is weaker so it needs more hub spacing, doesn't is? 40 spokes would still offer an improvemnt in durability department with wider stance issues caused by 165mm hubs.

  61. #61
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    I would put serious money that if you put your money where your mouth was and actually wanted/paid WB to build such a fork, they wouldn't blink twice to actually go ahead and do it for you. I keep forgetting that 150mm travel is, uhhh, not enough, as well...

  62. #62
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    Good job!

    Here are the pics of the fork, cut.

    They're building it today/tomorrow.
    I'll get some pictures before I get it dirty!!!

    Can't wait to ride it!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  63. #63
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    keep seeing those fox forks getting shaved...

    and I wanted to know what's being used to re-seal the bare metal?

    correct me if I'm wrong, but that's magnesium, and it's particularly vulnerable to corrosion from environmental factors, moreso than most metals.... considering that there's less of the material now, and it's in the one spot that guarantees contamination form water and minerals in the soil...


    easton went to great lengths to find the sealers for their magnesium stems and from my (admittedly fuzzy) memory they had problems with the first run or two of their MG60 downhill stems, and we've all seen corrosion bubbles under a fork's paint where the paint's been scratched or chipped off...
    Is the magnesium getting clearcoated or something that we can't see?
    I was thinking of doing a shave (anna haircut...two bits!) job on something beefy but then I realized that I don't know whether regular paint would be enough to re-seal the mag...

  64. #64
    bcd
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    You are bike nuts! HAHAHA



    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts
    and I wanted to know what's being used to re-seal the bare metal?

    correct me if I'm wrong, but that's magnesium, and it's particularly vulnerable to corrosion from environmental factors, moreso than most metals.... considering that there's less of the material now, and it's in the one spot that guarantees contamination form water and minerals in the soil...


    easton went to great lengths to find the sealers for their magnesium stems and from my (admittedly fuzzy) memory they had problems with the first run or two of their MG60 downhill stems, and we've all seen corrosion bubbles under a fork's paint where the paint's been scratched or chipped off...
    Is the magnesium getting clearcoated or something that we can't see?
    I was thinking of doing a shave (anna haircut...two bits!) job on something beefy but then I realized that I don't know whether regular paint would be enough to re-seal the mag...

  65. #65
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    What was the resulting travel from the latest shave? TALAS still operable?


  66. #66
    bcd
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    What was the resulting travel from the latest shave? TALAS still operable?
    5'' and the travel adj still works fine.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcd
    You are bike nuts! HAHAHA
    i know... hence the name...
    I chose not to call myself
    "byknutwho'sanaengineeringgradwhoremembershisgrade 11chemistryclass" because it's too long...

    how is that an answer to the question?
    is the mag painted over, have you done anything to it to try and stabilize it and prevent corrosion?
    it's an honest question... don't take it as criticism, I'm assuming anyone with knowledge of the material would go to great lengths to keep it from corroding... those guys who made the mag frames in the late 90's had HUGE problems with it.

    I just noticed that all the shaved arches I've seen are still bare metal and if they are magnesium, for me, that'd be something I'd want to look at.

    Are you implying I'm nuts for asking?

  68. #68
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    BCD as the one who actually has ridden and raced a DH 29er, would you like to contribute f. ex. cooperate with fork manufacturer - f. ex. WB? They want to be ahead in the suspension lenght. 29er DH fork is not an easy design. It must be light not 5 kgs. It must have some offset- how much trail do we want to end up with?
    What features would like to see in 29er Grooves 180 and 203mm of travel?

  69. #69
    bcd
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts
    i know... hence the name...
    I chose not to call myself
    "byknutwho'sanaengineeringgradwhoremembershisgrade 11chemistryclass" because it's too long...


    Are you implying I'm nuts for asking?
    no just nuts for caring.

    whats funny is this fork will be long gone by the time any destructive corosion
    happens. this thing will be trash and in a heep.

    people always asked me about UV on raw carbon and IF IF IF. who cares.

    you are right BTW. it will corrode and i put nothing on it to prevent that.

  70. #70
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    Thats about the funniest avatar Ive seen yet. Nice one eokerholm!

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcd
    no just nuts for caring.

    whats funny is this fork will be long gone by the time any destructive corosion
    happens. this thing will be trash and in a heep.

    people always asked me about UV on raw carbon and IF IF IF. who cares.

    you are right BTW. it will corrode and i put nothing on it to prevent that.
    LOL! nuts for caring? now that's just mean...

    yeah I know most folks replace their forks more regularly than I do... but I'm the guy who just bought a blackspire shock tower brace for the Z3 qr20 I've owned for about 7 years now so I can try my hand at building my own 29er fork.
    (shortened springs and spacers already there, should turn my previously 4" fork into about 2 and change, maybe 3")

    (wow... 'zocchi's with bolt-on braces, that bring you back?! LOL)

    You're right, in competition use it's definitely less of a factor, I was just thinking of doing the job myself and then started wondering how I'd fix the potential corrosion because I DO like to go urban jumping in the winter and there IS going to be salt on these roads...
    I had a judy whose lowers were so bad I could (ahem... did) pick bits of dropout off with my fingernail.

    Shave-job's a no-go for me until I do my chem homework I guess!
    Thanks for letting me know!
    (if you do find something to seal the legs up, let me know... I'd love to try the mod, just can't afford to toss something like a 36 after just a couple years.)

  72. #72
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    5.75" long enough?

    Here it is Alex all together!
    Looks AWESOME!!

    check out the custom 29er I just picked up.
    Can't get the grin off my face!!!



    Check out the custom cut Fox36 TALAS RC2!!

  73. #73
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  74. #74
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    very important update is an introduction of WB 150mm with 35 stanchions. In my opinion 135mm version should be avaiable in 35mm option as well. think for Behemoth.
    Next step would be 160mm-75mm FR fork dual crown 40mm stanchions and for DH 45-50mm stanchions dual crown modified to fit there a dropper bar- a kind of handlebar which looks like a flipped over riser bar to cancell out the added front height caused by the bigger wheel.

    Let WB salvation begin.

  75. #75
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    You're right, you can save money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

  76. #76
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    The answer (an oldie but a goodie):
    Attached Images Attached Images

  77. #77
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    from the wikipedia article on magnesium:
    It tarnishes slightly when exposed to air, although unlike the alkaline metals, storage in an oxygen-free environment is unnecessary because magnesium is protected by a thin layer of oxide which is fairly impermeable and hard to remove.
    This is the same thing that happens to aluminum and titanium and allows them to be used unsealed structurally. Both can also be anodized which basically uses an electric field to grow the oxide layer thicker than it would normally form for protection (or to allow dying).

  78. #78
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    How would you compare WB forks to current Reba, DT swiss, Manitou and Fox offerings or fox 36 talas in terms of reliability and stiffness.

    Is there any flaw in 150mm fork?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    How would you compare WB forks to current Reba, DT swiss, Manitou and Fox offerings or fox 36 talas .

    Is there any flaw in 150mm fork?
    The White's are black, while all the others at least have an option for white. Kinda ironic, eh Daveypants?

    The Fox 36 is sort of a poopy brown.

    I've found that the brown color is much more reliable than black or white, at least on forks. YMMV.

  80. #80
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    Which colour should I choose then?

  81. #81
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    Well WB 35mm 150mm is the only choice for Wfo9 and Lunchbox6". Marzocchi produced a fork 140mm with 32mm stanchions and 15mm axle- why? Why not usind Maverick axle - 24mm on long travel forks? Why not making it stiffer?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Why not making it stiffer?
    I'll bet you hear that a lot.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by speeder3800

    "...This is a super stiff, overbuilt 7" travel Stratos DH fork. It has 35mm stanchions and a 20mm bolt on axle. It is disc only via standard tab style mounts. It has rebound and compression adjustment on the top of the legs. It was used with a headlock system. This fork is the definition of stiff! The break arch is movable as well.
    Actually no, those are not very stiff. I had one. They are a lot less stiff due to the brake-arch attachement, which is a "wrap-around" design. Once peice lowers are far stiffer, even if they use smaller diameter stanchions. Stratos never really overcame this and just continued to produce forks with this design long after it was an oudated way to make a fork. Marzocchi used a similer design on the first year of their super T (1997), but in 1998 they had a much more secure interface. Eventually one-peice lowers came along, but for this you had to cast magnesium or aluminum.

    While there were some good points about the stratos forks, they were massively heavy and not all that stiff compared to the competition. My MX6 (very similer to the pictured fork) was crap. My S8 ultra was ok, but at a few pounds less and 10mm less travel my shiver did everything the S8 did.

    Anyway this is retarded, it will be a while before anyone figures out how to have more than 6" of travel on a 29er without some jacked up geometry (the seat goes into the seat-tube) or radical interupted-seat tube design. With that in mind, you also can't increase the travel too much because pretty soon you're on a sky-scraper in terms of bar height. With steering that slow you won't be able to do much of anything very fast. No one really rides DH 29ers right now, but they'll require even heavier tires and rims than are currently available, and then you'll have all that much more rotational mass, so it isn't going to be like your current 29er. It will probably be so sluggish in terms of turning and whacked out in terms of geometry that I doubt it will be the fastest way down in most cases. 650b has far more potential in this area.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Well WB 35mm 150mm is the only choice for Wfo9 and Lunchbox6". Marzocchi produced a fork 140mm with 32mm stanchions and 15mm axle- why? Why not usind Maverick axle - 24mm on long travel forks? Why not making it stiffer?
    Probably because you're only considering one dimension of flex/stiffness. Fore-aft stiffness and strength are probably far more critical, and the "twisting" or torsion is probably not going to see a big gain in this respect. Remember you're comparing an upside-down fork to a conventional one. The upside-down maverical is a lot less stiff in torsion than a comparable conventional fork, so it HAS to use the 24mm hub. Conventional forks are far stiffer in torsion than the inverted maverick forks.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  85. #85
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    To keep the handle bar down use riser bar upside-down which makes it DROPPER-BAR a riser bar with minus riser like -2" why not?

    Edit:
    Axles 24mm will help stiffen the bigger wheels which are weaker than comparable 26er one. Making a 120mm hub for 24mm should be on all 29er forks above 140mm plus minimum tapered steerer tube or 1,5" and 35mm stanchions. whereas DH 29er forks 45mm stanchions.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    To keep the handle bar down use riser bar upside-down which makes it DROPPER-BAR a riser bar with minus riser like -2" why not?
    It won't be enough, you'll also have the steerer/top of the step to conk your head on, it would require a totally new interface, and this is assuming you can get around the barrier of rear travel.
    Edit:
    Axles 24mm will help stiffen the bigger wheels which are weaker than comparable 26er one. Making a 120mm hub for 24mm should be on all 29er forks above 140mm plus minimum tapered steerer tube or 1,5" and 35mm stanchions. whereas DH 29er forks 45mm stanchions.
    Stiffness or strength? Not the same thing, not to mention the flanges and spoke patterns are important. Just "guessing" that a 24mm hub would be better doesn't really have much validity. It could be better, but is it significantly better, does it offer any significant advantage?

    Are you talking about a single crown (with tapered steerer tubes and 45mm stanchions it sure sounds like it)? That's going to be a massive waste of resources, because it will still end up heavier than a dual-crown fork with the same strength and stiffness. The dual-crown design is more efficient in terms of strength/stiffness to weight. 45mm stanchions would be a joke, as you'd need a LOT of lubrication to keep them running smooth, bigger isn't necessarily better, and a dual crown fork with smaller stanchions still trumps a single crown with bigger stanchions. The reinfocement provided by the 2nd crown is huge.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The dual-crown design is more efficient in terms of strength/stiffness to weight. 45mm stanchions would be a joke, as you'd need a LOT of lubrication to keep them running smooth, bigger isn't necessarily better
    Dual crown with 45mm stanchions- I meant this for dh 29ers and tapered steerer tubes 1,75" to 1,5" at the top.
    MX forks have 50mm stanchions and work smoothly. Consider the leverage exerted on longer fork legs and you'll see. The longer the stanchions the thicker they must become in order to keep the same stiffness and strenght.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    MX forks have 50mm stanchions and work smoothly..
    Completely invalid. How much oil do MX forks have sloshing around? The same would be required for the DH forks, but there's no real benefit here to having such huge stanchions. In short, not needed.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Anyway this is retarded, it will be a while before anyone figures out how to have more than 6" of travel on a 29er...
    Well, it has been awhile. Has anyone heard of any new long-travel forks in the making?
    Maverick Durance Ano-DUC32/C KING/XTR
    Mav ML8 Ano-DUC32/X0
    Mav ML8-DUC32/I9/XTR
    09 Spec. Demo-Totem-Ti DHX
    Norco Team DH

  90. #90
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    What we need right now from WB is the Groove 203mm with 48-51mm offset to make that Lenz JAM alive. Another inch in the rear will not hurt either.

    For single crown any frok from 150mm must have 36mm stanchions and DH forks 42-45mm MX has 50mm. We are not far off.

  91. #91
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    I just came across this thread searching for more info on the 36 TALAS.

    I made me laugh, so bumped so a few other can have a chuckle too.

  92. #92
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    This guy DavidCopperfield is a genius magician of bicycle related comedy! Please give us more of your magic show, DavidCopperfield! MAKE IT BIGGER, STRONGER, STIFFER and DavidCopperfield will finally be satiated!

  93. #93
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    Well White Brothers dropped 20mm axles in favour of 15mm on 29er models also the stroke from 150 was decreased to 140mm. I do not surmise you can count to be salvated from them.
    What would change their image would be a 160mm 20mm axle fork tapered or full 1,5" and a nice 29er longer travel frame. 36-7mm stanchions. It would finally fill the gap in 140mm and 180 Dorado and WB groove 203mm

  94. #94
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    Bump.
    beaver hunt

  95. #95
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Be salvated my friend!

    White Brothers finally step in! 150mm, 34mm stanchions. Pitty that it isn't 180mm for the Niner D.T.S9 Down The Slope 9
    D. T. S. 9 - Down The Slope Nine with either 180 or 203mm rear.

    Long Travel 29" forks- Possible White Brothers' Salvation?-dsc03737.jpg

  96. #96
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    Yeah, an imaginary fork would be a good match for an imaginary bike.

  97. #97
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    New question here.

    White brothers always on the fore front is now rearing. Why? Why
    no 160mm forks with 34-36mm stanchions?
    Are they sleeping or slipping ?
    There is Rock Shox Pike 160mm and no answer from White Brothers?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    White brothers always on the fore front is now rearing. Why? Why
    no 160mm forks with 34-36mm stanchions?
    Are they sleeping or slipping ?
    There is Rock Shox Pike 160mm and no answer from White Brothers?



    Did you call them and ask? Let them know that your cred is on the line, that'll get them on the ball.

  99. #99
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    Oh, Davidcopperfield the magic man, how I've missed you... but, you seem to be mistaken. Those at the forefront can also be rearing, as the gay movement can be quite progressive...

  100. #100
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    Do White Brothers work on something big and light? Any 36mm 160mm forks in the pipeline?
    What about 29+ longer travel fork for up to 3.5 "tyres?
    Any more DH oriented fork?

    Lurkers share the wealth of knowledge.

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