• 05-25-2011
    zenkem
  • 05-25-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NUTT
    This one is a 2008 Shimano Alivio RD-M410.

    I'm pretty sure it is old & crappy enough that it is 7/8 speed only. At least that is what the Shimano website says.

    And honestly, it is garbage. If I could find a new or take-off SRAM X7 or X9 rear shifter & derailleur set for $50 or so I'll be much happier.

    Hmm. 9 speed cassettes are slightly wider than 8 speed (maybe 1mm) so maybe that's the difference. I can definitely understand wanting something better than an Alivio

    I may add some unsolicited advice: if it were my beater bike I would go with a cheaper, simpler and lower maintenance friction-shifting setup. In fact, that's exactly what I ran on my main mountain bike for quite a while. One of these shifters, single ring up front, and 5 cogs out back with some extra spacers in between each one to make the friction shifting easy. I disassembled a normal 8 or 9 speed cassette and took out every other cog within the range I wanted. The only tuning you ever have to do is set the high and low limit. No messing with indexing or anything.
  • 05-28-2011
    glenzx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 4x4runner View Post
    ...running SS without a tensioner so this gives me a starting point to figure out the "magic ratio" so to speak. any pictures of the chain side?

    Nope - and that photo is deceiving, as I do run a tensioner - just in "push up" mode to keep more rear cog chain wrap. FWIW I'm not so happy with it - it's a Surly version, but a number of them are pretty much the same. The light-duty derailleur spring(s) are not really strong enough to "push" hard enough, IMO - so I put a zip-tie around the the tensioner pulley-wheel axle and the chainstay, just a little snug - not tight. Works like a charm, and I always carry a few extras!

    The Rennen Rolleger (?) looks like one of the better set-ups - but hangs down like a derailleur, but allows mid-ride gear changes without fussing with the chain length, as it can take some slack, I think it's capable of running a double chainring in the front, in fact - and takes the slack between "high and low" gears - so it can easily tension a SS set-up really well.

    I have to say, I'm surprised how few EBB equipped rides there are out there; like the Specialized Stumpy HT SS frameset - that can also be set up geared. When I finally buy a SS frame, it must be capable of gears, as I do long rides at times that need big / multiple gears, and detest sliding rear dropouts, and steel frames - and can't afford the Niner Air 9 Carbon - though I'd sure like one. If they only made a scandium version...
  • 05-28-2011
    OilcanRacer
    i run one half link and it gets close to a magic ratio, but have yet to find one that works without too much slack. running a tensioner.
  • 05-31-2011
    TwoNin9r


    rigid...

    geared for now, will probably be SS soon. haven't decided if i'm gonna eventually go with a fork or not. i dunno anything really this build is just more of an experiment than anything else.
  • 06-02-2011
    glenzx
    "Magic" ratio / chain length
    Well, after tinkering with my tensioner - it looked like my current gearing of choice - 34t x 18t, was close to "perfect" with the use of a 1/2 link. I pulled a full link / pair, installed the 1/2 link - and presto - perfect chain tension on my SRAM 8 spd. chain with a few hundred miles on it. Drivetrain details are FSA compact road crank with a single-speed specific 110mm chainring and a Rennen 18t cog.

    Sweet!

  • 06-07-2011
    NUTT
    Access 29er neighborhood beater bike project.

    Updated build list as it sits right now:

    Have
    • Access XCL 29er frame, 21"
    • Soul Cycles Dillinger fork, 100mm corrected
    • Wheels - Specialized Rockhopper 29er take-offs
    • Tires - Schwalbe Big Apples for this bike
    • 9 speed rear derailleur & shifter, SRAM X-7, nearly new
    • 9 speed cassette SRAM 950, nearly new
    • F & R brake levers
    • Front Avid BB5
    • A few different saddles
    • A few different sets of grips
    • Crap plastic platforms


    Need
    • Bar & Stem
    • Seatpost
    • Single speed crank & BB (for 1x9 setup)
    • 9 speed chain
    • New brake cable & housing


    Optional (if I can find them dirt cheap)
    • Rear brake (I'll eventually upgrade my Specialized and carry the BB5 from that to this)
    • Nicer headset
    • Decent metal platforms, maybe Power Grips


    My initial build budget target was $350. I'm currently at $262.39.

    While I could make my target, I'd have to really compromise on the crank. I'm leaning towards another Truvativ Stylo 1.1 as I've had great luck with the one I have on my Specialized. I guess I have a decision to make or some hardcore searching to do.
  • 06-07-2011
    boomn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NUTT View Post
    While I could make my target, I'd have to really compromise on the crank. I'm leaning towards another Truvativ Stylo 1.1

    These Shimano cranks are at least as good if not better than the Stylo. The stock middle ring will work fine for 1x9, and you can upgrade later to a real SS ring for $25 or so
  • 06-07-2011
    NUTT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    These Shimano cranks are at least as good if not better than the Stylo. The stock middle ring will work fine for 1x9, and you can upgrade later to a real SS ring for $25 or so

    I'll definitely check it out. Thanks.
  • 06-07-2011
    GTscoob
    I cant wait to get mine built up. Finally got a 23" Access on sale last weekend but I probably wont touch it for a few months since I've got a road project almost complete and a custom hardtail on the way.

    I'm thinking 440mm 26" suspension corrected fork, should make for geometry very similar to a Ragley TD-1, but with slightly longer chainstays.
  • 06-27-2011
    glenzx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    I cant wait to get mine built up. Finally got a 23" Access on sale last weekend but I probably wont touch it for a few months since I've got a road project almost complete and a custom hardtail on the way.

    I'm thinking 440mm 26" suspension corrected fork, should make for geometry very similar to a Ragley TD-1, but with slightly longer chainstays.

    Are you building a 26" bike up? I mention it as the HT angle was too steep, the BB too low, and the rear traction fairly poor on my Access 29'er with a 465 axle to crown rigid fork, but a 440mm, as you mntioned - a full inch shorter, would make a bike that was crazy twitchy with a low BB and very poor rear wheel hook-up...
  • 06-27-2011
    GTscoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by glenzx View Post
    Are you building a 26" bike up? I mention it as the HT angle was too steep, the BB too low, and the rear traction fairly poor on my Access 29'er with a 465 axle to crown rigid fork, but a 440mm, as you mntioned - a full inch shorter, would make a bike that was crazy twitchy with a low BB and very poor rear wheel hook-up...

    I did read your post saying that, but I like my rigid bikes to handle very sharply. You mention poor climbing but are running a very low tread rear tire so thats a wash.

    FWIW, that fat front tire bike from page 2 looks to be running ~440mm fork, with the fat front so the geometry should be very similar. I'd like to hear back from that poster.

    The OS Blackbuck, designed around a 435mm fork, has more bottom bracket drop and steeper angles but people seem to love it. It'll be an experiment and if I hate it it'll be really easy to swap on a 465mm fork.

    I had a similar setup on a rigid singlespeed Santa Cruz Chameleon, running a 420mm rigid fork on that frame and the bike handled so crisply, slightly sketchy on the downhill but worth it everywhere else. A 440mm fork would be suspension corrected for that frame so I have a little bit of an idea what I'm getting myself into.
  • 08-17-2011
    Modded_Mongoose
  • 08-18-2011
    jaycarl
    very nice bike
  • 08-18-2011
    Modded_Mongoose
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jaycarl View Post
    very nice bike

    Thanks, I have big plans for it if my wife doesn't kill me first. haha.
    I'm probably going with XT derailleurs, a race face crank, stans ZTR Arch/X9 wheelset and eventually a Fox fork. I've got clipless pedals on the way.

    I'm loving it the way it is now though.
  • 01-30-2012
    GTscoob
    It's been about a month since I built my Access up and finally was able to get it on some trails this last weekend. So far, doesnt seem good for tight and twisty local trails (expected) but owned some more open trails south of Atlanta.

    Build:
    Frame: 23" Access 9r frame
    Fork: Kona P2, 468mm
    Headset: Cane Creek ZS3
    Stem: Titec
    Bars: Easton EA70
    Seatpost: 27.2mm Ritchey with a shim (not pictured). Wanted a little more spring with the aluminum frame
    Drivetrain: 770 XT cranks (180mm) with 780 XT rings (24/32/42), SLX 11-34 cassette
    Shifters/ders: SRAM X9, with XT front derailleur
    Brakes: BB7s with XT rotors (180/160)
    Pedals: Forte Convert
    Wheels: WTB Speeddisc AM laced to SLX hubs
    Tires: Ardent 2.4 EXO up front, Ikon 3C EXO in back



  • 02-05-2012
    tturbotom
    3 Attachment(s)
    The first picture is right before my first ride on my Access 29er. The 2nd picture is about 6 months later when I got a new rear wheel. The last picture is obvious, the same location, summer and winter.

    The build up:
    Access 29er frame (custom paint)
    Reba Rock Shox fork
    Shimano LX HollowTech crankset (1x9 drive)
    Shimano Shadow XT rear derailleur
    Shimano XT pedals
    Tektro Hydraulic disc brakes
    Bicycle Wheel Warehouse front wheel
    Velocity/Chris King 36 spoke rear wheel
    Crank Brother skewers
    Dorca carbon fiber handlebar
    FSA stem
    FSA seat post

    I stumbled onto this thread while researching a new headset.
  • 02-06-2012
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    It's been about a month since I built my Access up and finally was able to get it on some trails this last weekend. So far, doesnt seem good for tight and twisty local trails (expected) but owned some more open trails south of Atlanta.

    Build:
    Frame: 23" Access 9r frame
    Fork: Kona P2, 468mm
    Headset: Cane Creek ZS3
    Stem: Titec
    Bars: Easton EA70
    Seatpost: 27.2mm Ritchey with a shim (not pictured). Wanted a little more spring with the aluminum frame
    Drivetrain: 770 XT cranks (180mm) with 780 XT rings (24/32/42), SLX 11-34 cassette
    Shifters/ders: SRAM X9, with XT front derailleur
    Brakes: BB7s with XT rotors (180/160)
    Pedals: Forte Convert
    Wheels: WTB Speeddisc AM laced to SLX hubs
    Tires: Ardent 2.4 EXO up front, Ikon 3C EXO in back

    ANd how do you like the handling now that you're riding it?
  • 02-06-2012
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tturbotom View Post
    The first picture is right before my first ride on my Access 29er. The 2nd picture is about 6 months later when I got a new rear wheel. The last picture is obvious, the same location, summer and winter.

    The build up:
    Access 29er frame (custom paint)
    Reba Rock Shox fork
    Shimano LX HollowTech crankset (1x9 drive)
    Shimano Shadow XT rear derailleur
    Shimano XT pedals
    Tektro Hydraulic disc brakes
    Bicycle Wheel Warehouse front wheel
    Velocity/Chris King 36 spoke rear wheel
    Crank Brother skewers
    Dorca carbon fiber handlebar
    FSA stem
    FSA seat post

    I stumbled onto this thread while researching a new headset.

    I like your paint color! What happened to your rear wheel?
  • 02-06-2012
    GTscoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Natedogz View Post
    ANd how do you like the handling now that you're riding it?

    Handling is super slow with the big wheels and tall fork. Bike feels like a rigid tank, really easy to get sloppy and just plow over things with the big wheels; I see why people say that their 29ers are so confidence inspiring.

    The bike rocks when the trail opens up but is a handful on switchbacks and some of the tight and twisty local trails. First time I've told myself that I'm not going to bring a bike back to a certain trail system as the turns are too sharp and fast to be bothered with big wheels. My vintage Karakoram will handle those trails nicely, short top tube, short wheelbase, looooong stem, and tiny wheels.

    Slow handling aside, I really like it. I still want to try the shorter fork on it to speed up the handling but was already getting pedal strikes with the standard fork so I'd have to be extra careful if I dropped the front end an inch.
  • 04-29-2012
    Mr Cup
    Bikes all look great. For those of you who have put a lot of miles on these, what do you think about using one of these frames to build up a bike for bikepacking? Going to be doing a few 2-4 day, 100-200 mile trips and think I'd like to build up a bike myself vice using my current bike. This a good base for that or would I be better off with steel?
  • 04-29-2012
    CommuterBoy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Cup View Post
    Bikes all look great. For those of you who have put a lot of miles on these, what do you think about using one of these frames to build up a bike for bikepacking? Going to be doing a few 2-4 day, 100-200 mile trips and think I'd like to build up a bike myself vice using my current bike. This a good base for that or would I be better off with steel?

    Worked for me... 450 miles on the Oregon coast. I'm a trailer guy...but with the right fork you could load this thing up. Long chainstays...should be good for panniers if you go that route. We didn't see much dirt (a little on a side trip), but my experience says this frame is up to the task. Might be more harsh than steel, but go big on the tires and you're good...

  • 05-01-2012
    tturbotom
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Natedogz View Post
    I like your paint color! What happened to your rear wheel?

    I am prone to breaking rear hubs I figured A Chris King would last longer than 6 months
  • 08-27-2012
    dgw2jr
    I am building on of these for my wife. What cable routing kits did you guys use?
  • 08-27-2012
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Handling is super slow with the big wheels and tall fork. Bike feels like a rigid tank, really easy to get sloppy and just plow over things with the big wheels; I see why people say that their 29ers are so confidence inspiring.

    The bike rocks when the trail opens up but is a handful on switchbacks and some of the tight and twisty local trails. First time I've told myself that I'm not going to bring a bike back to a certain trail system as the turns are too sharp and fast to be bothered with big wheels. My vintage Karakoram will handle those trails nicely, short top tube, short wheelbase, looooong stem, and tiny wheels.

    Slow handling aside, I really like it. I still want to try the shorter fork on it to speed up the handling but was already getting pedal strikes with the standard fork so I'd have to be extra careful if I dropped the front end an inch.

    Thanks, I didn't like it at 80mm and bottomed out travel too often where I ride. Just converted Reba to 100mm and did fluid change at same time. Quick neighborhood ride it felt great. :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tturbotom View Post
    I am prone to breaking rear hubs I figured A Chris King would last longer than 6 months

    Thanks.
  • 08-28-2012
    CommuterBoy
    1 Attachment(s)
    Recently SS'd the frame from the pic a few posts above in 'touring' mode... ratio is 34/20 and the tension is just about right with a pre-stretched (from another bike) 8 speed SRAM chain.
  • 08-28-2012
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    Recently SS'd the frame from the pic a few posts above in 'touring' mode... ratio is 34/20 and the tension is just about right with a pre-stretched (from another bike) 8 speed SRAM chain.

    Very nice, looked back through this thread but didn't see what brand rigid fork and A to C measuerment? Thanks.:thumbsup: Miss my Haro Mary SS.
  • 08-28-2012
    CommuterBoy
    It's a Soul Cycles "Dillinger" fork, I think it's their 'generation 2' fork. It's steel. I don't know the A to C, sorry...but it's "suspension corrected" for 80mm of travel I think. They probably have the A to C info on their website. I actually bought it from Nitrousjunky here on the forum, maybe 3 years ago. It really works well with this frame in my opinion. Good feel.
  • 08-28-2012
    Natedogz
    Thanks!
  • 11-14-2012
    GTscoob
    Anybody in here ever run a double up front on their XCL 9r frame? I'm wanting to put a bashguard on mine after clipping the 42T ring more frequently than I'd like but I cant move my front derailleur low enough without the cage clipping the chainstay.

    Thinking either 24/32 gearing (current) or preferably 24/36 if I can find a decent 36T ring.
  • 11-14-2012
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Anybody in here ever run a double up front on their XCL 9r frame? I'm wanting to put a bashguard on mine after clipping the 42T ring more frequently than I'd like but I cant move my front derailleur low enough without the cage clipping the chainstay.

    Thinking either 24/32 gearing (current) or preferably 24/36 if I can find a decent 36T ring.

    Been running 2x9 for a year or two and love it, just replaced my big ring with a bash guard like the one from my Haro Mary SS. Derailler stays where it's at, just set limit screw so it can't travel above middle ring. :thumbsup:
  • 11-14-2012
    GTscoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Natedogz View Post
    Been running 2x9 for a year or two and love it, just replaced my big ring with a bash guard like the one from my Haro Mary SS. Derailler stays where it's at, just set limit screw so it can't travel above middle ring. :thumbsup:

    Thanks for the heads up and a bummer because one of the main advantages of running a double is the quicker shifting and chain security you can achieve with a lower spaced front derailleur.
  • 11-14-2012
    CommuterBoy
    I ran a road double on mine... 50/34 :lol: it was awesome for the commute. This was the chainstay clearance with the 50 tooth (with two spacers on the drive side)... ran it this way for 2 years with no issues :eek:

  • 11-27-2012
    GTscoob
    So a lot of people said they didnt like the way this bike rode with 100mm fork when compared to the 80mm fork. Was it the extra length? Extra BB height?

    Kinda wanting to drop an angleset in and slacken out the front end a bit. Right now the rear end feels really long relative to the front center and I feel like pushing the front wheel out a bit might help, especially since it'll keep the BB about the same height unlike running a taller fork.

    I've just been spending too much time on my dirt jumper and 26" hardtail and wanting to make my 29er a little more playful feeling.
  • 11-28-2012
    jeffj
    Started with a 120mm and then went to 100mm. Don't feel any need to go less than that. Definitely did not like it at 120mm.
  • 11-28-2012
    GTscoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Started with a 120mm and then went to 100mm. Don't feel any need to go less than that. Definitely did not like it at 120mm.

    Right on, thanks for the feedback. Was the steering sluggish at 120mm or did the bike feel like it had too much of a rearward weight bias? Kinda hard to isolate both sensations when you get the head angle and height increase from the taller fork.

    I should clarify, this is a bike that is going to stay rigid, just trying to make the bike feel a little more aggressive these days and I feel like I'm weighted pretty far forward on the bike compared to slacker 26" bikes.

    This one should press in and after the additional height of the external lower cup, will not affect the BB or handlebar height, just push the front wheel out ~16mm.
    1 5 Degree EC44 - EC44 - Angle Headset
  • 11-29-2012
    nbwallace
    1 Attachment(s)
    I built this for my wife
    It's custom powder coated Harley Davidson metallic orange with Circus Monkey orange hubs and Stan's gold anodized rims. This was taken last Spring. It's been further blinged out with more gold and orange parts now.
  • 11-29-2012
    GTscoob
    Looks wild!

    How does your wife like it?
  • 11-29-2012
    dgw2jr
    Wife's Access 29er at Levis

  • 11-29-2012
    nbwallace
    My wife is fond of the orange bike
    She doesn't use it for off-roading much. I have a set of wheels with slicks and she uses it to take the kids to school. The bike gets a lot of attention in the neighborhood, the other moms are jealous. The times we've gone on mountain biking dates it's done pretty well.
  • 11-29-2012
    OneBadWagon
    I just personally didn't like the way this bike rode. It fit great, the bike seemed to be very good at going fast in a straight line (I'm guessing the ST angle was pretty steep or something but it always felt like a bus.

    I rode it with a Vassago ODIS fork and a Reba @100mm. Size 21".
  • 12-10-2012
    allencb
    Two years later, mine is still going strong. I've upgraded the wheelset (Hope Pro 2 hubs and Stans Flow rims), and a few other bits since that first build.



    Chris
  • 07-22-2013
    GFisher2001
    Anyone on a 17". If so how tall are you and what's your inseam. Pulled the trigger on a 17" and hoping that I won't be disappointed.

    I am 5'8ish (in shoes) and 29/30" inseam.
  • 07-22-2013
    dgw2jr
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GFisher2001 View Post
    Anyone on a 17". If so how tall are you and what's your inseam. Pulled the trigger on a 17" and hoping that I won't be disappointed.

    I am 5'8ish (in shoes) and 29/30" inseam.

    Wife is 5'7" and she fits the 17" frame just fine.

    Attachment 818197
  • 07-22-2013
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Thanks for the heads up and a bummer because one of the main advantages of running a double is the quicker shifting and chain security you can achieve with a lower spaced front derailleur.

    Buy a 2x specific front derailler should help that, I'll wear out the one it came with first though. Has not been any problem for me.
  • 07-22-2013
    jeffj
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Right on, thanks for the feedback. Was the steering sluggish at 120mm or did the bike feel like it had too much of a rearward weight bias? Kinda hard to isolate both sensations when you get the head angle and height increase from the taller fork.

    I should clarify, this is a bike that is going to stay rigid, just trying to make the bike feel a little more aggressive these days and I feel like I'm weighted pretty far forward on the bike compared to slacker 26" bikes.

    This one should press in and after the additional height of the external lower cup, will not affect the BB or handlebar height, just push the front wheel out ~16mm.
    1 5 Degree EC44 - EC44 - Angle Headset

    Sorry for not replying sooner: It was both sluggish in the corners and got too light on steep climbs. Everything (for me) changed for the better by changing the travel to 100mm.
  • 07-22-2013
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Sorry for not replying sooner: It was both sluggish in the corners and got too light on steep climbs. Everything (for me) changed for the better by changing the travel to 100mm.

    I didn't try 120mm, but 80mm stock was good, but not quite enough for some of the rougher trails. 100mm with a Reba has been just right.
  • 07-22-2013
    GTscoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Sorry for not replying sooner: It was both sluggish in the corners and got too light on steep climbs. Everything (for me) changed for the better by changing the travel to 100mm.

    No worries. I never ended up getting the angleset, instead I scored a killer deal on a Banshee Paradox frame and moved a few parts over and sold my Access to a buddy wanting to get into mountain biking. So far we're both much happier. The Banshee was a night and day difference from the Access, definitely not as planted on the climbs with 140mm of travel up front but so much better all around.
  • 07-29-2013
    GFisher2001
    Anyone replace the headset?

    If so, which one, what brand and size?

    Thanks for any info!
  • 07-30-2013
    GTscoob
    It takes a 44mm Zerostack headset. I'd highly recommend a Cane Creek ZS44 40-series headset. The 10 series is a lot cheaper but not as well sealed.
  • 06-23-2015
    Darth Pinche
    1 Attachment(s)
    Here is a photo of my new 29er. I bought it on Craigslist for $100. It is an Access XCL 9r 9.5 (2010 I think) The rear wheel was out of true with loose spokes, a bent d/r hanger and a slashed tire. I fixed it up and outfitted with with a new tire/tube, chain and bash guard. I had an extra cassette and transferred over my favorite bar/stem and seat and she is ready to go! I made it s 2x9. It is my first 29er and it feels fast compared to my 2001 Specialized Enduro.

    Attachment 997728
  • 06-25-2015
    Natedogz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Darth Pinche View Post
    Here is a photo of my new 29er. I bought it on Craigslist for $100. It is an Access XCL 9r 9.5 (2010 I think) The rear wheel was out of true with loose spokes, a bent d/r hanger and a slashed tire. I fixed it up and outfitted with with a new tire/tube, chain and bash guard. I had an extra cassette and transferred over my favorite bar/stem and seat and she is ready to go! I made it s 2x9. It is my first 29er and it feels fast compared to my 2001 Specialized Enduro.

    Attachment 997728

    Great score and nice looking bike, mine still rides great! Too bad Performance raised the price on these after I bought mine, then lowered build specs all of which killed the great deal that they were. Ride on and enjoy it! :)
  • 08-28-2015
    Darth Pinche
    2 Attachment(s)
    Here is an update. I have just added a Manitou Marvel Comp 120 mm travel fork. It is great! The longer fork makes the head angle now 69 degrees. The forks added offset makes for a nice balance of stability without being floppy. The red flat pedals are performance branded HT's. Light, grippy and cheap as hell ($32). I'm loving this bike!

    Attachment 1011676Attachment 1011677
  • 09-01-2015
    Darth Pinche
    I am running a 2.25 Ardent up front and a 2.2 Conti Mountain King II out back. I have been surprised with both of their grippiness, but plan to get meatier tired once they wear out. I miss the Hans Dampfs and Nevegals I ran on my Enduro.