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  1. #51
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Let's talk about head angle and trail

    First, thanks to Intense for putting forth the effort, and subjecting themselves to the "wolves" here. This is a fine idea as far as I'm concerned. although it may not be for me, we'll see!

    Head angle: This and trail numbers seem to vary all over the place as far as what all of us 29"er aficiandos think is proper for the big wheels. On one hand we have mikesee, who favors a slacker head angle and greater trail than most. Now we have Intense on the opposite end of the scale with their steeper head angle, resulting in a lower trail number.

    I wonder if anyone with more smarts than I would like to weigh in on the issue? Mikesee, what do you think? I seem to remember that mikesee liked his setup because it was very stable and handled really well in the singletrack. The Intense people seem to think that wheel flop during slow speed climbs is a problem, and downhill stability is not affected by their seemingly very steep head angles.

    Am I goofy, or does some of this seem contradictory here?

    Discuss!

  2. #52
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    Good job! Pile-On!

    Quote Originally Posted by goneskiian
    Just from those 2 photos it doesn't look like the 26" wheeled Spider has any more clearance than the PROTOTYPE 29er.

    There are lots of folks here that need to lighten up a bit and give Intense some credit for even building a prototype. Choices are a good thing folks!

    Don't forget, Intense make tires too. If they're designing a bike maybe they've got some tires in the works as well. Sounds all good to me.

    Cheers!
    -Ian

    - Thanks Shiggy, DWF, & goneskiian......... The voices of reason!
    Also - Thanks Intense for giving thought to 29ers and quite possibly another option. Can
    you please push Rob @ Santa Cruz a little on this one too???

  3. #53
    Blanco
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    What really surprises me is the amount of posters that drool all over themselves when (insert manufacturer here) introduces another steel HT frame. How boring is that?
    DING DING DING DING! If you want a steel frame, there are any number of custom builders, many of whom post on this board. I understand why Kona or GF making one is interesting, because it costs less, but why do we need any more mass-produced steel frames that cost more than a Waltworks, Sycip, or Curtlo?

    I, for one, think this is really cool. It's exactly the opposite of the bike I want, but I think it's very cool that Intense is creating such a focused design. 26" hardtails converged long ago to 71/73 geometry with short chainstays, and everyone gets really excited over a 5/8" change in TT (dirt jumpers and other heavy freeride frames excepted). Now, with a new market in 622 wheels, we actually have some choices in how we want a bike to ride and handle. Enjoy it for a few years before everything converges to two or three basic designs.

  4. #54
    This place needs an enema
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Head angle: This and trail numbers seem to vary all over the place as far as what all of us 29"er aficiandos think is proper for the big wheels..

    I wonder if anyone with more smarts than I would like to weigh in on the issue?

    Am I goofy, or does some of this seem contradictory here?

    Discuss!
    There are so many ways to manipulate the geo of a bike. You can have a low trail number but still get (with other tweaks) a stable bike at speed. You can have a high trail number on a bike that's quicker than you know what to do with.

    Bottom line is that it's personal preference. Best evidence is this thread--opinions are all over the place.

    More confounding is that for most of us, our mtb rides feature varying terrain, varying levels of traction, varying pitch, roots, rocks, mud, rain, snow, small wheel-attacking rodents and other unpredictables. To compensate, you're all over the bike to maintain balance and traction. Suspension is compressing, wheels are turning and slipping, numbers are changing. Nothing is ever static.

    Not to mention that you've got different body shapes and sizes, different levels of experience, different levels of aggressiveness, and hugely varying levels of trail difficulty. What's insane for me to try might be mundane for you to do. And vice versa.

    Further complicating things is that you get a vocal minority that know a lot about the numbers and how a bike *should* handle, but that opinion is often based on the numbers *on paper*, not necessarily on the actual ride.

    In the middle you've got a decent sized group that understands (in a basic sense) how the numbers affect the ride, and many of them have realized that what is 'ideal' (can of worms, I know, but allow me to generalize so that we can all get back to what we were doing) on a 26" bike is not ideal with big wheels.

    Then you've got a huge number of people out riding, with no idea what the numbers on their bike work out to. They know it's very different from their 26" bikes, they know they love it, but they can't explain why.

    How do you bring them all together? You don't. You build what works for you, and if it works for enough people the word will get out there (courtesy of word of mouth testimonials, in the real world as well as on forums like this one) and you're in business.

    This is exactly what has happenned to Walt, Wily, Lenz, Niner, et al. If the bikes sucked, would we be paying big money to buy them, much less continually riding them? Of course not. These companies/individuals are building bikes that people are fanatical about, and the result is that they can't build them fast enough to meet demand.

    So how does that answer G-Ted's question? Intense is building what they think works. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. The market will determine that quickly. If steep angles and a low trail number don't work, Intense won't sell many bikes. Maybe they'll blame the market and say that 29" is too small of a niche. Or maybe they'll say, "Hey, we've got our hands full with 26" stuff--no time for 29". Or, maybe they'll mellow on their geo stance. Hard telling, not knowing...

    I suspect that they will sell a lot of bikes, not only because of their reputation, but also because the 29" market is growing and diversifying. Aside from a few smaller custom shops, how many bikes can you name that have similar geo? I can't think of any. They've got the keys to a corner of this market.

    That right there might be why they are doing it: because only they are doing it.

    That geo does not work for me in any of the places that I ride or have ridden. But it may work for some, and that's reason enough.

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 11-11-2005 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #55
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    Excellent post!

    Well thought-out overview of the various facets of custom frame design.

  6. #56
    WAWE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki

    B for innovation
    D for drivetrain efficiency and wear
    A for short chainstay/long travel ratio with high pivot
    F for rider/wheelsize ratio
    That thing looks ridiculous... sky high pivot? The reduced cog/chainring engagement looks like it was designed to ghost shift!?

    I'd run it over with my neighbor's big purple truck and put it out of its misery.




  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    To repeat, Intense Cycles sold Intense Tires several years ago. Now totally separate companies.
    Thanks Shiggy. Sorry to make you repeat yourself. I was not aware of this. I assumed that because they have a link on their website to some tires with their name on them that they were still in the tire biz.

    Cheers!
    -Ian

  8. #58
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    After seeing this, I would think Santa Cruz is re-evaluating their thoughts on the 29" market. Especially if they look at the forum post counts...this forum is now the largest and I suspect people are very interested in a new race bike. I believe many visiting here are not looking for just hardtails or singlespeeds.

    If Intense can get this frame to market pretty fast (April-ish timeframe) I'd suspect people wanting to upgrade/get something new for the next racing season would like this frame and it would be at the top of a lot of peoples short list.
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  9. #59
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    There are so many ways to manipulate the geo of a bike. You can have a low trail number but still get (with other tweaks) a stable bike at speed. You can have a high trail number on a bike that's quicker than you know what to do with.

    Bottom line is that it's personal preference. Best evidence is this thread--opinions are all over the place.

    More confounding is that for most of us, our mtb rides feature varying terrain, varying levels of traction, varying pitch, roots, rocks, mud, rain, snow, small wheel-attacking rodents and other unpredictables. To compensate, you're all over the bike to maintain balance and traction. Suspension is compressing, wheels are turning and slipping, numbers are changing. Nothing is ever static.

    Not to mention that you've got different body shapes and sizes, different levels of experience, different levels of aggressiveness, and hugely varying levels of trail difficulty.. What's insane for me to try might be mundane for you to do. And vice versa.

    Further complicating things is that you get a vocal minority that know a lot about the numbers and how a bike *should* handle, but that opinion is often based on the numbers *on paper*, not necessarily on the actual ride.

    In the middle you've got a decent sized group that understands (in a basic sense) how the numbers affect the ride, and many of them have realized that what is 'ideal' (can of worms, I know, but allow me to generalize so that we can all get back to what we were doing) on a 26" bike is not ideal with big wheels.

    Then you've got a huge number of people out riding, with no idea what the numbers on their bike work out to. They know it's very different from their 26" bikes, they know they love it, but they can't explain why.

    How do you bring them all together? You don't. You build what works for you, and if it works for enough people the word will get out there (courtesy of word of mouth testimonials, in the real world as well as on forums like this one) and you're in business.

    This is exactly what has happenned to Walt, Wily, Lenz, Niner, et al. If the bikes sucked, would we be paying big money to buy them, much less continually ride them? Of course not. These companies/individuals are building bikes that people are fanatical about, and the result is that they can't build them fast enough to meet demand.

    So how does that answer G-Ted's question? Intense is building what they think works. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. The market will determine that quickly. If steep angles and a low trail number don't work, Intense won't sell many bikes. Maybe they'll blame the market and say that 29" is too small of a niche. Or maybe they'll say, "Hey, we've got our hands full with 26" stuff--no time for 29". Or, maybe they'll mellow on their geo stance. Hard telling, not knowing...

    I suspect that they will sell a lot of bikes, not only because of their reputation, but also because the 29" market is growing and diversifying. Aside from a few smaller custom shops, how many bikes can you name that have similar geo? I can't think of any. They've got the keys to a corner of this market.

    That right there might be why they are doing it: because only they are doing it.

    That geo does not work for me in any of the places that I ride or have ridden. But it may work for some, and that's reason enough.

    MC
    - Very well written post. DO keep in mind, he said it's a prototype and angles can/could
    change.

  10. #60
    Driven by watts inside
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    If this frame is available by the start of racing season, I will buy one. Currently, I'm planning on ordering a custom Ti Racer-X 29, but the Spider would change my mind. I'd actually probably buy both just to compare.

    73 sounds logical. I want a bike that won't wander on ball-busting steep climbs, yet rolls over obstacles smoothly and won't eject me over the bars on steep descents.

    Honestly, even if 73 performs better than 72 or 71, I bet that 72 or 71 would sell better simply because people freak out when they see 73. Can you imagine this bike being reviewed by the jackasses at MBA? Even if it performed like a dream, I guarantee that they would still ***** and make up imaginary stories about how the steep head angle caused "twitchy" steering. They've got great imaginations over at that rag...

    - Jeremy -

  11. #61
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Thanks Mr. mikesee!

    I'll make sure to bring you an apple next time I come for school!

    I'm not much good at this geometry stuff, so thanks for the "down to earth" explanation! Sometimes when the propeller heads and geeks get cranked up here, I lose interest!

    Makes sense now, thanks again!

  12. #62
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    This may not be a valid enough point for some people, but the way I look at it and others may have said this, is that the more companies are investing time, hrs, and money in te 29'er field the better all of us 29 riders will benefit. This means more companies will jump aboard and start catering as well, this way you don't have 10 tires to choose from you have much much more. The 29'er is still underrated and not as accepted at the 26" bike so the best thing we can do is try to support as much diversity as possible, so that in turn we get rewarded with much more choice and options.

    It is like the old saying "don't look at the accident", if a bike "prototype" doesn't suit you or your riding style then just "don't look at it". Others may love the ideas presented etc.

    I think if Intense believes in the project enough to take the time to create, test and one day produce a 29'er then I give them a big high 5 and raise my glass!!

  13. #63
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    In stead of correcting head angles to supersteep in order to work their way around (perceived) handling issues with 29" wheels, please let fork makers just adjust the offset of their 29" fork to match the wheel used.

    We know White Brothers is working on it, and I love them for it. Please if anyone is now investing in a 29" fork, let them get it right first time! That would take away so many of the design restraints towards a short trail 29"er!

  14. #64
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    SS Spider

    I weep for the soul of this bike.

  15. #65
    Law
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredbadams
    I weep for the soul of this bike.

    Intense makes killer bikes, but since when has ANY Intense bike ever had a soul. Only a certain type of bike has a soul, and they are usually made by small operations where some guy spend too much time making it for the money he charges. Also some older bikes simply by being ridden thousands of miles have found a soul, even if they were not born with one. I suppose an Intense could get one in this manner but I doubt it.

    Of course, I am a bit silly about this, but I still have only named one bike ever, because only one bike ever has had a soul. And it was because it was my first bike I ever owned, a Schwinn Stingray that I rode from the time I was 5 until I was 12 and is still at my parents house.
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  16. #66
    Snapper
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    Hi Gang,

    Well l own one and ride it often. I am 6.5 and 230lbs and have riden it on all types of terrain. I have done 6 hour epics to smaller gap jumps. The only issue l have had is l believe the rear is too flexy for my heft (most FS are). Other than that it is the best ride l have ever owned. Stable has included Motolite, El Comandate SS, Yeti 575 and ARC, Intense 6.6 and Tracer, Specialised Enduro and the Spider shits it in................. period.
    One thing l did (out of necessity rather than design) is l put a Manitou Minute 120 on the front which does relax the HA / SA and slightly raise the BB.......... all good things for me......... wont suit everyone. Two other friends of mine have ridden just as many brands as l and will tell you that their Intenses are the best of the bunch(5.5 and 6.6)........... for them.
    JD
    Last edited by johnd663; 10-23-2008 at 08:23 PM.

  17. #67
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Nothing like replying to a 3 year old thread which was talking about the prototype...

  18. #68
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd663
    Hi Gang,

    Dont quite know how there can be so many negative comments when so few of you have ridden one. From a photo of a prototype suddenly it is the "death of soul", a crusade of honour and the cause of the credit crisis. Well l own one and ride it often. I am 6.5 and 230lbs and have riden it on all types of terrain. I have done 6 hour epics to smaller gap jumps. The only issue l have had is l believe the rear is too flexy for my heft (most FS are). Other than that it is the best ride l have ever owned. Stable has included Motolite, El Comandate SS, Yeti 575 and ARC, Intense 6.6 and Tracer, Specialised Enduro and the Spider shits it in................. period.
    One thing l did (out of necessity rather than design) is l put a Manitou Minute 120 on the front which does relax the HA / SA and slightly raise the BB.......... all good things for me......... wont suit everyone. Two other friends of mine have ridden just as many brands as l and will tell you that their Intenses are the best of the bunch(5.5 and 6.6)........... for them.
    Too much bike snobbery folks
    Get ridin, less whinging
    JD
    In the past three years since this thread was active I'm sure lots of people have had a chance to ride one. Some opinions might have changed. Many of the people on this thread aren't even on this forum any more.

  19. #69
    Snapper
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    I appriciate it may be an old thread but you do a search on Intense Spider 29er on MTBR and this is all you get. I was discusssing the attitude more so than the content and offering my own findings on this particular bike. Shouldn't give an arse if it is one day old or three years, it is still relevant and the level of attitude expressed was unproductive and frankly rather mundain and typical. Thankyou Nat for being informative and polite and 6TH Element for continuing to uphold the steriotypical forum prowler. I was just looking for information on my bike and there is sweet f all. Perhaps there may be others out there who may benefit from the sharing of information................ oh thats what forums are for.

  20. #70
    Recovering
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd663
    I appriciate it may be an old thread but you do a search on Intense Spider 29er on MTBR and this is all you get.
    Really? A search for "Spider 29er" turns up 8 pages of threads- well over a hundred threads with mentions of the Spider 29er.

    I ride one and love it, but haven't felt the need to challenge old opinions on long-forgotten threads. Next time, just start a new thread and share your own positive experiences (the more pics the better), rather than digging up ancient history and getting argumentative about it...
    Former New Yorker, now in Fort Collins
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  21. #71
    SyT
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    I own one.
    I've ridden it.
    It is ridiculously flexy.
    Although Intense has never acknowledged the problem, I understand there will be changes to the 09's to address it.
    I would be glad to tell you, 3 years from now, what I thought of this frame

  22. #72
    Snapper
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    Please excuse my emotional state.

    OK l will shut up now. Point taken. I should watch my own emotional state before added my two bobs worth.
    I will go and hide in the Titus forums now.
    By the way my Spider is very flexy as well and Intense suggested running a Shimano quick release as they have the best / firmest cam action. I use Chris King fun bolts and it hasnt improved.

  23. #73
    SyT
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    I wasnt hatin', it doesn't bother me one bit that you pulled this up. If I wasnt interested, I wouldnt've clicked on it. (funny how that works, my choice and all). Intense knows, or should know, no skewer of any kind, nor 20mm axle, is gonna fix the noodle of rear triangle they sold to the public.

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