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How much of a disadvantage XC versus Trail Bike - Racing

40K views 257 replies 58 participants last post by  brent701 
#1 · (Edited)
EDIT!!! THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN THOROUGHLY ANSWERED AND OP HAS DECIDED ON A TRAIL FRIENDLY XC BIKE (Blur 3 Tr). THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR VALUABLE INPUT

Let's say I have an opportunity to either get a Trek Fuel Ex 9.9 or a Trek Top Fuel RSL for my next bike.

1. If I do a local (central Texas area) XC bike race, how much of a disadvantage would I be looking at with the Ex over the RSL if I kept everything stock?

2. If I kept everything stock on the Ex, would it still work as a XC race bike assuming I am not really there gunning for a podium spot anyway?

3. If I got a pair of XC friendly wheels, and a carbon post for the EX, would it be about the same level of race friendliness as the RSL?

I know this is a done to death topic but I am torn. I want the fastest bike possible, I want to start racing, and I know that a XC bike can double as a trail bike with little issue but at the same time I mostly, like 90% of the time, my rides are on the trails by myself. I'd also be nervous that the RSL might get beat up with too much trail usage (I have never owned a XC bike so I don't know how durable it would be).

I know that no one can give me a definitive answer. I just want to discuss the topic especially with those who have experience racing a trail bike or trailing on a XC bike.

Edit: (for those who are new to thread and only reading this post before responding) in summary throughout this thread I have gone from wanting the Ex for its versatility, to a top fuel for the speed, to a trail upgraded top fuel for versatility back to wanting an Ex.

I would also add that right now my goals with biking are the following, in order.

1. Have fun
2. Hunt KOMs on Strava at local trails
3. Race competitively at any local central Texas races
4. Compete in long distance races such as dragons egg 3 lap or whole enchilada.
5. (Maybe) eventually try 27.5+ one day for shets and gigglets.
 
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#60 ·
I really believe it comes down to riding style. A trail bike is going to cater to a more aggressive riding style and can be ridden faster on more technical trails than a XC racer. In the right hands, with someone who rides aggressively and has a high degree of technical acumen, they're simply going to be faster....that is why the world of Enduro racing has become so successful.

However, if you need the bike to be more for you, ie. you need to make up for the lack of skill through technical parts, and your strategy is to make up time with speed through faster sections and the climbs....the XC racer is going to give big advantages in acceleration and efficiency. They're simply lighter and faster bikes.

If I were still racing XC, and wanted to be competitive on XC courses, I would own an XC race bike. Its going to give me a bigger advantage throughout the duration of a race, and I'll have more chances to make up time. This is of course specific to the context of XC racing where squeezing out seconds matters

However, if I'm not racing, or if I were only doing a couple races a year with some friends for fun. I would own a trail bike and just use that. They can be built up light, and be fast (reference my first paragraph), but simply put....trail bikes are just more fun, more versatile, and you're not going to run into the same problems as you will with a XC race bike. Instead of tip-toe'ing through sketchy sections picking your line because you have weight-weenie tires...you blast through it with white knuckles of rage. The whole point of a trail bike is that you don't pick the line you need to take, you pick the line you want to go....and there's a real difference, and satisfaction that comes along with being able to do that.
 
#61 ·
Instead of tip-toe'ing through sketchy sections picking your line because you have weight-weenie tires...you blast through it with white knuckles of rage.....[/QUOTE]

Best sentence I've ever read on here.Liiterary genius.
 
#62 ·
Instead of tip-toe'ing through sketchy sections picking your line because you have weight-weenie tires...you blast through it with white knuckles of rage.....
Best sentence I've ever read on here.Liiterary genius.[/QUOTE]

HAHA, Thanks Dude!

Seriously....Tip-Toe'ing! Literally F'ing Tip-Toe'ing!!!

Exhibition A. Tip-toe'er (left), compared to white-knuckle trail-rager! (right) Clothing Tire Mountain bike Sports equipment Downhill mountain biking
 
#64 ·
I started riding last year at 50. I have a 32 pound Giant FS and a 2017 Trek 9.9 Top Fuel RSL. I ride the Top Fuel everywhere including on the downhill runs at Northstar. Northstar is the only place I enjoyed the heavier full suspension Giant. I also raced 5 XC races this year, CAT 3. The Top Fuel worked well but I am thinking I might pick up a hard tail for the races with lots of climbing and try that for awhile.
 
#73 ·
I have a 16 top fuel 9.8 I think it definitely fights outside it's weight class. I Just put on 2.35 Forekaster tires and have it set up with a 125mm dropper & wide ID carbon wheels. For only 100mm travel It climbs and descends great in the right hands.

The 16 has all RockShox suspension and a lockout that actually works, the 17 I guess not so much. You can easily get this bike down to 22-23 lbs if that's your thing too.
 
#74 ·
I have a 16 top fuel 9.8 I think it definitely fights outside it's weight class. I Just put on 2.35 Forekaster tires and have it set up with a 125mm dropper & wide ID carbon wheels. For only 100mm travel It climbs and descends great in the right hands.

The 16 has all RockShox suspension and a lockout that actually works, the 17 I guess not so much. You can easily get this bike down to 22-23 lbs if that's your thing too.
How much does your bike weight in current form?
 
#76 ·
What's the issue with the stepcast fork? I am seeing a lot of people online talking about removing the fork and swapping it for something beefier. If I end up not needing more than 100 mm of travel is there any other reason why this fork wouldn't work for someone? I don't seem to find much online about any specific issues with it over any other 100mm fork.
 
#77 ·
The fork is supposed to be great. Its an innovation in XC racing forks. They cutout the legs to make space for boost hubs and a giant Rotor without having to make the crown wider and add flex. They actually made the crown narrower and the Stanchions and legs are 10mm closer together than the regular fox 32. The reg fox 32 is notoriously Flexy. I reckon the SC may be a little more stiffer/resistant to twisting than the regular float 32. It is far lighter because of these changes, a few others and the fact that the stanchions are shorter which is why it cannot be extended past 100. (neither can the new Sid).

Although. If you are heavy and you are bombing rock gardens and drops (aka Austin terrain) you may want a stiffer fork. you don't need the additional travel, you may just want it. You could have both forks, or you could sell it "new take off" o used easily. It will be a highly desired fork (the stepcast). I ride a little on the "sendy" side which has me looking at the 34.

A larger volume front tire alone will help the front fork a great deal in the chunk.
On the XC side:
XR2 2.35
IKON EXO 2.35
Forekaster 2.35 (actually smaller than 2.35)

On the Trail side but still fast
Nobby nic Snakesin 2.35
Hans Dampf Hard compound Sakeskin 2.35 (my favorite)

The fork is only rated for 2.3, but people have fit some of these tires. You may need to test fit.
 
#79 ·
This has nothing to do with bottoming out. Its actual flex in the fork from impacts and heavy braking. The higher volume tire will help it to rollover more and deflect vs getting hung up in the rocks. Again, I ride everything on 100mm Manitou marvel pro (32mm). My wife is on 90MM Sid which I will bump to 110 and upgrade to Charger soon. We have ridden and raced all over Texas, Sedona, Santa Fe, Bentonville on our bikes. including anything marked as double black. I walked a Large drop to flat on Hangover in Sedona that was featured in Nate Hills video ;). I also shred the rocky stuff with several people on Top Fuels 9.8s and they love them.

Current XC bikes are amazing. Don't get talked into something your don't need. Just Good tires and a dropper is enough to totally transform them for Major trail duty.

165 is not heavy, in fact you will probably do very well as a racer as your bike fitness very quickly improves over the season from racing and training. At 165, you can make tons of gains in 2 months, enough to be extremely competitive in Cat 3. Good luck!
 
#84 ·
Lol, great point and pretty much that’s what I see every weekend. Seriously a good 29er hardtail can handle 75% of my So Cal trails. I don’t race anymore but if I where wanting that option, I would get a Race build XC bike and just swap wheel sets and tires for trail riding, not as much for improvemed trail riding but to save the tread and not damage the racing tires and wheels before a race. I would also always to a few training rides on my race set up to acclamate prior to the race. I was never on an XC race podium but from my observation those races are won by strong climbers that have a bike that scrambles up the hill and gets knocked around on the descent.
 
#99 · (Edited)
Lol, great point and pretty much that's what I see every weekend. Seriously a good 29er hardtail can handle 75% of my So Cal trails. I don't race anymore but if I where wanting that option, I would get a Race build XC bike and just swap wheel sets and tires for trail riding, not as much for improvemed trail riding but to save the tread and not damage the racing tires and wheels before a race. I would also always to a few training rides on my race set up to acclamate prior to the race. I was never on an XC race podium but from my observation those races are won by strong climbers that have a bike that scrambles up the hill and gets knocked around on the descent.
Yup, I have an Anthem 29 which is 100/100. I've taken that bike everywhere and point it down hill as fast as it will go.

I bought an XTC carbon Hardtail frame to race most of the easiest stuff. I finding myself riding this bike everywhere anyways. including the gnarly stuff. Its just so much fun to ride and the acceleration is addicting. It was perfectly comfortable hitting a 5 foot drop this past. I was going 18 mph mind you which helps, but the idea is you can do it. I wouldn't roll off a 5 footer at 2 mph and "drop to flat."

Not so much that XC bikes can't descend but I figure something like a true enduro race but with timed uphill sections as well. Long gnarly descents and also rather difficult climbs. But I guess if any race is including timed uphills would favor an XC bike since you spend more time and effort climbing to the same height you'd descend from.

But yeah something like the race you mentioned. I guess I am just a sad camper that a trail bike doesn't really seem to have it's place in the race world other than for those looking solely to dabble.
1. Enduro races are not times up hills. You have a time you need to get to the check point but it is Sloooow.

Don't be sad you have options.

The only thing about an XC that cant descend is the person on the saddle. Tires are a limiting factor because physics. That's a cheap fix!

Look at any strava segment on any trail you ride. the top 20 is going to be filled with Fast guys on big bikes and Fast Cross country racers. I don't want to go posting a bunch of strava segments to prove a point, But if you look at any trail, that's who is on it. You probably just don't know who these people are yet. Texas is pretty pedally even downhill segments. Fitness goes a long way.

Look at the local enduro series. Many of the features in those races that are the most challenging are cause by people not being able to have enough speed to clear a double or a gap. Tell me how an XC bike doesn't actually improve this situation. Sure there are segments with drops, that you would prefer more travel, but they can be ridden on an XC rig.

There are Gnarly stage races where Trail bikes are good to have and protect your body. I would still take the XC bike for the ease of climbing. I won the 1 lap at the Lake Georgetown - Dragon Slayer on my anthem 100/100. The guys that won the three lap were on steel single speed hardtails.

Top Fuel
2017 Pike 120mm
XTR brakes
XTR derailleur
xx1 cassette
Monarch XX with HV can
Bike yoke 120mm dropper
DT swiss XMC1200 wheels
bontrager xr3 front and rear
From XC to 6 foot drops its done it all. This bike has done BC bike race, loads of endurance races, and XC racing. Things screams downhill and goes up pretty good as well!
24.6 pounds
]
Is this the 9.8 frame or the 9.9 all carbon?

Weight with pedals
 
#86 ·
Random question as someone who is just now looking to get into the race scene.

Are there any races or race types that are designed for trail bikes? It seems like all races are designed for a short travel xc bike or a burley enduro rig but not much in between.

Something like an enduro race but the climbs are also timed and not just the descents, so you'd want a bike that can climb well and descend well, a good mid travel bike.
 
#88 ·
Random question as someone who is just now looking to get into the race scene.

Are there any races or race types that are designed for trail bikes? It seems like all races are designed for a short travel xc bike or a burley enduro rig but not much in between.

Something like an enduro race but the climbs are also timed and not just the descents, so you'd want a bike that can climb well and descend well, a good mid travel bike.
Something like this?

http://forums.mtbr.com/colorado-fro...placed-enduro-format-race-2018-a-1063342.html

I must admit that I'm confused about your continued insistence that XC bikes don't descend well. Looking at the times for that course, all of the uphill segments are owned by XC racers, and at least three of the four downhill segments are topped by XC racers.

I guess, sure, a trail bike might go down hill better than an XC bike, depending on the rider. Fast people are fast regardless of the bike, but choose the best bike for that particular application.
 
#87 ·
So it seems to me that the best thing to do is demo the TF. You already have an F-ex so you should have a reasonable idea of what a new one would feel like.

The "trail bikes are more fun" thing everyone throws out is REALLY subjective. Disclaimer: I currently ride a '16 F-ex 9 (mainly because I got a screaming good deal on it). While the travel and slack geo is nice/fun on chunky descents, probably 75% of the time, I miss the snappy handling of a more XC oriented bike on our local trails (central VA).
 
#95 ·
Ya hard tails rule. Just so great for everything from my 40 mile round trip commute to work (mix of trail and pavement) to riding to the trails to ride, low maintenance, light, and they handle so precisely and predictably.

I've owned all kinds of bikes over the last 30 years of riding and racing, full suss, HT, rigid, SS for many years. My current bike is a 2017 Specialized Epic expert World Cup Carbon HT and the thing absolutely rips everywhere. It's the lightest production MTB frame. Has proven to take a real beating as I broke my last HT after 9 months of use which was a 2016 Kona Honzo AL DL with some upgrades. I ride the same terrain on the Epic HT and due to the steeper HTA and lighter weight the Epic is way more nimble and flickable in tight techy terrain and it climbs like a friggin homesick angle. Descends amazing too. No need for a droppah post, IMO. Just adds weight and complexity. I'm. 5'11 165 lb and ride very rocky/rooty steep terrain mostly.

Check em out.
Tire Wheel Bicycle wheel rim Mode of transport Bicycle tire
 
#106 ·
Seems this thread has gone in favor of the XC bikes. I'm going to say it doesn't matter...

Keep the cockpit long enough for good power transfer, and run a decently fast tire, and a trail bike will be of little to no disadvantage in an XC race.

I had plenty of decent results racing regional events in the pro/open class aboard a 130 mm / 140 mm trail bike, and trust me, it's not like I'm making up lost time with talent. Even on shorter races and smoother courses it did fine. AND I had a bike to competitively race enduro with merely a tire, and maybe stem swap.

I came to realize that with decent tires and fit, the bike isn't going to make a difference. So I choose the bike that is the most fun to ride for the area that I live. I will say that I happen to be on an XC bike now...with a dropper and 120 mm fork, but I have no delusions that it's any faster than the 120/130 travel bike I was on last year. It's just more fun for where I live now.

For the op and the region he is riding, an XC bike does sound like the more fun option. But he shouldn't be thinking that it will necessarily be any fast.
 
#107 ·
I'm generally faster on my XC bike (100mm HT) vs the trail bike (140mm FS). If I have to pedal and climb more than I get to descend...I'll take the XC bike. If I'm doing more gravity oriented riding...then I'll use the trail bike. I've got some DH PR's that I set on my XC bike that I can't beat on the trail bike. My XC bike is also 19.7 vs the 30.5lbs trail bike.
 
#110 ·
My wife believes her new Kona Hei Hei is the perfect blend of XC fast and trail shredding she's ever ridden.
View attachment 1178513
I'm thinking if I build a Top Fuel like this it may fit the bill.

Considering a TF 9.8 (or maybe a 9.9 if inventory becomes available soon enough and funds are there)
switching the kovee wheels for line pro 30's
switching the pro seatpost for a drop line
switching the 100mm step cast for a 120mm 34
switching the tires for something closer to 2.4" with decent cornering

Might try the 100mm fork though for a bit and see how much I like it first tnough and if I really need the extra 20mm of travel.
 
#114 ·
That makes sense. Would the extra rim width hurt me though in any way if I run 2.35 Ikons? The wheels I could get a decent deal (considering selling the kovees) and they have 2x the POE and better hubs though I could convert the Kovee's to 2x as well fairly easily with the kit Trek sells.

Not so much bike blogs as the most fun tire I have ridden on our trails here so far has been the 2.6 nobby nic and right now I am rolling on the 2.4 Xr4 which is decent enough to enjoy as well. I admit though that I do not have very much experience on anything thinner than a 2.35 since my Marlin 5 6 years ago.
 
#115 ·
That makes sense. Would the extra rim width hurt me though in any way if I run 2.35 Ikons? The wheels I could get a decent deal (considering selling the kovees) and they have 2x the POE and better hubs though I could convert the Kovee's to 2x as well fairly easily with the kit Trek sells.

Not so much bike blogs as the most fun tire I have ridden on our trails here so far has been the 2.6 nobby nic and right now I am rolling on the 2.4 Xr4 which is decent enough to enjoy as well. I admit though that I do not have very much experience on anything thinner than a 2.35 since my Marlin 5 6 years ago.
Sorry, I made more edits to my post above. It takes forever because IE doesn't like to take all of the letters I type when editing.

Yes, Too much rim width will square off your tire.

If you want to run that tire for fun, Build up a spare wide front, but don't do that to your rear! You can build up a light strong wide front wheel for 200 bucks. I would still encourage you to try out a good Enduro front tire before going down this rabbit hole. if you REALLY need traction, give the Magic marry Trailstar a go. You don't need all that volume.

I hear that 2.6 No No is fun. The old one was really light. I hear the Addix one is quite a bit heavier but who knows. My fun tire like I said is a HD at around 21 PSI. Im 200 pounds loaded up. Its a more aggressive tire than the XR4. Mine weighs 805 grams in pace star.
 
#116 ·
I consider the fuel ex as a trail race bike. The top fuel is a xc race bike. If I only had one bicycle that had to do everything I would go with the fuel ex. A lot of 650b bikes similar to the fuel ex are now being marketed as XC bikes. They fly in rooty twisty trails like you find in the southeast and on the east coast.
 
#120 ·
OP:

If I were you, I'd see if you like racing before you drop $5-10k on a new kind of bike that is better suited to a kind of riding you might not enjoy.

Best solution: Find some fast tires, throw them on your current bike, reduce your sag by 5%, enter race. Don't buy a new bike until you've determined that you actually enjoy XC racing. It isn't for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
#125 ·
I wish trek still made the 2016 fuel ex! I never had one, but I would think that would be a great all around bike.... The frame weight is about about the same as the top fuel but has 120mm of rear travel. Crazy they only made if for one year!

The current fuel ex's weigh a little more and have more travel.. They are more of a trail bike for sure... My friend has a 2018 Fuel Ex 9.9, he races his top fuel in xc, endurance and rides the fuel ex for training and fun.
 
#133 ·
Just as a comparison.

My Santa Cruz 5010 I bought used with 2.4 Highroller (front) and 2.35 Hans Dampf(rear) and the stock alloy wheels WTB ST i23. The bike was fun as my burly gnar bike, but felt slow anywhere but down. It is heavy at 29lbs, but also sluggish.

Recently I got a deal on set of WTB Asym i35 wheels. Despuite being 35mm internal vs 23mm they were lighter. I put a 2.6 Forekaster and 2.6 Rekon (rear) on the bike. The tires just barely fit in the rear. First right the bike got so much faster. I feel like the old tires were very draggy and were holding me back. With 2.6 size and 15psi front and 22 rear I get more grip than I had with beefy tires. That said the bike is still not as fast as my XC HT bikes which are several pounds lighter, but tire type does make a difference.
 
#134 · (Edited)
Rc bike are more use ful then trial bike and I know that a XC bike can double as a trail bike with little issue but at the same time I mostly, like 90% of the time, my rides are on the trails by myself. I'd also be nervous that the RSL might get beat up with too much trail usage
----------------
http://rxmarine.com/Natural-Blue-Biodegradable-Cleaner-Degreaser] DEGREASER [/url]
 
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