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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    So you think a 32 pound Riot will outclimb a 27 pound Jeffsy? There are many facets of climbing, but that would be interesting to see. Maybe on highly technical chunky climbs, but on typical single track climbing trails or even fire roads, very doubtful. There is a reason the Jeffsy doesn't have mounts to run 2x and from what I have read on their suspension curves, it is supposed to be most efficient around some small rings.
    Umm. The Jeffsy is available with 2x.

  2. #302
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    Whoops, my mistake...I did know that. Perhaps it will take another year for bikes to catch up. If 27.5 bikes can be hammered and withstand punishment at 27 pounds, why can't 29ers? Why would they have be built so much more stout?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    Whoops, my mistake...I did know that. Perhaps it will take another year for bikes to catch up. If 27.5 bikes can be hammered and withstand punishment at 27 pounds, why can't 29ers? Why would they have be built so much more stout?
    Longer lengths of various components

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  4. #304
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    I threw a lot of money at my Switchblade. I ended up putting on heavier parts because to me it's the nature of the bike. Like I mentioned before I do have a shorter travel bike so of course I don't have a one bike quiver. So these are my choices
    1. Fun - Following
    2. Efficient trail - Primer
    3.. Tweener - 429T

    Put a 36 on the front and swap between trail and and light enduro tires of your choice. I haven't tried the Primer, but more aggressive tires transforms my other two choices.

    But wait there's more - Hightower, Tallboy, 429SL, Wreakoning, Riot, Trail Pistol, Smuggler, new EX9, new Stumpy, Ripley, Prime, Phantom, Slash, Django - did I forget any? 29ers are far from dead.


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  5. #305
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    Forgot at least one:


  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    However, the 2 extra pounds is a turn off to most looking for a holy grail bike.
    Huge Canfield Brothers fan here... I soooo wanted to build up a Riot but the extra heft of the frame turned me away. Ended up going with a Hightower C S kit. Not a ton lighter but I drank from the carbon fiber kool-aid and was hooked.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    I threw a lot of money at my Switchblade. I ended up putting on heavier parts because to me it's the nature of the bike. Like I mentioned before I do have a shorter travel bike so of course I don't have a one bike quiver. So these are my choices
    1. Fun - Following
    2. Efficient trail - Primer
    3.. Tweener - 429T

    Put a 36 on the front and swap between trail and and light enduro tires of your choice. I haven't tried the Primer, but more aggressive tires transforms my other two choices.

    But wait there's more - Hightower, Tallboy, 429SL, Wreakoning, Riot, Trail Pistol, Smuggler, new EX9, new Stumpy, Ripley, Prime, Phantom, Slash, Django - did I forget any? 29ers are far from dead.


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    DrDon a big

    Sooooo many great choices. Also to your point most if not all of these bikes can be build up for your own riding style / trails.

  8. #308
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    When I was bike shopping near the end of 2015, I went into it just knowing I needed a 140-150mm bike. So I did some demo days, and test rides, and tried to be brutally honest with myself about what I really did when I was riding (and not what I dream of doing without fear of ER bills), and what I needed a bike to do well. And around here, when it comes to time spent in the saddle, I spend a lot more of it climbing (I'm a SLOW climber) than descending. At the end of the day, a tweener bike ('16 Fuel EX9) fit the bill, and when I rode one at a demo day I fell in love almost instantly. I added a large volume spacer to the rear shock, and any of the jumps / drops I've hit I've yet to bottom it out, and I never feel under biked in places like Pisgah, or over biked even on tame stuff like Tsali. If my riding progresses beyond that bike, then I'll look into something longer travel. But when I was testing bikes, all the new long, low and slack bikes felt like riding a dump truck to the top handling wise (keep in mind, I'm that weirdo that likes the Fuel in high geometry, even when descending), in my opinion. But for now, and over a year of riding it, I truly love this bike. But, everyone has different skill sets, and thus needs a different bike for their needs.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    So you think a 32 pound Riot will outclimb a 27 pound Jeffsy?
    Never ridden a Jeffsy but own a Riot and the bike is just a flat out fun playful bike to ride.

    Looking at and comparing Riot/Jeffsy anti-squat numbers, the Riot is MUCH more
    efficient peddler. So yes the Riot might just outclimb the Jeffsy even if it is a few lbs heavier, if the Jeffsy is squatting and robbing you of pedaling power.

    Linkage Design: Young Talent

    "As you can see in the table excel and previous graphics system of the new YT Jeffsy 2016 has a pedaling efficiency somewhat low, with percentages of Anti-squat about 90% with a transmission of 1x11 and a plate of 28T. The percentages are not too low, but as we shall see later the system is very sensitive and that makes the movement of the suspension also is greater"


    Canfield Brothers Riot 2015 - Linkage Design

    "As you can see in the table excel and previous graphics the new Canfield Riot has an efficiency very high pedaling, with percentages of Anti-squat always around 100% ( It has a very flat plot of AS, so you can play the percentages of Sag without affecting the system ...)."

  10. #310
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    The new 2017 Niner Rip 9 RDO is another awesome 29er that does getting much attention/press.

    The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-p5pb13741053.jpg

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    The new 2017 Niner Rip 9 RDO is another awesome 29er that does getting much attention/press.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looks pretty sweet! My only gripe in terms of 1st impressions would be that exposed lower pivot. Reminds me of my old TBLT. I used to always smack the lower pivot on boulders and such. Do you think they've tucked it away enough on this frame design?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post

    Looking at and comparing Riot/Jeffsy anti-squat numbers, the Riot is MUCH more
    efficient peddler. So yes the Riot might just outclimb the Jeffsy even if it is a few lbs heavier, if the Jeffsy is squatting and robbing you of pedaling power.

    Canfield Brothers Riot 2015 - Linkage Design

    "As you can see in the table excel and previous graphics the new Canfield Riot has an efficiency very high pedaling, with percentages of Anti-squat always around 100% ( It has a very flat plot of AS, so you can play the percentages of Sag without affecting the system ...)."
    Yes, the riot has achieved a nearly flat amount, very similar to an Evil. Obviously they had to use a little more complexity to achieve it, but no doubt it should be a very consistently good pedaling bike. The bikes that have falling curves, especially horst links, other mini-links like niner, will start to pedal worse the more you sag or cycle through travel (bumps). So if you are faced with a technical section uphill, already just holding on, these bikes will throw weight backwards due to your pedal accelerations, moreso in the bumps, compressing the rear suspension, requiring more energy to maintain your forward momentum, unweighting the front, creating a situation where the harder you try to push through said terrain, the worse the bike behaves. When you are dog-tired or just barely cranking along, it's at it's worse (because your accelerations are most pronounced).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  13. #313
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    I'm still waiting to see if anything new comes out and will just ride the Spider for now. I have a 140 Pike on it so it is probably slightly slacker than the stock builds. I spent too much on the road bikes anyway so I need a break, especially given the better half's plans for 2017. I'll keep putting a little money away and maybe spring for a new bike this summer. The Primer looks really good, and if the Ripley LS gains 10-20 mm of rear travel, that would be another top choice. I'd consider the Trek as well but the Following, Yeti 4.5, Trail Pistol, Riot, etc...are all out of the running now.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, the riot has achieved a nearly flat amount, very similar to an Evil. Obviously they had to use a little more complexity to achieve it, but no doubt it should be a very consistently good pedaling bike. The bikes that have falling curves, especially horst links, other mini-links like niner, will start to pedal worse the more you sag or cycle through travel (bumps). So if you are faced with a technical section uphill, already just holding on, these bikes will throw weight backwards due to your pedal accelerations, moreso in the bumps, compressing the rear suspension, requiring more energy to maintain your forward momentum, unweighting the front, creating a situation where the harder you try to push through said terrain, the worse the bike behaves. When you are dog-tired or just barely cranking along, it's at it's worse (because your accelerations are most pronounced).
    I noticed this right away when I let my friend ride my Riot for a bit and I rode his carbon Stumpjumper. It was lighter but I felt how much it needed the platform in order to pedal right. Crazy thing is that when I rode a FSR bike before, I was so used to it that I would have sworn that it pedaled great.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I noticed this right away when I let my friend ride my Riot for a bit and I rode his carbon Stumpjumper. It was lighter but I felt how much it needed the platform in order to pedal right. Crazy thing is that when I rode a FSR bike before, I was so used to it that I would have sworn that it pedaled great.
    I was in the same boat with my 2016 carbon stumpy. It was about 5 lbs lighter then my riot but when I first demoed a riot I couldn't believe how well it pedaled. Didn't need the platform where my stumpy I had needed it badly.


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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    I was in the same boat with my 2016 carbon stumpy. It was about 5 lbs lighter then my riot but when I first demoed a riot I couldn't believe how well it pedaled. Didn't need the platform where my stumpy I had needed it badly.


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    Lol, this fall I was renting and demoing mid travel 29ers. I had contacted Canfield with questions and got great replies, but since I hadn't even seen the bike I was hesitant. I was on a SJ when on vacation and wasn't really liking it on long climbs. Wasn't to bad on technical stuff. But was getting worn out. And wanted my hard tail. Then someone rode by on a Riot. I explained my situation, offered some cash to just ride it up and back down, and he could stick with me on the SJ, he laughed and said save the cash for the Riot. Even though it was a size bigger, and the SJ fit like a glove. I made my decision

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycljunkie View Post
    Do you think they've tucked it away enough on this frame design?
    Buddy just picked one of these up and dinged the link on his second ride on it, it looks tough though so just a cosmetic thing. Probably help him fabricate a guard for it here.

    Rode it around the parking lot and its a nice bike, seemed plusher than the Riot and feels nimble also.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I noticed this right away when I let my friend ride my Riot for a bit and I rode his carbon Stumpjumper. It was lighter but I felt how much it needed the platform in order to pedal right. Crazy thing is that when I rode a FSR bike before, I was so used to it that I would have sworn that it pedaled great.
    I had a 2012 SJ as well and thought the same thing until the same shop got in a demo Tallboy. I made the mistake of taking that for a ride and it was eye opening.

    That's why on every which bike thread I respond to, I say you have to ride them yourself.
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, the riot has achieved a nearly flat amount, very similar to an Evil. Obviously they had to use a little more complexity to achieve it, but no doubt it should be a very consistently good pedaling bike. The bikes that have falling curves, especially horst links, other mini-links like niner, will start to pedal worse the more you sag or cycle through travel (bumps). So if you are faced with a technical section uphill, already just holding on, these bikes will throw weight backwards due to your pedal accelerations, moreso in the bumps, compressing the rear suspension, requiring more energy to maintain your forward momentum, unweighting the front, creating a situation where the harder you try to push through said terrain, the worse the bike behaves. When you are dog-tired or just barely cranking along, it's at it's worse (because your accelerations are most pronounced).
    Are those "Linkage Design" numbers accurate?


    Also, those graphs create curves based on pedalling with the chain in mid-cassette. When I really need AS I'm usually in a lower gear. I want to know a bike's AS value when in 30x36, not 32x18. Are those curves "relatively constant" through the cassette?

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    They aren't listed on the site. OTE doesn't carry them so I would think not. Zion Cycles carries them but that bike would be a special order.
    You can take mine for a spin if we come to the festival and you ride a Medium. We're on the fence on where we're going the festival weekend. We might go to Tucson.
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  21. #321
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    thanks for the offer and I really would like to meet you there, I'm almost 6'3" though.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Forgot at least one:


    That is just plain wrong.

    If my bike looked that nice I'd never ride the damn thing for fear of spoiling it.


    Saw one of those in person, big mistake.

  23. #323
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    How are you liking that dhr2 and aggressor combo. The 2.3 dhr2 in 27.5 slapped me on my face for one of the hardest hits I have had in years, so I'm a bit gun shy about trying it in 29er on the front. Think a 2.4 might be a bit better for front duties?

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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    How are you liking that dhr2 and aggressor combo. The 2.3 dhr2 in 27.5 slapped me on my face for one of the hardest hits I have had in years, so I'm a bit gun shy about trying it in 29er on the front. Think a 2.4 might be a bit better for front duties?

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    Yeah, I'm happy with the DHR2 WT. I'd say I like it at least as much as the DHF 2.5. The Aggressor is a decent fast(ish) rolling complement, but it gives a weird 'unzipping' sound and sensation when cornering hard out of berms. Maybe that's to be expected from the design. I haven't used any of the aggressive semi-slicks yet, although I have used and liked the Ikon 2.35 paired with a HR2 in front.

    I might switch to HR2 or Forekaster and Ikon 2.35 for spring until the trails start to blow out and the parks open. But when it's loose, I was pleased with the DHR2 WT.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    That is just plain wrong.

    If my bike looked that nice I'd never ride the damn thing for fear of spoiling it.


    Saw one of those in person, big mistake.
    Last weekend I was talking to a friend of mine who has a SB6 with a higher-end (XTR) build from the same shop, but only half the painted spokes. He mentioned having to remind himself he bought it to ride it and it's a tool, not a jewel. I always wince at the first scratch or ding, but then I start breathing again. The whole bike was covered with sealant from a gnarly crash and needed a thorough cleaning before that photo shoot, actually.

    I've always rolled my eyes at the Yeti cult, and they've had some misses, too. But this bike is legit.

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Yeah, I'm happy with the DHR2 WT. I'd say I like it at least as much as the DHF 2.5. The Aggressor is a decent fast(ish) rolling complement, but it gives a weird 'unzipping' sound and sensation when cornering hard out of berms. Maybe that's to be expected from the design. I haven't used any of the aggressive semi-slicks yet, although I have used and liked the Ikon 2.35 paired with a HR2 in front.

    I might switch to HR2 or Forekaster and Ikon 2.35 for spring until the trails start to blow out and the parks open. But when it's loose, I was pleased with the DHR2 WT.
    The forkaster makes a great rear tire. I feel no difference in resistance, but grip is much better than an Icon or SS. My go to is Forkaster rear, and I'll pair it with a dhr2, dhf, or another forkaster(only long rides that grip isn't #1 concern) depending on what I need.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    How are you liking that dhr2 and aggressor combo. The 2.3 dhr2 in 27.5 slapped me on my face for one of the hardest hits I have had in years, so I'm a bit gun shy about trying it in 29er on the front. Think a 2.4 might be a bit better for front duties?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
    I've run the WT/Aggressor combo this past summer and liked it a lot. I'm going to try a WT/Morsa at Sedona but I'm taking a Aggressor with me just in case.


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  28. #328
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    My Holy Grail 29er. Big ass tires, check. 200mm dropper post, check. Under 28lbs, check.
    Climbs like an XC bike and descends like a DH bike. NO that shit doesn't exist, but it does both pretty damn good.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Forgot at least one:

    This is the one I went with and it's a great bike. The rear end is a bit harsh but it's so efficient. Not a small difference.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Are those "Linkage Design" numbers accurate?


    Also, those graphs create curves based on pedalling with the chain in mid-cassette. When I really need AS I'm usually in a lower gear. I want to know a bike's AS value when in 30x36, not 32x18. Are those curves "relatively constant" through the cassette?
    Yes, 30t chainring gives an almost flat 100% antisquat. If you want more get a smaller chainring and wider cassette.

  31. #331
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    You get my point. New geo mid to long travel 29er with fat tires and dropper and still at a descent weight. Looks awesome!
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  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Are those "Linkage Design" numbers accurate?


    Also, those graphs create curves based on pedalling with the chain in mid-cassette. When I really need AS I'm usually in a lower gear. I want to know a bike's AS value when in 30x36, not 32x18. Are those curves "relatively constant" through the cassette?
    It is not about accurate numbers. it is more about comparing bike to bike. If analysis is done consistently by the same person , error will be approximately the same for each bike. That will give you good tool to compare how active bikes suspension are.

    I would not definitely read these numbers like a Bible. Kinematics includes only side view of the bike geometry with chain line and chain stays. They are changing their angles when shock compress and rebound.

    Calculations can be done very precisely if you have high resolution picture of the bike and accurately mark the pivots for analyzing. You do not even need to analyze anything. If pivot connecting to the frame seat tube ( for Horst link or Singe Pivot) is well above your chain ring you already know that your bike will have very high anti - squad numbers.

    My understanding is that these calculations are very theoretical and do not take into account shock tuning and it may lead to very wrong conclusions. Not all the latest and greatest bikes have high anti-squad numbers , yet pedal very well.

    I totally agree that higher anti- squad numbers are most important for the bigger cogs while you pedaling hard uphill. For downhill you need opposite. You want to free drive train from chain tension to have supple suspension without violent cranks kickbacks.

    Some of these characteristic curves of the linkage can very accurately predict behavior of suspension. For instance it explains why is so hard setup sag properly on Niner 9 RKT. Obviously with such a steep anti-squad curve little changes in shock pressure are causing big changes in suspension activity. Virtually you can read it from the graph.

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Are those "Linkage Design" numbers accurate?
    Quote Originally Posted by mark85 View Post
    It is not about accurate numbers. it is more about comparing bike to bike. If analysis is done consistently by the same person , error will be approximately the same for each bike. That will give you good tool to compare how active bikes suspension are.
    \


    I'd personally take that site with a huge grain of salt.
    Who's the guy doing the analysis? He has a few pictures of designs for Jerónimo Cycles, but they don't make a full suspension bike.

    He doesn't have exact measurements, throws guesses of numbers from pictures into a program and spits out an analysis is what it looks like to me.
    Yet somehow comes up with analysis that people should use to judge a bike - really?
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  34. #334
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    The versatility of the Hightower continues to amaze me. If considering and testing it in 29er form, definitely try flipping the rear shock chip into 27.5 mode for a snappier playful ride experience. I riding this way on my local mellow trails and loving it. The frame "optionality" is top notch.
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  35. #335
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    The YT Jeffsy is the funnest (if that's a word) all-around bike I've ridden. Great technical climber and a blast going downhill. Not quite as efficient as my old Tallboy on smoother climbs but way moore fun! YT is going to be at Outerbike in Moab at the end of March if you can get there to demo some bikes.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    \

    I'd personally take that site with a huge grain of salt.
    Who's the guy doing the analysis?
    This site has Antonio from Spain doing analysis of suspension designs. There's no voodoo or magic involved with mountain bike suspension, it plays by the laws of physics. It was only a matter of time before these parameters could be analyzed at home with software and formulas to derive all the factors at play. I've found his analysis to be spot on, as far as bike traits, etc. There is a lot of information on the website. Use google translate and you can get a good idea about what is going on with a particular bike, whether you can expect it to be efficient, if it has a wacky leverage curve, etc. Andre tends to be a little forgiving/easy in his analysis, stating that bikes with markedly poor suspension designs will simply "rely on the shock" more, but again, it's easy to see what's going on. Bikes with Anti-Squat (AS) around 100% throughout much of the travel will pedal consistently well, while going up, down, sucking up bumps, riding over roots, etc. Bikes with abnormally high AS will be harsh while pedaling through rock gardens and bumps, although there are less and less of these and they are becoming very rare. Bikes with very low AS are also becoming more rare, but there are still quite a few out there, many tend to be fairly obscure (to us in the US) brands, many horst links, etc. The other common trend is a falling AS curve, which is unique to most horst-link bikes and a few others like Niners. My issue with these is they tend to assume a fairly unrealistic scenario, that you only want 100% AS at the sag point, because it forces you to use only that sag point and if anything changes, like you ride over a bump, you get a different amount of AS (less), so pedaling through rough terrain uphill can significantly change efficiency on these bikes.

    Linkage Design

    This is also a great resource. Not the same guy, but Andre from Portugal (videos are in English). He has a lot of great tutorial videos, including more in-depth analysis of bikes and suspension traits.

    [Videos] MTB Rear suspension series | Ridemonkey Forums

    https://www.youtube.com/user/andrextr/videos

    If you read and watch a few of the tutorials, you can figure out what the graphs mean and get a pretty good idea of how the bike will ride, how efficient it will be, if they tuned the leverage ratio for an air shock, or for a coil shock, or if it's just wacky.

    Looking at the Jefsey, it has a fairly low amount of AS, except that it appears that it's intended to be used with 2 rings. If you use 2 rings, that boosts the AS back up to around 100% at the sag point in climbing gears. I find this to be somewhat common to many bikes as well, that they aren't really optimized for a 1x drivetrain, such as my old Specialized Enduro. Putting a 1x on there made the pedaling significantly worse. There are of course many bikes where it looks like they did intend to use a 1x drivetrain, it's just that there appear to be some holdovers still.

    The Santa Cruz and Yeti bikes have the close-to-100% AS through a decent chunk of the travel, this is why they pedal well and tend to get good reviews, like the DW link bikes. This trend seems to be increasing with a lot of higher end bikes these days. There are of course the single-pivots these days like Evil and others that also have flat AS curves around 100% through much of the travel, so not necessary to use fancy dual linkage system either. Going back to 1x vs multiple chainrings, this was one of the primary things about the horst link back in the day, it was trying to balance out the radically different characteristics you get from having 3 chainrings, so that in the smallest chainring it would have the highest amount of AS and in the biggest chainring, the lowest AS. Of course, this is kind of invalid today, as going to 1x drivetrains has simplified things to a large extent for new suspension design, only have to be concerned about a relatively small spread now, maybe 28-34t or so, instead of 22 to 44.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This site has Antonio from Spain doing analysis of suspension designs. There's no voodoo or magic involved with mountain bike suspension, it plays by the laws of physics. It was only a matter of time before these parameters could be analyzed at home with software and formulas to derive all the factors at play. I've found his analysis to be spot on, as far as bike traits, etc. There is a lot of information on the website. Use google translate and you can get a good idea about what is going on with a particular bike, whether you can expect it to be efficient, if it has a wacky leverage curve, etc. Andre tends to be a little forgiving/easy in his analysis, stating that bikes with markedly poor suspension designs will simply "rely on the shock" more, but again, it's easy to see what's going on. Bikes with Anti-Squat (AS) around 100% throughout much of the travel will pedal consistently well, while going up, down, sucking up bumps, riding over roots, etc. Bikes with abnormally high AS will be harsh while pedaling through rock gardens and bumps, although there are less and less of these and they are becoming very rare. Bikes with very low AS are also becoming more rare, but there are still quite a few out there, many tend to be fairly obscure (to us in the US) brands, many horst links, etc. The other common trend is a falling AS curve, which is unique to most horst-link bikes and a few others like Niners. My issue with these is they tend to assume a fairly unrealistic scenario, that you only want 100% AS at the sag point, because it forces you to use only that sag point and if anything changes, like you ride over a bump, you get a different amount of AS (less), so pedaling through rough terrain uphill can significantly change efficiency on these bikes.

    Linkage Design

    This is also a great resource. Not the same guy, but Andre from Portugal (videos are in English). He has a lot of great tutorial videos, including more in-depth analysis of bikes and suspension traits.

    [Videos] MTB Rear suspension series | Ridemonkey Forums

    https://www.youtube.com/user/andrextr/videos

    If you read and watch a few of the tutorials, you can figure out what the graphs mean and get a pretty good idea of how the bike will ride, how efficient it will be, if they tuned the leverage ratio for an air shock, or for a coil shock, or if it's just wacky.
    No one is questioning the accuracy of the output of the calculation. However, the garbage in garbage out principle still holds true and most of the inputs are derived from less than precise measurements.

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  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This site has Antonio from Spain doing analysis of suspension designs. There's no voodoo or magic involved with mountain bike suspension, it plays by the laws of physics. It was only a matter of time before these parameters could be analyzed at home with software and formulas to derive all the factors at play. I've found his analysis to be spot on, as far as bike traits, etc. There is a lot of information on the website. Use google translate and you can get a good idea about what is going on with a particular bike, whether you can expect it to be efficient, if it has a wacky leverage curve, etc. Andre tends to be a little forgiving/easy in his analysis, stating that bikes with markedly poor suspension designs will simply "rely on the shock" more, but again, it's easy to see what's going on. Bikes with Anti-Squat (AS) around 100% throughout much of the travel will pedal consistently well, while going up, down, sucking up bumps, riding over roots, etc. Bikes with abnormally high AS will be harsh while pedaling through rock gardens and bumps, although there are less and less of these and they are becoming very rare. Bikes with very low AS are also becoming more rare, but there are still quite a few out there, many tend to be fairly obscure (to us in the US) brands, many horst links, etc. The other common trend is a falling AS curve, which is unique to most horst-link bikes and a few others like Niners. My issue with these is they tend to assume a fairly unrealistic scenario, that you only want 100% AS at the sag point, because it forces you to use only that sag point and if anything changes, like you ride over a bump, you get a different amount of AS (less), so pedaling through rough terrain uphill can significantly change efficiency on these bikes.

    Linkage Design

    This is also a great resource. Not the same guy, but Andre from Portugal (videos are in English). He has a lot of great tutorial videos, including more in-depth analysis of bikes and suspension traits.

    [Videos] MTB Rear suspension series | Ridemonkey Forums

    https://www.youtube.com/user/andrextr/videos

    If you read and watch a few of the tutorials, you can figure out what the graphs mean and get a pretty good idea of how the bike will ride, how efficient it will be, if they tuned the leverage ratio for an air shock, or for a coil shock, or if it's just wacky.
    The issue I have is I doubt they have all those frames and take measurements- so what are they plugging into the software to come up with the curve.
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  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    The issue I have is I doubt they have all those frames and take measurements- so what are they plugging into the software to come up with the curve.
    Search Ridemonkey for it, they have a good thread on just what you are asking about and these two "experts". The conclusion (from engineers that were participating) was that these analysis are "close enough" to get a good general idea about the bikes. The guys doing these analysis seem to be taking time to get the measurements correct, as they aren't popping analysis out left and right at some high rate. You are correct that small variations can make a difference, but within a margin of error, these are accurate.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    The issue I have is I doubt they have all those frames and take measurements- so what are they plugging into the software to come up with the curve.
    Appears to be using the below software to do the calculation. Probably contacts the bike mfg, bike owners or bike shops to get the measurement for calculation.

    Like Jayem said it is not rocket science and seems to be fairly accurate comparing the charts on the bikes I have owned.

    Linkage Bike Simulation Software - Home

  41. #341
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    Antonio is using high resolution pictures.
    He will not do a review from a classical web-sized (low res) pict.
    This gives enought precision to get the curves right.

    He has written on the shock modeling issue. As manufacturer do not give the curves, this is no easy to modelise, but the linkage already gives a lot of information.

    This is outstanding work for us consumers to make enlighted choices, for free !
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  42. #342
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    If I can use a dozen points on two aerial photos, hundreds of square miles in area, and georeference them to within a meter and a very low RMSE, I'm fairly certain someone can use AutoCAD to import a high resolution picture of a bicycle and do the exact same thing.

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  43. #343
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    How much precision is really relevant for a riding experience, when 80% of users aren't even going to be running the same tire pressures, sag, or even know where the compression and rebound dials are at? The variation in final values is small, the shape of the curves is quite accurate (big picture) to compare types of frames, and to be completely honest things like tire choice, tire pressure, quality of wheel build, mass of rider relative to the bike - will all make a bigger difference than the small differences caused by being a pixel or two off on importing those into a kinematics package.

    Considering that images at least acceptable to use as specification comparison tools on websites are at least 1200x900px, this really is going to be adequate for making generalizations about how a bike might perform, but again it's still a case of there being more to how a bike handles than one number, or even a handful of numbers.

  44. #344
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    Well, I finally picked up my next bike- a new turquiose Yeti 4.5 frame and fork. I still need to figure out the build and wheels but this should be about as good a climbing bike as I can get, and very trail focused. I can hardly wait to build it up but need to wait a bit anyway, due to some scary expenses coming up soon. Still, I figured if I wanted too long to buy the frame/fork, I may not buy it this year so I just took the plunge yesterday. It is not going to be easy looking at that frame all bare.

  45. #345
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    I used the linkage blog pages to decide on my latest FS bike, a ~4" racing rig. I ended up with a DW link, but it didn't have to be a DW link. Analyzing the kinematics showed that quite a few bikes had around 100% or slightly more anti-squat throughout a significant portion of the travel (as opposed to a steeply falling curve that only has it at the sag point), it's not just limited to the DW link. It's not about the specific suspension type, but whether the bike blends your requirements of geometry, suspension performance, efficiency. pricing, and so on. As an example, Rocky Mountain is doing something interesting with the new element, making a horst-link that has a flat high anti-squat curve like the canfield riot, or evil the following, except it has a very progressive leverage ratio, which means when coupled with an air shock, which is by itself very progressive in nature, this will lead to extremely progressive suspension which is most likely harsh over most significant bumps/choppy terrain. It should pedal well, but it appears to be designed for a coil shock. You are forced to make a compromise that you don't have to make on other bikes with the same amount of travel. Most modern air-shock-equipped bikes should become flat or slightly regressive at the end of travel, to compensate for the air shock ramping up. It's getting a little bit into the weeds, but IMO not every company and bike out there is decent in all areas. Some are mostly good, but leave out one key point, or some are just kind of ok in all areas, some are just total **** shows where it looks like they threw a bunch on the wall and tried to see what would stick, and still others, I assume, are good bikes

    Point is, it can be very useful, and it's probably about the most "removed from marketing" data out there, as far as suspension. One quick trip around the marketing departments/adds/websites for many of the mainstream and popular boutique manufacturers sets off all kinds of red flags to me, ones that maybe others wouldn't know to question, but the linkage analysis "deconstructs" the bike and gives you the real breakdown.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  46. #346
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    I've learned a lot about suspension and from the linked videos from the guy in Portugal.

    But I to am left with the assumption that lots of AS throughout the first part of the travel (maybe 60%?) and a totally linear curve makes the most sense, since most of us run air shocks. So for a bike used on trails, I'd want to choose a linear curve to match the air shocks, but if I can ever swing that dedicated downhill bike I'd choose a bike with a progressive curve and mount up a coil shock.

    What I don't really get is the term "pedal kickback" and also "chain growth". And if you have lots of anti-squat, is increased pedal kickback just standard just part of the trade off? How does the chain grow? Is this because the wheel moves backwards when hitting bumps and so the top section of chain yanks the pedals backwards?

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I've learned a lot about suspension and from the linked videos from the guy in Portugal.

    But I to am left with the assumption that lots of AS throughout the first part of the travel (maybe 60%?) and a totally linear curve makes the most sense, since most of us run air shocks. So for a bike used on trails, I'd want to choose a linear curve to match the air shocks, but if I can ever swing that dedicated downhill bike I'd choose a bike with a progressive curve and mount up a coil shock.

    What I don't really get is the term "pedal kickback" and also "chain growth". And if you have lots of anti-squat, is increased pedal kickback just standard just part of the trade off? How does the chain grow? Is this because the wheel moves backwards when hitting bumps and so the top section of chain yanks the pedals backwards?
    Essentially yes, there are some tutorials on all of the parameters, so maybe keep searching. A little bit of kickback/growth isn't a big deal, it's within the "noise" of hub engagement which means your pedals are kind of free to move about a bit, so just because it has some doesn't mean it'll be like a jackhammer. Go look at the older Orange bikes, which use the old mid/high pivot single-pivot design, these go absolutely nuts with the AS and chain growth later in the travel, going to 200% or more. That's where you're going to get some pretty bad jackhammer traits IME (riding bikes with similar pivot points). There's a lot more than can affect the suspension, like leverage ratio, the shock damping, etc. In my riding and testing, I agree that there's a "sweet spot" of AS where you get enough to make the pedaling significantly better, but you avoid pedal kickback. The bike rides "higher" than other designs in the rough that tend to "bog down" when they encounter bumps uphill, because those bikes with significantly less than 100% through the travel will cause your pedal strokes to shift your weight rearward, compress the rear suspension, require even more power to maintain forward velocity, and IMO give the effect of using "more" travel on bumps uphill than the bike would use just coasting over the same sized stuff downhill. This creates a "digging in" effect that some people prefer, as it increases traction beyond what would be normal, but IMO it has the double-edged sword of bogging you down at the same time and unweighting the front. But go too high with AS and you'll start losing traction because of it, as the pedal strokes will interfere with bump absorption, you'll spin out more uphill, especially on stuff that isn't necessarily very technically challenging. Just like the bikes that have less than 100% at the sag point, there aren't many left that have way more than 100% AS through the travel, so the big debate obviously is, should you have 100% (so it counters 100% of the rearward weight shift) through a good deal of the travel? IMO for consistent pedaling traits during g-outs, different pack weights, body positions, rear sucking up bumps, etc., yes, but there are good debates on this and some people say they can feel the rear end "hanging up", but is this because of the shock, leverage ratio, anti-squat, or just having 100% as opposed to that "digging in" feeling I mentioned above?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  48. #348
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    Hang up can be from too much antisquat, but anything that is 90-100% should track fine on technical climbs. The shock can cause hang up as well if it has too much platform.

  49. #349
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    I have Linkage Design and I've modeled couple of bikes. It is really easy to do. What is important, is that when I take several pictures of the same bike - different size, quality, etc. I end up with very similar results. Some graphs might be 5% higher or lower, but the shape of the curves and overall positioning is quite stable. I'm convinced that this is useful tool.

    The program allows you to select your own bikes for comparison, select the gearing that you want to use and also lets you enter your CoG - this has big impact on anti-squat numbers.

    I've included the comparison the three bikes I'm considering - all in climbing gear.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-banshee-phantom-try2_anti-squat.png  


  50. #350
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    I have owned a lot of diff bikes but not the latest gen of that JS-Tuned VPP. Overall, DWL pedals very well, VPP pedals well, some need more platform, but the worst-pedaling bike (esp on uphills) was my Lenz Behemoth. That was a dog. It was a bit small so I used a setback post which must have made the rearward bias worse. I probably should have tried a large with a regular post but all I wanted to do was get rid of it after a couple of months. Good geo but it was always sluggish when pointed uphill.

  51. #351
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    My canfield bikes pedal like a dream. The old gt I drive 5 did a amazing job as well, just creaked like hell and felt strange on the DH sections with the bottom bracket moving around. I was not a fan of VPP, dw on my ibis was eh, ok at best. And linkage activated single pivot on my cannondale did pretty well with a good shock. My FSR bikes...... well I'm not sure if I will ever own another big S wallow bike. Even though people swear by them.

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  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I used the linkage blog pages to decide on my latest FS bike, a ~4" racing rig. I ended up with a DW link, but it didn't have to be a DW link. Analyzing the kinematics showed that quite a few bikes had around 100% or slightly more anti-squat throughout a significant portion of the travel (as opposed to a steeply falling curve that only has it at the sag point), it's not just limited to the DW link. It's not about the specific suspension type, but whether the bike blends your requirements of geometry, suspension performance, efficiency. pricing, and so on. As an example, Rocky Mountain is doing something interesting with the new element, making a horst-link that has a flat high anti-squat curve like the canfield riot, or evil the following, except it has a very progressive leverage ratio, which means when coupled with an air shock, which is by itself very progressive in nature, this will lead to extremely progressive suspension which is most likely harsh over most significant bumps/choppy terrain. It should pedal well, but it appears to be designed for a coil shock. You are forced to make a compromise that you don't have to make on other bikes with the same amount of travel. Most modern air-shock-equipped bikes should become flat or slightly regressive at the end of travel, to compensate for the air shock ramping up. It's getting a little bit into the weeds, but IMO not every company and bike out there is decent in all areas. Some are mostly good, but leave out one key point, or some are just kind of ok in all areas, some are just total **** shows where it looks like they threw a bunch on the wall and tried to see what would stick, and still others, I assume, are good bikes

    Point is, it can be very useful, and it's probably about the most "removed from marketing" data out there, as far as suspension. One quick trip around the marketing departments/adds/websites for many of the mainstream and popular boutique manufacturers sets off all kinds of red flags to me, ones that maybe others wouldn't know to question, but the linkage analysis "deconstructs" the bike and gives you the real breakdown.
    Think you are clueless. Look at rocky mountain element sag point at the table , look at the curve sag point and compare. Look at variability anti-squat at different cog sizes. You are certainly not the engineer. This curve does not look right for numbers provided in the table

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark85 View Post
    Think you are clueless. Look at rocky mountain element sag point at the table , look at the curve sag point and compare. Look at variability anti-squat at different cog sizes. You are certainly not the engineer. This curve does not look right for numbers provided in the table
    Yes, AS does vary with cog sizes, however, you can get a pretty good idea based on the numbers provided, say you were going to use a 32x42, you can interpolate and get within a few percentage points usually. DW has said himself that it's possible to get these traits out of the horst link, just that no one usually does it. It appears with the RM, they had to sacrifice the leverage ratio to get it. The AS at the sag point doesn't tell you how the curve will be shaped. Click on the link and read the comments for the Element.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, AS does vary with cog sizes, however, you can get a pretty good idea based on the graphs. DW has said himself that it's possible to get these traits out of the horst link, just that no one usually does it. It appears with the RM, they had to sacrifice the leverage ratio to get it. The AS at the sag point doesn't tell you how the curve will be shaped. Click on the link and read the comments for the Element.
    Sorry Jayem not try to be mean or anything but you are still not looking at the graph and the table. They simply do not mach. On the graph 25% anti-sag is at 98% for 42 cog, in the table 94%. So it looks like this graph is mess in the first place. Variability of anti-squad with cog size and anti-squat in general at 28T chain ring is very similar to bikes like Specialized Camber or Norco Revolver. Element and Revolver have the same anti-squad at 25% sag while looking at the number from table. Bikes like Norco Optic have very progressive shock and the same type of suspension but they do not come even close to anti-squad curve like Element. I do not have any proof to say this curve it impossible but it maybe mistake in graphing as well. People can comment whatever they want.This is Internet. It does no mean they all have knowledge and understanding.

  55. #355
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    Nuff said, 29er and 27+


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  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark85 View Post
    Sorry Jayem not try to be mean or anything but you are still not looking at the graph and the table. They simply do not mach. On the graph 25% anti-sag is at 98% for 42 cog, in the table 94%. So it looks like this graph is mess in the first place. Variability of anti-squad with cog size and anti-squat in general at 28T chain ring is very similar to bikes like Specialized Camber or Norco Revolver. Element and Revolver have the same anti-squad at 25% sag while looking at the number from table. Bikes like Norco Optic have very progressive shock and the same type of suspension but they do not come even close to anti-squad curve like Element. I do not have any proof to say this curve it impossible but it maybe mistake in graphing as well. People can comment whatever they want.This is Internet. It does no mean they all have knowledge and understanding.
    You might want to leave a message for him, he may have simply mislabled the gearing or entered a number slightly off in the boxes, I've noticed he sometimes uses different gearing for the graph than in the boxes, to give a "most common gear" vs. "the range". It's off a couple percentage points, so that would be my guess. Does that invalidate everything he does? I don't think so.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  57. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You might want to leave a message for him, he may have simply mislabled the gearing or entered a number slightly off in the boxes, I've noticed he sometimes uses different gearing for the graph than in the boxes, to give a "most common gear" vs. "the range". It's off a couple percentage points, so that would be my guess. Does that invalidate everything he does? I don't think so.
    Yeah, it kind of does really. If he mislabels his charts what else is not paying full attention to? He's already making a best guess, less than precise estimation. Lack of attention to detail on top of it makes it me even more leery.

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  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yeah, it kind of does really. If he mislabels his charts what else is not paying full attention to? He's already making a best guess, less than precise estimation. Lack of attention to detail on top of it makes it me even more leery.

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    High AS (upward slope) horst link Linkage Design: Switchback

    Relatively flat AS curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Transition

    High AS and flat curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Avanti Cycles

    Low AS (except if you use a granny ring 2x setup) flat curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Bixs Bikes

    You seem to be of the opinion that the suspension traits are impossible? Yes, I don't believe the entirety of the testing is invalid, comparing it against other analysis of the same bikes, it looks like it holds up pretty well. Yes, possible there's isolated user error, but I'm not going to invalidate everything because of that, again, this is physics. It really really sounds like you should leave him a message on this particular bike? (he has comment boxes for you).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    High AS (upward slope) horst link Linkage Design: Switchback

    Relatively flat AS curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Transition

    High AS and flat curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Avanti Cycles

    Low AS (except if you use a granny ring 2x setup) flat curve horst link
    Linkage Design: Bixs Bikes

    You seem to be of the opinion that the suspension traits are impossible? Yes, I don't believe the entirety of the testing is invalid, comparing it against other analysis of the same bikes, it looks like it holds up pretty well. Yes, possible there's isolated user error, but I'm not going to invalidate everything because of that, again, this is physics. It really really sounds like you should leave him a message on this particular bike? (he has comment boxes for you).
    No, I don't think any of this is impossible. Yes, it is physics. However, he is unable to get precise measurements. Sure, the shape of the curve may be close. However, as a tall, broad shouldered person I care more about the shape. I need to see what the forces actually are. Otherwise I end up making compromises with the rear shock. That's where he's going to be the most inaccurate.

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  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, I don't think any of this is impossible. Yes, it is physics. However, he is unable to get precise measurements. Sure, the shape of the curve may be close. However, as a tall, broad shouldered person I care more about the shape. I need to see what the forces actually are. Otherwise I end up making compromises with the rear shock. That's where he's going to be the most inaccurate.

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    Tucker give it up, they are internet experts.

    You should read the thread where they go after Brian of Tantrum cycles- basically fall short of calling Brian a liar about his design based on that amazingly accurate analysis.

    Yet amazingly the people that have actually ridden the bike say it does just what Brian claims.
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  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Tucker give it up, they are internet experts.

    You should read the thread where they go after Brian of Tantrum cycles- basically fall short of calling Brian a liar about his design based on that amazingly accurate analysis.

    Yet amazingly the people that have actually ridden the bike say it does just what Brian claims.
    Actually, they predicted the performance on ridemonkey rather well without super accurate info, right down to a few issues with the suspension and leverage ratio that were reported in the ride reports. This didn't make Brian all that happy, but again, it's physics. Brian really didn't want to let that info out for some reason, but again, you can't really hide anything these days, it's not magic.

    I'll post the analysis for you later today.

    You've been quite defensive, buyers remorse?

  62. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Actually, they predicted the performance on ridemonkey rather well without super accurate info, right down to a few issues with the suspension and leverage ratio that were reported in the ride reports. This didn't make Brian all that happy, but again, it's physics. Brian really didn't want to let that info out for some reason, but again, you can't really hide anything these days, it's not magic.

    I'll post the analysis for you later today.

    You've been quite defensive, buyers remorse?
    Jayem, you know that statement is full of ********. Vrock and Hmcleay both predicted behaviour that is far from reality. When I called them on the condradictions in their own analysis, they both bailed and resorted to name calling and funny meme.

    If you want to claim that, bring up their "true predictions" and any correlation to them by any of the reviews.

    I'm not happy that they represent themselves as professionals and pass off pretty graphs as meaningful knowledge, while trying to promote themselves as experts and arbiters of all things suspension

  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Actually, they predicted the performance on ridemonkey rather well without super accurate info, right down to a few issues with the suspension and leverage ratio that were reported in the ride reports. This didn't make Brian all that happy, but again, it's physics. Brian really didn't want to let that info out for some reason, but again, you can't really hide anything these days, it's not magic.

    I'll post the analysis for you later today.

    You've been quite defensive, buyers remorse?
    Not defensive, just old enough to have been around a lot of self professed 'experts' to know a lot of people talk a lot of shit and don't know what they hell they're talking about.

    Link to the ride reports you're referring to, because the ones I've seen and the people I've communicated don't jive with what you're saying.

    I like how you somehow think Brian can control what gets out and needs to. He's going out and wants people to ride it- yup sounds like someone that wants to hide things.
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  64. #364
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    It just got heavy in here.....


    So I like bikes. Some 29ers are fun. Some suck! I had a old hard trail than handled like a bus. Glad most of that is fixed with geo these days.
    Blah blah blah, bikes are fun......Blah blah blah, we disagree on Sram vs Shimano....blah blah blah, Dw is better the No W.....OK, lets have a beer and talk about bikes MOAR.

  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    It just got heavy in here.....


    So I like bikes. Some 29ers are fun. Some suck! I had a old hard trail than handled like a bus. Glad most of that is fixed with geo these days.
    Blah blah blah, bikes are fun......Blah blah blah, we disagree on Sram vs Shimano....blah blah blah, Dw is better the No W.....OK, lets have a beer and talk about bikes MOAR.
    My eyes were glazing over. Yes, we need the tech geeks, but we all know what is important is how the purchaser feels about his or her bike. My Switchblade is
    1. Too heavy
    2. Too stiff
    3. Too expensive
    4. Pedals like a dog
    5. Has crappy geo
    6. BB is too low

    And I'm too stupid to realize the mistake I've made.


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  66. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    It just got heavy in here.....
    Its the I am right you are wrong macho egos at work :-) lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post

    I'll post the analysis for you later today.
    I would prefer you post it in a different thread, if you really want to revisit it.

    I read this thread to see what people are saying about this category, not to rehash that.

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    Jayem is your resident party-killer. Just come to terms that he's smarter than you and then continue riding whatever bike you choose.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Jayem, you know that statement is full of ********. Vrock and Hmcleay both predicted behaviour that is far from reality. When I called them on the condradictions in their own analysis, they both bailed and resorted to name calling and funny meme.

    If you want to claim that, bring up their "true predictions" and any correlation to them by any of the reviews.

    I'm not happy that they represent themselves as professionals and pass off pretty graphs as meaningful knowledge, while trying to promote themselves as experts and arbiters of all things suspension
    And here you go:

    RideMonkey How To Series: Throwing a Tantrum in Public | Page 2 | Ridemonkey Forums

    With Kona Magic Link, the axle path has two degrees of freedom (2dof), and therefore the axle can move within a 'window' of travel. It needs (and has) two independent springs/dampers to control this.

    On the Tantrum Meltdown, the axle path is governed by a 6-bar linkage. Therefore, the axle path has one degree of freedom (1dof), and can only move along a single pre-determined axle path. It only needs (and only has) one spring/damper.

    I find a lot of the marketing literature on this bike misleading.
    For example, in the video where he removes the shock bolt, it also completely removes one of the pivots necessary to govern the axle path.
    Then, with that bolt removed, goes on to demonstrate how the "missing link can respond to horizontal forces - forward for pedalling, rearward for bump..." To me it seems like he's trying to imply that the axle path can move horizontally as well as vertically (which it can't, because it's a 1dof system).

    As I always say with complicated suspension systems, regardless of the physical configuration, the Leverage Ratio, Anti-Squat, and Anti-Rise curves will describe the suspension behaviour. There is no 'magic' going on that can't be modelled in Linkage, it's just physics.

    To me, the simplest explanation would be something like: "The axle path is initially sharply rearward, which then becomes more vertical after around 10%-20% travel. This causes the suspension to extend into 'climbing mode' under hard pedalling efforts". No mention of 'magic' required.

    Vrock's explanation on mtbr sums it up nicely:
    Vrock on mtbr.com said:
    If you are pedalling slowly, the bike it's going to stay around sag like any other bike and work the same as any other bike with 120% of Anti-squat. If you start pedalling really hard it's going to extend, top out, and stay there for a while, because that LR (combined with that AS Curve) works "as a trap" for the rear wheel. If you hit something and you keep going the bike it's not going to absorb the bump, but I think that there is an instinct to relax a bit when you hit something really big, if that happens the suspension can react to the bump.
    The only other thing I would add to this, is that because the AS curve is decreasing so steeply near top out, it means when you are pedalling hard in this zone (e.g. climbing), it would significantly reduce the overall wheel rate.
    And since the wheel rate is ridiculously high near top out, hard pedalling in this zone would bring the overall wheel rate down to more reasonable levels (perhaps even enough to be able to absorb an impact if you encounter one while pedalling hard).
    However, when cornering/pumping/jumping etc, the initially very high wheel rate would surely make it incredibly harsh each time you make contact with the ground.
    Also, if it's intended to be at sag for coasting, and at top-out for pedalling, you're going to be dealing with a ton of chassis movement each time you get on the gas.

    Lelandjt said: ↑
    I was intrigued by the Kona Magic Link but never got to check one out. Above I saw one 1 line review. Anyone else have experience with it and want to give a more in depth report? So this bike has a shitty shock rate? If that was changed is there any reason the concept couldn't work? The idea of changing the shock rate based on chain torque seems to me like a good idea if the change is seamless
    The shitty shock rate on this bike is necessary for it to hold itself up at top-out position when pedalling, which appears to be the intent of the design.
    More in response to Tantrum Cycles:
    You completely miss the point of modern trail bikes. They are not long travel xc rigs. Also you are completely wrong about DH bikes. Pedaling is actually very important in DH bikes, hell it even wins races.


    Going back to the trailbike. The majority of the population climbs so they can ride down. Your bike features horrible leverage curve that compromises downhill performance for slight uphill gains. I congratulate you on thinking up something original and finding a clever solution to a problem. Unfortunately it's not a real problem for most of us. You behave like most current bikes pedal horribely. It's not 1999 so they don't. They pedal quite decent and you won't feel pedal bob unless you pedal in some bizzare way. You also miss what people want. I know you won't believe me but think about the most liked trailbikes in recent years. For many years people have been praising specialized trailbikes (The Pitch, Sumpjumper, Enduro) yet they pedal worse than 90% of their competition. Overall people don't think about suspension on the uphills unless they pedal really bad and there are almost no such bikes anymore since it's not 1999. Again I congratulate you on building a bike that works for you. I just doubt some of your marketing claims as I see some compromises many riders won't be happy with even when a large majority of them wont notice the same way they didn't notice the bad early degressive leverage curves on Santa Cruz bikes.

    PS. Is Vrock's aproximation of your leverage curve even slightly true? is it degressive in the first part of travel? Because if yes then your claims about small bump absorption are simply false. I'd rather have have some LSC (which is still needed for stability on the ride down and I also use it on my never pedal dh bike) than a suspension system that can't overcome seal stiction

    PS2. @Udi I assume this might be relevant to your interests.
    @Tantrum Cycles
    If you want to read about leverage curve digression and how it plays with current air spring curves (which have been accurately mapped on current products, and thus can be used in leverage curve design and analysis effectively) there are some of my posts below on the topic - particularly with regard to traction losses on bikes with low initial leverage values.

    http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threa..../#post-4034222

    http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threa..../#post-4034461

    New downhillers trail bike | Ridemonkey Forums

    New downhillers trail bike | Page 2 | Ridemonkey Forums

    I have no intention of debating these facts in this thread with you, however I think you might find them interesting. I mean no offence at all - just trying to share something that might be useful, and elaborates on some of the digression vs. traction issues that hmcleay very correctly points out above. It also covers the fact that *less* digression or a flat leverage curve in the first 1/3 of travel is *not* a good thing (it's just "less bad") - and from this you can extrapolate why we've pointed out that small inaccuracies in plotting your frame don't mean that problem areas identified are magically reversed.

    Unfortunately the 2nd thread is a very good example of what happens when people want to argue and water down sufficiently accurate data instead of taking the information on board and moving on.

    I think your design puts great emphasis on acceleration performance (which isn't necessarily an optimal implementation anyway) at the cost of optimal bump absorption - and given that this is the DH forum you'll find that people (including me) are much more interested in prioritising the latter.

    Trailbikes need to be good at both, while also being very lightweight - and believe it or not, once you've correctly optimised a trailbike design for the optimal LR curve and AS curve at a competitive frame weight (which limits complexity), there isn't a whole lot of freedom for variations in design. If there are large variations there are often large compromises to go with that.

    As a sidenote (re: one of your earlier comments) frames should work well with existing shocks. Current technology is great (current air shocks are very good, current coil shocks are excellent), and minor nonlinearities can be very effectively corrected with LR curve design. Consumers also prefer to use standard existing parts which is why many proprietary shocks have faded into history.

    Finally, I think Harry Barnowl makes some really good suggestions for you. Like you've probably now established, plenty of people here live and breathe this stuff - entering into heated debate is not productive for your company or this forum. A lot of these topics have been covered in great detail if you use the search function, and a lot of the questions you pose have been argued and concluded on multiple times.

    When it comes to Linkage inaccuracy, at this point it's a case of "put up or shut up". An analysis of your frame has been done - you can either sit here and verbally debate it for another 14 pages (which no one is going to believe), or you can publish a blueprint with your own analysis and let someone verify it. I personally don't think anyone here has any interest in stealing your design - but if you don't provide actual proof of your claimed inaccuracies then no one here is magically going to take your word for it. Feel free to not do that in the interests of "protecting your work" - just don't simultaneously expect people to believe your unverified claims on this topic if that's the route you take.

    Again - this is not a stab at you or your work and I mean no disrespect - just some logical information that might be useful and a few suggestions.
    Hi Brian,

    I’m not sure if you actually read my post #325 (page 9), but we’re in agreement here. The Total Wheel Force graph posted shows that under hard acceleration (climbing), the Wheel Force curve becomes pretty much flat in the zone between 10-50mm travel. This means under these conditions, the wheel can pretty much occupy any position in this zone without any resistance (except its movement is still damped by the shock). This is very unique behaviour, and the best way I can think to describe this is ‘floppy’.

    I didn’t mean ‘floppy’ in a bad way, it’s just a difficult characteristic to describe. As the force curve flattens out, it means that the wheel rate (which is already relatively low to begin with) reduces significantly even becoming zero (or even slightly negative – wrap that around your head!). There’s no argument from anyone that a lower wheel rate increases traction, since the wheel can follow the terrain perfectly with very little resistance to movement. It is the ultimate in compliance under acceleration.

    This is something I have been banging on about for years (although you and I are utilising this characteristic in opposite ways). You might not be interested in looking at it in relation to the AS and LR curves (if you want to do it by FBD’s then that’s your prerogative), but the slope of the AS curve is as important (if not more important) than the actual AS value.

    AS value determines the wheel force (and hence the suspension position) under acceleration, AS slope determines the wheel rate.

    The high AS value of your suspension tells me that it will extent under hard acceleration (as you claim), and your steeply decreasing AS curve tells me straight away that your suspension will be very compliant under acceleration, due to the effect on wheel rate. Apologies if that was not made clear in my post #325.

    Maybe you’re not referring to me in the above quote, but I don’t think anyone here has suggested that your bike will not provide enough compliance for good traction due to the high AS value. And in my analysis of your design in post #325, I agreed that the wheel CAN instantly react to bumps when climbing.

    So maybe you need to re-read post #325, and re-think this:
    Tantrum Cycles said: ↑
    And that's what has this forum in a tizzy. None of the engineers here have been able to understand how this can happen, or even believe that it CAN happen, so it is easier to discredit it.
    And this:
    Tantrum Cycles said: ↑
    Correct me if I'm wrong

    It is indeed my competitors that have posted the bad data and claimed it was accurate enough to completely dismiss my claims as pure BS of the highest degree, despite videos showing otherwise. Many others have jumped on that data as "proof", which is unfortunate, but they are not the originators.

    I usually try and end these posts on a positive note, but I’m struggling to find something here. You seem to be interpreting these posts differently from what is actually written.

    I’m certainly not out here to put down your design, my analysis confirms all the climbing characterics you describe, and I’m happy to revisit my comment about the suspension extending under hard acceleration when going downhill, as soon as the ‘real’ numbers become available.
    However I do have problem with people who think their suspension design defies the laws of physics, exhibiting some sort of behaviour that isn’t shown on the AS and LR (and AR) curves. It’s these people who are seemingly intent on maintaining a ‘cloud of secrecy’ about suspension design, so they can regurgitate the same design every few years with a new acronym.

    If I had it my way, every bike consumer would be savvy enough to interpret AS and LR (and AR) curves, so that bike designers are forced to think outside the box (AS YOU HAVE DONE) to create something innovative. In case you missed it, this is a compliment.


    Tantrum Cycles said: ↑
    1) vrock, the original poster of bad data and most vehement in his arguments, has a bicycle linkage design blog with his bike designs heavily on display.
    I wasn’t aware that @Vrock designed any of the bikes displayed on his website, can you tell me which ones?

    Tantrum Cycles said: ↑
    2) hmcleay, next up, also has a website to inform the world of his knowledge of bicycle suspension. He has been known to design bikes, sell them, and seek licensees. Interestingly, he also seems to have contributed to the Linkage software, promotes it and vrock promotes himself on hmcleays' website.
    Maybe that’s a typo or something, but there’s nothing about @Vrock on my website.

    Regards,
    Hugh McLeay
    And this gem:

    Is there a rule against multiple accounts? @Sandwich

    "Axa" and "Aye" are both just Tantrum Cycles (Brian) which is plainly obvious to anyone who checked out those accounts when they were registered. Axa has been going through disliking my posts in this thread today (along with others posts who said anything against Brian), but I noticed both accounts earlier - just thought it'd be wise to live and let live instead of beating a dead horse. Unfortunately it would seem the horse isn't dead.

    I think an admin should step in and delete his array of fake accounts, and consider banning if he keeps making duplicate accounts. Ridemonkey between its banter is a good center of technical discussion for an international audience and the last thing it needs (in my opinion) is a one-man-army of retardation diluting its waters.

    The fact that the fradulence is so obvious speaks volumes about the company, but to anyone who could read curves of spring / squat / leverage, these are volumes which have already been read.
    Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the ride reports where the Tantrum leverage ratio was validated based on the suspension behavior. The big point was that acceleration and efficiency are important as well as seemless operation of the system between pedaling and not/descending, but bump absorption is highly dependent on leverage ratio, which Brian isn't forthcoming with, but which can be approximated based on the diagrams/pictures, and there were ride reports backing up the conclusions about the leverage ratios.

    More good reading:
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...

    The conclusion of which is, "my suspension is so good, it's impossible for anyone else to know why it works!", to which several people were able to analyze it and explain exactly why it works, at which point, Brian started flying off the handle. Good entertainment for all!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Jayem is your resident party-killer. Just come to terms that he's smarter than you and then continue riding whatever bike you choose.
    You are the same guy that swore up and down about how your mono-pivot single pivot bike was the best thing ever since sliced bread, no? Locomoto if I remember correctly? Were we right that it was simply a "what you have is the best you know" situation? I still remember that and it's in the archives. I've seen you on linkage bike after linkage bike ever since...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    And here you go:

    RideMonkey How To Series: Throwing a Tantrum in Public | Page 2 | Ridemonkey Forums



    More in response to Tantrum Cycles:






    And this gem:



    Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the ride reports where the Tantrum leverage ratio was validated based on the suspension behavior. The big point was that acceleration and efficiency are important as well as seemless operation of the system between pedaling and not/descending, but bump absorption is highly dependent on leverage ratio, which Brian isn't forthcoming with, but which can be approximated based on the diagrams/pictures, and there were ride reports backing up the conclusions about the leverage ratios.

    More good reading:
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...

    The conclusion of which is, "my suspension is so good, it's impossible for anyone else to know why it works!", to which several people were able to analyze it and explain exactly why it works, at which point, Brian started flying off the handle. Good entertainment for all!
    So after this wall of text it comes down to some internet engineers modeled a system without actual measurements and said it ride in manner A while Brian says it rides in manner B.

    You can't find the 'reviews' that say it rides in manner A while I have no problem finding several that say it rides in manner B.


    Maybe I should throw in a bunch of big words in there to spice it up a little.
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  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    My eyes were glazing over. Yes, we need the tech geeks, but we all know what is important is how the purchaser feels about his or her bike. My Switchblade is
    1. Too heavy
    2. Too stiff
    3. Too expensive
    4. Pedals like a dog
    5. Has crappy geo
    6. BB is too low

    And I'm too stupid to realize the mistake I've made.


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    "Stupid is what stupid does"

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    I am also in Dr.Don's camp.....heck my bikes are worth more than my cars. That puts me at a different level of dumb.

  73. #373
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    Tldr.

    My salsa horsethief /pony rustler is a pretty sweet trail rig, definitely suggest demoing one in 29r mode🚲

  74. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post

    And this gem:

    Is there a rule against multiple accounts? @Sandwich

    "Axa" and "Aye" are both just Tantrum Cycles (Brian) which is plainly obvious to anyone who checked out those accounts when they were registered. Axa has been going through disliking my posts in this thread today (along with others posts who said anything against Brian), but I noticed both accounts earlier - just thought it'd be wise to live and let live instead of beating a dead horse. Unfortunately it would seem the horse isn't dead.

    I think an admin should step in and delete his array of fake accounts, and consider banning if he keeps making duplicate accounts. Ridemonkey between its banter is a good center of technical discussion for an international audience and the last thing it needs (in my opinion) is a one-man-army of retardation diluting its waters.

    The fact that the fradulence is so obvious speaks volumes about the company, but to anyone who could read curves of spring / squat / leverage, these are volumes which have already been read.
    Ahem, Mr Jayem, speaking of multiple user names, by any chance are you Jm? on ridemonkey?

    Do you think you should point out that, in fact, I DO NOT have multiple accounts or user names? As accused by the paranoia inflicted monkeys?

    Axa and Aye are both mtbr contributors. Axa is a customer, though I 've never met him. Aye is a demo rider and future customer (I hope). They dared post their comments on RM and all of a sudden I'm making up alternate personalities and fake reviews.

    Very meaningful contribution to the technical discussion. Is it necessary for you to slander me personally by implying I am making up fake accounts?

  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Ahem, Mr Jayem, speaking of multiple user names, by any chance are you Jm? on ridemonkey?

    Do you think you should point out that, in fact, I DO NOT have multiple accounts or user names? As accused by the paranoia inflicted monkeys?

    Axa and Aye are both mtbr contributors. Axa is a customer, though I 've never met him. Aye is a demo rider and future customer (I hope). They dared post their comments on RM and all of a sudden I'm making up alternate personalities and fake reviews.

    Very meaningful contribution to the technical discussion. Is it necessary for you to slander me personally by implying I am making up fake accounts?
    To further that, I'm pretty sure that Aye and I demo'd bikes in the same place on the same day, and in fact, at the same time, with him following me around, and Brian riding his (Aye's) bike since they're similar size, and I'm a mutant gorilla.

    I'm not one to go around blowing my own horn, but in Brian's defense:

    I've ridden his bike, it does what it claims. The suspension, what it looks like, and how it moves, doesn't really start to make sense until you RIDE it, and you can look down and watch it while you ride. I haven't bothered to look at numbers for it. I honestly don't know if there's another linkage somewhere that posts similar numbers, and accordingly should ride similarly - though, I doubt it, because frankly, I've never seen a linkage like this. I'm sure there are things out there with rates that compare, and all that. So, that said, I'm really a pretty smart guy. That might be why I was a little skeptical prior to riding the bike. But I also approached the situation with an open mind, which I've been told is another sign of intellect.

    So often we see various bits of advice thrown around online when someone asks about a bike. I understand leverage ratios and all manner of things involved in suspension design - not only am I reasonably intelligent, I'm also an engineer. That aside, I've never picked a bike out based only on looking at numbers. There's something about riding a bike that makes all the numbers sort of fungible after all. That's why the greatest advice given regarding choosing a bike, and the most often repeated advice, is ride a bunch of stuff, choose what you like. If this was all a numbers game, the best bike could be designed with a slide rule, and either all bikes would be alike, but vary in size, or we'd just have one really lucky person making the best bike in the world, and everyone else playing second fiddle. But since perception is involved, and people are unique in their wants and desires, there are, in reality a LOT of good bikes, because different stuff suits different people better.

    Physics? Indeed. If they're hard and fast rules, and all the internet experts have figured out how the ML works, and Brian is in fact a liar in spite of the reviews from the people who have ridden his bike, then I'll be a liar too. But there's a possibility that all the internet engineers are wrong, and in that case, maybe Brian is the latter individual in my previous example, and everyone else is officially playing second fiddle.

  76. #376
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    Jayem- so you're saying back in 2009 Brian created Axa so that he could post about his new design 6 years later= god he is a genius.
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  77. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Jayem- so you're saying back in 2009 Brian created Axa so that he could post about his new design 6 years later= god he is a genius.
    There is a Hot Tub time machine....why not a Mountain Bike time machine?

  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    There is a Hot Tub time machine....why not a Mountain Bike time machine?
    I'm watching that movie now!


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    Enjoy the ride...

  79. #379
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    I actually read that entire thread on ride monkey. It reiterated my position that not a majority, not many, but way too many bicyclists are completely full of themselves, egotistical, judgemental, douches. I see it at the XC riding spots, and I see it on the forums.

    Brian simply answered the questions, even after being attacked many times. They didn't like the answers, nor were they willing to do a ride review to try to validate their feelings (note feelings not true data), so they just attacked.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I actually read that entire thread on ride monkey. It reiterated my position that not a majority, not many, but way too many bicyclists are completely full of themselves, egotistical, judgemental, douches. I see it at the XC riding spots, and I see it on the forums.

    Brian simply answered the questions, even after being attacked many times. They didn't like the answers, nor were they willing to do a ride review to try to validate their feelings (note feelings not true data), so they just attacked.
    The part I find the most amusing- I don't see a single FS design from a single one of the internet engineers in production. Brain has already proven he knows what he's doing.
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  81. #381
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    Buy a Yeti.
    Ride your Yeti.
    Enjoy your Yeti.

    Best 29'er period: SB5.5
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  82. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    The part I find the most amusing- I don't see a single FS design from a single one of the internet engineers in production. Brain has already proven he knows what he's doing.
    It seems like you've invested in his kickstarter based your your comments, so I get the fanboy aspect you are coming from, but tell me, how many people are riding his frames right now (not demos, owners)? They may be good, but the point on RM and other threads was that pedaling efficiency is only one part of a bike, suspension and bump absorption are others, and there are many other facets as well. Some of these factors remain to be seen with his bikes.
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  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    Buy a Yeti.
    Ride your Yeti.
    Enjoy your Yeti.

    Best 29'er period: SB5.5
    They are very nice bikes. I do like the whole "Tribe" aspect of yeti owners.

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  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    Buy a Yeti.
    Ride your Yeti.
    Enjoy your Yeti.

    Best 29'er period: SB5.5
    Sure, give me 20mm longer reach and shave 1k€ from the price and it would be a dream bike.
    Don't be mad, I'm totally n00b-ish.

  85. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by niplo View Post
    Sure, give me 20mm longer reach and shave 1k€ from the price and it would be a dream bike.
    And a water bottle mount :-)

  86. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    And a water bottle mount :-)
    Outrageous design flaw.

  87. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    And a water bottle mount :-)
    On Pinkbike there's an article on the enduro bikes of Rotorua and almost all the bikes are using a water bottle. The Yeti guys have theirs in the fecal position(under the down tube.) Part of the holy grail for me is an inside the front triangle water bottle for the weekday rides.

  88. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip D View Post
    On Pinkbike there's an article on the enduro bikes of Rotorua and almost all the bikes are using a water bottle. The Yeti guys have theirs in the fecal position(under the down tube.) Part of the holy grail for me is an inside the front triangle water bottle for the weekday rides.
    Weekday rides I want 1 bottle and no camelbak hassle. Long rides I have to have a Camelbak and a water bottle with some form of fuel in it cuz I ain't putting that crap in a Camelbak

  89. #389
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    THE Holy Grail for me is the bike that I bought at the end of last year: '16 YT Jeffsy CF Pro Race. I am coming off of an intense carbine C 27.5. This bike does everything very, very well. It climbs soooo much better than my intense did. And down, it soaks up everything as well if not better than the intense with the two builds being similar. For 2017, they armed it with a fox floatX which would give heavier clydesdales like me that little extra as far as heat dissipation. The builds are all amazing as far as a price point. Top of the line fox or rockshox come with all the builds. You cannot go wrong with this bike. I tried the santa cruz high tower that a friend was selling and I would have bought it IF the frame had been a large. The XL is a monstrous frame and even though I am 6'2", it was way too big. Still, the day that I rode it side by side w/ the YT, the YT was still superior. Just my .02. Good luck.

  90. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip D View Post
    On Pinkbike there's an article on the enduro bikes of Rotorua and almost all the bikes are using a water bottle. The Yeti guys have theirs in the fecal position(under the down tube.) Part of the holy grail for me is an inside the front triangle water bottle for the weekday rides.
    LOL, the fecal position! It's funny cause it's true!

    I considered it awful that the Yetis don't have proper water bottle storage as well. I guess I still do. But once I reached the conclusion that it was the best overall bike for me I just accepted that I'd have to deal with it. I mean I wouldn't want them to give up any of that amazing rear suspension performance to have an in frame water bottle storage. However if I had been able to personally verify that the Hightower was truly just as good while climbing (maybe it is?), I would have chosen the SC for the water bottle storage as a tie breaker for sure.

    I did manage to place all my tools in the under frame spot so now I'm just carrying my hydration pack on my back. Before I either went w/o my tools, or carried them on my back. Plus my phone goes in my pack too so that's another reason to carry the pack.

  91. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    So after this wall of text it comes down to some internet engineers modeled a system without actual measurements and said it ride in manner A while Brian says it rides in manner B.

    You can't find the 'reviews' that say it rides in manner A while I have no problem finding several that say it rides in manner B.


    Maybe I should throw in a bunch of big words in there to spice it up a little.
    Pretty much summed it up there.

    I get that sales people can often be full of crap, and it would have been acceptable for the internet linkage guys to just say "based on prelim measurements we are getting the following kinematics for this new rear suspension design, which I don't historically like." Then Tantrum pointed out that small inconsistencies in their online photo measurements could result in big differences in their results, and instead of saying the logical thing which is: "I agree and I look forward to riding and measuring one accurately..." they started off on the whole 'know it all biker thing' we see so much of here and everywhere else. The extension of that is of course them accusing Brian of fake accounts to slander their names. Nothing to do with them being total complete know-it-all *******s, clearly.

    Then they attack him for not posting accurate proprietary info, then his patent reading, not having spare frames on hand, and lots of other crap that just reiterates how little they know about the real business world.

    Through it all Brian first answered accurately and politely with the info he could share, and then their attacks got more personal and more far fetched and Brian's attitude got a bit annoyed, but still reasonable.

    My small bit of advice to Brain is this: No matter how polite/ logical/ truthful you are, some of your answers will be viewed in a negative light by some people and this will, through no fault of your own, cost you sales. I would simply copy and paste all the relevant on topic answers to real questions about your product in a single long Word document. When someone asks a real question just add that answer to your Word document and just continually post your full response to all on point questions as your only response.

    And in time, you (or them) will be proven correct and the chips (bike sales, big money licensing agreements, women!) will fall where they may.

  92. #392
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    I agree that YT offers some great builds but I'm a frame only guy, since I own a lot of high end reusable parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by gfox777 View Post
    THE Holy Grail for me is the bike that I bought at the end of last year: '16 YT Jeffsy CF Pro Race. I am coming off of an intense carbine C 27.5. This bike does everything very, very well. It climbs soooo much better than my intense did. And down, it soaks up everything as well if not better than the intense with the two builds being similar. For 2017, they armed it with a fox floatX which would give heavier clydesdales like me that little extra as far as heat dissipation. The builds are all amazing as far as a price point. Top of the line fox or rockshox come with all the builds. You cannot go wrong with this bike. I tried the santa cruz high tower that a friend was selling and I would have bought it IF the frame had been a large. The XL is a monstrous frame and even though I am 6'2", it was way too big. Still, the day that I rode it side by side w/ the YT, the YT was still superior. Just my .02. Good luck.
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  93. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    And a water bottle mount :-)
    Yes! XL SB5.5 with a 480mm reach to run a 50mm stem, 650mm stack, a water bottle mount inside the front triangle. Being 6'4" I consider those almost my minimum measurements, at least the reach.

    The XO1 build for 6k€ - Would buy!
    Don't be mad, I'm totally n00b-ish.

  94. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by niplo View Post
    Yes! XL SB5.5 with a 480mm reach to run a 50mm stem, 650mm stack, a water bottle mount inside the front triangle. Being 6'4" I consider those almost my minimum measurements, at least the reach.

    The XO1 build for 6k€ - Would buy!
    A new fancy Yeti with XO for @ or under 6K...... your crazy man......

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by niplo View Post
    Sure, give me 20mm longer reach and shave 1k€ from the price and it would be a dream bike.
    And replace that funky slider in the suspension with axles and ball bearings.

  96. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    A new fancy Yeti with XO for @ or under 6K...... your crazy man......
    Not really... Direct sales companies do XX1 builds with Factory shocks for 4-5k. As long as people pay, they will continue to charge ridiculous $. Maybe Yeti wakes up at some point when DS manufacturers have >50% market share. Get with the times or die - manage your costs properly and innovate.
    Don't be mad, I'm totally n00b-ish.

  97. #397
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    Just say no to packs

    Tools / tube under seat
    Waterbottle inside front triangle
    Phone / food etc....SWAT bibs
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-primer.jpg  


  98. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by niplo View Post
    Not really... Direct sales companies do XX1 builds with Factory shocks for 4-5k. As long as people pay, they will continue to charge ridiculous $. Maybe Yeti wakes up at some point when DS manufacturers have >50% market share. Get with the times or die - manage your costs properly and innovate.
    Pretty funny statement you make considering Companies like Yeti, Evil, Pivot and so many others continue to thrive because they build cutting edge products and give the brand a personality.

    I'm not disagreeing that YT, Commencal, Canyon and others don't off great value and performance for a competitive price but your opinion is flawed as price isn't the only factor. If a company designs great bikes then there's room for everybody and people will spend the extra coin above direct sales companies.

    I owned a YT capra and although it performed well the CS and quality were below par concerning Frame quality.
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  99. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    And replace that funky slider in the suspension with axles and ball bearings.
    I doubt Yeti would replace something so unique that differentiates their suspension design from all the other manufacturers. You might wan't to ride a switch infinity bike before you pass judgement.
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  100. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I doubt Yeti would replace something so unique that differentiates their suspension design from all the other manufacturers. You might wan't to ride a switch infinity bike before you pass judgement.
    I rode a couple of weeks ago with a relatively new Yeti that had tons of grime and muck on those sliders. Seems like unnecessary complexity, cost, maintenance, parts. It must do something really spectacular for me to even consider a test ride. Now what does it do that was not done before?

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