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  1. #1
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    No good Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware

    Hello everyone -

    im posting this to facebook, Pinkbike, MTBR, and will be creating a public facebook page to hopefully allow others like myself who have had experiences dealing with Evil Bikes customer service warranty claims, share those experiences publicly, in order to give insight to our experiences and prevent the same from happening to other people.

    MY STORY - (yes its long but read it to understand everything)

    Bio - 31 yrs old, 205-210lbs, enduro/AM/DH racer/rider. been riding mountain bikes since about 2008

    So i built my first Evil Wreckoning in early 2017, rode it part time as i had 2 other trail bikes at the time which i rode more often than the Wreckoning.

    fast forward to October 2017.

    it was a friday practice before a 2 day enduro event in burnet, Texas. i pre rode all the stages that day, didn't have any crashes, and on my way back to the parking lot, i just so happened to look down and notice a big super clean crack on the underside of my down tube, right in the middle between the head set and bottom bracket.

    as it was painfully obvious this wasn't related to a crash or indicated a crash in any way whatsoever, i wasn't worried at all that Evil Bikes would cover the front triangle under warranty. I call them the same day, set up an RMA, packed up the entire frame and shipped it to them at Evil HQ.

    I was working with Mike, the customer service/warranty rep for Evil Bikes. We talked on the phone, he asked me a bunch of questions about my weight, riding style, blah blah blah, he sounded thoroughly interested in getting to the bottom of what happened to cause the frame failure, and then i didn't hear from him at all for about 2 weeks. He would not reply to my emails and we had zero contact.

    i finally got a call from mike, we started talking about the verdict of my frame and the solution.

    this is not fabrication of words - this is truly what was said -

    Mike says - "i have determined that this was caused by a crash, because i was able to replicate similar damage to a frame using a baseball bat, which cracked the carbon and didn't make any marks to the exterior finish of the bike. the crash replacement cost will be +/- $650."

    ***are you ****ing kidding me? you mean to tell me that the scientific procedure happening at Evil Bikes HQ to determine warranty claim validity is HITTING BIKES WITH BASEBALL BATS?!?!?!?! I'm not expecting a bunch of scientists with white coats and beakers with green bubbling fluids and charts and graphs and shit in the basement of evil, but sure as hell expect more than hitting bikes with wooden logs like a bunch of geico cavemen***

    i flat out disagreed and said that didn't make any sense, and that i also expected premium customer service when I'm buying a $3k bike frame. if someone sells you a $3k bike frame, they'd better be sure it was accidental damage before just brushing it off their shoulder and sticking you with a $650 bill!

    i was pissed off and said i didn't know what i wanted to do, said i would call him back later and decide what to do.

    i actually called back about 20 minutes later and said "you know what, just go ahead and send me my frame back, I'm not paying the crash replacement". and i could hear what sounded like subtle panic in his voice.

    trying to make a really long story a little bit shorter - we went back and forth, he didn't want to send me the frame back, he kept making up different reasons - "i have to ask the owners of the company if they feel comfortable sending you back a damaged frame because evil could be held liable if you got hurt, blah blah blah. basically trying to persuade me into paying the crash replacement fee instead. i had to get really stern and at one point threatened legal action because they were acting like they weren't going to give me back my property. Damaged frame or not, that frame was legally mine and their "concern for my safety" didn't mean shit and they just needed to send me my damn frame back.

    (what i truly think happened - is that they just assumed i was going to agree to pay the crash replacement fee, and damaged the frame more doing whatever space age technology baseball bat testing they did to make their determination, and physically didn't have the ability to send me my frame back even if they wanted to because it was damaged)

    finally, i get an email from mike (screen shot of email is included in pics) - "since it is christmas time, we have decided to give you a warranty replacement front triangle."

    ***so, only because its christmas time? not because you stand behind your product? but rather a national holiday that i may or may not celebrate since you know nothing about me***

    whatever - i was happy to just finally get a replacement under warranty..


    FAST FORWARD 5 MONTHS TO MAY 5th 2018

    my wreckoning with its brand new replacement front triangle had been professionally painted white, and the entire rear triangle and down tube has custom kydex frame protection, and helicopter tape. - literally a hard armor cover over those areas of carbon.

    yet another enduro event - 1 day event, 6 stages. we decide to do a full practice lap of all 6 stages before putting on our timing chips and actually racing the stages that day.

    one of the stages on a really slow tech section, i got awkward, and tipped over while stuck in my clip and pretty lightly fell on some rocks.

    right before we started racing, i look down i notice a big crack on my top tube this time - there was some type of impact mark and a small puncture in the helicopter tape. my front triangle was broken again. due to some type of impact. I talked to evil the following Monday, spoke with Dylan, who seemed cool. i accepted full responsibility, was very honest and forthcoming about the damage, and didn't expect evil to cover it. We talked about the option of crash replacement and my carbon repair options I mentioned I had locally.

    i took the entire bike to a local carbon repair professional here in Austin .

    He fixed the front triangle, great, and decided to clean the bike up. after removing the kydex guard on the non-drive-side chain stay, he found another crack on the underside of the chain stay at the very front of the triangle immediately after the bottom bracket.

    ***lets talk about this super quick - that underside area of the chain stay is almost impossible to hit on anything when the wheel is attached to the bike. Even if you 50/50 cased a giant jump, you would hit your bash guard, chainring, and cranks, and mainly the rear wheel long before anything came in contact with the bottom of the rear triangle. It would have to be some trick shot crash to perfectly hit the bottom of the chain stay, not cause any damage to the rear wheel or spokes, crack the carbon, and not leave any signs of impact. all at the same time. and dont forget that the entire chain stay / cracked area was completely covered with a hard plastic kydex frame guard and helicopter tape!***

    I took pictures, sent an email to Dylan, and called him the next day. He looked at the email pictures while we were talking, never really indicated it looked crash related, we created another RMA, and I paid to ship the rear triangle to them for review. He sent me and email with the RMA info along with a message that said “In order to grant replacement rear triangles, we do need the original returned to us for review beforehand.” Which I interpreted as a light implication that they planned on covering it under warranty after seeing the pictures, but just had to follow protocol or whatever.

    So it got delivered Thursday 5/17, I never heard anything so I called them yesterday 5/22. Mike called me back (yes, the same mike I dealt with before, Mr. Baseball Bat Carbon Frame Whacker Guy), and surprise surprise he says its a being considered a crash replacement not covered under warranty! He gave same really loose speculation to ways it couldve been possible, but offered no real logical explanation or any scientific evidence to back up his claim. Just another bullshit speculation, no benefit of the doubt, and me the customer is stuck with the bill.


    I didnt even get mad, or rude. I had more of a “im not going through this bullshit with you guys again attitude”. I said to go ahead and just send me the rear triangle back. And as a perfect little cherry on top of this entire dog-shit-cupcake experience with evil bikes - Mike says - “ok I’ll send you an invoice for you to pay for return shipping”… LOL

    ***At this point ive already wasted more time and money by sending the rear triangle back to evil, paying for shipping twice, and its still broken and I need to spend more money to get it repaired.***

    We ended the call, and he sent me a $20 invoice for shipping.


    –and that has been my experience folks. And in the small group of local riders that I know that also ride evil bikes, some of them have also had bad experiences which they have not been publicly vocal about like me.

    i understand evil bikes is a business and just like everybody else, their goal is to make money, but to deal with a company that seems to do and say just about anything to squirm their way out of providing warranty replacements is just a super shitty feeling and shady business practices. Especially when you’re spending $3k on bike frames. Ive had STELLAR experiences with Intense Cycles Customer service, and have heard nothing but good things about companies like Santa Cruz. I hope people read this and it helps them decide if warranty coverage is important to them and if they want to do business with a company with questionable business practices. I hate to have to be the guy trying to start a shit storm, but I feel like customers need to be spoken for and companies that give their customers the shaft need to be exposed. Everything said in this post is 100% true, I just want Evil to be accountable for their words and actions. They shouldnt tell/do anything to a customer (me) that would be embarrassed for the rest of the world to see.

    If anyone else would like to share their experience of a warranty claim with evil - please share!Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33216379_10214490110279201_3726118960911876096_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33460070_10214490111679236_7355240260151803904_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33234814_10214490123199524_3781528613170446336_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-img_5163-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-screen-shot-2018-05-23-1.46.12-pm.jpg


    then update - so i just got the rear triangle back in the mail today from evil. and found another pretty big crack on the opposite drive-side chain stay. this one is painfully obvious that its not crash related. I'm sure that mike at evil who inspected it noticed it too, but of course didn't bring it up because it would only help my case.

    look -

    Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-34073791_10214547145665050_4612620478756945920_o.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-34095980_10214547145585048_2046424390375047168_o.jpg

  2. #2
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    If you google 'cracked evil bike' you'll find that you're not alone in this.

  3. #3
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    So you did something that voids any manufacturer's warranty and you're not happy.
    "my wreckoning with its brand new replacement front triangle had been professionally painted white, "
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    So you did something that voids any manufacturer's warranty and you're not happy.
    "my wreckoning with its brand new replacement front triangle had been professionally painted white, "
    firstly - for evil's warranty page on their website - "The warranty does not apply to custom paint or finishes, or to claimed defects, malfunctions, or failures that result from abuse, neglect, improper assembly, alteration, or misuse."

    I pretty clearly states that the warranty does not apply to customer paint or finishes, NOT that custom paint or finishes voids the warranty. that is really loose legal language. they should hire a better lawyer.

    and secondly - how about we talk about the real issue of the bike cracking everywhere on multiple occasions and evil squirming their way out of it with extremely ridiculous far fetched speculations on what happened.

    we all know these problems weren't caused by paint. get real

    and if anyone wants to harp on the paint issue, then lets talk about the first front triangle failure BEFORE anything was ever painted

  5. #5
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    no one is asking Evil to re-paint the frame. the warranty does not extend to the paint. the structural integrity of the frame, however, should be covered under warranty. their unprofessional response if indicative of the fact that the company is run by a bunch of nobs who are trying to wriggle their way out of responsibility to back their product.

    why did Evil ask the customer to mail a frame to them, on the customer's dime, if they knew that they were not going to grant a warranty replacement? what a waste of the customer's time. in my experience in bike shops, when we had a warranty claim that required the part be sent back to the manufacturer, they would send us a shipping label or reimburse us somehow for shipping. SRAM sends bike shops a lot of free chains to make up for all the garbage brakes they have to send back.
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  6. #6
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    The bit about paint voiding the warranty is not legal anyway.
    The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act was aconsumer protection law enacted by congress to prevent shady business people from advertising warranties and then weaseling out of them for any reason they wanted.
    Aftermarket parts or modifications cannot be used to get out of a warranty unless it can be shown that the modification directly caused the failure for which the consumer is seeking a warranty cure.
    The law doesn't stop plenty of shady dealers from telling people their warranty is void for any number of reasons. The lack of general consumer understanding of this as evidenced here and just about everywhere is unfortunate.
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  7. #7
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    Interesting- can any painting process damage carbon fiber? I would think that using any sort a stripper might compromise the chemical properties in the resin or something like that. I doubt that's what happened here, but I don't know enough about carbon fiber to know.
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  8. #8
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    You win more flies with honey. Judging by his response, it sounds like you were pretty hostile and treated them poorly. Calling one of their colleagues names was not appropriate and they probably didn't go out of their way to help you because of your attitude. I get how frustrating it is to deal with broken components, but the people on the other end of the phone can extend you a little more help if you don't insult them or their colleagues.

    As for painting the frame, they told you that it would void your frame warranty. If a manufacturer says "If you do this thing, thing will void your warranty", maybe you shouldn't do said thing. In this case, I could see where having a carbon frame painted would void a warranty. If the job was done poorly or the frame exposed to incorrect paints/chemicals, it could break down the carbon and create structural issues. They have no way of knowing how well the job was done, hence why it voids your warranty. That probably falls under the "alteration" portion of their warranty.

    I've seen Evils warrantied that looked like they were dropped off the side of a mountain. I don't have any personal experience, but judging by your post, it seems like they tried to work with you and you responded by being insulting and rude. If you had approached them differently, you might have gotten a difference response, but even if you didn't, you directly did what they told you not to do. You can't blame them for not warrantying something when they told you not to do it.

  9. #9
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    I have lost track of all that went on here. two broken front triangles, a painted frame, a locally repaired frame, a broken rear triangle? where are the Cliff's notes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post

    As for painting the frame, they told you that it would void your frame warranty. If a manufacturer says "If you do this thing, thing will void your warranty", maybe you shouldn't do said thing.
    a) the warranty clearly states that custom paint is not covered under warranty, not that painting the frame voids the warranty. voiding a warranty for such a silly reason is most likely BS.
    b) Evil says that the damage was caused by a crash, and that they proved this by hitting a frame by a baseball bat. they never said that the paint caused anything.
    c) if they are trying to claim that painting the frame somehow contributed to the frame breaking, why did they waste the customer's time and money by making him mail it to them on his dime?
    d) it sounds like the customer was being reasonable and patient and received an unprofessional response. his reaction to the unprofessional response from the company is appropriate, IMO.
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  10. #10
    Seths Pool
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    You win more flies with honey. Judging by his response, it sounds like you were pretty hostile and treated them poorly. Calling one of their colleagues names was not appropriate and they probably didn't go out of their way to help you because of your attitude. I get how frustrating it is to deal with broken components, but the people on the other end of the phone can extend you a little more help if you don't insult them or their colleagues.

    As for painting the frame, they told you that it would void your frame warranty. If a manufacturer says "If you do this thing, thing will void your warranty", maybe you shouldn't do said thing. In this case, I could see where having a carbon frame painted would void a warranty. If the job was done poorly or the frame exposed to incorrect paints/chemicals, it could break down the carbon and create structural issues. They have no way of knowing how well the job was done, hence why it voids your warranty. That probably falls under the "alteration" portion of their warranty.

    I've seen Evils warrantied that looked like they were dropped off the side of a mountain. I don't have any personal experience, but judging by your post, it seems like they tried to work with you and you responded by being insulting and rude. If you had approached them differently, you might have gotten a difference response, but even if you didn't, you directly did what they told you not to do. You can't blame them for not warrantying something when they told you not to do it.
    you may or may believe me when I say this but I was extremely cool about everything until the crazy excuses to deny my warranty started. and then them basically trying to force me into paying a crash replacement fee or saying they weren't going to send my my original frame back. shit got absurd REALLY fast in the very beginning. how would you react is your bike manufacturer told your their reasoning you had to pay was because they hit a bike with a baseball bat and caused similar damage?


    I work in an environment (without elaborating too deeply with unnecessary personal information) where I know VERY well how to communicate with people, especially over the phone in a customer service setting. im not taking the blame for any of how this went down. they served me a plate of steaming shit and sorry that I didnt just smile and nod my head and happily eat it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post

    a) the warranty clearly states that custom paint is not covered under warranty, not that painting the frame voids the warranty. voiding a warranty for such a silly reason is most likely BS.
    I'm not sure what that wording is meant for, does Evil offer in house custom finishes?

    In either case, this probably falls under "alteration" more than it does the custom finishes part of the warranty. The removal of the stock paint is altering the frame and, if done poorly, could have structurally compromised the carbon.

    b) Evil says that the damage was caused by a crash, and that they proved this by hitting a frame by a baseball bat. they never said that the paint caused anything.
    The Facebook message states that "the frame warranty is void the moment it is painted". So they did mention that for the second claim.

    c) if they are trying to claim that painting the frame somehow contributed to the frame breaking, why did they waste the customer's time and money by making him mail it to them on his dime?
    I can't answer that. Were they aware it was painted before he sent it to them? Assuming he sent pictures, they'd probably have known. The FB message indicates that he wanted to "give you the benefit of the doubt" and see if it was caused by riding force, but they determined it wasn't.

    My guess is that they have some idea of what the most typical riding caused failures in the frames are and this fell outside of that. Again, I don't know why they did when they knew it was painted and would have voided the warranty, but this is where I feel like not insulting people would have resulted in OP getting a little more leniency.

    d) it sounds like the customer was being reasonable and patient and received an unprofessional response. his reaction to the unprofessional response from the company is appropriate, IMO.
    I don't see what is unprofessional about their response. I do see what is unprofessional about calling someone "Mr Baseball Bat Carbon Frame Whacker Guy", though, and judging by his response in the Facebook message, OP wasn't exactly easy to deal with.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I have lost track of all that went on here. two broken front triangles, a painted frame, a locally repaired frame, a broken rear triangle? where are the Cliff's notes?

    *1 broken front triangle without any aftermarket paint job - tried to say it was crash related because they replicated similar damage using a baseball bat

    *finally got warranty replacement after weeks or arguing

    painted warranty replacement front triangle

    *bike fell over on some rocks and cracked the top tube on 2nd front triangle - I accepted full responsibility and paid to have it repaired

    *while repairing front triangle we found a big crack on rear triangle - sent pictures to evil - they saw damage and that the bike was painted - never said anything about paint voiding warranty - then used paint as excuse to deny warranty after I got pissed that they blamed it on a crash

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    You win more flies with honey.
    He paid them $3k for a frame. How much more honey does he need to provide?

    Be a stand up company or get a reputation as unreliable, untrustworthy.... they should know...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    He paid them $3k for a frame. How much more honey does he need to provide?

    Be a stand up company or get a reputation as unreliable, untrustworthy.... they should know...
    My point was that, if you are in a grey area or a little outside what is acceptable, you might get a little more leniency if you are nice to folks instead of rude.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    My point was that, if you are in a grey area or a little outside what is acceptable, you might get a little more leniency if you are nice to folks instead of rude.
    please trust me when I tell you I was totally cool about the whole thing until shit got retarded. and once the first instance was over, the second time I had to deal with them I dealt with the exact same guy from the first time. so im sure they already were leaning towards "**** this guy" from the 1st debacle that THEY caused.

  16. #16
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    Wow, just wow. I have several friends with Evils and I will give them the heads up on this. I had The Following on my radar on a possible next bike and now I will never consider buying that frame. Really appalling stuff from a company I assumed would stand by their product and not offer such dismal, almost spiteful, customer service.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    please trust me when I tell you I was totally cool about the whole thing until shit got retarded. and once the first instance was over, the second time I had to deal with them I dealt with the exact same guy from the first time. so im sure they already were leaning towards "**** this guy" from the 1st debacle that THEY caused.
    Fair enough. I don't have any direct experiences with Evil, so I don't have any real contradictory experiences. I've just worked with other brands people I knew had problems with, the folks I knew were pretty hostile from the start, and they got vastly different responses than I did with the same brands not being rude/obnoxious.

    So yea, if you were chill and cool, then shame on them, especially the first issue. Looking at it again, I think you definitely had a point there.

  18. #18
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    Seth@1x111, thanks for posting this. I have had my eye on an Evil for over a year. 1) I usually only buy aluminum frames, 2) I have always felt very uncomfortable about Evil's track record with carbon manufacturing, after the entire Uprising debacle. This story could have ended so much better for Evil. This story does not inspire confidence about their ability to produce strong carbon frames, or their ability to help customers with problems. Very expensive frame to have to " self warranty".

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    He paid them $3k for a frame. How much more honey does he need to provide?

    Be a stand up company or get a reputation as unreliable, untrustworthy.... they should know...
    Exactly. Sounds like a good company to avoid dealing with.

    Besides, these frou-frou plastic rigs are "Evils" in name only.
    A genuine Evil could handle being seriously thrashed (or painted) without falling apart, and if you somehow happened to figure out a way to break one, there would be no run-around.

    Times sure have changed.

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  20. #20
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    Love the web- get one side and bamm company is shit can't trust.

    How many " I was just riding along.... " stories do you have to read before you stop taking a single sided post as gospel.
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  21. #21
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    Its a good point TwoTone, but Evil as a company is known for poor quality broken carbon frames. They are in a situation where they need to go above and beyond normal customer service, in order to re establish their already tarnished reputation. I hope Evil posts here, to this thread. That would be great. I hope that the number of Evil frames with problems is low, because they are on my short list for next bike. So far, this is a great thread. OP has not really lambasted EVIL, he just presented his side of what happened. I am loving my new $999 Canfield Brothers Riot, and right now, I am not bummed at all that I decided NOT to buy a $2,800 frame from Evil. Maybe next year. I am cheering for Evil to succeed, so I hope they have a reasonable response.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Love the web- get one side and bamm company is shit can't trust.

    How many " I was just riding along.... " stories do you have to read before you stop taking a single sided post as gospel.
    I have a riding buddy whose CS experience with them is similar, and yes, his frames did break 'just riding along'.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Love the web- get one side and bamm company is shit can't trust.

    How many " I was just riding along.... " stories do you have to read before you stop taking a single sided post as gospel.
    I also find it interesting that some people are quick to assume that the customer must be a liar, and that a corporation would never use questionable tactics to reduce claim expenses.

    We hit it with a bat and it cracked, so you must have done the same.... yeah, 5 star customer service that is beyond reproach....

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Love the web- get one side and bamm company is shit can't trust.

    How many " I was just riding along.... " stories do you have to read before you stop taking a single sided post as gospel.

    bro I completely understand your angle on that... I know there are infinite stories of "just riding along and BAM". but the proof is usually in the pudding. you can typically look at a carbon fiber bike frame and usually tell if the crack is crash or impact related. I dont know what you guys have on your trails... maybe your trails are peppered with bike frame hazards like pillows, giant bags of cotton balls, giant bananas, and other very soft and plush things that might crack your frame without making any marks on the exterior of your bikes but here in central Texas we have nothing but rocks, dirt, loose rocks, jagged rocks, cedar and oak trees, and more jagged rocks. when you crash your bike in central Texas, its gonna leave a noticeable (if not grossly obvious) mark. if your paint finish is stronger than the structural integrity of your $3k carbon fiber bike frame, you have a serious engineering problem.

    I know its easy to promise and swear, but I swear on anything that this ENTIRE post is completely true. I fabricated NOTHING

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Love the web- get one side and bamm company is shit can't trust.
    true, Seth doesn't have a reputation yet on this particular board. However, I've met him (he donated a nice seatpost to me when I needed one), he's a well known and trusted member of the Austin mtb community, and I know how unforgiving central Texas trails are. he's just a guy who rides hard and does not have time for broken bikes. Evil seems to believe their frame should have been sufficiently strong for his riding style and it missed the mark.

    I am surprised they didn't just admit that he's too much for their frame to handle and offered an aluminum one as a replacement. surely the aluminum frame is worth what a crash replacement carbon one is worth?
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  26. #26
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    FWIW I chatted with a lead mechanic at the premiere boutique bike shop near us. They carry nearly everything Boutique (Yeti, Pivot, Transition, Evil, etc) and are in PNW so they know Evil well. Guy said he always feels a little bad when he see's a new Evil roll out the door because of the low Manufacturing tolerances they use.

    This spoke to me and Aerospace guy (again PNW). No matter how good a factory is, if the customer spec's lower tolerances (which are cheaper and easier to make), the quality of a certain percentage will be lower. Its just how it is. It doesn't mean all, but some. So think a BB with an extra 1/2 mm of diameter or something might be rejected by Pivot yet acceptable by Evil. My guess that may be related the issue here (maybe not too). Like all things, it often comes down to cost savings and if someone wants to pay the premium to the Factory/R&D to get that super high quality or not. FWIW I'm a fan of Evil bikes and like that they aren't just making racing bikes.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post

    Ive had STELLAR experiences with Intense Cycles Customer service, and have heard nothing but good things about companies like Santa Cruz.
    We need a separate thread that recognizes brands that provide great service and stand behind their products. You have two really good ones right there.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    We need a separate thread that recognizes brands that provide great service and stand behind their products. You have two really good ones right there.
    im all about that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    We need a separate thread that recognizes brands that provide great service and stand behind their products. You have two really good ones right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    im all about that!
    Started a similar thing on a forum I'm more active at. Lots of good info. Already happy with some choices I made from advice in that thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ces?highlight=

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    Ive had STELLAR experiences with Intense Cycles Customer service
    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    We need a separate thread that recognizes brands that provide great service and stand behind their products. You have two really good ones right there.
    I suppose you don't see the irony there since there are a bunch of similar threads in the Intense form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    I also find it interesting that some people are quick to assume that the customer must be a liar, and that a corporation would never use questionable tactics to reduce claim expenses.

    We hit it with a bat and it cracked, so you must have done the same.... yeah, 5 star customer service that is beyond reproach....
    Work retail for a while, pretty easy to understand why customers are questioned.
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  32. #32
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    I had seen a few evil's in pieces from riding buddies (2 in the last 2 years). The CS experiences of those people weren't terrible, but they were for sure not as good as the warranty experiences that I have witnessed from santacruz and pivot first/second hand through my LBS.

  33. #33
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    I'll play devil's advocate here and if I was a manufacture and a customer painted frame came in cracked I would be questioning as to why the frame was painted in the first place. Especially if it was used heavily for racing. Then add a customers aggressive attitude and more flags go up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    I'll play devil's advocate here and if I was a manufacture and a customer painted frame came in cracked I would be questioning as to why the frame was painted in the first place. Especially if it was used heavily for racing. Then add a customers aggressive attitude and more flags go up.
    just to mention - the frame was painted IMMEDIATELY after receiving the brand new replacement front triangle from evil. they also had the rear triangle in their possession and inspection when the put the frame back together before sending it to me. so there wasnt really any question about what happened to the frame before it was painted.

    and I wasnt ever "aggressive" if thats the right word. I was completely cordial, polite, and professional until shit started getting ridiculous

  35. #35
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    personally, if I paint a frame, I expect to not have any type of warranty from the original manufacturer of the frame. Obviously, there should be no issues, however as a mfg, you cannot take responsibility for anything in the painting process that could have an impact. Strippers, solvents, sanding etc.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions for sure... that being said, this thread is also about customer service and that exchange. To that end, I don't think this was handled properly.

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    Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a buddy with a Trek carbon bike. He rode it for a few days after buying new from his LBS. While he and I were checking it out, we noticed what seemed like a 5mm crack on the clear coat on the seat stay dropout. Looked superficial to me but I’m no expert. Took it to the LBS he bought it from and brought it to their attention. LBS agreed that it’s possibly superficial. LBS contacts Trek anyway. Trek decides to ‘play it safe’ and send a replacement carbon seat stay. Easiest warranty claim ever. You’d think that a big company like Trek would treat their customers like crap. But based on stories I’ve heard, it’s actually quite the opposite.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    I had seen a few evil's in pieces from riding buddies (2 in the last 2 years). The CS experiences of those people weren't terrible, but they were for sure not as good as the warranty experiences that I have witnessed from santacruz and pivot first/second hand through my LBS.
    Compare the companies bottom lines, Santa Cruz can afford to warranty things that might not actually be warranty to keep people happy.

    As a courtesy I won't mention the boutique brand name that I contacted when looking for a replacement for my TBc V1. When I asked about if the frame could handle the riding I did with the TBc, the owner flat out said at the time, SC is a 50 million a year company, they can afford to warranty your experiments, we're too small to absorb those costs.

    Bottom line, you want Santa Cruz or Specialized type no questions warranty everything attitude- buy from the big guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almazing View Post
    Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a buddy with a Trek carbon bike. He rode it for a few days after buying new from his LBS. While he and I were checking it out, we noticed what seemed like a 5mm crack on the clear coat on the seat stay dropout. Looked superficial to me but I’m no expert. Took it to the LBS he bought it from and brought it to their attention. LBS agreed that it’s possibly superficial. LBS contacts Trek anyway. Trek decides to ‘play it safe’ and send a replacement carbon seat stay. Easiest warranty claim ever. You’d think that a big company like Trek would treat their customers like crap. But based on stories I’ve heard, it’s actually quite the opposite.
    Trek is known for having one of the best frame warranties in the biz. As long as you're good to the shop you buy from, the can almost always help ya out.

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    I could see why they questioned the damage, but for the cost of these frames the companies need to remember that expectations are set somewhat higher, especially with customer service interaction. It sounds like they could have handled it much better, bummer...


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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I have a riding buddy whose CS experience with them is similar, and yes, his frames did break 'just riding along'.
    Come on D, I rode that cracked for a year before I crashed and made it worse

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by simple78 View Post
    Come on D, I rode that cracked for a year before I crashed and made it worse
    Never let little crack get in the way of a good time!
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  42. #42
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    I bet both sides of this story are right. Initial crack was caused by some type of impact on the downtube, OP probably never realized it was there and rode with the crack for some time. It either slowly got worse with regular riding or quickly on a jump, drop or other big hit. Full disclosure, I have a Wreckoning. One of the reasons I bought it is the lack of issues reported with all of their current bikes on these forum and the internet in general. Yes, you could go back a number of years and find serious issues with one model, one year, but to my knowledge Evil eventually took care of everyone. Anyone writing off Evil should scan the mega-threads on all the current bikes and form your own conclusions.

    BTW OP, says right in the text messages between you and Dylan that he advised you not to paint the frame before you painted it which would void the warranty. I'm not going to pretend I'm a carbon expert, so regardless of whether painting could or could not cause any issues, why go ahead with painting?

  43. #43
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    I’m surprised how broken that frame was. I get the fall and rock strike but two chainstay cracks and a down tube! I also own a Wreckoning and always considered it a complete tank. Compared to my Santa Cruz it’s just overbuilt everywhere.

    Would be interested to know more about the actual cracks from someone knowledgeable about carbon. Is there something that can go wrong in manufacturing or curing to result in a brittle frame?


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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Structure View Post
    I’m surprised how broken that frame was. I get the fall and rock strike but two chainstay cracks and a down tube! I also own a Wreckoning and always considered it a complete tank. Compared to my Santa Cruz it’s just overbuilt everywhere.

    Would be interested to know more about the actual cracks from someone knowledgeable about carbon. Is there something that can go wrong in manufacturing or curing to result in a brittle frame?


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    If the Small was a little smaller I'd probably have a Wreconing. The first thing I'd do is get a rubber down tube protector and chainstay protector.

    When I ride I can hear the rocks pinging of my aluminum bike. My buddy has a carbon warden doesn't hear a thing. So you could be flinging sharp rocks into your down tube and not notice. Since carbon silences a lot vs aluminum tube amplifies sounds.

  45. #45
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    Racing a bike is also much harder on it than trail riding. Its why I would never buy a pre-owned DH bike used for racing.
    And I still don't see the need for painting a relatively new bike if it hasn't been beaten to crap. Isn't the reason for painting a newish frame if its been ridden hard?
    The frame issues are in odd places for failure as far as structural integrity, but make sense for impact failure. I can see where a manufacturer would make the determination, especially after being in retail & service. You wouldn't believe how many people are willing to stretch the truth or flat out lie to get something covered under warranty or have the business pay for damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    You wouldn't believe how many people are willing to stretch the truth or flat out lie to get something covered under warranty or have the business pay for damage.
    And it's been proven time and again how many companies try and weasel out of legit warranty claims.

    Not sure where that leaves us here, but both sides historically have lied to better their cause.

    I for one appreciate the information the OP has provided in this thread and can draw my own conclusion.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    And it's been proven time and again how many companies try and weasel out of legit warranty claims.

    Not sure where that leaves us here, but both sides historically have lied to better their cause.

    I for one appreciate the information the OP has provided in this thread and can draw my own conclusion.
    Sort of like the guy that ripped open the head tube from just casing a jump- oh that was until someone else that was there pointed out that he had cased the jump repeatedly until it failed and the video showing it wasn't a rearward force on the fork, he was landing with the front wheel on onside and the rest of the bike on the other pull them away from each other.

    Minor details is all.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    Not sure where that leaves us here
    Which is where I've been since the moment this thread went up. I wonder how many other MTBR surfers have read what's been posted here and left with a feeling similar to this: "Hmmm... from my distant perspective, objective truth is impossible to determine."

    I'm not implying the OP isn't telling the truth. I'm saying objective truth is impossible to determine while sitting in front of a computer monitor. Anyone drawing a conclusion that favors either side at this point does so with a significant amount of trust, conjecture and perhaps even some (unperceived?) personal bias.
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  49. #49
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    I feel like there is a legitimate problem with customer service among smaller frame companies within the cycling industry. I work part time for a bike shop and am currently on my 3rd warranty venture within the last couple years. All 3 cases were very obvious weld failures (these are steel frames) and the first 2 I was both denied and ignored. The 3rd frame is still in the works, and while I haven't written it off yet I am slowly starting to lose faith as it's been 2 weeks since I saw a response.

    Frames these days are not cheap, and they break. That's a fact of life, especially with how hard bikes are ridden these days. Yet for some reason a lot of these "boutique" builders think they can get off with shitty warranty policies that are open for interpretation, or they think they that it's ok to leave people without a frame for months at a time because "we're small and only have a couple dudes working here".

    As a guy who works for a shop, I find myself leaning more and more towards big brands like Specialized. If someone comes into my shop with a cracked Enduro frame, and the shop manager says "yes, this frame is cracked" they will almost always have a frame sitting at the shop ready to be put together in less than a week. With how rough I am (and a lot of people) with frames, that's a big selling point. I don't want to pay $30 to send my frame back, to have some guy him-haw around for 3 weeks before looking at it because he's "busy". That's 3 weeks of riding time I am losing.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I feel like there is a legitimate problem with customer service among smaller frame companies within the cycling industry. I work part time for a bike shop and am currently on my 3rd warranty venture within the last couple years. All 3 cases were very obvious weld failures (these are steel frames) and the first 2 I was both denied and ignored. The 3rd frame is still in the works, and while I haven't written it off yet I am slowly starting to lose faith as it's been 2 weeks since I saw a response.

    Frames these days are not cheap, and they break. That's a fact of life, especially with how hard bikes are ridden these days. Yet for some reason a lot of these "boutique" builders think they can get off with shitty warranty policies that are open for interpretation, or they think they that it's ok to leave people without a frame for months at a time because "we're small and only have a couple dudes working here".

    As a guy who works for a shop, I find myself leaning more and more towards big brands like Specialized. If someone comes into my shop with a cracked Enduro frame, and the shop manager says "yes, this frame is cracked" they will almost always have a frame sitting at the shop ready to be put together in less than a week. With how rough I am (and a lot of people) with frames, that's a big selling point. I don't want to pay $30 to send my frame back, to have some guy him-haw around for 3 weeks before looking at it because he's "busy". That's 3 weeks of riding time I am losing.
    Good to hear from people in the middle who regularly work with both manufacturers and consumers.

    I will say that the people I know who work at bike shops that aren't super boutique-y, swear by a bunch of the big companies; esp Trek, Specialized and Santa Cruz. Sure, the boutique things may offer something a little more cool, but for sheer dependability, solid warranties, and quick operations they seem hard to beat.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
    I will say that the people I know who work at bike shops that aren't super boutique-y, swear by a bunch of the big companies; esp Trek, Specialized and Santa Cruz. Sure, the boutique things may offer something a little more cool, but for sheer dependability, solid warranties, and quick operations they seem hard to beat.
    I've had great experiences with Santa Cruz, Ibis, and Transition.

    The main thing keeping me away from Trek and Specialized is the requirement that I have to go through my shop for warranty requests. My experiences doing that with shops has been really hit or miss. In some cases, they work for you and help you out, in others they position the request in such a way that there is no way you are getting a replacement. You are subject to their willingness to submit the request and deal with it, along with their timeframes.

    I much prefer working with brands that I can call on the phone myself or interact with directly, which is the case with the three I mentioned above. I'd rather cut out the middleman and deal with the submission myself, eliminating one more source of potential conflict and delay.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I've had great experiences with Santa Cruz, Ibis, and Transition.

    The main thing keeping me away from Trek and Specialized is the requirement that I have to go through my shop for warranty requests. My experiences doing that with shops has been really hit or miss. In some cases, they work for you and help you out, in others they position the request in such a way that there is no way you are getting a replacement. You are subject to their willingness to submit the request and deal with it, along with their timeframes.

    I much prefer working with brands that I can call on the phone myself or interact with directly, which is the case with the three I mentioned above. I'd rather cut out the middleman and deal with the submission myself, eliminating one more source of potential conflict and delay.
    I would tend to agree, unfortunately I work for a shop and for one of the small companies I submitted to on my own (I let them know I turned wrenches at a shop) they still made me take it to another independent shop to verify that I wasn't lying and/or didn't just pull a picture off of Google in an attempt to score a free frame.

    I followed through, did everything they asked and that was the company that ultimately quit responding. I tried contacting them 3 times after they stopped responding and had no luck.

    The other frame they just outright denied, and the current frame that's in limbo asked me to send the frame in (which I did). So now I have a frame that could potentially be fixed with the right guy and a TIG welder, sitting at the warehouse of one of these small brands and I haven't had any contact for 2 weeks.

    So I agree, dealing with a shop is annoying, but at least it's consistent. The small guys are all over the board with what they want and how they expect you to approach their warranty process. I have heard way too many stories like the one above and like I have dealt with, where the first time you contact them they are all super sympathetic and helpful. Then a month later you're still trying to get someone to respond to your emails.

  53. #53
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    I've found the same with smaller brands.

    If you're gonna ride a boutique bike, it's a really good idea to have a back-up rig kicking around, cuz you never know how long you'll have to go without in the event of a problem.
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  54. #54
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    Wonder if Evil knows about this thread and if they will respond with their side of the story? What if there is no "other" side of the story?

    On the other hand, being blown off by a company named "Evil" seems pretty expected. I bet someone could name a bike company "No Support Up Your Butt Cycles" and some people would be totally surprised with no warranty support and why they are now walking bow legged. But I believe in poetry.

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    Seth (OP) is a real straight shooter (we've ridden, and swapped some parts here and there), I'm certain he is telling the complete truth.

    However, this guy rides a bike hard and is best served by a brand new lifetime warrantied type bicycle with a factory finish.

    To be blunt, not many riders can really stretch a bike's limits but this guy can. I just don't think an Evil can hold up under this rider given that he had multiple failures on Evils in a relatively short period of time. Here is the thing, how much does it REALLY cost a manufacturer for a new frame? I bet the crash warranty cost, about $600, is their actual cost for a single new frame. It seems it would have smart to just replace the frame under warranty.

    Tough situation all around. Good luck with it Seth!

  56. #56
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    Who the **** tells a customer that they test with a baseball bat? That's some mid Evil shit right there .

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    i think both were wrong, but thats why i buy from huge brands, hopefully to never have this problem

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    Hello all, long time lurker - first post.

    I felt compelled to come out of the woodwork to post on this topic specifically. I don’t want to wade into a lot of the points noted above; rather, provide another data point for people because I think what I have to say is on topic.

    I bought my first mountain bike three weeks ago. Road bike convert, if you will. I read as much as possible and decided to try and buy the one bike to rule them all, rather than go through bike after bike to suit my inevitable growth in skills. I rode a lot of bikes and narrowed my choice for a PNW bike down to an Evil Wreckoning and SC Hightower LT.

    In the end, not really knowing much difference, I decided on the Wreckoning. I looked online - Craigslist - and found a used Wreck’r for a decent price that had been spilled a couple of times and had some scratches and paint missing. From the pics, it was hard to tell if the frame was cracked or if it was just chipped paint. The seller was a standup guy from a major riding community in the PNW and agreed to meet me at Evil HQ in Seattle to look at the bike with the guys that built it, because I wanted to know what my exposure was if the bike needed one or both triangles replaced. I spoke to Dylan in advance of the meeting to get pricing on each triangle in the event either needed that.

    Anyway, the guys at Evil took a look at the bike and deemed it to be in great shape, albeit with missing paint. No replacement required, though I made it clear that I was more than willing to pay if either triangle needed it because I wanted the bike to be as cherry as possible, short of paying the full freight for a brand new bike. All in all, they said I didn’t need it and threw in a small fingernail sized vial of the blue touch up paint for it for free and said “enjoy your new bike, welcome to the Evil family.”

    I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but I wanted there to be a counterpoint to the notion that this is a company just “looking for a reason” to suck more money out of people who buy their bikes or unwilling to stand behind a product. I could and would have paid to replace a triangle and if they were just looking to sneak another 400-600 (depending on which triangle it was) they could have easily done so. Just my .02...

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Seth (OP) is a real straight shooter (we've ridden, and swapped some parts here and there), I'm certain he is telling the complete truth.
    He may be telling the truth, as far as he is aware, but that doesn't mean he's right. He cracked the frame long before he noticed it. He noticed it later, while he was JRA.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burntorangefan View Post
    Hello all, long time lurker - first post.

    I felt compelled to come out of the woodwork to post on this topic specifically. I don’t want to wade into a lot of the points noted above; rather, provide another data point for people because I think what I have to say is on topic.

    I bought my first mountain bike three weeks ago. Road bike convert, if you will. I read as much as possible and decided to try and buy the one bike to rule them all, rather than go through bike after bike to suit my inevitable growth in skills. I rode a lot of bikes and narrowed my choice for a PNW bike down to an Evil Wreckoning and SC Hightower LT.

    In the end, not really knowing much difference, I decided on the Wreckoning. I looked online - Craigslist - and found a used Wreck’r for a decent price that had been spilled a couple of times and had some scratches and paint missing. From the pics, it was hard to tell if the frame was cracked or if it was just chipped paint. The seller was a standup guy from a major riding community in the PNW and agreed to meet me at Evil HQ in Seattle to look at the bike with the guys that built it, because I wanted to know what my exposure was if the bike needed one or both triangles replaced. I spoke to Dylan in advance of the meeting to get pricing on each triangle in the event either needed that.

    Anyway, the guys at Evil took a look at the bike and deemed it to be in great shape, albeit with missing paint. No replacement required, though I made it clear that I was more than willing to pay if either triangle needed it because I wanted the bike to be as cherry as possible, short of paying the full freight for a brand new bike. All in all, they said I didn’t need it and threw in a small fingernail sized vial of the blue touch up paint for it for free and said “enjoy your new bike, welcome to the Evil family.”

    I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but I wanted there to be a counterpoint to the notion that this is a company just “looking for a reason” to suck more money out of people who buy their bikes or unwilling to stand behind a product. I could and would have paid to replace a triangle and if they were just looking to sneak another 400-600 (depending on which triangle it was) they could have easily done so. Just my .02...
    One thing you will find in the mtb community, is that most people are cool. Bike company owners included... BUT. I stand by what I said earlier in this thread about their warranty processes and how they generally deal with them. I don't know if it's just disorganization or them being tight wads with warranties, but the general consensus is that it's a whole different atmosphere (generally) when you try to warranty a frame.

    Keep in mind that these people are marketing their item. Of course they want you to feel like part of the "family". However when a weld breaks on a frame you bought from them, you become low priority.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    FWIW I chatted with a lead mechanic at the premiere boutique bike shop near us. They carry nearly everything Boutique (Yeti, Pivot, Transition, Evil, etc) and are in PNW so they know Evil well. Guy said he always feels a little bad when he see's a new Evil roll out the door because of the low Manufacturing tolerances they use.

    This spoke to me and Aerospace guy (again PNW). No matter how good a factory is, if the customer spec's lower tolerances (which are cheaper and easier to make), the quality of a certain percentage will be lower. Its just how it is. It doesn't mean all, but some. So think a BB with an extra 1/2 mm of diameter or something might be rejected by Pivot yet acceptable by Evil. My guess that may be related the issue here (maybe not too). Like all things, it often comes down to cost savings and if someone wants to pay the premium to the Factory/R&D to get that super high quality or not. FWIW I'm a fan of Evil bikes and like that they aren't just making racing bikes.
    We might know some of the same people. Yeah - this why the 'but now they're made in the same factory as Santa Cruz' line is irrelevant. Are they paying for the same tolerances and build quality? They make a nice bike; I really enjoyed a demo ride on a Wreckoning. But I would never own one. I have several friends who had continual issues with theirs. I just won't choose a bike with a significant chance of a warranty claim and I have multiple friends in positions to give me informed advice on that.

    A few years ago my buddy was building an Uprising and he had reason to call Evil several times. Their voicemail message said: "You've reached EEEEEE-VILLLLL" in someone's best Danzig impression, and then went on about how their vast army of robots was hard at work. I might have thought that was funny or cool when I was 17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burntorangefan View Post
    I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but
    Charging you for a new frame, when nothing is wrong with the original but paint scratches - is called fraud...

    Big difference from that, to them exercising their "warranty at our sole discretion" of obvious damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Charging you for a new frame, when nothing is wrong with the original but paint scratches - is called fraud...
    Hardly, a visual inspection doesn't mean there might not be a crack they didn't see. They could have easily said We don't see anything but if you want to be safe buy a new rear for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Hardly, a visual inspection doesn't mean there might not be a crack they didn't see. They could have easily said We don't see anything but if you want to be safe buy a new rear for it.
    Is this more of your vast experience in providing good customer service?

    I would hope that if they were unsure about the structural integrity they would have said so...

  65. #65
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    Note to manufacturers - stop making carbon frames in China or Taiwan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Is this more of your vast experience in providing good customer service?

    I would hope that if they were unsure about the structural integrity they would have said so...
    Has nothing to do with customer service- you called it fraud, which is wouldn't have been.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    Note to manufacturers - stop making carbon frames in China or Taiwan.
    Note to customers - be willing to pay 10x more for non-Chinese/Taiwanese carbon frames.
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    Note to self - keep avoiding carbon anything when it comes to MTB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    Note to manufacturers - stop making carbon frames in China or Taiwan.
    manufacturing in china isnt the problem. amazing prooducts are made in china. look at the iphone. 100% manufactured in china. its all about quality control. the more companies pay to stay on top of it, the better quality control outcome.

    and as it was mentioned earlier, they may seem super friendly and helpful when you need a bottle of touch up paint, or a screw here, or bolt there that cost the company virtually nothing. its when you make a warranty claim on a frame is when the attitude takes a drastic turn.

    I originally posted this in the evil bike owners club forum on facebook. people would reply "ive had great customer service experiences with evil, they took care of me great." I always ask if it was a frame warranty claim or a small part or accessory.... guess which one answer I never hear them reply with. you can probably guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Note to self - keep avoiding carbon anything when it comes to MTB.
    and yes - I recently built a guerrilla gravity Megatrail about 3 months ago. absolutely LOVE it. feels great to be back on aluminum.

    I still have a few carbon trail and DH bikes so ill continue riding those but moving forward, any bikes I buy from now on will be aluminum. I wish all bike manufacturers offered a carbon or aluminum option for every bike model. that would be so awesome

  71. #71
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    Too bad you cant fit 29er wheelset on your iphone. J/k. Guerrilla Gravity is sweet, I love my new metal Canfield Brothers Riot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Has nothing to do with customer service- you called it fraud, which is wouldn't have been.
    Knowingly deceiving a customer is fraud. They could've easily said "if you want to be safe than sorry", but that doesn't make it any less dishonest, if they only really thought it was paint.

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    So I don't have a dog in this argument except that I've done the type of enduro events (i.e. races) that the OP talks about and if my carbon bike (not Evil, btw) would have shown up with cracks after that then I'd probably take the blame and would have paid the crash replacement instead of getting all worked up. Racing is not 'just riding along' and who knows if rocks kicked up did pop your frame in those places-specially the chainstays with the type of terrain that's in Burnet and the rest of the locations picked for this race series. I understand you paid a lot for the frame and it should have a warranty and good customer service associated with it, but does that warranty also cover racing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    So I don't have a dog in this argument except that I've done the type of enduro events (i.e. races) that the OP talks about and if my carbon bike (not Evil, btw) would have shown up with cracks after that then I'd probably take the blame and would have paid the crash replacement instead of getting all worked up. Racing is not 'just riding along' and who knows if rocks kicked up did pop your frame in those places-specially the chainstays with the type of terrain that's in Burnet and the rest of the locations picked for this race series. I understand you paid a lot for the frame and it should have a warranty and good customer service associated with it, but does that warranty also cover racing?
    ive seen years ago on I forgot which company's website that racing voided the warranty but I do remember it was for a DH bike. it definitely doesnt say anywhere in evil's warranty that its voided by racing. but "racing" is such a subjective term anyway. like what about racing against you and your buddies' Strava times? should/would that void a warranty? its all the same thing at the end of the day right? - trying to go fast. something that just about every mountain biker loves to do. and when buying literally the best bikes money can buy, id assume we should expect them to be built correctly to handle that.

    and about the rocks flying up and hitting the frame - I have been hyperaware of that risk which is why I took it upon myself and invented a frame specific custom kydex frame protection system. literally hard armor for carbon fiber bike frames. if a rock flew up hard enough to break the carbon through 2 layers of protection, it'd likely be some catastrophic event. not something I didnt even notice

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    By what you wrote you put on the kydex after you got the replacement front triangle, so could something have hit the chainstays before the kydex when on the bike? This is a whole grey area of what is covered, what is normal use, etc. But it's not a slam-dunk case against Evil that they won't cover a bike that's been raced or show signs of being ridden hard IMO. The baseball bat thing does sound weird as well as what you said followed afterwards, but expecting something to be indestructible is not realistic either.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Knowingly deceiving a customer is fraud. They could've easily said "if you want to be safe than sorry", but that doesn't make it any less dishonest, if they only really thought it was paint.
    LOL how is that dishonest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Hardly, a visual inspection doesn't mean there might not be a crack they didn't see. They could have easily said We don't see anything but if you want to be safe buy a new rear for it.
    This is exactly right. I was VERY clear I would be willing to pay for a new triangle if they thought I needed it. The door was open, so to speak, and they showed the restraint I'd expect from a standup company. At the end of the day, you can choose to do business with a niche local company and deal with all that that entails or you can buy from a large manufacturer like Spesh (whose road bikes I really like). In this case, I'm happy with my decision and wouldn't discourage anyone from trying an Evil as well. Sorry the OP has had an unfavorable experience, but mine was very different.

  78. #78
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    Well I wouldn't be selling your invention any time soon. Seems like it needs more field testing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burntorangefan View Post
    ... Sorry the OP has had an unfavorable experience, but mine was very different.
    A different experience sure.

    But it's not a comparable experience.

    When you go through a warranty experience with Evil, then you'll have a comparable, meaningful data point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Note to self - keep avoiding carbon anything when it comes to MTB.
    too simple

  81. #81
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    Looks like the bike is painted . Warranty VOID

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
    A different experience sure.

    But it's not a comparable experience.

    When you go through a warranty experience with Evil, then you'll have a comparable, meaningful data point.
    Um, sure, okay. I suppose if you're being a literalist then unless I broke my frame racing, replaced a triangle, painted said triangle and tested the customer service experience throughout I wouldn't be providing meaningful data.

    For everyone else that doesn't see the world quite this black and white, I was hoping to share my experience to illuminate that despite OP's clearly miserable - at least to him personally - time, there are others that find Evil CS accommodating and helpful and in my opinion it's more than just a vial of blue paint. Either way, you can take it or leave it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burntorangefan View Post
    Um, sure, okay. I suppose if you're being a literalist...
    The literalist in me does see a significant difference between experience with a brands warranty program and what you experienced (a vial of $0.30 paint and no upsell) -- which quite literally cannot even be "customer service" because you didn't spend any money with them.

    The good will they gave you (and this is a very good thing for a brand to do) -- is marketing. Not CS.

    I'm not saying you need to be in the same exact position to have a meaningful comparison. I am saying that a meaningful comparison would be at the very least an interaction with their customer service (defined as being a customer). And the most meaningful comparison would be someone who had experience with their warranty service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    too simple
    Story of my life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
    Trek is known for having one of the best frame warranties in the biz. As long as you're good to the shop you buy from, the can almost always help ya out.
    I agree. I had a7 year old frame crack and they sent a new one, back riding within a week.

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    Warranties on a mountain bike frame are hard for me to wrap my head around. Sure, it's nice that SC and others offer a lifetime warranty. But, if you go down even once how do you really know how you stressed that frame? This is the general case and not something specific to Seth's situation. I kind of assume in my head that I'm pretty much limited to a crash replacement policy after a short time riding a new bike and I don't go down all that much anymore. On a road bike, I think it should be useful as long as you haven't crashed that frame, but MTB is tough I think.

    Having ridden with Seth once or twice and riding the same trails all the time, I was pretty much sure I would fall into the camp of thinking he should look for a crash replacement. Then we got to the part about a baseball bat and being unwilling to send him a new frame. I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. I'd be in the same boat thinking that I was getting the run around. Seriously? Their FA is hitting it with a bat? Was it a calibrated bat at least?

  87. #87
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    an impact is an impact, and i am pretty sure rocks aren't calibrated and neither is each rider. I'd rather have a baseball bat than one of those cheesy controlled & predictable testing machines.
    And didn't Pinkbike do a carbon frame test where they basically smashed it with and against various things? I'd rather have the unpredictable than the predictable controlled test because its more real world with variables. just sayin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    an impact is an impact, and i am pretty sure rocks aren't calibrated and neither is each rider. I'd rather have a baseball bat than one of those cheesy controlled & predictable testing machines.
    And didn't Pinkbike do a carbon frame test where they basically smashed it with and against various things? I'd rather have the unpredictable than the predictable controlled test because its more real world with variables. just sayin
    Rider stress,jumps and such can be tested with a machine. Impact testing is just that. Slamming the frame against something or something against the frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wideawakejake View Post
    Who the **** tells a customer that they test with a baseball bat? That's some mid Evil shit right there .
    LMAO EXACTLY! bunch of idiots

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    I just noticed that between the 2 threads about this story on MTBR alone, it has almost 10k views already, is is pretty steadily growing... evil saved themselves how much.... $300, maybe $400 on a rear triangle by choosing to give me the shaft?

    I wonder how many people saved themselves the trouble and chose to cross evil bikes off their list after reading my story.

    good job evil, if you dont feel any regret by now, you should!

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    It goes to show...If you get a carbon bike, than you should go with a company that offers a long or lifetime warranty. And don't to anything to void it.

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    Or everyone thinks you are a douche nozzle and a consumer terrorist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    Or everyone thinks you are a douche nozzle and a consumer terrorist
    all good dude, when I get screwed TWICE by a company and then tell the story about it to other people and then I get labeled as the bad guy - thats on ya'll! yall can go live sadly ever after in shitty customer service land with a company that doesnt give two shits about you other than your money! all good, I'll take my money and local community influence elsewhere

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    It goes to show...If you get a carbon bike, than you should go with a company that offers a long or lifetime warranty. And don't to anything to void it.
    I will admit that I will probably never paint an in-warranty bike frame again, but yes, I agree with you

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    It's interesting to see companies respond to these things. It was a month ago that Spot was in a similar situation (minus the paint) where the Sampler YouTube guy cracked his frame. I don't think these small companies can afford but marketing budgets and hence they sure as hell can't afford bad press. If I were them I'd handle these things very delicately regardless of who is at fault. Companies going into "cover your ass" mode rarely does them any long term favors. Take care of the customer and the business will take care of itself.

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    It rarely, if ever helps the case of the company to respond quite honestly... 99% of the responses I have seen from company owners or marketing departments (not just in the mtb community) come off in 1 of 2 ways; pissed off and childish, or a 22 year old kid who just graduated with a marketing degree and is reading off a script.

    If I were a company owner and saw something like this post, my first plan of action would be to contact the dissatisfied customer directly, not get into a pissing contest on the internet.

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    So, to make a long story short, OP got a free, warranty replacement (albeit, after some haggling) for a frame which Evil decided had been crashed. THEN OP actually did crash it (after painting, against Evil's advice) and is upset Evil wants him to pay $650 for a replacement (MSRP = $3000, less the shock). Details like the bat for testing, arguments over shipping costs aren't really necessary here. I'd be pretty happy if this were my CS experience, frankly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjc21 View Post
    So, to make a long story short, OP got a free, warranty replacement (albeit, after some haggling) for a frame which Evil decided had been crashed. THEN OP actually did crash it (after painting, against Evil's advice) and is upset Evil wants him to pay $650 for a replacement (MSRP = $3000, less the shock). Details like the bat for testing, arguments over shipping costs aren't really necessary here. I'd be pretty happy if this were my CS experience, frankly.
    you're missing huge parts of this whole story in your summary.

    the original frame was NOT crashed - very clean crack - zero evidence of being crash related - evil still gives some absurd reason as to why they have concluded its not their fault and I need to pay

    back and forth drama ensues

    they finally give me a warranty replacement

    5 months later, I tip over stuck in my clip and crack the top tube of the warranty-replacement front triangle - contact evil - but I openly took full responsibility of the accidental damage and took it to a local carbon repair professional

    I gladly paid for the front triangle to be fixed - not blaming evil for anything at this point

    the carbon repair guy finds a crack in the rear triangle (also without evidence of crash/impact relation) - I contact evil - they knew the bike was painted and still told me to send it into them for warranty replacement review/coinsideration

    evil denies warranty - again with no real evidence to back it up - I get pissed but dont even argue this time - just told them to send me back my rear triangle - I pay return shipping and they send it back

    once I receive rear triangle, I find ANOTHER crack on the opposite chain stay also with zero evidence of impact

    evil then blames warranty denial on paint after the fact of telling me to send it in for warranty review

    horrible experience nobody should be happy with

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    Ive always thought a 20% (yes not including rear triangle) replacement is a fair price.

    I recently went through a problem with bike. Basically became me not catching a clevis bolt backing out while riding and eating through 50% of aluminum seat tube. Should have ensured those bolts were tight. However its happened to others same company. I didnt get near 20% of msrp more like 50%. I went another route because of other factors which arent relevant but i thought it was nice that something that I screwed up or didnt catch didnt put me out paying full price for a replacement.

    now in OPs comms with Evil the tact that was used with the baseball bat didn’t help things for sure.

    Was this a defect? Could be.

    What other product in any market if you crashed it and broke it would sell you another one for 20% of MSRP?

    Helmet industry that seems norm but if your crashed your new motorcycle what would you get?

    Seems like we got a pretty good thing with what is the norm with crash replacements.

    Maybe im crazy and dont expect a whole lot.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Ive always thought a 20% (yes not including rear triangle) replacement is a fair price.

    I recently went through a problem with bike. Basically became me not catching a clevis bolt backing out while riding and eating through 50% of aluminum seat tube. Should have ensured those bolts were tight. However its happened to others same company. I didnt get near 20% of msrp more like 50%. I went another route because of other factors which arent relevant but i thought it was nice that something that I screwed up or didnt catch didnt put me out paying full price for a replacement.

    now in OPs comms with Evil the tact that was used with the baseball bat didn’t help things for sure.

    Was this a defect? Could be.

    What other product in any market if you crashed it and broke it would sell you another one for 20% of MSRP?

    Helmet industry that seems norm but if your crashed your new motorcycle what would you get?

    Seems like we got a pretty good thing with what is the norm with crash replacements.

    Maybe im crazy and dont expect a whole lot.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have zero problem paying. crash replacement fee if I crashed the bike! but damn I mean, ive already paid $3000... add another $650 here, $400 here, before you know its I'll have sunk $5000 into a frame that I didnt even crash

    im not looking for free handouts when I break something, and at the same time im not trying to pay for problems I didnt cause either

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