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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I have zero problem paying. crash replacement fee if I crashed the bike! but damn I mean, ive already paid $3000... add another $650 here, $400 here, before you know its I'll have sunk $5000 into a frame that I didnt even crash

    im not looking for free handouts when I break something, and at the same time im not trying to pay for problems I didnt cause either
    I feel your pain. Im not talking your situation specifically.

    Im just saying in general its a pretty cool thing we have in this industry.

    I get it you spent the same $ with this company that you would have spent with any of the big companies and probably not be in this scenario. It sucks im sure.

    I think at this point you pay for the crash replacement and just sell the whole bike as a crash replacement frame as there is evil vibes with that bike, no pun intended. Just got to move on.




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  2. #102
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    Carbon frames are a funny thing when it comes to warranties. Spend too little, have no warranty. Spend too much, and crash replacements are expensive.

    If someone came to me wanting to buy a carbon frame, I'd point them towards a major manufacturer, not a boutique brand. $3000 for a carbon frame and having to play phone tag he-said-she-said sucks.

    EDIT: Then I got to thinking, what defines a boutique brand? How many frames need to be sold in order to not play games on warranties? It's easy to list Trek, Specialized, Giant, Kona as "big names" but Pivot and Santa Cruz are pretty good about warranties too. Hell, Turner, despite their size is pretty good about warranties.

    I guess the opposite question needs to be asked, has anyone been burned on a big name warranty?

    Aluminum frames might not be as rad, but because the frames without shocks are $1600-$1800, a replacement chainstay or front triangle isn't nearly as expensive if it is denied a warranty.
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  3. #103
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    I'll be blunt- I had a Sniper on order, the delivery delay gave me too much time to think about it. I now have a new TBcc3 frame in the basement waiting to be built up. Can't beat the SC warranty.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Carbon frames are a funny thing when it comes to warranties. Spend too little, have no warranty. Spend too much, and crash replacements are expensive.

    If someone came to me wanting to buy a carbon frame, I'd point them towards a major manufacturer, not a boutique brand. $3000 for a carbon frame and having to play phone tag he-said-she-said sucks.

    EDIT: Then I got to thinking, what defines a boutique brand? How many frames need to be sold in order to not play games on warranties? It's easy to list Trek, Specialized, Giant, Kona as "big names" but Pivot and Santa Cruz are pretty good about warranties too. Hell, Turner, despite their size is pretty good about warranties.

    I guess the opposite question needs to be asked, has anyone been burned on a big name warranty?

    Aluminum frames might not be as rad, but because the frames without shocks are $1600-$1800, a replacement chainstay or front triangle isn't nearly as expensive if it is denied a warranty.
    I'd rather not buy from the big 3 since most the time the geo is pretty generic and politics are brutal. There are smaller companies that do well with their warranties. Like the ones you mentioned, along Knolly. But you won't get a fly weight carbon frame from them either. But there is a risk you're going to take getting a carbon frame.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I'll be blunt- I had a Sniper on order, the delivery delay gave me too much time to think about it. I now have a new TBcc3 frame in the basement waiting to be built up. Can't beat the SC warranty.
    I believe this was smart. Same type of bike and the frame weight is a bit more. More peace of mine if you lay it down or kick a rock into the down tube or stay.

  6. #106
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    what baffles me is why the majority of people arent saying shame on evil and quite the opposite actually! im the one defending myself here... for what? im just a guy who spent $3k on a bike frame, rode the shit out of it properly at enduro events and the like (which the bike is marketed for), the frame breaks on literally multiple occasions and every time in which I have presented the story and sequence of events to you all, evil had ZERO respectable explanations, neither scientific or opinionated, yet ya'll side with them and label me the bad guy. all because I didnt shut my mouth and bend over and happily welcome getting screwed. the customer service guys at evil are grown men with competent minds. they shouldnt treat a customer in any way that they wouldnt want to be showcased to the rest of the entire world. regardless of the paint job, we know it didnt cause the frame failure(s). the very first (and my opinion the biggest) debacle happened before any type of paint job ever happened and they still handled it horribly. but nobody wants to talk about that time because its hardest to argue. most people against me sound like little birds "paint, paint, pa - paint!" I took full responsibility for the 2nd front triangle crack, didnt blame evil for that whatsoever. im not looking for free undeserved handouts, why would I own the front triangle and lie about the rear?

    moving forward I probably wont paint a frame again just to avoid potential headaches, but im honestly and personally over it at this point. ive already moved on to different bikes to replace the wreckoning with, but will continue to defend myself and my position in all this.



    society is so ass backwards nowadays. just indicates bigger problems

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    what baffles me is why the majority of people arent saying shame on evil and quite the opposite actually! im the one defending myself here... for what? im just a guy who spent $3k on a bike frame, rode the shit out of it properly at enduro events and the like (which the bike is marketed for), the frame breaks on literally multiple occasions and every time in which I have presented the story and sequence of events to you all, evil had ZERO respectable explanations, neither scientific or opinionated, yet ya'll side with them and label me the bad guy. all because I didnt shut my mouth and bend over and happily welcome getting screwed. the customer service guys at evil are grown men with competent minds. they shouldnt treat a customer in any way that they wouldnt want to be showcased to the rest of the entire world. regardless of the paint job, we know it didnt cause the frame failure(s). the very first (and my opinion the biggest) debacle happened before any type of paint job ever happened and they still handled it horribly. but nobody wants to talk about that time because its hardest to argue. most people against me sound like little birds "paint, paint, pa - paint!" I took full responsibility for the 2nd front triangle crack, didnt blame evil for that whatsoever. im not looking for free undeserved handouts, why would I own the front triangle and lie about the rear?

    moving forward I probably wont paint a frame again just to avoid potential headaches, but im honestly and personally over it at this point. ive already moved on to different bikes to replace the wreckoning with, but will continue to defend myself and my position in all this.



    society is so ass backwards nowadays. just indicates bigger problems
    What do you want? a cookie?

    By your own admission you rode the crap out of that bike (even corroborated by someone else), so did you really expect Evil--or any company for that matter--to hand you a new frame each time it breaks for riding it "properly" as you so put it? To me and probably others, this is the same situation as someone who buys a sporty car from a dealership, drives the crap out of it at HPDEs and expects the dealer to be their pit crew with zero costs to them. Gotta pay to play.
    Now from what you say Evil told you it seems they really dropped the ball how they handled the situation but then again you didn't exactly help your case by how you're handling this situation. Was it really necessary to posts multiple threads and try to blast this over multiple sites? What exactly was your end game here? Did you expect to shame Evil into giving you a free frame after seeing your posts?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    What do you want? a cookie?

    By your own admission you rode the crap out of that bike (even corroborated by someone else), so did you really expect Evil--or any company for that matter--to hand you a new frame each time it breaks for riding it "properly" as you so put it? To me and probably others, this is the same situation as someone who buys a sporty car from a dealership, drives the crap out of it at HPDEs and expects the dealer to be their pit crew with zero costs to them. Gotta pay to play.
    My car is warrantied for track usage as long as I follow their guide.

    I expect an Evil enduro bike to be able to survive being ridden to hell and back, that's kind of the point of it.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    What do you want? a cookie?

    By your own admission you rode the crap out of that bike (even corroborated by someone else), so did you really expect Evil--or any company for that matter--to hand you a new frame each time it breaks for riding it "properly" as you so put it? To me and probably others, this is the same situation as someone who buys a sporty car from a dealership, drives the crap out of it at HPDEs and expects the dealer to be their pit crew with zero costs to them. Gotta pay to play.
    Now from what you say Evil told you it seems they really dropped the ball how they handled the situation but then again you didn't exactly help your case by how you're handling this situation. Was it really necessary to posts multiple threads and try to blast this over multiple sites? What exactly was your end game here? Did you expect to shame Evil into giving you a free frame after seeing your posts?
    should I expect a $3k enduro mountain bike frame with withstand enduro racing? isnt the term "enduro" in itself racing? I didnt abuse this bike past its intended use. the warranty period set forth by a company kind of advertises their general expectancy of their own shit to last for, right? evil offers 3 year warranty for their frames, id expect it to last about 3 years. not break multiple time in HALF that time. hell the evil wreckoning is even displayed as being used as a DH bike. I mean how much more extreme does the riding get? im not evil kenevil over here jumping 40 buses and 2 spinning helicopters on it, or doing huge sucks to flat.

    evil sort of set my expectation for longevity with their 3 year warranty. sorry you seem to feel like the frames are disposable and shouldnt last very long.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    What do you want? a cookie?

    By your own admission you rode the crap out of that bike (even corroborated by someone else), so did you really expect Evil--or any company for that matter--to hand you a new frame each time it breaks for riding it "properly" as you so put it? To me and probably others, this is the same situation as someone who buys a sporty car from a dealership, drives the crap out of it at HPDEs and expects the dealer to be their pit crew with zero costs to them. Gotta pay to play.
    Now from what you say Evil told you it seems they really dropped the ball how they handled the situation but then again you didn't exactly help your case by how you're handling this situation. Was it really necessary to posts multiple threads and try to blast this over multiple sites? What exactly was your end game here? Did you expect to shame Evil into giving you a free frame after seeing your posts?
    I don't follow your logic or analogy here... so if you buy a new Corvette, and you take it to a track day and blow the motor with 10k miles on the car then Chevrolet shouldn't have to warranty the motor? They market that car as a super car, the commercials even show it being raced and beat to hell. Same with Evils frames, they have commercials and marketing pictures showing the bike having the piss ridden out of it.

    I don't know what your local trails look like or how much you have traveled, but if you think that mountain bikes should be babied then you are in the wrong sport.

  11. #111
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    I will also throw in one other point here: I went to AngelFire over Memorial Day weekend, and Evil had a tent set up out there with a bunch of demo bikes that they were letting people ride. That to me says that they acknowledge that their bikes are made to be ridden hard, those trails aren't exactly mild XC.

    One other observation I made, was that MOST people I saw pulled off the side of the trail looking at and tweaking their bikes were on Evils. I don't know if that's because they were clunked out demo bikes or if people were having legitimate problem, but it was enough that I noticed.

  12. #112
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    Ahh Angel Fire cant wait to go back...

    Ok back on point.

    The guy has moved on.

    Take aways, shit happens, be prepared to prove your case to a bike manufacturer with a failure. If it doesnít go your way. Pay for the discounted crash replacement and sell the bike.

    Move on to a different company.




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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    regardless of the paint job, we know it didnt cause the frame failure(s).
    That's a pretty big assumption and I don't think anyone has established that. There are a lot of variables and it certainly could have compromised it, two cracks in different locations could indicate a structural problem. That could be on Evil, it could be because of the way it was stripped/painted, but there isn't any real evidence that the paint work didn't compromise the frame and it is certainly a possibility.

    Fine, the first breakage, they could have handled it better. The baseball bat thing seems a bit ridiculous at first glance, but I'm not sure how you would plan for impact testing, the often quoted Santa Cruz video has them hitting it against a wall, which isn't much better. In any case, I don't really see that as relevant, maybe a silly and needless comment, but it doesn't really mean much. That said, I would have been irritated they took so long to reach a decision and get back to me. I think that's a fair complaint. Ultimately, though, they replaced it.

    The rear triangle, though, that's on you. Again, I'd agree having you send it back was probably a mistake, but it sounds like they were going to try and work with you and you got a bit hostile/rude towards the end and they changed their mind. This is where they could have given you leeway, but chose not to. They told you painting the frame would void the warranty, you did it anyway, that's on you. I can understand completely why they do that considering they have no insight into how the frame was stripped and repainted. There are ways it could have been done that would compromise the frame.

    I've seen a frame they replaced before it shipped out, it looked beat to hell, paint was missing off the frame, there were several cracks, it seriously looked like it fell off the mountain or off a car rack on the highway. So there are other variables in this case that led to your experience.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I don't know what your local trails look like or how much you have traveled, but if you think that mountain bikes should be babied then you are in the wrong sport.
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  15. #115
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    I with you here Seth. You buy an expensive bike, ride it the way a mountain bike should be ridden and you get the BS runaround when you break MULTIPLE frames.

    If Evil had any accountability or ethic, they'd be kissing your ass after the first breakage.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I'll be blunt- I had a Sniper on order, the delivery delay gave me too much time to think about it. I now have a new TBcc3 frame in the basement waiting to be built up. Can't beat the SC warranty.
    could have gone Primer. Been out since 2016 with no issues, weighs same as TB with more travel and at least as rigid. $500 less too.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I'll be blunt- I had a Sniper on order, the delivery delay gave me too much time to think about it. I now have a new TBcc3 frame in the basement waiting to be built up. Can't beat the SC warranty.
    Yea, you lucked out. SC is the best bet to avoid fiascos like this. Going thru this thread, I really wonder if Evil even have qualified CFD ppl working for them. These type of failures really points to not just at layup flaws, but design flaws, ie. lack of proper talent. Yikes. Really, a freaking baseball bat!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    My car is warrantied for track usage as long as I follow their guide.

    I expect an Evil enduro bike to be able to survive being ridden to hell and back, that's kind of the point of it.
    Porsche? Do you spend any time on Rennlist? This is less black and white than you'd think, unfortunately.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    an impact is an impact, and i am pretty sure rocks aren't calibrated and neither is each rider. I'd rather have a baseball bat than one of those cheesy controlled & predictable testing machines.
    And didn't Pinkbike do a carbon frame test where they basically smashed it with and against various things? I'd rather have the unpredictable than the predictable controlled test because its more real world with variables. just sayin
    If your test for frame failure stress is hitting it with a baseball bat where you have no idea of the force delivered itís of very limited usefulness. However, maybe itís good enough for Evil.

    If your failure analysis is to simply take another frame and hit it until you get a similar break, Iím going to call that useless and shoddy engineering. Just because you can break it that way doesnít mean that was how this specific break happened.

    Like I said in my post, I would assume that I was paying a crash replacement rather than a warranty for any bike Iíve ever dumped. However, I would start to question a company that told this was their failure analysis test and then refused to return my frame. My BS detector would be flashing at that point.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    However, I would start to question a company that told this was their failure analysis test and then refused to return my frame. My BS detector would be flashing at that point.
    Hell yes. Mentioning the bat just lets me know what kind of morons we are dealing with here.

  21. #121
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    Evil Bikes Sucks. They post inaccurate Geo numbers regarding STA for nearly 2 years and have shitty paint and a poor approach when someone answers the phone at headquarters. 3 strikes and your out.

    BTW, you get the reward of them now raising the price for their frames which are just not up to par for what your now paying so it's like the quadruple whammy.
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  22. #122
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    I have grown up on the trails in Austin and between the known trails and the secret sauce they put bikes to the test. No one seems to believe that.. maybe more so then back when I was hammering and cracking Titus frames over and over among some frames...99 - 2013. I ride hard and unforgiving..I learned real quick I need great CS and warranty with a company that backs it's products. I know one at least one person in my little click now that Evil is off the list. That was right after reading this.

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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I don't follow your logic or analogy here... so if you buy a new Corvette, and you take it to a track day and blow the motor with 10k miles on the car then Chevrolet shouldn't have to warranty the motor? They market that car as a super car, the commercials even show it being raced and beat to hell. Same with Evils frames, they have commercials and marketing pictures showing the bike having the piss ridden out of it.

    I don't know what your local trails look like or how much you have traveled, but if you think that mountain bikes should be babied then you are in the wrong sport.
    LMAO The small print in all those ads is "closed course, professional driver...." There are tons of examples from multiple car manufacturers where just because you buy a car marketed one way only to be flatly denied any kind of warranty work because that was only marketing and it's not meant to be used in that way. I would expect a bike brand to be the same way, since a warranty really only is meant to cover manufacturer defects. Now what falls under "manufacturer defect" is what's really the whole discussion of this thread.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    LMAO The small print in all those ads is "closed course, professional driver...." There are tons of examples from multiple car manufacturers where just because you buy a car marketed one way only to be flatly denied any kind of warranty work because that was only marketing and it's not meant to be used in that way. I would expect a bike brand to be the same way, since a warranty really only is meant to cover manufacturer defects. Now what falls under "manufacturer defect" is what's really the whole discussion of this thread.
    Maybe they should put some of those BSO warning stickers on their bikes, like the ones you find at Wally World. "Not intended for off-road use" or something along those lines.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    LMAO The small print in all those ads is "closed course, professional driver...." There are tons of examples from multiple car manufacturers where just because you buy a car marketed one way only to be flatly denied any kind of warranty work because that was only marketing and it's not meant to be used in that way. I would expect a bike brand to be the same way, since a warranty really only is meant to cover manufacturer defects. Now what falls under "manufacturer defect" is what's really the whole discussion of this thread.
    That is different. Read it carefully. Where the eff are you supposed to ride a mtb? In your reference to track day car, it involves using a car at a track, ie. it's fundamentally a car intended for use on public roads but instead used on a race track. Hence the loophole Porsche and Ferrari use to void warranties.

    However a MTB is meant to be ridden on typical trails, is it not? Its not used outside its intended purpose, unless what you are really saying is that we should not be using our mtbs on actual mtb trails? And in that case it would literally be false advertising.

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    Just adding water to a fire here, lol, I just wrapped up my 2018 Wreckoning build and Mike at Evil Bikes was able to exchange a Calling frame my local shop mis-ordered. I have nothing negative to say about Evil Bikes as my tailbone is in its happy place.

    As for carbon fiber and the bonding agent used when assembly, my forte is automotive axles and when Eaton switched to carbon fiber clutch discs the bonding agent could not hold up against synthetic oils. Note: I do not know what chemical causes this to happen just my $0.02 speaking from experience.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    LMAO The small print in all those ads is "closed course, professional driver...." There are tons of examples from multiple car manufacturers where just because you buy a car marketed one way only to be flatly denied any kind of warranty work because that was only marketing and it's not meant to be used in that way. I would expect a bike brand to be the same way, since a warranty really only is meant to cover manufacturer defects. Now what falls under "manufacturer defect" is what's really the whole discussion of this thread.
    So by your logic, they can market mountain bikes with videos and pictures of guys hitting 8' drops and hammering down rocky descents. When you actually buy one as a consumer, you should really just safely pedal it around your neighborhood?

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNMBrosMTB View Post
    Just adding water to a fire here, lol, I just wrapped up my 2018 Wreckoning build and Mike at Evil Bikes was able to exchange a Calling frame my local shop mis-ordered. I have nothing negative to say about Evil Bikes as my tailbone is in its happy place.

    As for carbon fiber and the bonding agent used when assembly, my forte is automotive axles and when Eaton switched to carbon fiber clutch discs the bonding agent could not hold up against synthetic oils. Note: I do not know what chemical causes this to happen just my $0.02 speaking from experience.
    well im honestly happy you got the bike you wanted. but at MINIMUM I would expect a bike company to correct an incorrect order. that should be expected and not even worth mentioning unless it was the opposite and they refused to correct a mistake that a shop ordered the wrong bike.

    thats like a father saying "im the worlds best dad because I feed my kids!" - no sir, that what your SUPPOSED to do!

  29. #129
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    It is funny how many people are defending Evil bikes. If anything this should be a lesson in customer service for them. The customer is always right remember. Even if the customer was at fault, they should at least work with them to help find a solution and get to the bottom of the problem rather than just demanding more money. I like reading these stories because more often then not, I will not do business with a company like this. I cant count how many times I have had parts fail whether it be my fault or a design flaw and had the company work with me and these are companies that I will keep doing business with. There are just way too many options out there to put up with crappy customer service. Its like eating McDonalds or Burger King when you could eat Chickfila..Ha!

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan9r View Post
    It is funny how many people are defending Evil bikes. If anything this should be a lesson in customer service for them. The customer is always right remember. Even if the customer was at fault, they should at least work with them to help find a solution and get to the bottom of the problem rather than just demanding more money. I like reading these stories because more often then not, I will not do business with a company like this. I cant count how many times I have had parts fail whether it be my fault or a design flaw and had the company work with me and these are companies that I will keep doing business with. There are just way too many options out there to put up with crappy customer service. Its like eating McDonalds or Burger King when you could eat Chickfila..Ha!
    I completely agree. and its even worse in the evil owners fanboy club page. lol

    but I am a fair person, and dont agree with the customer is always right. because they simply arent. and im sure a lot of people do lie to get their way but im not one of those people. and they didnt even TRY to give me a respectable explanation to defend their claim. it was literally more like "well, something might've hit the side there even though I cant really provide any further explanation or see any signs of impact, but I'm gonna go ahead and say thats probably what happened". it was just flat out bad. and I didnt go public after the first debacle which was IMO even worse. after the second time is when I decided that being quiet about the level of service wasnt the right thing to do

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    It's interesting to see companies respond to these things. It was a month ago that Spot was in a similar situation (minus the paint) where the Sampler YouTube guy cracked his frame. I don't think these small companies can afford but marketing budgets and hence they sure as hell can't afford bad press. If I were them I'd handle these things very delicately regardless of who is at fault. Companies going into "cover your ass" mode rarely does them any long term favors. Take care of the customer and the business will take care of itself.
    SPOT could have handled their initial response better for sure but that bike WAS crashed....repeatedly per the guide on the trip. All you have to do is watch the guys videos and he's a complete $hit-show on bikes. I'd never let him ride one of mine. Oh and the other fact is that even though it WAS crashed and that was all documented on video, SPOT replaced the bike immediately.
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    SPOT could have handled their initial response better for sure but that bike WAS crashed....repeatedly per the guide on the trip. All you have to do is watch the guys videos and he's a complete $hit-show on bikes. I'd never let him ride one of mine. Oh and the other fact is that even though it WAS crashed and that was all documented on video, SPOT replaced the bike immediately.
    Add to that the fact that he titled the videog in a manner to get drama, "I broke a frame in MOAB." He literally set up SPOT to take the fall with the "unknown reasons" bs when he had the shock under inflated and he crashed over and over again whilst ignoring safety measures.

    Both cases, this one and the Spot one are ironic. This thread started out with actual unknown failures and Evil respond with a moronic reply with the baseball bat test. Result, posters defend Evil.

    Spot video, starts clear cases of negligence and abuse by rider leading to failure. Result is that posters blame Spot.

    Scratches head... does not compute.

  33. #133
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    Evil bikes should just hire Gary Busey to handle all their CS and warranty claims. That would fit perfectly with their scientific baseball bat testing.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I completely agree. and its even worse in the evil owners fanboy club page. lol
    It's always amusing to watch confirmation bias at work. Safe to assume you experienced some ad hominem attacks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    So by your logic, they can market mountain bikes with videos and pictures of guys hitting 8' drops and hammering down rocky descents. When you actually buy one as a consumer, you should really just safely pedal it around your neighborhood?
    LOL A lot of stuff gets marketed that way. A warranty is a warranty against defects. Is it a defect when you crack a carbon frame after bombing down rocky trails during racing? That's when things get messy quickly and whether you like it or not until a company specifically spells out what qualifies under the warranty then it's always going to be up to their discretion.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Now from what you say Evil told you it seems they really dropped the ball how they handled the situation
    Wait, so Evil fvcked up and the customer is feeling raw... yet they should just STFU and deal with it..? That makes no sense.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Wait, so Evil fvcked up and the customer is feeling raw... yet they should just STFU and deal with it..? That makes no sense.
    they as in evil or they as in me? im thinking theres a type-o

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    You think Evil is bad. Try Niner Read some of their horror stories.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    LOL A lot of stuff gets marketed that way. A warranty is a warranty against defects. Is it a defect when you crack a carbon frame after bombing down rocky trails during racing? That's when things get messy quickly and whether you like it or not until a company specifically spells out what qualifies under the warranty then it's always going to be up to their discretion.
    Except products come with an implied warranty, too, one of "merchantability". That is, the product must perform for its intended purpose. So a mountain bike must be able to ride trails and rough terrain. And, arguably, if a company's marketing material includes the product doing those 8' hucks, the company is making a claim that the product is implicitly suitable for that purpose, too. Should it ever get to that point.

    Costly to prove and companies usually have deeper pockets than we do.

  40. #140
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    So the lesson learned:
    If you are a heavier rider or if you ride hard you better stick with a company which can make durable frames and has a stellar free replacement warranty policy.
    Unless you don't mind paying each time for it...

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    Santa Cruz is killing it for a reason...

    ...now if they'd just stop spec'ing SRAM brakes

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Santa Cruz is killing it for a reason...

    ...now if they'd just stop spec'ing SRAM brakes
    Quite honestly, I wish SRAM would just throw in the towel with brakes already. I recently bought a higher trim Enduro that came with the Codes. I was not excited since I had my go-round with Guides and thought they were potentially the worst brakes I had ever ridden.

    Did a couple rides with the Codes and thought "meh, these aren't bad"... switched bikes to my SS (with XTs) for a few rides then got back on the Enduro. Decided that I just generally hate SRAM brakes. I can't for the life of me figure out who they are making their levers for. Their engineers must have the most oddly shapen fingers.

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    lol. it's like the shimano (and magura even) engineers spent time on motocross bikes when they designed their levers, and SRAM just spitballed it.

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    Failures like what you describe are the fault of crappy manufacturing. if you can find a place to do NDT ultra-sonic testing, I would wager one hundred dollars that you would find significant voids all over that frame. That would be perfect evidence for manufacturing defect.

    Voids in a carbon frame make the tubes significantly weaker than designed.. As soon as you have plies that are not symmetrical, as in where a void occurs, stress in those layers goes through the roof.

    Google Tsai-Wu or Tsai-Hill composite failure criteria and find some good reading on the subject...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Santa Cruz is killing it for a reason...

    ...now if they'd just stop spec'ing SRAM brakes
    Yes. I trust SC carbon and their warranty 100%. Great company. In their defense, they are back to offering a nice mid level XT build. But the rest of builds have SRAM brakes, which are still garbage.
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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    So the lesson learned:
    If you are a heavier rider or if you ride hard you better stick with a company which can make durable frames and has a stellar free replacement warranty policy.
    Unless you don't mind paying each time for it...
    Also begs the question of when the hell are some of these bike manufacturers going to start putting more reasonable weight limits on their current frames, which are really created for weight weenies, while also designing/manufacturing high end frames that are meant for 200+ lbs riders?

    It is BS that most, if not all, frame manufacturers create a single duty frame with such a wide variance in rider weight which results in frame cracks. You'd think one of these manufacturers would be smart enough to be responsible with their frame's weight limits.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    Also begs the question of when the hell are some of these bike manufacturers going to start putting more reasonable weight limits on their current frames, which are really created for weight weenies, while also designing/manufacturing high end frames that are meant for 200+ lbs riders?

    It is BS that most, if not all, frame manufacturers create a single duty frame with such a wide variance in rider weight which results in frame cracks. You'd think one of these manufacturers would be smart enough to be responsible with their frame's weight limits.
    How much of a weight limit you want.? Some don't publish, but of those that do, they're generally (I know there's some weight weenies stuff) around 300#...some more, some less.

    I'm a big dude and have broken frames, but generally they were several years old and ridden hard. Manufacturing defects are different and likely show up regardless of rider weight.

  49. #149
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    When the cycling industry, has pretty much for the last 30 years, been all about saving grams and boasting about light frames, strength IS going to suffer. No way around that unless new materials are developed. One could argue that is exactly what happened with carbon... but if you don't use enough materials in the carbon building process, strength will again suffer.

    I still have and still occasionally ride a high end aluminum HT frame from the mid-90s and there are no signs of any cracking. Show me the same with modern day frames older than 5 years. I'm 210 lbs and have a high end al Yeti that cracked in 5 years (1000 miles) not on a frame weld, but in a place where stress was not accurately understood. Weight limit on that frame is 250. How exactly does that happen?

    For the OP, one could argue defect with regards to his experience with Evil. My opinion is it is because of chasing that industry competitiveness of light weight boasting results in lack of carbon material to create a proper, durable frame. It may only get worse with riders exploring the limits of what MTBs can do.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    When the cycling industry, has pretty much for the last 30 years, been all about saving grams and boasting about light frames, strength IS going to suffer. No way around that unless new materials are developed. One could argue that is exactly what happened with carbon... but if you don't use enough materials in the carbon building process, strength will again suffer.

    I still have and still occasionally ride a high end aluminum HT frame from the mid-90s and there are no signs of any cracking. Show me the same with modern day frames older than 5 years. I'm 210 lbs and have a high end al Yeti that cracked in 5 years (1000 miles) not on a frame weld, but in a place where stress was not accurately understood. Weight limit on that frame is 250. How exactly does that happen?

    For the OP, one could argue defect with regards to his experience with Evil. My opinion is it is because of chasing that industry competitiveness of light weight boasting results in lack of carbon material to create a proper, durable frame. It may only get worse with riders exploring the limits of what MTBs can do.
    Metals have better understood (or at least it's easier to calculate) fatigue and endurance limits than composite materials but nothing lasts forever. All these frames are made overseas, so i'd wager part of the problem is due to quality control.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    For the OP, one could argue defect with regards to his experience with Evil. My opinion is it is because of chasing that industry competitiveness of light weight boasting results in lack of carbon material to create a proper, durable frame. It may only get worse with riders exploring the limits of what MTBs can do.
    Your rant has nothing to do with this thread. And on topic the OP didn't have an old bike, isn't a whale, and was riding the bike how it is generally intended to be ridden. In cases like this at least in the first instance of frame failure, that is typically indicative of a manufacturing flaw not due to neglect in design as you are alluding to.

  52. #152
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    Maybe carbon bikes aren't getting weaker but American bike riders are getting fatter?

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  53. #153
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    Santa cruz carbon bikes have been gaining weight in the past few years.
    So I think the era of chasing the lightest in the expense of durability is over.
    I accually don't like the current trend much, since I am a light rider and would like a lighter frame.

    My medium SC TRc frame was 4.75lbs with a shock...
    I really doubt I will see such a light full suspension carbon frame from them again.

    Also, Tallboy v1 was a very light bike, V2 got just a little bit heavier and v3 even more.

    Makes sense, since they offer a lifetime warranty now...

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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    they as in evil or they as in me? im thinking theres a type-o
    They = customer/you. The person I quoted seemed to think you should shut up yet admits Evil handled it wrong. I think your grievance has merit.

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Santa cruz carbon bikes have been gaining weight in the past few years.
    So I think the era of chasing the lightest in the expense of durability is over.
    I accually don't like the current trend much, since I am a light rider and would like a lighter frame.

    My medium SC TRc frame was 4.75lbs with a shock...
    I really doubt I will see such a light full suspension carbon frame from them again.

    Also, Tallboy v1 was a very light bike, V2 got just a little bit heavier and v3 even more.

    Makes sense, since they offer a lifetime warranty now...

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    The bikes getting heavier makes sense for strength. It would make sense to offer a lighter bike without or less of a warranty for those that want a lighter bike. With less weave and epoxy it should cost less to produce...they probably would charge more for it lol.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Your rant has nothing to do with this thread. And on topic the OP didn't have an old bike, isn't a whale, and was riding the bike how it is generally intended to be ridden. In cases like this at least in the first instance of frame failure, that is typically indicative of a manufacturing flaw not due to neglect in design as you are alluding to.
    HTF would you know it is indicative of a flaw in manufacturing? Did you inspect the frame yourself? If you are associated with Evil, state it. You state everything like you are stating fact where at least I said opinion and I don't take your opinion as fact.

    F-off with your insults too!

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Santa cruz carbon bikes have been gaining weight in the past few years.
    So I think the era of chasing the lightest in the expense of durability is over.
    I accually don't like the current trend much, since I am a light rider and would like a lighter frame.

    My medium SC TRc frame was 4.75lbs with a shock...
    I really doubt I will see such a light full suspension carbon frame from them again.

    Also, Tallboy v1 was a very light bike, V2 got just a little bit heavier and v3 even more.

    Makes sense, since they offer a lifetime warranty now...

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    It's why I originally ordered a Sniper Trail. With the extra time to think about it as a fat ass I decided warranty trumped weight.
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  58. #158
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    More weight does not necessarily mean more strength, same with wall thickness. If they use a lower quality material, layup process, etc, then they'd have to use more material to have the same stiffness/durability, which would add weight.

    The frames are getting heavier, my Carbon Smuggler is 6.5lbs, but I'm not completely confident it's not due to fewer concerns over weight in the bike industry allowing usage of lower grade materials/processes which results in better margins. I just have a hard time believing we're seeing an increase in quality at the same cost, although reducing warranty submissions may be a consideration, for sure, it seems like that'd not be a major cost justification for frames that are rarely broken.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    HTF would you know it is indicative of a flaw in manufacturing? Did you inspect the frame yourself? If you are associated with Evil, state it. You state everything like you are stating fact where at least I said opinion and I don't take your opinion as fact.

    F-off with your insults too!
    Reading comprehension? The gentleman did not insult you far as I can tell. He just rightly pointed out that your post ó that I generally agree with ó has nothing to do with this thread. Chill.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    HTF would you know it is indicative of a flaw in manufacturing? Did you inspect the frame yourself? If you are associated with Evil, state it. You state everything like you are stating fact where at least I said opinion and I don't take your opinion as fact.

    F-off with your insults too!

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Reading comprehension? The gentleman did not insult you far as I can tell. He just rightly pointed out that your post ó that I generally agree with ó has nothing to do with this thread. Chill.
    Yeah, whatever. They were insults none-the-less. You can have your opinion too.


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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    More weight does not necessarily mean more strength, same with wall thickness. If they use a lower quality material, layup process, etc, then they'd have to use more material to have the same stiffness/durability, which would add weight.

    The frames are getting heavier, my Carbon Smuggler is 6.5lbs, but I'm not completely confident it's not due to fewer concerns over weight in the bike industry allowing usage of lower grade materials/processes which results in better margins. I just have a hard time believing we're seeing an increase in quality at the same cost, although reducing warranty submissions may be a consideration, for sure, it seems like that'd not be a major cost justification for frames that are rarely broken.
    It could be because these frames are getting longer and longer with the whole Enduro craze. The extra length is compounded by the requirement to maintain their strength. And the expectation is that one will ride even chunkier and chunkier terrain. The longer the frame is, the harder it is to make strong. All this I would guess adds together to make the trail happy frames heavier and heavier. The flip side is that there are plenty of 2kg XC frames still being made so the industry can make silly light frames when it wants to.

  63. #163
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    nope
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  64. #164
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    Youíre crazy if you think they should replace your frame after someone else repainted it and you crashed it into rocks!!

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    I had been pursuing a '18 SC HTLT, since Canfield has been struggling to release their '18 lineup. Then I demo'ed a Wreckoning and a HTLT back-to-back while riding Slim Shady and Hi-Line in Sedona.

    The Wreckoning solidly out-performed the HTLT in tech climbing and descending. The HTLT out-performed the Wreckoning on smooth climbs and while riding in the saddle. So, then I had a conundrum on my hands: should I buy the HTLT or Wreckoning? I set about doing research on both to ensure I had a complete picture.

    After speaking with quite a few local owners, I've gotten quite a bit of negative firsthand responses regarding the durability of Evil bikes, and the maintenance required with the Delta suspension...multiple warranty exchanges on multiple frames, frequent and expensive replacement of the suspension link bearings. This (in addition to a few threads like this one) has convinced me to buy a HTLT, despite the fact that I feel like the Wreckoning feels better going both up, and down.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmesb View Post
    I had been pursuing a '18 SC HTLT, since Canfield has been struggling to release their '18 lineup. Then I demo'ed a Wreckoning and a HTLT back-to-back while riding Slim Shady and Hi-Line in Sedona.

    The Wreckoning solidly out-performed the HTLT in tech climbing and descending. The HTLT out-performed the Wreckoning on smooth climbs and while riding in the saddle. So, then I had a conundrum on my hands: should I buy the HTLT or Wreckoning? I set about doing research on both to ensure I had a complete picture.

    After speaking with quite a few local owners, I've gotten quite a bit of negative firsthand responses regarding the durability of Evil bikes, and the maintenance required with the Delta suspension...multiple warranty exchanges on multiple frames, frequent and expensive replacement of the suspension link bearings. This (in addition to a few threads like this one) has convinced me to buy a HTLT, despite the fact that I feel like the Wreckoning feels better going both up, and down.
    My first test ride of The HTLT I didn't like it. This year I rode one with a coil and it was nice. Just not as nice as my coiled Riot. Still waiting for Canfield myself as I'd like a stiffer linkage.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    My first test ride of The HTLT I didn't like it. This year I rode one with a coil and it was nice. Just not as nice as my coiled Riot. Still waiting for Canfield myself as I'd like a stiffer linkage.
    Same here. It did fine on smooth climbs just like above poster but the small bump stuff totally sucked and the super slack STA was just dumb as a taller guy. Overall it was very "beige" but a cherry bike with nice finishes. My buddy has worked on an off with Santa Cruz CEO over the years as an engineer etc and he said VPP just isn't all that great and they haven't done anything revolutionary with it. Leads to it being stiff off the top which i just dont like...pay 5k for a bike and get 3/4th of a functional suspension. I can see why a coil might be really helpful in overcoming those issues.

    It was SUPER stable tho in hard landings and I liked that...but it seems like with most newer bikes and shocks that this kind of stability is now common.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Youíre crazy if you think they should replace your frame after someone else repainted it and you crashed it into rocks!!
    Read the thread, bro. SMH
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    Same here. It did fine on smooth climbs just like above poster but the small bump stuff totally sucked and the super slack STA was just dumb as a taller guy. Overall it was very "beige" but a cherry bike with nice finishes. My buddy has worked on an off with Santa Cruz CEO over the years as an engineer etc and he said VPP just isn't all that great and they haven't done anything revolutionary with it. Leads to it being stiff off the top which i just dont like...pay 5k for a bike and get 3/4th of a functional suspension. I can see why a coil might be really helpful in overcoming those issues.

    It was SUPER stable tho in hard landings and I liked that...but it seems like with most newer bikes and shocks that this kind of stability is now common.
    I love techy climbs and with an air shock it hung up too much. I thing (Im assuming)with the VPP the Antisquat is to high at sag and it fights the air shocks stiction or platform. It peddles well with a coil. I'm short so the STA is fine for me but could see why someone tall would have an issue.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    You think Evil is bad. Try Niner Read some of their horror stories.
    I have had nothing but stellar service from Niner's warranty/customer service. There were known issues with their previous Jet RDO frame at the seat tube. I had 4 replaced under warranty. Not to mention there is a 5 year warranty on their frames and only 3 years for Evil bikes. And Santa Cruz is lifetime. Only 3 years for a $3,000 frame is absurd.
    Not to mention Niner specifically states they expect their frames to be raced and it does not void the warranty.

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by epiphreddy View Post
    I have had nothing but stellar service from Niner's warranty/customer service. There were known issues with their previous Jet RDO frame at the seat tube. I had 4 replaced under warranty. Not to mention there is a 5 year warranty on their frames and only 3 years for Evil bikes. And Santa Cruz is lifetime. Only 3 years for a $3,000 frame is absurd.
    Not to mention Niner specifically states they expect their frames to be raced and it does not void the warranty.
    Ask Niner if you can strip, repaint it and maintain warranty.
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  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by epiphreddy View Post
    I have had nothing but stellar service from Niner's warranty/customer service. There were known issues with their previous Jet RDO frame at the seat tube. I had 4 replaced under warranty. Not to mention there is a 5 year warranty on their frames and only 3 years for Evil bikes. And Santa Cruz is lifetime. Only 3 years for a $3,000 frame is absurd.
    Not to mention Niner specifically states they expect their frames to be raced and it does not void the warranty.
    Must be why I see Niner frames/bikes with deep discounts all over the place.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Must be why I see Niner frames/bikes with deep discounts all over the place.
    To be fair, I don't think Niner's warranty/customer service has much to do with why no one wants their bikes. Maybe that was true in the past...but if it was just the warranty/customer service, why does everyone still want a Yeti???

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    Dang, this thread is haunting me. I just spent the weekend demoing a variety of bikes at the Evergreen Mountain Bike festival. While I really liked the Hightower LT a lot, the new Wreckoning really spoke to me. It climbed, turned , and jumped great. Maybe not as fast as a HTLT, but dang close. My heart says go with the Wrecker but my brain says be safe and buy a HTLT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by potterymouth View Post
    Dang, this thread is haunting me. I just spent the weekend demoing a variety of bikes at the Evergreen Mountain Bike festival. While I really liked the Hightower LT a lot, the new Wreckoning really spoke to me. It climbed, turned , and jumped great. Maybe not as fast as a HTLT, but dang close. My heart says go with the Wrecker but my brain says be safe and buy a HTLT.
    I feel the same way.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Ask Niner if you can strip, repaint it and maintain warranty.
    Actually painting a frame should not matter to whats underneath which you cannot see anyways without an xray or scanning. If the defect is there it's still there after painting. And the only way to see said defect is not with your eyeballs.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Santa cruz carbon bikes have been gaining weight in the past few years.
    So I think the era of chasing the lightest in the expense of durability is over.
    I accually don't like the current trend much, since I am a light rider and would like a lighter frame.

    My medium SC TRc frame was 4.75lbs with a shock...
    I really doubt I will see such a light full suspension carbon frame from them again.

    Also, Tallboy v1 was a very light bike, V2 got just a little bit heavier and v3 even more.

    Makes sense, since they offer a lifetime warranty now...
    I think SC massively overbuilds their carbon frames to stem warranty claims (which I like, because I'd rather my frame not break in the first place). When I bought my SC I compared the carbon C frame weights with the alloy weights and it appeared that the carbon frames were less than half a pound lighter, which to me is negligible. The CC frames are about 1 lb lighter than alloy, which is better but to my mind not worth the thousands that they cost.

    Carbon offers advantages to designers over alloy but if manufactures want to build frames that don't crack at reasonable prices, weight savings usually goes out the window.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Actually painting a frame should not matter to whats underneath which you cannot see anyways without an xray or scanning. If the defect is there it's still there after painting. And the only way to see said defect is not with your eyeballs.
    It does matter, just like painting a helmet. There are chemicals involved and and you don't know if there ends up being a reaction.

    Back when I used to ride, the same applied to motorcycle helmets- paint it and no warranty.
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    It does matter, just like painting a helmet. There are chemicals involved and and you don't know if there ends up being a reaction.

    Back when I used to ride, the same applied to motorcycle helmets- paint it and no warranty.
    That's just lazy. Carbon frames that are sold raw, are meant to be painted after sale. The fact that some will void over paint is not a technical issue, but one of pushing blame onto the customer, ie. convenient excuses to void warranties.

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    That's just lazy. Carbon frames that are sold raw, are meant to be painted after sale. The fact that some will void over paint is not a technical issue, but one of pushing blame onto the customer, ie. convenient excuses to void warranties.
    Not at all, when a manufacturer paints they can control prep, primer and paint. When a customer paints they cannot and anyone of the above can compromise the integrity of the frame.

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  81. #181
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    And, the more I dig and snoop around the more negative stuff I find with almost no body saying Evil took care of their issue outside of a deep discount on a replacement.
    My SC Tallboy is 4 yrs old No Problems

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not at all, when a manufacturer paints they can control prep, primer and paint. When a customer paints they cannot and anyone of the above can compromise the integrity of the frame.

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    You are creating a scenario to disprove it. The problem is you have to prove the paint will lmao, break down the resin. That is really... c'mon. Prove it, see it is kind of an obtuse and random thing? The resin holding the frame together is almost impervious lol.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    You are creating a scenario to disprove it. The problem is you have to prove the paint will lmao, break down the resin. That is really... c'mon. Prove it, see it is kind of an obtuse and random thing? The resin holding the frame together is almost impervious lol.
    No, you do not. You keep using the Magnusson Moss act in a completely Princess Bride fashion.

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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, you do not. You keep using the Magnusson Moss act in a completely Princess Bride fashion.

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    And its not preposterous to claim paint will break down the epoxy resins that have been cured into a stable compound? The paint should only affect the warranty as far as the original paint. But we know this is not how companies like to approach things so they look for outs to void the whole thing. It's hard to fathom that you guys cannot or are willing to ignore the distinction.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    And its not preposterous to claim paint will break down the epoxy resins that have been cured into a stable compound? The paint should only affect the warranty as far as the original paint. But we know this is not how companies like to approach things so they look for outs to void the whole thing. It's hard to fathom that you guys cannot or are willing to ignore the distinction.
    Not at all. Neither is it preposterous to claim that prep work, whether physical or chemical, can cut through your hypothetical barrier.

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  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not at all. Neither is it preposterous to claim that prep work, whether physical or chemical, can cut through your hypothetical barrier.

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    Still waiting to read what paint will eat thru a carbon frame?

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Still waiting to read what paint will eat thru a carbon frame?
    Any paint using a solvent that interacts with the resin. You are also continuing to "strategically" ignore the prep side of the equation.

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  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Any paint using a solvent that interacts with the resin. You are also continuing to "strategically" ignore the prep side of the equation.

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    What solvent is going to break down a stable compound? And what prep too since you are the expert here?

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    What solvent is going to break down a stable compound? And what prep too since you are the expert here?
    Any solvent that has an interaction with it. Prep is easy, sanding, self etching, etc. The wrong prep also makes an interaction more likely. Also, let's not forget the dangers of finishing work: baking, most common forms of polishing, etc. all have negative consequences.

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  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Any solvent that has an interaction with it. Prep is easy, sanding, self etching, etc. The wrong prep also makes an interaction more likely. Also, let's not forget the dangers of finishing work: baking, most common forms of polishing, etc. all have negative consequences.

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    More guessing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by potterymouth View Post
    Dang, this thread is haunting me. I just spent the weekend demoing a variety of bikes at the Evergreen Mountain Bike festival. While I really liked the Hightower LT a lot, the new Wreckoning really spoke to me. It climbed, turned , and jumped great. Maybe not as fast as a HTLT, but dang close. My heart says go with the Wrecker but my brain says be safe and buy a HTLT.
    I was between the HT and the Following a couple years back, went with the HT and am shocked at the durability of the HT. I'm on my 3rd season on it and after 1800 miles of hard riding its never creaked or squeaked. The pivots have never come loose or felt sloppy and it feels as tight and solid as the day I got it.

    I also have two friends with Evils that creak like an old staircase.
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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    More guessing?
    No guessing going on here. Epoxy is a chemical compound. As it can be dissolved it is not chemically inert, therefore any number of things can interact with it. Prep work can cut through it. Finishing work can result in pinpoint levels of high heat being applied. Any of these can weaken the part.

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    "Must be why I see Niner frames/bikes with deep discounts all over the place."

    Can't beat getting a 5 year valid warranty on a very nice frame at "deep discounts" as you mention. The $1,200 saved can be put forth on the rest of the bike. I've never spent more than $2K on a frame and feel like my bikes are as nice as anything out there.

    "Ask Niner if you can strip, repaint it and maintain warranty."

    Don't know why anyone would want to do that and to think the warranty would remain intact is comical.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by epiphreddy View Post
    "Must be why I see Niner frames/bikes with deep discounts all over the place."

    Can't beat getting a 5 year valid warranty on a very nice frame at "deep discounts" as you mention. The $1,200 saved can be put forth on the rest of the bike. I've never spent more than $2K on a frame and feel like my bikes are as nice as anything out there.

    "Ask Niner if you can strip, repaint it and maintain warranty."

    Don't know why anyone would want to do that and to think the warranty would remain intact is comical.
    Maybe you missed the OP
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  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No guessing going on here. Epoxy is a chemical compound. As it can be dissolved it is not chemically inert, therefore any number of things can interact with it. Prep work can cut through it. Finishing work can result in pinpoint levels of high heat being applied. Any of these can weaken the part.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Yes, most people won't just ad a pound of paint over another pound of paint. They'll sand it down and primer it. If the presses isnt safe for epoxy than it can weaken it. So can heat curing if the solvent hasn't dissipated. There are safe ways to paint carbon frames. And there are ways that are not safe.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Yes, most people won't just ad a pound of paint over another pound of paint. They'll sand it down and primer it. If the presses isnt safe for epoxy than it can weaken it. So can heat curing if the solvent hasn't dissipated. There are safe ways to paint carbon frames. And there are ways that are not safe.
    Thanks, it isn't rocket science but it doesn't fit the bash a company narrative either

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  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No guessing going on here. Epoxy is a chemical compound. As it can be dissolved it is not chemically inert, therefore any number of things can interact with it. Prep work can cut through it. Finishing work can result in pinpoint levels of high heat being applied. Any of these can weaken the part.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Its not that difficult like you are making it out to be. And for that matter making it sound like a carbon frame is this fragile thing that cannot even handle heat. It was amusing regardless. Pro tip, paint a carbon frame like it was fiberglass. There are many guides on the internets. And all that is really besides the point I originally made which is that Evil is using paint as an excuse to void warranty. They are not alone in that, but the point is to recognize the motive.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Its not that difficult like you are making it out to be. And for that matter making it sound like a carbon frame is this fragile thing that cannot even handle heat. It was amusing regardless. Pro tip, paint a carbon frame like it was fiberglass. There are many guides on the internets. And all that is really besides the point I originally made which is that Evil is using paint as an excuse to void warranty. They are not alone in that, but the point is to recognize the motive.
    It has nothing to do with difficulty level. It has to do with consequences if done incorrectly, something a manufacturer has no control/knowledge of if done by a third party. No, a carbon frame cannot handle the heat of several common paint polishing techniques. Personally I wouldn't run even a DA on it as the tube size is too small to effectively disperse the heat build up. Take all those things together and you have a pretty good handle on their motive of voiding painted frames.

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  99. #199
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    I don't have a horse in this race, but here is what I see in the pictures.

    Downtube - No apparent impact, but it is a very strange place for a crack. Some sort of impact most likely happened, but without some sort of proof Evil should have replaced it no questions asked.

    Front chainstay - Pretty obvious impact marks that look like they took the paint off down to the carbon. My personal experience is that sharp rocks (that is all we have here in Socal too) will find their way up to those spots especially at speed. Rocks thrown up by front wheel bounce around a lot. Crash replacement should have been a pretty easy discussion.

    Mid chainstay - Again a strange place for a crack, but no impact mark. Warranty no question.

    If you want the best customer service/warranty then you will have to stick with SC, Ibis, Trek and maybe a few other. Intense can be hit or miss (BTW I was the one that witnessed the Tracer head tube issue). Have had positive and negative experiences with them.

    A few examples of Ibis CS for you. Got a new HD a while ago and the left rear stay was very close to the rotor and the bolt would rub under hard flex. Called up Ibis because there was a QC issue. I did not ask for a replacement, but they insisted and I had a new rear end in less than 48 hours. Second experience was hitting a pedal on a rock at speed hard enough to bend the spindle 30 degrees. It cracked the seat tube/BB junction. Emailed Ibis on a Saturday afternoon asking for a crash replacement. Got a response within 30 minutes asking for a picture of the damage. Sent the picture over and their response was to ask me what color replacement frame I wanted under full warranty. Their view was the frame should not have failed even under that impact.

    I originally bought SC based in part on their CS reputation. Through more than 10 bikes I have not had to contact them once about an issue. Probably jinxing myself now, but their bikes and QC are the best in the industry.

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    *Doesnt read entire thread*

    Maybe stick to aluminum?

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