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  1. #1
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    Dean and Ionic do not warrantee rust

    OK, it's been ages since this problem started but I have had enough. About 2-3 years ago I bought a frame from Ionic, which some of you may know are the steel side of Dean bikes. I'd say about 6 months after I got the frame I noticed unusal colouring around the stops, which looked like rust was forming. The photos are current so you get the idea of how the rust has developed. Now, am I asking too much that a frame with a life time warrantee should not do this? I don't believe any frame should do this. I don't feel safe riding this bike and have replaced the frame with a quality product instead. This is a big dissapointment becuase otherwise I really liked the frame.



    After being on this forum for a while I have noticed that Dean don't have a great reputation, and I wish I had seen that before I got the frame, as there are a lot of better choices out there. I figured I could handle a long wait for a frame, which I got. I also got poor communication and shocking warrantee service. Their come back is that "Wear from normal use or environmental exposure is not covered by this warranty. and rusting of a steel frame is environmental". Well, no, this was neither wear nor environmental, but due to bad work that promoted rust. It started under perfect paint, on a new frame, and there is no rust on faced surfaces, just the stops. Spectrum painted the frame, but I am still not sure who is at fault here. Regardless, I feel Ionic/Dean should cover the warrantee if they decide to not paint in house. Do any of you frame makers have an idea how this could happen?
    Last edited by finch2; 05-30-2011 at 04:29 PM. Reason: correction

  2. #2
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    wow

    thats bad.

  3. #3
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    The bad news: just about nobody has a warranty that covers rust. It certainly seems like Spectrum dropped the ball here. Was there primer under the powder? Probably not. I would have imagined one or the other parties involved would've made you some offer, but since they didn't you're basically SOL for relief that way.

    The good news: this is not a safety issue. I'd just strip the paint/powder from the affected areas (down to clean bare metal), prime it and do a homebrew wet paint. Since the rust is coming from the surface, rather than underneath, it likely has only gone so far. The really bad rust stories are the ones where water has sat in the bottom of the seat tube for long periods of time. That'll rust right through, eventually.

  4. #4
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    What tube is that?

    Top tube, down tube or seat or chain stay? If you wrote that, sorry I missed it in the post. It looks, and this is just conjecture, that a salty or corrosive substance got on the frame in a spot with a little chip or scratch in the paint and allow oxidation to take place.

    It sucks, I would not be really happy with the folks who painted the bike, but demanding someone warranty something like this is kind of ridiculous. My solution would be to find a local powder coater, pay to have it stripped and repainted and tell all my friends how much the paint sucked originally.

    It doesn't hurt to ask if this is considered normal, or if one of the interested parties would be willing to help, but personally I would never have considered contacting anyone at Dean/Ionic or Spectrum about this. Wear and tear are not covered by any warranty.

    Good luck with getting the result you want. I would really have that checked out to make sure it is just surface rust.
    Last edited by scarkinsmel; 05-28-2011 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #5
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    what gets me thinking is that the frame is just 2-3 years old and as long as there was no abuse (i trust the OP here) this should clearly be a warranty issue.

    this is not a spot, where rust should show up under the given circumstances - starting after 6 months. IMO looks much like spectrum powderworks screwed it up, after my let's say mixed personal experiences with them it doesnt surprise me really. lucky me it was a ti frame, this way the damage they can do should be limited ...

    take it back to the builder and have it warrantied.
    Last edited by hellocook; 05-28-2011 at 06:29 AM.

  6. #6
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    That sucks. As others have said, that looks repairable. Strip the frame, treat the rust and get it powder coated and you should be good. Too bad they won't help you out in this case.

  7. #7
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    Get an aluminum, carbon or scandium frame. You obviously live in a very high humidty or salty environment and you store your bike outside. I painted a Schwinn Stingray with a spray paint can and never got rust like that in So California, ever, for years of abuse. Do you live in a salt spray environment near the beach, because I see rust like that on cars too, near beach front property.

  8. #8
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    Blame the painter

    The guides were most likely brazed on with silver brazing wire, for which you use flux on the contacting surfaces to keep the metal from oxidizing and preventing the silver from sticking things together.

    That's normal. However, when the flux doesn't get *completely* removed prior to painting, it prevents the paint from adhering to the metal AND attracts moisture like crazy. That is most likely what happened here.

    So the bottom line is:
    -The painter blew it.
    -Many builders/manufacturers would warranty the paint/powdercoat job. Many will only do so for a limited period of time (one year, for example) however - this problem should have been obvious well before it got this bad.
    -The frame itself is fine. Take it to a local paint/powdercoat place and have it re-done. For $100 you'll be back out there.
    -You probably should have resolved this situation one way or another when you first noticed the problem, not let it continue until now.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  9. #9
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    finch2:

    i would again insist on having it warrantied. after all you have life time warranty on the frame against manufacturing defects and it should not matter if you have waited doing it.

    plan b: forget about it, not worth the time and the money is gone anyhow (that's what i decided doing after being treated poorly by spectrum powderworks.

    plan c: after again seeing people raving about spectrum without even having the frame in their hands yet (!) i could not help myself and decided to post my experience with them in the web. so, that's what i ended up doing: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...80819#poststop
    at least this help pthers to be more careful with spectrum ...

  10. #10
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    How did the rust get that bad? Are you riding in the rain / snow often? Even on a bare frame, I don't expect that kind of rust unless you're hosing down your bike after riding in mud all day and night or commuting in bad conditions regularly. Worst case, you could just get the frame stripped and powdercoated; should've been done by the owner a long time ago. I look at that pic and don't blame the manufacturer, I blame the owner for negligence.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the replies guys...

    John Biker - I can understand that rust is an eventuality, but on a new frame? I'd like to know how it happened too, and if I find out, I'll post it up. I will probably do as you suggested, mainly becuase I have no options. At least I'll see the extent of damage.

    Sarki - Yes, the top tube. In all fairness I will guess that once the corrosion broke through the paint and the paint flaked off, it was exposed to weather, and sweat. The damage was done well before that point though. I'll repeat..this was NOT wear and tear. the frame was new, in absolutely perfect condition. It took no time at all for rust to show. I disagree about who to contact, but I did also investigate a local repair. It boils down to cost, and who I think should be responsible. I think the manufacturer is definitely the first person to tell of a fault in their process. Whethere they bother to reply or deal with it is another matter.

    Hellcook - thanks for that. Yes, a new frame. What is more, I should elaborate. This is the worst point of rust, and there is another just as bad, again on a stop on the top tube. In fact 90% of all fittings have some indication of rust developing. A little discolouration on some, which would not bother me if stable. There are stops on the down tube showning viens of rust growiing now, and I guess it's just time till they all get it. Yes, I agree on your options. With as much going on in everyday life I have done as much as I am willing to try to talk to Ionic to get a satisfactory result. This posting is a last resort as I am left with nothing but the feeling of being shafted.

    randy - ha, far from it, I live 60km inland on the driest continent on earth. We rarely have rust issues here. In fact I have my orignal 25 year old steel road frame with far less problems. Way ahead of you too, I replaced it with Ti

    walt - thanks for that walt. That is exactly what I was wondering about. Way ahead of you though. I first mentioned it in passing 6 months after getting it, but it wasn't bad then. I hoped it was a freak vein of rust which would get no worse. I mentioned it again one year later, wanting a result that time as it was obvious the problem was epidemic. Unlike you and other decent makers, Ionic don't bother replying to emails and I sent countless emails to them with no reply. I think the last time I heard from them before just now, John said he'd ask Spectrum for me. My problem with repairs is I don't yet know the extent of damage, and it will probably require all new stops as well as paint and cost a lot. More than I think is worth investing in this frame. I got quotes for 300AUD wet coat...not including any rectification work. PC was cheaper at $150, but that is just the start.

    Illancord - as mentioned before, I live ina steel friendly environment. I have had steel frames in the past. The rust issue appeared under perfect paint and was not wear but as Walt points out likely bad prep, which makes sense as all stops seem to be affected. Contrary to your assessment I made sure i did not touch or alter the frame in any way while i was trying to secure a result on warratee. Working on the frame without permission of the manufacturer would be problematic...however, now I am free to do so. I asked for a verdict a long time ago before it got this bad for that very reason.

  12. #12
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    Bummer.

    I would recommend always calling. Email is easy to ignore.

    It sounds like you've done everything right and gotten screwed, which really sucks. If you were in the US, I'd tell you to bring the bike to me and I'd have the stops replaced and new powdercoat for ya in like a week, for <$200. But I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to ship from down under!

    Good luck, and sorry to hear about this.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  13. #13
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    thanks walt...really, it could be an option for me to send it to you. The problem is postage at over $100 each way minimum. I should have called I think oyu are right, but at the end of the day I am sure I'd have got the same answer. I might get back to you if I can't find a good option locally

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I would recommend always calling. Email is easy to ignore.

    It sounds like you've done everything right and gotten screwed, which really sucks. If you were in the US, I'd tell you to bring the bike to me and I'd have the stops replaced and new powdercoat for ya in like a week, for <$200. But I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to ship from down under!

    Good luck, and sorry to hear about this.

    -Walt
    There is a lesson to be learned you folks. If you are looking for a custom steel frame, Waltworks should be one of your first choices.
    Thanks to www.weavercycleworks.com for my awesome bike frames!

  15. #15
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the frame wouldn't even allow the rear wheel to run straight it was so far out of alignment in the rear end?

    This thread should be made a sticky, so noone else has to endure this mob's crap.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCarpet View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the frame wouldn't even allow the rear wheel to run straight it was so far out of alignment in the rear end?

    This thread should be made a sticky, so noone else has to endure this mob's crap.
    Hi MC...well it wasn't that bad, but yes, the rear wheel ran a little out - probaby a few mm. Enough to bug me so much I ended up putting the slider dropout into my overhead router and took off just under 1mm to get it centred again. The frame wasn't perfect but I never would have complained if it wasn't for way I was treated. Another gripe I had was the fork hitting the downtube after I mentioned this prior to the build....but then again, I mentioned rust as well, which is why I went solid colour and primer. Little good that did me.

  17. #17
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    I haven't read the whole thread but steel does rust. I don't care for paint either plus I don't like rust and that is why most of my bikes are titanium. Rust never sleeps. So I can see where they would not warranty it it. Buy titanium next time.
    OB1 Kielbasa

    One is good!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juanmoretime View Post
    I haven't read the whole thread but steel does rust. I don't care for paint either plus I don't like rust and that is why most of my bikes are titanium. Rust never sleeps. So I can see where they would not warranty it it. Buy titanium next time.
    It may be a good idea to read a thread before posting. It's not long. Everything you just said is redundant.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    thanks walt...really, it could be an option for me to send it to you. The problem is postage at over $100 each way minimum. I should have called I think oyu are right, but at the end of the day I am sure I'd have got the same answer. I might get back to you if I can't find a good option locally
    There are several Australian frame builders I can think of.
    GripSport would be a good place to start.
    I have been lead to believe they will quote on repairs via e mail with a photo.
    I live in a Backwater called Perth and even we could get that repaired locally.
    Duct tape iz like teh Force. It has a Lite side and a Dark side and it holdz the Universe together.

  20. #20
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    The question seems to be who is responsible for the cost, not whether or not it can be repaired locally.

  21. #21
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    Funny you should say that Mitzikatzi as grip sport was one of the original quotes, and I emailed them again yesterday. Cosgrove is local but the wet coat (even though I prefer it) is a little more than I want to spend on this frame. I might ask him if he does PC. I'm hoping that PC will be fine if done properly....this whole episode has really made me wary of PC. Anyone else I should know about? I'm open to ideas.

    Cheers MC...I'm not banking on Ionic/Dean coming to the party. If I don't get it done soon I may be up for more cost. If walt and some others think the tube is OK, I may avoid throwing the frame into the bin.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCarpet View Post
    The question seems to be who is responsible for the cost, not whether or not it can be repaired locally.
    Often with warranty claims the owner is responcible for the postage costs. In this case it might be cheaper for the owner to pay for the repair than return the frame to the US.

    On advantage of buying thru a local shop. It is easy to return defective products.

    I also think letting it get that bad (after 3 years) the owner has contributed to the overall "damage" thru neglect.

    The OP made the comment about getting it repaired locally. I suggested gripsport. The Op made the comment about sending the frame to Walt. There are plenty of places here that could do that repair if you know were to look.
    Duct tape iz like teh Force. It has a Lite side and a Dark side and it holdz the Universe together.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2 View Post
    Funny you should say that Mitzikatzi as grip sport was one of the original quotes, and I emailed them again yesterday. Cosgrove is local but the wet coat (even though I prefer it) is a little more than I want to spend on this frame. I might ask him if he does PC. I'm hoping that PC will be fine if done properly....this whole episode has really made me wary of PC. Anyone else I should know about? I'm open to ideas.

    Cheers MC...I'm not banking on Ionic/Dean coming to the party. If I don't get it done soon I may be up for more cost. If walt and some others think the tube is OK, I may avoid throwing the frame into the bin.

    What State/City are you in?

    Maybe you could just have the section around the repair painted in a band. Maybe add a band of paint to another tube to match?
    Duct tape iz like teh Force. It has a Lite side and a Dark side and it holdz the Universe together.

  24. #24
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    Mitz...$100 postage I can wear if the frame is repaired and returned. As mentioned before, I would never alter or modify a product before warrantee was settled. I suppose I need to repeat myself again...
    I contacted Ionic many many times but they never replied. I specified I wanted an answer before the problem got worse. All in all, if you can imagine watching perfect paint start to bubble and grow viens, BEFORE andy paint started coming off, you'd understand the damage was already done. Scraping away the paint and trying any old method to stop spread would definitely voided any chance of warrantee. What about the other damage onthe frame? Am I suppsed, as somone with no expertise in paint on metal, to strip the whole frame and paint it? Now that I have their answer I can feel free to move on repairs.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitzikatzi View Post
    What State/City are you in?

    Maybe you could just have the section around the repair painted in a band. Maybe add a band of paint to another tube to match?
    I really don't trust that I could do a decent job, and I really want to avoid a dodgy looking one. If I do it myself that will be a last resort. This frame was meant to be a high quality specialist job, not a shoddy mess. It will at a minimum need 3 stops removed and new ones brazed on as well as a host of other issues under paint I probably can't see.

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