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  1. #1
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    Chinese carbon 29er frames?

    Is there a reason why fleabay is full of cheap 26er no-name frames from the Far East, along with road bikes, but there doesn't seem to be any availability of 29ers? How tough would it be to produce? Anyone want to start a new company?

  2. #2
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    search the archivesfor the past week or so... at least one company is coming with a size 17 for now. They were only planning up to a size 19 so I stopped caring.

  3. #3
    Bro Mountainbiker
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    Supposedly size 17.5 is available now.
    Size 16 and 19 are coming out in a couple months but dont expect to get your hands on one till the beginning of the year. (I had been corresponding over email with an very very Asian dude named Loice)

    http://www.gotobike.com.cn/

    I would be interested in importing and selling on Ebay if i could find a good deal on em. These seem to be 600 USD a piece shipped from China.

    I am getting super stoked thinking about these frames. Hopefully they hold up as well as the 26er model.
    Raised in a Chicken-Coop by Chickens

  4. #4
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    goodness that gotobike 29er looks good, see also AXMAN

  5. #5
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    did anyone order the 17.5 and ride it at least round the block?

  6. #6
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    Ok, next question. Why roll it out in limited sizes? Any word on time frames for bigger ones? Thanks.

  7. #7
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    Throw some Specialized decals on there and you're good to go...




  8. #8
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    **deleted**
    for being a pretty stupid, off-topic comment
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 09-02-2010 at 11:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    the same reason it's full of all kinds of other cheap, no-name stuff from china?
    if the frame delivery & support is like the wheels that come out of there... good luck!
    you get what you pay for, and it doesn't appear to be much.
    Are you "doing some science" here, meltingfeather?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Are you "doing some science" here, meltingfeather?
    nope, just offering an opinion. last i checked, that was ok. do you have anything to add or still just sniping?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    nope, just offering an opinion. last i checked, that was ok. do you have anything to add or still just sniping?
    Is your opinion based on any experience or is it like your opinion on Edge rims?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Is your opinion based on any experience or is it like your opinion on Edge rims?
    same old story, eh?
    we've been through this, and you're not going to get me into one of your signature, off-topic, back-and-forth battles where you try and enforce some sort of morality on the internet with sophisiticaed syntax and nowhere to go.
    if you're going to freak out again i'll put you back on my ignore list.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    same old story, eh?
    we've been through this, and you're not going to get me into one of your signature, off-topic, back-and-forth battles where you try and enforce some sort of morality on the internet with sophisiticaed syntax and nowhere to go.
    if you're going to freak out again i'll put you back on my ignore list.
    If you had experience you would have said so. Calling you out on your ignorant BS IS contributing to the thread. I guess sometimes it is about the hype, right?

    BTW, I have purchased 5 chinese frames over time, 3 through Pedal Force and 2 direct, and have had no problems of any kind. No reason to fear these products even with their unconventional distribution.

  14. #14
    Its got what plants crave
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    I personally was pretty impressed by the quality (and durability) of the 26er version of the Ebay carbon hardtail. A friend who rides equally as hard as I do but weighs more had good luck with his for several seasons. I think he built something else up due to a knee injury or otherwise he'd still be riding it. It was light and looked to be pretty good quality. Many people are also riding the road version with great success. Since I never buy complete bikes anymore, these are a lucrative option for me. Anyway, when they come out, and come down to about the price point that the 26 inch version are at, I'll probably buy one as my "fast" bike.
    Ocala Mountain Bike Association - www.omba.org

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    If you had experience you would have said so. Calling you out on your ignorant BS IS contributing to the thread. I guess sometimes it is about the hype, right?
    It doesn't take too discerning an intellect to see that my quick opinion is based on an experience with carbon wheels.
    An off-the-cuff assessment doesn't need any basis and an opinion can't really be "BS" unless I don't believe it myself. Of course that doesn't matter if what you want to do is jump into an off-topic tirade. You can not dispute or call BS on what something "appears to be" to me or how I value it. I know, it feels kind of silly to point out something so basic, but it puts your whole "contribution" in context.
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    BTW, I have purchased 5 chinese frames over time, 3 through Pedal Force and 2 direct, and have had no problems of any kind. No reason to fear these products even with their unconventional distribution.
    Now if this had been all you had posted in this thread, how much more valuable would your contribution have been?
    If I say I don't like vanilla ice cream, would you "call BS" on that for the benefit of the world?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    You can not dispute or call BS on what something "appears to be" to me or how I value it.
    Sure I can, after all you can judge the merits of Edge rims based on a ride around a parking lot on a borrowed bike. Remember?

    Besides, it's not the content of your opinion, it's the lack of experience. Not all opinions are of equal merit just because everyone feels entitled to have one. For someone who prides himself on facts over hype, one would think you would be more careful. At least the sig is gone now.
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    Now if this had been all you had posted in this thread, how much more valuable would your contribution have been?
    No more valuable. My experience is simply an anecdote, but anyone with an open mind will see it is a common one. I have no point of view to push here and have no desire for my "contribution" to be "more valuable" than anyone else's, except yours.

  17. #17
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    laughable. it's easy to see what you're after, and it doesn't merit a response.
    all the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    laughable. it's easy to see what you're after, and it doesn't merit a response.
    all the best.
    The only thing laughable here is your opinion which is not based on experience or anything legit for that matter...just give it a rest and go away.

    In a year or two they'll be quite a few of these carbon frames floating around ebay. demand eventually creates supply.

  19. #19
    TR
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    There are 2 big threads on generic Chinese frames over on RBR. Both have large numbers of satisfied riders posting within.
    There are also 2 seperate threads about generic Chinese wheels. Again many happy customers.
    I have a Chinese frame myself. It is a Santa Cruz Tallboy.
    Blanket negativity about Chinese manufactured frames and wheels is simply ignorant.

  20. #20
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    +1..

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR
    Blanket negativity about Chinese manufactured frames and wheels is simply ignorant.
    I'd agree. I just had a bad experience with a wheelset and said if delivery and support is similar, good luck. I don't see how given the qualification, it's "blanket negativity," but I guess it doesn't matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    I just had a bad experience with a wheelset and said if delivery and support is similar, good luck. I don't see how given the qualification, it's "blanket negativity," but I guess it doesn't matter.
    Interesting how eager you were to make that point considering the original post.

    "you get what you pay for, and it doesn't appear to be much." - meltingfeather's free advice

  23. #23
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    I just want a link to one of these frames I can purchase now (or soon)!!
    Thanks to www.weavercycleworks.com for my awesome bike frames!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manicmtbr
    I just want a link to one of these frames I can purchase now (or soon)!!
    http://www.gotobike.com.cn/main.asp

  25. #25
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    I recently got this frame. It weighed in at 2.64lbs and it looks as good if not better than the Superfly I had. I'm not in anyway saying it is better, I'm just saying it has a beefier downtube and headtube. I haven't built it up and I'm not sure I'm going to. I have frames coming out of my ears right now, so if anyone wants it for what I paid I'd probably let it go. I'll try to post pictures of it in a bit.
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  26. #26
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    pics:








    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    I recently got this frame. It weighed in at 2.64lbs and it looks as good if not better than the Superfly I had. I'm not in anyway saying it is better, I'm just saying it has a beefier downtube and headtube. I haven't built it up and I'm not sure I'm going to. I have frames coming out of my ears right now, so if anyone wants it for what I paid I'd probably let it go. I'll try to post pictures of it in a bit.
    Can you PM me the price and size of the frame?

    Thanks much!
    My Bike: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=49

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  28. #28
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    how about telling all of us?

  29. #29
    Eric the Red
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    That thing is probably made in the same factory by the same people as some big brand bikes. The Chinese are fully capable of producing the level of quality they are contracted to produce. Your chances of being satisfied with that frame are just as good as if you bought Specialized, Giant or whoever.

  30. #30
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    It was 3 weeks and $640 to my door. Just think how much more it would be if it was actually branded...
    Last edited by 1-bar; 09-01-2010 at 10:09 PM.
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  31. #31
    1*14*29*2.1 & 1*1*29*2.4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It was 3 weeks and $640 to my door.
    awesome...thanks.

  32. #32
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    Great price!
    How many frames do you have? I mean...not an exact number, but you do have several right?
    And what size are them?
    My Bike: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=49

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It was 3 weeks and $640 to my door. Just think how much more it would be if it was actually branded...
    How is the tyre clearance? does it at least fit a 2.25 ralph without rub issues?

  34. #34
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    Syl3- I'm sure a 2.25 would fit.

    DHbomber- I'm not a reseller, I just bought one frame in a medium size 17.5", ett 23.3, cs, 17.5, HA 71.5. It's a beautiful frame, I just happen to have to many bikes right now to build it up which is why I'd consider selling it.
    Last edited by 1-bar; 09-02-2010 at 07:29 AM.
    C-DALE FLASH 29 Carbon 2 (19.6 lbs)
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Interesting how eager you were to make that point considering the original post.

    "you get what you pay for, and it doesn't appear to be much." - meltingfeather's free advice
    Yeah, definitely interesting. You showed me. Thanks, craig. I just can't believe how valiant and virtuous you are, protecting the internet from villains like me. The response to your efforts shows a consensus of gratefulness.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    The response to your efforts shows a consensus of gratefulness.
    Unlike you, I don't play to the crowd. It would appear, though, the consensus is that you should take your FUD elsewhere.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Unlike you, I don't play to the crowd.
    Do you actually believe this stuff or you just craft it for the effect?
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    It would appear, though, the consensus is that you should take your FUD elsewhere.
    Don't know what FUD is, but apparently my experience isn't the norm and can't be extrapolated to frames. Fair enough. It was an off-the-cuff remark based on an experience I alluded to, and while I don't care whether or not you think I should be careful based on what you ignorantly speculate that I'm proud of, I can accept that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  38. #38
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    Hey, I will pile on here too!
    I think the engineer here should be given a bumper sticker that says:

    THOSE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL, REALLY ANNOY THOSE OF US WHO DO!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    Don't know what FUD is, but apparently my experience isn't the norm and can't be extrapolated to frames.
    You don't seem to have any experience and what you do have related to wheels can't be extrapolated to anything.

    Your assumption is that because two products are made in the same country out of the same base material that they share some kind of similar build quality. Uhhh.... Since when does that apply to anything? That's like saying "I bought an American made Chevrolet car and it's paint faded and rusted away; therefore, all American made cars, trucks, vans, buses and motorcycles must be of similar poor quality."

    What if this is literally an unbranded Specialized frame? In reality there aren't many facilities that can even produce a carbon bike frame in quantity. A handful at best. Do you really think that given the price of raw materials alone that there would actually be that significant of a quality control between a Giant, Specialized, Scott, Trek, etc. that are also all produced in the same factory?

    It would cost more to let quality control slip for the one unbranded frame and then raise it back up for the branded frames again than it would to always maintain the same quality control level. Despite the number of horror stories flying about the net of Chinese carbon bikes with saw dust and card board fillers, I have yet to actually see one of these frames.

    What is obvious is that your "opinion" has absolutely zero merit and you don't understand economics or manufacturing.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33
    You don't seem to have any experience and what you do have related to wheels can't be extrapolated to anything. Your assumption is that because two products are made in the same country out of the same base material that they share some kind of similar build quality. Uhhh.... Since when does that apply to anything? That's like saying "I bought an American made Chevrolet car and it's paint faded and rusted away; therefore, all American made cars, trucks, vans, buses and motorcycles must be of similar poor quality."
    I think you're taking it a bit far with what I assumed. I deleted the comment because it was stupid. I really didn't mean to convey a blanket negativity of Chinese-manufactured carbon parts. It was an off-the-cuff remark based on a bad experience and it was dumb. Sorry. I deleted it.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33
    What if this is literally an unbranded Specialized frame? In reality there aren't many facilities that can even produce a carbon bike frame in quantity. A handful at best. Do you really think that given the price of raw materials alone that there would actually be that significant of a quality control between a Giant, Specialized, Scott, Trek, etc. that are also all produced in the same factory?
    It very well could be, though it looks like it came from a different mold, but the gist of what you're saying is what matters and I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33
    It would cost more to let quality control slip for the one unbranded frame and then raise it back up for the branded frames again than it would to always maintain the same quality control level. Despite the number of horror stories flying about the net of Chinese carbon bikes with saw dust and card board fillers, I have yet to actually see one of these frames. What is obvious is that your "opinion" has absolutely zero merit and you don't understand economics or manufacturing.
    I wouldn't go that far.
    The comment was meritless and stupid, and I'll own that. Going beyond that is baseless speculation and I've seen you around enough to know that you know I know a bit about manufacturing and economics, however little.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  41. #41
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    Any idea on the effective TT of the 17.5inch frame?

  42. #42
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    Dang...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O
    Is there a reason why fleabay is full of cheap 26er no-name frames from the Far East, along with road bikes, but there doesn't seem to be any availability of 29ers? How tough would it be to produce? Anyone want to start a new company?
    I'm as much of a 'Made in USA' kinda guy as I can be, but I might plunk down for one. I wanna build a budget light hardtail for racing. I loved my Access.

  43. #43
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    My concern is that since fabrication of CF components is labor intensive (otherwise, why would you be doing it in a low-cost labor country?) Why wouldn't the lower dollar frames be manufactured with a layup schedule that requires less work (and consequently less durable)? Also, one of the things that you're paying for with a "name brand" CF frame is that the vendor will do secondary QC inspections to verify that what comes out of the factory is what they spec'ed.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    Syl3- I'm sure a 2.25 would fit.

    DHbomber- I'm not a reseller, I just bought one frame in a medium size 17.5", ett 23.3, cs, 17.5, HA 71.5. It's a beautiful frame, I just happen to have to many bikes right now to build it up which is why I'd consider selling it.
    Oooohh! I'm sorry! I thought you had a lot of these frames...haha my mistake!
    Anyway...I need a large (it's for my dad) so thanks much! Thanks for the info!
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by pieterp
    Any idea on the effective TT of the 17.5inch frame?
    5924mm

  46. #46
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    I think you missed a decimal place

    Quote Originally Posted by finch2
    5924mm

    Cause that is almost 19.5 feet.

    If you make one with a 620mm eTT, I'm there.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I'm as much of a 'Made in USA' kinda guy as I can be, but I might plunk down for one. I wanna build a budget light hardtail for racing. I loved my Access.
    Performance is testing an Access carbon frame. For me that would be that way to go.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Cause that is almost 19.5 feet.

    If you make one with a 620mm eTT, I'm there.
    Oops That must be the xl ! Better move the decimal point one place....

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    Syl3- I'm sure a 2.25 would fit.

    DHbomber- I'm not a reseller, I just bought one frame in a medium size 17.5", ett 23.3, cs, 17.5, HA 71.5. It's a beautiful frame, I just happen to have to many bikes right now to build it up which is why I'd consider selling it.
    Do u still have this frame? Take it top tube is around 23.4?what is ur opinion. Get oNe of these or get the giant xtc 29er
    This colinago

  50. #50
    Waiting for Godot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minimalist
    Performance is testing an Access carbon frame. For me that would be that way to go.

    really? where did you get that info?
    Out riding, leave a message

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OilcanRacer
    really? where did you get that info?
    First here and found it confirmed on the Performance blog. Just google "Performance Access Carbon Frame".

  52. #52
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    That would be nice

    Quote Originally Posted by Minimalist
    Performance is testing an Access carbon frame. For me that would be that way to go.
    At least in that case, there would be somebody local to deal with warranty. Performance would warranty it if you backed over it with a truck.

    ... that is, it would rock if the geometry was good.

    *edit*

    Found the vid

    <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DmyFKXGVan8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DmyFKXGVan8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

    ... and the blog posting

    http://blog.performancebike.com/2010...il-at-burn-24/

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OilcanRacer
    really? where did you get that info?
    Read the Performance Blog. They have been racing them all year.



    As long as they dont dork it up with stupid decals, I will buy one.

  54. #54
    -bustin punks
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    Definitely needs more sideburn.

  55. #55
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    If Performance releases those frames without any garish Access decals I'd consider one.
    Amolan

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    Throw some Specialized decals on there and you're good to go...



    EXACTLY!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by weather underground
    EXACTLY!
    if you look closer you will see that they are not the same bike, they just look very similar just as most steel hardtail frames look very similar and most hyrdoformed aluminum hardtail frames look very similar.

    Carbon fiber works best with smooth curves and continuous lines, and now that engineers are really dialing in out optimal designs these features will become more and more universal

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    if you look closer you will see that they are not the same bike, they just look very similar just as most steel hardtail frames look very similar and most hyrdoformed aluminum hardtail frames look very similar.

    Carbon fiber works best with smooth curves and continuous lines, and now that engineers are really dialing in out optimal designs these features will become more and more universal
    let me guess.....you own a specialized carbon 29er hardtail? If I had paid that much just to had a retarded sticker on my frame when you could have bought basically the EXACT same frame for 1/4 the price, I would be defensive and look for ANY little caveat that would separate the two frames. As long as you are happy with it, that's all that matters. When you try and point out such miniscule differences, it makes you look silly.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by weather underground
    let me guess.....you own a specialized carbon 29er hardtail? If I had paid that much just to had a retarded sticker on my frame when you could have bought basically the EXACT same frame for 1/4 the price, I would be defensive and look for ANY little caveat that would separate the two frames. As long as you are happy with it, that's all that matters. When you try and point out such miniscule differences, it makes you look silly.
    nope I do not, I own a budget mail-order steel hardtail, and I've never owned a Specialized or a carbon bike. The differences are still enough for me to see that they aren't the same frame at all.

    If you re-read my comment you will see that I said nothing at all about relative quality or trying justify the Specialized frame. Good designs are being universally copied by everyone (including other large bike brands actually) so them not being the same frame and possibly not made by the same manufacturer doesn't necessarily make one worse or better than the other. Plus, quality is improving across the board too. I'm actually considering saving for one of the Performance carbon frames, but they haven't given much info yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    nope I do not, I own a budget mail-order steel hardtail, and I've never owned a Specialized or a carbon bike. The differences are still enough for me to see that they aren't the same frame at all.

    If you re-read my comment you will see that I said nothing at all about relative quality or trying justify the Specialized frame. Good designs are being universally copied by everyone (including other large bike brands actually) so them not being the same frame and possibly not made by the same manufacturer doesn't necessarily make one worse or better than the other. Plus, quality is improving across the board too. I'm actually considering saving for one of the Performance carbon frames, but they haven't given much info yet
    I saw your profile that you ride an on one inbred.(great frame) I apologize for making an assumption that you had one. It makes me sick when brand whores pay 4-5 times for a frame that is almost identical in all aspects just so they can hang it in their garage and *****-talk to people who don't know any better. Anyways, rant over and enjoy your inbred which is probably a better frame than either of the ones' being discussed in this thread.

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    Carbon Cheapies

    Yeah, I'm down for that. My buddy has an Access that was his first build, and he loves that bike. It's a 26", and it weighs about what my alu 29er does. He paid more for his frame than I paid for my d660 frame, but I got a great deal ($85). I'm not a so-called brand-snob (but I don't judge those that are), so after riding my friend's bike I'd be willing to give an Access carbon a try. At that pricepoint I'd give either of the frames discussed above a try. I don't like a bunch of stickers on my bike, so I'd lean toward the Chinese one if all other things were equal. If the Access one had subtle stickers and what not like my friend's does, it would make the choice a little tougher. I know that the price of a failure on any frame might be pretty high, but I'm not overly concerned with it. I'm sure that if I had had a carbon frame (from whatever manuf), my concern might go up a little.

    Anybody know the standover on this 17.5 frame? Is there a way to guess it based on the ETT length?

  62. #62
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    Carbotech. Subcontractor of carbon frames. Shown at Eurobike. Familiar lines...............
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    I am pretty curious to see these...

    ...but they will not show up my ebay.com...

    should I look elsewhere or try what search string?

  64. #64
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    They all look similar to an untrained eye, but people who know better can notice all the differences.

    They may look roughly similar on the outside but surely don't ride the same. There's a lot of engineering that goes into top of the line frames that give it certain desired ride characteristics. When they build, they know what they're after.

    With these copies, you are essentially buying a cheap counterfeit. It's no wonder people look down on them like designer clothes counterfeiters despite not really being a supporter of overpriced designer stuff.

    I like knowing about the minute details, seeing the cut out, and all the design schematics personally. A simple side view does little more for me except tell me that they at least have the ability to produce a frame that looks like another. I know a lot of people have a lot of voices in the back of their heads that are telling them to wait for an experienced reviewer that can sense the ride characteristics before gambling on this though if it seriously was exactly like a Specialized without decals, I'm sure more would jump on it since they know the difference between a Spec frame and a generic one (at least the amount of R&D that goes into one).

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis
    There's a lot of engineering that goes into top of the line frames that give it certain desired ride characteristics. When they build, they know what they're after.
    You sound right to these ears...

    Appart from that, I would get one if it was so cheap I would not mind losing the money - which is a different amount for each one of us...

    I' d rather go with a branded aluminum in any other case...

  66. #66
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    I don't mean to sound totally negative. I know some people are alright with "counterfeits". I mean, I do the same since I like a bit more bang for the buck. The price is right and at least they're similar material and serve a similar purpose.

    Personally, I'm more of an inbetweener. No namers worry me and I'd rather not dish out cash for a Trek, Spec, Pivot, SC, Turner, etc., but that Access frame surely interests me. I actually just pre-ordered a Motobecane Ti framed bike which probably is custom sourced by these guys:

    http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?rootcl=1&cls=1

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis
    They all look similar to an untrained eye, but people who know better can notice all the differences.

    They may look roughly similar on the outside but surely don't ride the same. There's a lot of engineering that goes into top of the line frames that give it certain desired ride characteristics. When they build, they know what they're after.

    With these copies, you are essentially buying a cheap counterfeit. It's no wonder people look down on them like designer clothes counterfeiters despite not really being a supporter of overpriced designer stuff.

    I like knowing about the minute details, seeing the cut out, and all the design schematics personally. A simple side view does little more for me except tell me that they at least have the ability to produce a frame that looks like another. I know a lot of people have a lot of voices in the back of their heads that are telling them to wait for an experienced reviewer that can sense the ride characteristics before gambling on this though if it seriously was exactly like a Specialized without decals, I'm sure more would jump on it since they know the difference between a Spec frame and a generic one (at least the amount of R&D that goes into one).
    By having them produced in China the name brands deliver all (or at least most) their R&D to the Chinese manufacturers. Plus I highly doubt that R&D is the reason for the price difference. Cost for marketing, distribution and warranty are likely much more than R&D.

  68. #68
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    A friend who used to import some chinese stuff (electronics) had told me that when you contact the chinese company they send you 5 or 6 different specs for the exact same thing.

    Prices differ according to the QR for each, Expensive ones are guaranteed to be flawless 90%, less costly 70% etc...

    So what they do to cut cost down is that they check less items per batch to meet specs.

    Ofcourse this may not be really checked by the importer, let alone the final buyer...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erWannabe
    A friend who used to import some chinese stuff (electronics) had told me that when you contact the chinese company they send you 5 or 6 different specs for the exact same thing.

    Prices differ according to the QR for each, Expensive ones are guaranteed to be flawless 90%, less costly 70% etc...

    So what they do to cut cost down is that they check less items per batch to meet specs.

    Ofcourse this may not be really checked by the importer, let alone the final buyer...
    Let's say a frame costs $250 to produce. The Chinese manufacturer can sell if for about $330 to Specialized or the end user. If Specialized buys the frame they will sell it for about $445 to the distributor who will sell if for about $600 to a LBS who will sell it for about $810 to the end user. The same frame is now 2.5x more but has some name brand stickers on it.

    The numbers will vary a bit but the principal will be the same. As long as you (the end-user) have no issues/questions everything will be great. If you do, you are likely screwed.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minimalist
    Let's say a frame costs $250 to produce. The Chinese manufacturer can sell if for about $330 to Specialized or the end user. If Specialized buys the frame they will sell it for about $445 to the distributor who will sell if for about $600 to a LBS who will sell it for about $810 to the end user. The same frame is now 2.5x more but has some name brand stickers on it.

    The numbers will vary a bit but the principal will be the same. As long as you (the end-user) have no issues/questions everything will be great. If you do, you are likely screwed.
    ...

    It's more like company has a design, looks for a production firm that is able to satisfactorily produce frames according to spec economically, with some of their own QA and/or managers to ensure it, and contracts them to produce the frames (contract notes that they own the rights to the design). Production firm uses its affiliated factories and material suppliers and create the tools and train the workers to use them properly. Materials probably cost $100 per frame, but the investment in tools, training, facilities, labor, storage, shipping, and other overhead tack on another $200 to the cost per frame. Company contracts distributors to collect it from the port and manage the flow to other warehouse distributors who charge $1200 (wholesale) to authorized dealers who then charge $2000 to a customer. Authorized dealers can only remain authorized if they strictly follow company's guidelines for retail sale.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erWannabe
    A friend who used to import some chinese stuff (electronics) had told me that when you contact the chinese company they send you 5 or 6 different specs for the exact same thing.

    Prices differ according to the QR for each, Expensive ones are guaranteed to be flawless 90%, less costly 70% etc...

    So what they do to cut cost down is that they check less items per batch to meet specs.

    Ofcourse this may not be really checked by the importer, let alone the final buyer...
    I think that's about right... carbon fiber is the ultimate mass production material for consistently high quality bicycle frames. Once the design and engineering is done, the more you make, the cost per frame is going to drop off a lot faster than it does for high quality steel and aluminum frames.

    If the frames come out of China, then inevitably China has a "Foxconn" for carbon bicycle frames that is cranking out huge frame volumes with variations for each bicycle company...e.g. drop-outs, head-tubes, bottom bracket shells, braze-ons, finish, etc. etc. That's just how they do things.

    I just wonder how much patented intellectual property is left in hard-tail frame design... obviously Specialized has patents on their full-suspension FSR geometry, but is there anything in their current HT carbon frame design that has been patented and that can't be easily circumvented?

    While this is all inevitable, it just makes service, support, warranty, marketing, etc. all that much more critical for the premium bike manufactuers Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Carbotech. Subcontractor of carbon frames. Shown at Eurobike. Familiar lines...............
    I would buy that frame today if it was available to the public. I would venture to say that it's price would be around 1/4 a specialized frame of similar quality.

  73. #73
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    One thing that would concern me is so much of what makes a great carbon frame...well, great...is on the the inside and hidden by the top layers and finish of the frame. I have seen cut-aways of CF Specialized and Giant frames that show the lay-ups, thicknesses, etc. The little details like hollow dropouts, all carbon shells, frames made of a few main sections instead of many pieces...I think there is enough there to potentially differentiate between framesets.

    However, maybe this 'generic' version is all that too. Maybe so. I don't know and really, I doubt anyone else here does either. You don't really know what you are getting. It may be great, good, or crummy. And if is crummy, who do you go to see about that? Hello, China? Anyone home?

    I guess, if it is cheap enough, it is worth a gamble.
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    Pulled this from the other thread. No layup details or anything. Just outer dimensions, tube shapes, and angles.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy
    However, maybe this 'generic' version is all that too. Maybe so. I don't know and really, I doubt anyone else here does either. You don't really know what you are getting. It may be great, good, or crummy. And if is crummy, who do you go to see about that? Hello, China? Anyone home?
    Pedal Force, among others, have stepped into that gap. You pay somewhat of a premium to have someone provide some accountability for you. The thing to keep in mind is that Chinese manufacturers don't desire to make bad products. To the extent they can take advantage of what they learn through contracting, they do so. This isn't a Chinese phenomenon, either. Once upon a time, a Japanese product was considered junk. No longer.

    As for no one here knowing what we will get, that's true but no one knows what they will get from a major brand, either. They know what to expect, and some of us know what to expect from a Chinese frame. I expect more difficulty with support should I need it, but I wouldn't buy it if I expected to need support.

    I would not hesistate to buy a carbon hardtail frame generic, there's just not much mystery on how to do that. Full suspension would be different.

  76. #76
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    Google: where's my bike made? It'll will link you to an article that is a few years old. It is the same story that has been going on for decades. Anyone remember steel bikes from the 80's? Aluminum bikes in the 90's? The recent/ongoing migration of Ti?

    I remember the first time I really started looking into this subject. I ended up buying an "Alpine" branded Giant frame with XT thumbies....still have it. Don't ride it but have it.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    I think that's about right... carbon fiber is the ultimate mass production material for consistently high quality bicycle frames. Once the design and engineering is done, the more you make, the cost per frame is going to drop off a lot faster than it does for high quality steel and aluminum frames.

    If the frames come out of China, then inevitably China has a "Foxconn" for carbon bicycle frames that is cranking out huge frame volumes with variations for each bicycle company...e.g. drop-outs, head-tubes, bottom bracket shells, braze-ons, finish, etc. etc. That's just how they do things.

    I just wonder how much patented intellectual property is left in hard-tail frame design... obviously Specialized has patents on their full-suspension FSR geometry, but is there anything in their current HT carbon frame design that has been patented and that can't be easily circumvented?

    While this is all inevitable, it just makes service, support, warranty, marketing, etc. all that much more critical for the premium bike manufactuers Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.
    I'm not sure that follows. The reason that CF frames are manufactured in low cost labor countries is that it's labor intensive. There is a one-time tooling cost, but a large part of the cost is labor. Something that is probably only going to get more expensive as time goes on (search for stories on blanket pay increases at Foxconn). If most of the cost was for manufacturing automation and materials, I expect that we would see more domestic production. Thinking that CF manufacturing costs will go down with scale is wishful thinking. If so, I think we'd start seeing it employed in manufacturing of much higher volume goods than higher-end bicycles.

    Also, similar to Titanium, a lot of the higher end raw CF is getting swallowed up by the aerospace industry. So what you're likely left with for these mass produced no-name frames is raw materials that are likely not QC'ed to the same level that Giant or Merida (Specialized) would accept for manufacturing.

  78. #78
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    That and inexperienced designers will go through multiple prototypes before they revise it to something everyone who has a chip in on the design can settle with. All those prototypes cost quite a lot of money and time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    I'm not sure that follows. The reason that CF frames are manufactured in low cost labor countries is that it's labor intensive. There is a one-time tooling cost, but a large part of the cost is labor. Something that is probably only going to get more expensive as time goes on (search for stories on blanket pay increases at Foxconn). If most of the cost was for manufacturing automation and materials, I expect that we would see more domestic production. Thinking that CF manufacturing costs will go down with scale is wishful thinking. If so, I think we'd start seeing it employed in manufacturing of much higher volume goods than higher-end bicycles.

    Also, similar to Titanium, a lot of the higher end raw CF is getting swallowed up by the aerospace industry. So what you're likely left with for these mass produced no-name frames is raw materials that are likely not QC'ed to the same level that Giant or Merida (Specialized) would accept for manufacturing.
    I've always read that the bladder-molded process for CF frame manufacturer had a high up-front cost, but once the molds were designed and in-use, the ongoing cost of manufacture was relatively low. Or are the Chinese manufacturers actually hand-wrapping CF frames? If they are, surely they've managed to keep the labor involved cheap and unskilled.

  80. #80
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    how do i find prices for this company's products. i like there carbon seat and there 29er frame?? any one riding there frames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669
    Supposedly size 17.5 is available now.
    Size 16 and 19 are coming out in a couple months but dont expect to get your hands on one till the beginning of the year. (I had been corresponding over email with an very very Asian dude named Loice)

    http://www.gotobike.com.cn/

    I would be interested in importing and selling on Ebay if i could find a good deal on em. These seem to be 600 USD a piece shipped from China.

    I am getting super stoked thinking about these frames. Hopefully they hold up as well as the 26er model.
    I have also been in contact with gotobike. Has anybody bought from them?

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    What's the warranty? Who do you call when it breaks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by walter-
    What's the warranty? Who do you call when it breaks?
    Actually I was looking at a tt bike, but from them. They said the warranty was 2yrs on the frame. Well I guess if it did break I would have to contact the same guy I had been talking with.
    sales manager (Stephen Cai)
    gotobike@vip.163.com
    Tel:0086-592-6530392
    Fax:0086-592-6514558

    I havn't bought anything yet. I was asking here to see if anybody had any feedback. That would suck to have a frame just break. I ride at an avg 21mph. Then again im not freeriding down a mountain either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walter-
    What's the warranty? Who do you call when it breaks?
    just buy 4 of them and you would still come out cheaper than 1 specialized carbon frame. That way if one breaks you always have a spare.

  85. #85
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    If i got this right, the frame takes a 34.9 seatpost? :|

  86. #86
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    it takes a 31.6

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    It would be useful if someone who has riden these posted with some info...

    Road frames like this are widely reviewed on the internet, but still unable to find a thing on the 29er...

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    Hmmm, I wonder what's in Taiwan for the pickin'? I'm off to Taiwan to Scuba and trailrun next week.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-bar
    It was 3 weeks and $640 to my door. Just think how much more it would be if it was actually branded...
    A couple more questions, if you don't mind: did you order straight from Go Bike? What was the order process like? Does that have a tapered head tube? Did you wind up selling it? Thanks!
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  90. #90
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    I was getting all sweaty but I blew up the diagram and the max tire size at the seat stay is 54mm. I don't know if I could live with that.

    Also, in answer to a question way early in the post: the reason they roll them out a size at a time is that carbon bikes come from molds and they are expensive. Better to produce a size and see if there are problems and then build a mold for another size, etc.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by totaan
    I have also been in contact with gotobike. Has anybody bought from them?
    Bump, still waiting on the frames that were supposed to be ready by now in the 17.5.
    Nice looking designed frame but not very forward thinking company as far as marketing. They are running the very old 12k weave as opposed to most that are now running the ud weave.
    I contacted them and suggesting doing a first run of the more up-to-date ud weave and they really did not understand I think. Possibly they have no one that looks at marketing opportunities and changes in demand. It is my understanding that to get the extra "art work" on the top layer you have to run another layer over a base of UD anyway.
    Read more carefully: They know how to do it and would do me a run of 50, but the 12k is what the U.S. bike industry used to think looked "cool" years ago, and they are still in that marketing mode so that will be there standard runs.
    Btw, caron wheels or even frames in emmarble.....yea right.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon 29er frames?-carbon-bike-frame-weaves.jpg  

    Last edited by ghawk; 10-15-2010 at 08:21 PM.

  92. #92
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    Your post do show that you need to study composites
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghawk
    Bump, still waiting on the frames that were supposed to be ready by now in the 17.5.
    Nice looking designed frame but not very forward thinking company as far as marketing. They are running the very old 12k weave as opposed to most that are now running the ud weave.
    I contacted them and suggesting doing a first run of the more up-to-date ud weave and they really did not understand I think. Possibly they have no one that looks at marketing opportunities and changes in demand. It is my understanding that to get the extra "art work" on the top layer you have to run another layer over a base of UD anyway.

    They know about UD.
    The majority of the unbranded Chinese road frames are available in 3k, 12k and UD.
    I have seen their unbranded wheels in marble too.

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    I just purchased a 16" from http://www.e-hongfu-bikes.com/ for $520 shipped to your door including headset. They have yet to list the frames on their website but if you email coby she will set you up.

    HongFu sports Equipment Co.,Ltd
    Tel: 086-0755-84119462
    cobychao@hotmail.com

    They seem to have pretty good customer service and allow you to pay via paypal which is nice.

    I will write up a review when it gets here and built. I currently race a 29er Specialized S Works and am very interested to breaking down each part and comparing the frames in full detail.
    Last edited by DaChosenOne; 12-04-2010 at 11:15 AM.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Pedal Force, among others, have stepped into that gap. You pay somewhat of a premium to have someone provide some accountability for you. The thing to keep in mind is that Chinese manufacturers don't desire to make bad products. To the extent they can take advantage of what they learn through contracting, they do so. This isn't a Chinese phenomenon, either. Once upon a time, a Japanese product was considered junk. No longer.

    As for no one here knowing what we will get, that's true but no one knows what they will get from a major brand, either. They know what to expect, and some of us know what to expect from a Chinese frame. I expect more difficulty with support should I need it, but I wouldn't buy it if I expected to need support.

    I would not hesistate to buy a carbon hardtail frame generic, there's just not much mystery on how to do that. Full suspension would be different.
    The reason the big-name frames cost so much more than the generic frames is that you're paying for the replacement frame up front. If don't mind buying your second generic frame separately, there's no real downside to saving money on the generic frame.

  96. #96
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  97. #97
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    Well the Niner has several advantages such as the ability to run SS, have larger tires, etc. I would definitely choose it over the more expensive Spec. frame and since I like SS that would be a deal breaker for the Chinese no-name frame too.

  98. #98
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    You can run any bike SS and why would you ever want to run anything bigger than a 2.25.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaChosenOne
    I just purchased a 16" from http://www.e-hongfu-bikes.com/ for $520 shipped to your door including headset. They have yet to list the frames on their website but if you email coby she will set you up.

    HongFu sports Equipment Co.,Ltd
    Tel: 086-0755-84119462
    cobychao@hotmail.com

    They seem to have pretty good customer service and allow you to pay via paypal which is nice.

    I will write up a review when it gets here and built. I currently race a 29er Specialized S Works and am very interested to breaking down each part and comparing the frames in full detail.
    Did they send you a photo or drawing of the frame? Or did you buy it without seeing what it is going to be like? Geometry? I'm assuming they sent you something. Can you post whatever it is, photo, drawing, geometry numbers, etc?

    Thanks!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaChosenOne
    You can run any bike SS and why would you ever want to run anything bigger than a 2.25.
    a 2.4 tire on a SS rigid or hardtail is night and day difference in grip, comfort and reliability, the weigh difference is minimal.

    being able to run a 2.4 on the back was the starting point of my current SS bike. then price, $75.99(access), then weight(3.04g in medium).
    so my afro now sticks out of my helmet.

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