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  1. #8401
    Ene
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    This was my second frame from china. First one was from some random seller on aliexpress. Was packed ok in a larger box and was shipped under 7 days to me. Paid $350 with free shiping. Xmiplay charged me $90 in shiping + used a box better suited for a 15.5 " frame and just under 2 weeks to my door.

    Guess you dont always get what you pay for.

  2. #8402
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I think the frames are nice and a good deal and I'm sure that at least 9 out of 10 frames arrive in perfect condition, but saving a few hundred bucks would mean a lot less to me if I received a frame like Ene's and then got a note telling me to bust out the hammer and spray paint.
    I agree, getting a damaged frame is not good for anyone, not for the buyer, not for the seller. You do take a risk ordering anything (not just carbon frames) from half way around the world, if there is a problem, it will typically be the buyer's problem as the customer service out of China is comparatively minimal.

    So you need to ask yourself is it worth it to you if there is a problem. If the seller will not pay to ship the frame back, I suppose it's up to the buyer to bear that cost. I'm sure XMIplay would be happy to exchange the frame if the buyer were to pay to ship it back. Again, the margins are so thin, the China sellers are reluctant to lose money on the sale in order to make an exchange.

    If I were to purchase a Specialized Carbon hardtail frame, my cost would be right around $1,800. If I purchase an equivalent Chinese Carbon 29er frame my cost is $400+$75 shipping cost. So, I can buy 3.8 Chinese carbon frames for the cost of one Specialized frame. Now, if it cost me an extra $150 to exchange the damaged frame, my cost becomes $625, still 1/3rd the cost of the Specialized frame. So, of course I would hope that if I had originally paid nearly 4 times the cost purchasing the Specialized frame and I had a problem, I would expect Specialized to step up and ship me a replacement at no cost but in fact I've already paid for 3-4 new frames when I purchased the first one.

    So you see, even if they buyer needs to spend more to get a flawless frame, he is still ahead by nearly $1200 over buying a big brand frame. Yes he paid more than someone like me who didn't have a problem, but that is what can happen when you choose to not pay the price premium in the first place.

    Obviously the economics work, otherwise these vendors would not be in business and this thread would not be 336 pages long.

  3. #8403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic_Dude View Post
    So you see, even if they buyer needs to spend more to get a flawless frame, he is still ahead by nearly $1200 over buying a big brand frame. Yes he paid more than someone like me who didn't have a problem, but that is what can happen when you choose to not pay the price premium in the first place.

    Obviously the economics work, otherwise these vendors would not be in business and this thread would not be 336 pages long.
    Doing my part to extend the 336 pages-

    The economic bias favoring the Chinese 29'er works well in your example but other deals can be found. I just bought a Niner carbon (which I admit is eerily similar to some of the Chinese frames available) for $900 painted, which I prefer and is ~$75-$100 option on most overseas versions, with a 5 year semi-local warranty.

    So for me the math worked out to around $300 difference.

  4. #8404
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    I agree J.B. Weld, if it were only a $300 difference (but is really $425 difference using my example), I believe many people would go with the Niner frame with a 5 year warranty.

    However, this helps to make my point, what was the retail price of that Niner frame before it was discounted? I'd guess $1,500-$1,800 but you were able to find a deal on it at half price. Once the retail price of the Niner frame is down to $900, the Chinese vendors will need to drop there price to $300 to still be a third the big brand bikes. Which, if you check eBay, lots of Chinese frames are selling for close to $300 with free shipping.

    There is one Chinese vendor, possibly HongFu or DengFu, who have setup a US Warranty location for shipping problems and factory defects. So anyone in the US can ship the defective frame at a much lower cost to the warranty address and get a replacement shipped back to them. This is only one step away from the big name brands, actually very similar, I know many owners who have had to pay a small amount to a LBS to process a warranty issue so even in our example of $900 vs $300, if there is decent customer service, people will tend to lean toward saving $600 and forego the Niner name on their bike frame. Even if the difference was less, look at Walmart, I hate the place but they bring Americans the cheapest goods from China and even though you may only save a few bucks, people flock to Walmart despite the poor customer service experience.

  5. #8405
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    Which frame compares closely with a superfly

  6. #8406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbof View Post
    Which frame compares closely with a superfly
    Instead of being so lazy that you can't even use punctuation at the end of your question, how about you read two dozen pages of this thread?


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  7. #8407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Instead of being so lazy that you can't even use punctuation at the end of your question, how about you read two dozen pages of this thread?
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree, you look through this thread and there are many people who post "which frame is like this or that" as one of their first posts. I'm with you, if you want to learn something about the carbon frame you want to order, do some research and figure out which frame is the one that works best for you, don't ask someone else to do the work for you.

    It's not like we are all sitting around with a list of what frame is most like another brand name frame.

  8. #8408
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    Thanks for the input

  9. #8409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbof View Post
    Thanks for the input
    Quote Originally Posted by Tbof View Post
    Which frame compares closely with a superfly
    Another site I used to go own would have gotten you this answer....try the search button.
    Huge amounts of info in this thread and it should be easy to pick your frame from it including who and who not to buy it from.

  10. #8410
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    you guys been discussing Chinese frame qualities for days now, and i feel partially responsible.

    This is my 2nd Chinese frame. 1st one was flawless and still rides. This one came with a problem but it's solved. I know haters jump immediately on the opportunity to speak baldly of the Chinese frames, but honestly this things and worse also happens on frames from big manufacturers. A Cannondale that brakes dropout in the 1st ride. The first Scales 29 with the rear wheel problem. ....

    I would do it again, just had a bit of bad luck, but in the end all is solved... move one, discuss other things

    And from my experience and friends in my country is easier to reason with a chinese vendor than a LBS vendor, most of the times.

  11. #8411
    Ene
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    Hey!

    Update on my xmiplay and Peter problems.

    I opend a dispute on PayPal. Today PP ruled in my favor. Im now shipping it back to Peter for a full refund.

    A tip for ppl thinking of buying from China. Pay the full amount (seller told me to split my payment in two parts, i paid full) as PP only covers if you paid the full amount.

    And by my experience, dont buy from xmiplay or take you chances

  12. #8412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Hey!

    Update on my xmiplay and Peter problems.

    I opend a dispute on PayPal. Today PP ruled in my favor. Im now shipping it back to Peter for a full refund.

    A tip for ppl thinking of buying from China. Pay the full amount (seller told me to split my payment in two parts, i paid full) as PP only covers if you paid the full amount.

    And by my experience, dont buy from xmiplay or take you chances
    I got my frame from XMI play and it went well...not amazingly well but once the parts arrived everything looked really nice and probably better than I was anticipating. Ive ridden mine about 600 miles so far and ridden it harder than possibly it was designed for and its perfect.
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  13. #8413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Hey!

    Update on my xmiplay and Peter problems.

    I opend a dispute on PayPal. Today PP ruled in my favor. Im now shipping it back to Peter for a full refund.

    A tip for ppl thinking of buying from China. Pay the full amount (seller told me to split my payment in two parts, i paid full) as PP only covers if you paid the full amount.

    And by my experience, dont buy from xmiplay or take you chances
    That's great news. Good luck with whatever you replace it with.

  14. #8414
    Ene
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyfloyd View Post
    I got my frame from XMI play and it went well...not amazingly well but once the parts arrived everything looked really nice and probably better than I was anticipating. Ive ridden mine about 600 miles so far and ridden it harder than possibly it was designed for and its perfect.
    The frame looked great and I can recomend ordering frames from china. Just not from XMIplay as Peters customer service was beyond shitty.

  15. #8415
    Ene
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    That's great news. Good luck with whatever you replace it with.
    Going German this time. Canyon Strive or Spectral.

  16. #8416
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    Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with XMIplay, I have placed four different orders with Peter and every time nothing but top notch customer service, even when I had a problem on two occasions Peter resolved my issues quickly with no addition expense on my part.

  17. #8417
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    So far so good on my XMIPlay frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Hey!

    Update on my xmiplay and Peter problems.

    I opend a dispute on PayPal. Today PP ruled in my favor. Im now shipping it back to Peter for a full refund.

    A tip for ppl thinking of buying from China. Pay the full amount (seller told me to split my payment in two parts, i paid full) as PP only covers if you paid the full amount.

    And by my experience, dont buy from xmiplay or take you chances
    I've got over 100 miles on my IP-256, which is the updated frame they are making at XMIPlay. It took a while for them to build it, but the local framebuilder / bike shop nearby (Silva Cycles) thought it was a pretty nice frame and fork.
    As you can see from my attachment, i've put some hard climbing on this bike. I'm using a BEER ECC and it started creaking after only 40 miles - but so far the frame has been excellent. I'll know more with time, but it has been a fun ride so far.
    Name:  firefly.jpg
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Size:  86.8 KBName:  Screen Shot 2015-02-05 at 5.26.48 PM.png
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  18. #8418
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterQ520 View Post
    What do you guys this about this ? Threaten or what ? We tried to solve the problem and offer partial refund, but not like this, he refused and opened the PayPal dispute and changed to claim directly, he thought PayPal could stand by him and help him out, right , PP wants me to refund the payment to him and he has to send me frame back as well.

    We offer good service to customers, but not for these guys who will importune or threaten you when he got an item with a little defect, do not mean this time.

    So I asked him to ship the frame back, even we will pay taxes and get a loss on that frame. I have customers from Germany and the US get same status when they receive the frames (the alloy part was distorted ), sometimes it happens even we didn't want, so we packed the frame as well as we can. We refunded partially to them, one customer from the US didn't ask me for any refund and he said he could solve this by himself. We always try to find out a good way to solve any problem between us.
    The whole idea of a partial refund is BS from the start. The bloke paid an amount for a specified product. Give him the amount back or give him the specified product. If it gets damaged in transit, sort the shit out and stop carrying on like a victim.

  19. #8419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic_Dude View Post
    Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with XMIplay, I have placed four different orders with Peter and every time nothing but top notch customer service, even when I had a problem on two occasions Peter resolved my issues quickly with no addition expense on my part.
    The only thing that happens more than Peter's spamming in this thread is your shilling. No doubt he'll be looking after his shill. If we got rid of your shilling and his spamming, the bloody thread would half it's size.

  20. #8420
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCarpet View Post
    The only thing that happens more than Peter's spamming in this thread is your shilling. No doubt he'll be looking after his shill. If we got rid of your shilling and his spamming, the bloody thread would half it's size.
    Shilling implies Peter is paying me to say positive things about his company, sorry that's just not true. I've never said anything against your posts on this forum, I see no reason for your negative remarks against me. If you do not want to be part of this discussion and contribute something that might help a fellow rider, I see no reason for you to troll here. As for the size of this thread, I guess Chiners are just way more popular than those brands priced 3x more and many MTBR members, who are happy with their purchases, like to share what they know. I see no reason to whine about it.

  21. #8421
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCarpet View Post
    The whole idea of a partial refund is BS from the start. The bloke paid an amount for a specified product. Give him the amount back or give him the specified product. If it gets damaged in transit, sort the shit out and stop carrying on like a victim.
    Given the nuisance involved, there is nothing wrong with a partial refund, given defect is superficial. Which, unfortunately is not the case here.

    Why the outrage? Stuff happens, there was no malice involved. Recorded for posterity, move on.

  22. #8422
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    A scratch or the wrong colour is worthy of a partial refund. A cracked head tube warrants a full replacement. They should have just replaced it and covered the shipping. The loss of profit on one frame was not worth all the negative press they received here. How many sales were lost due to people reading this. Very very bad PR move. Even if the product is great many will move on due what has transpired here.

  23. #8423
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    Fun guy Peter. Says he have to pay $150 just to recive the frame back but can only refund me $40.

  24. #8424
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    I would take pictures of how you package your return. He mentioned returning it in same condition in his little outburst here. I am sure paypal will sort it out properly but play it safe.

  25. #8425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic_Dude View Post
    Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with XMIplay, I have placed four different orders with Peter and every time nothing but top notch customer service, even when I had a problem on two occasions Peter resolved my issues quickly with no addition expense on my part.
    Thats great, mind if I ask what kind of issues you had?

  26. #8426
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    Must say that it feels kinda sketchy sending the frame back. The adress I got is a private one and by the looks to some sort of residencial housing. Wonder why its not to company HQ. Also whats feels lika a red flag is that Peter rather pay $190 to get back a broken frame than refund me.

    My take on this is:

    Peter is not paying anything to recive the frame back. Maybe the frame "wont" even arrive so I dont get a refund.

    He uses the hammer and paint fix on the frame and sells it to the next sucker who orders one. (Gets me to wonder if my frame alredy was "fixed" in that reagard)

    --------------

    Maybe Im thinking the worst of XMIPlay and Peter but hes not giving me any reason not to.

  27. #8427
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    I also got a frame from XMI play, and am happy with it... but this partial refund is unacceptable. If you pay a price for something, and it comes either damaged or with a major defect, you should be made whole. I also understand with partial refund for something only cosmetic. The seller is responsible for EVERYTHING that happens until it reaches the hands of the buyer. If the frame arrives with issues and it needs to be sent back, then the buyer shouldnt be out anything.

    If the buyer thinks that $300 off of a $600 frame for that particular defect is acceptable, then so be it. Personally, I think that frame is useless and would only take it for free.

    If most of your clients are overseas, you have to take steps to guarantee your product arrives in an acceptable condition. If it doesnt, and you need to pay a bunch of ******** fees to fix it, then thats your (the sellers) problem. Thats the cost for you to have an operation based in another country.

    My frame from XMI came undamaged, but the box was significantly damaged. I was convinced once unwrapping I would find damage, but I didnt. I feel I was lucky. The fact that they think these frames are wrapped to the best of their abilities makes me think theyre either ignorant, or liars.
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  28. #8428
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    Chinese custom when packaging bicycle frames is to drop it In a box of the thinnest and poorest quality material. Staples it three times, light some incense, mumble some Chinese jibber jabber as a prayer and then punt it into the back of the mail truck.

  29. #8429
    Ene
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracer650 View Post
    Chinese custom when packaging bicycle frames is to drop it In a box of the thinnest and poorest quality material. Staples it three times, light some incense, mumble some Chinese jibber jabber as a prayer and then punt it into the back of the mail truck.
    Fixed it for you XD

  30. #8430
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    So notify PayPal of this address change. As this plot thickens so does the pool of people who will shop elsewhere. I can't believe someone would jeopardize their business name over a single piece of their product.

    Have you considered contacting someone else at xmi?

  31. #8431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    So notify PayPal of this address change. As this plot thickens so does the pool of people who will shop elsewhere. I can't believe someone would jeopardize their business name over a single piece of their product.

    Have you considered contacting someone else at xmi?
    Definitely notify paypal. However as a sales agent for this factory Peter may not actually visit there often. Sending to his residence might actually be a good thing. I wouldn't be surprised if he is just buying the frames from a factory and reselling them to you. Having the factory DROP ship your frames.

  32. #8432
    Ene
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    So notify PayPal of this address change. As this plot thickens so does the pool of people who will shop elsewhere. I can't believe someone would jeopardize their business name over a single piece of their product.

    Have you considered contacting someone else at xmi?
    After some digging the address seems to be legit, so my bad there.

    Shipping it tomorrow. Must say its a pita sorting out shipping and custom forms. Wish me luck

  33. #8433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracer650 View Post
    Chinese custom when packaging bicycle frames is to drop it In a box of the thinnest and poorest quality material. Staples it three times, light some incense, mumble some Chinese jibber jabber as a prayer and then punt it into the back of the mail truck.
    An XXS frame I got for my daughter - random seller on alibaba who had the smallest 26r - was packaged as well as anything. Many layers of bubble wrap. Actually was mildly annoying to cut through all of it.
    Still did not build it up.

  34. #8434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    An XXS frame I got for my daughter - random seller on alibaba who had the smallest 26r - was packaged as well as anything. Many layers of bubble wrap. Actually was mildly annoying to cut through all of it.
    Still did not build it up.
    Random seller who cared! Their not all packaged bad but I have seen some terrible packing jobs. Just poking fun

  35. #8435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    After some digging the address seems to be legit, so my bad there.

    Shipping it tomorrow. Must say its a pita sorting out shipping and custom forms. Wish me luck
    PayPal is good at covering customer.
    Risk of shipping damage and return hassle is cost of dealing with direct overseas sellers. Just factored into the price. I think this thread had too much drama over that.

  36. #8436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracer650 View Post
    Random seller who cared! Their not all packaged bad but I have seen some terrible packing jobs. Just poking fun
    Worst packing job for a frame I bought was for a fancy custom Nicolai. It was just rattling in the box. Thankfully, that thing can be shipped without a box with no ill effects.

  37. #8437
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    My frame from XMI came in a large box, and the frame wasnt packed as well as ive seen but the box was infact in perfect shape. Either way, going in I knew of any potential risks but the frame was cheap. If I had to do it again, I would probably just find the cheapest chinese frame that fits my geometry criteria and get it.
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  38. #8438
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    I think the point of this is that in order for a cheap frame to be worth while for you to purchase over the more expensive frames there has to be increased value. Cheaper price but with increased risk is not good value. For companies like this to remain competitive they must offer a near as good quality product with near as good or as good customer service. Without the value people will just shop and purchase the more expensive frames. Failure to provide good customer service will equal the demise of the company. For every bad review you need 100 good reviews to counteract the damage. This entire industry would not exist (China direct frames) if people didn't think they could get a close to equal quality part at a fraction of the price with close to equal customer service.

  39. #8439
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    this is just going from bad to worst

  40. #8440
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    Hmmmm - I just ordered a frame from xmiplay. I do hope they learn from this and perhaps start packing a little better from now on .....
    2015 IP-057 Rigid 1x10
    2010 XTC 29-1

  41. #8441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jethrow View Post
    Hmmmm - I just ordered a frame from xmiplay. I do hope they learn from this and perhaps start packing a little better from now on .....
    I wouldnt worry about it, mine was perfect when I recieved it.
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  42. #8442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jethrow View Post
    Hmmmm - I just ordered a frame from xmiplay. I do hope they learn from this and perhaps start packing a little better from now on .....
    What did you order?

  43. #8443
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    I am hoping to get a FS frame this spring with my tax return so this last experience on here has me wondering who to order it from. I also didn't like Peters comments on how others have had the same issue. Obviously room to improve packing and obviously room to improve customer service. So glad the bad experience was shared. I don't have a ton of free cash to risk having this happen to me. An " I told you so " from my wife would be devastating

  44. #8444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Cheaper price but with increased risk is not good value.
    Of course it is, for a low enough level of risk. And vast majority of customers are satisfied.
    Even the case discussed here he will get money back. Just a little time lost. Customer service was just fine - seller was reachable and will accept a return. Nothing else is really needed here. Had we been expecting a handjob along with that PayPal refund?
    The only risk worth caring about is catastrophic failure when riding. And that happened to all brands, big and small.

  45. #8445
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    Seller gave buyer a hard time then complained about it here. Not good PR. In the end the buyer made out ok but seriously to have his emails posted on a public forum? $40 was a joke, money refunded again is not what the customer really wants, he wants a frame. The best course of action from a company (as it seems many get from big name frame companies) would be an apology and a replacement. Not a DIY and a few bucks. Mickey mouse at best. Yes the buyer is maybe (we haven't heatd yet) getting a refund but still has no frame and time lost.

  46. #8446
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    Chinese Carbon 29er

    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Seller gave buyer a hard time then complained about it here. Not good PR. In the end the buyer made out ok but seriously to have his emails posted on a public forum? $40 was a joke, money refunded again is not what the customer really wants, he wants a frame. The best course of action from a company (as it seems many get from big name frame companies) would be an apology and a replacement. Not a DIY and a few bucks. Mickey mouse at best. Yes the buyer is maybe (we haven't heatd yet) getting a refund but still has no frame and time lost.
    Boohoo. Shipping damage from over seas happens. Said customer took to public whining before trying to resolve it and tried to pressure the seller into a 50% partial refund using this forum as leverage. I do not see how that is any nicer at all.

    You want to cut middleman, you need to deal with middleman's problems. And as if people do not have warranty problems when buying locally.

  47. #8447
    Finally!
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    How long have you worked for XMIplay?
    This should never have gotten to the forum. Should have been "sorry Sir , we can replace it for you asap or if you wish to try to fix it on your own we can work out a refund for your trouble." Also if they were going to be out $150 on a return it should have been offered as the refund. $25 was a joke at best as was even $40. This was pefect opportunity to prove they can "run with the big boys" and they blew it. This could have been a positive PR situation and had it have been handled professionally the people reading this would think " great people to spend my money with" as opposed to "hmmm not sure I want to take a chance with them" If you disagree that's fine. Others will spend their money accordingly and decide based on what they learn from threads like this or blogs from others experiences. To bad Peter missed the boat and chose the route he did. Not good for business, especially skeptical long distance business.

  48. #8448
    Ene
    Ene is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Boohoo. Said customer took to public whining before trying to resolve it and tried to pressure the seller into a 50% partial refund using this forum as leverage. I do not see how that is any nicer at all.
    Wow you must be psychic going by that Comment. I tried to solve this in a lot of ways and Xmiplays answer was, 25 bucks rf a hammer and some paint. Well feel free by me to pay 800 usd for a frame void of warranty and a busted headtube. After that I went to PayPal. It took PP 1 day after reviewing my case to rule in my favor for a full refund.

  49. #8449
    bigger is better ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restyle View Post
    What did you order?
    IP-057 and the matching forks. I am looking forwards to receiving it. It's a replacement for my XTC 29er which was stolen over christmas ....
    2015 IP-057 Rigid 1x10
    2010 XTC 29-1

  50. #8450
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    mine arrived ok, but i too looked at the frame and i did not see enough foam to protect in case of some bad handling in transport... Xmiplay could improve there

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