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  1. #1
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    Carbon goodness from Turner........

    posted in the Turner forum, looks great, can't wait to hear some details. Carbon goodness from Turner........-carbon-turner.jpg
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  2. #2
    usually cranky
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    wondering when turner would finally get with carbon.

  3. #3
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    :-0
    '12 Santa Cruz Superlight 29 | '12 Santa Cruz Butcher | '06 Specialized Allez Comp | '81 Schwinn Converted Fixie

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    Is it still made in the USA ?

  5. #5
    Daniel the Dog
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    I think carbon frames are made in molds and my understanding is it doesn't matter if they are made in China or Kentucky. I guess the process is filthy.

    I have two carbon bikes and enjoy the heck out of them. Personally I would not bother with a long travel carbon bike but leave carbon for a 4" travel 29er racer type bike.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    I think carbon frames are made in molds and my understanding is it doesn't matter if they are made in China or Kentucky.
    Molds are used, but it's infinitely more labor intensive than the injection molding that you're probably thinking of. The Ibis website has a good primer on the subject.

    A USA built carbon full squish would be cost prohibitive (US sourced road frames start around four grand and go up from there), but Taiwan and even China are pretty much state of the art anyway since that is where all the big brands have been building their bikes for some time now. Kind of a shame, especially for a company like Turner that has been such a Made in the USA stalwart, but it's just the way things are. Case in point: Devinci, a company much larger than Turner but equally committed to domestic manufacturing (Canadian in their case), also imports their carbon models.

    Geo-economics aside, this frame has been a long time coming and I'm stoked that it's finally seeing the light of day.
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  7. #7
    reading comprehension wat
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    New Turner spotted... it's CARBON!

    Dave Turner was said to be rocking this at VQ/CC. VQ/CC = VisionQuest/CountingCoup race?

    Dave Turner's comments in a July '12, well under a year ago, interview:

    BIKERUMOR: Do you think a brand today can grow or remain relevant in the mainstream without offering a carbon fiber bike?
    TURNER: No. I’m basing that answer on the verbatim question…in the mainstream. Not a high end brand. A brand like Turner Bikes, or any other niche brand, can because it’s a higher end item that’s aimed at a different segment. The big advertising budgets of the big companies have conditioned riders to think that carbon is the pinnacle. A small brand, particularly those in the dirt jump/downhill segment could grow for quite a while on just metal frames.

    BIKERUMOR: Do you think riders are still interested in high end alloy frames?
    TURNER: Absolutely. It keeps us, and others like us, in business. It’s small volume, and the number is shrinking as the lightweight lure of carbon attracts more customers. Part of aluminum’s draw is the durability. A dented alloy frame can be ridden for years, but impact a carbon frame and it’s expensive, usually not warrantied and needs immediate replacement.

    BIKERUMOR: If so, what’s the price ceiling for what they seem willing to spend on alloy before they jump to carbon bikes?
    TURNER: In our case, for many riders we are at or just above the ceiling. We’re right at $2,400-$2,500 retail for a frame. Does that mean we’re on the roof? Each rider has to decide what their ceiling is. This is something I think the press has a tremendous sway on what people will spend. When you look at a 180lb rider with gear, a trail bike, dropper post, hydration pack, etc., a pound and a half on the frame means f**king nothing. Nothing!As our customers weigh these things out, they look more at the rotational weight and their own body weight. These people take a dump that’s a bigger difference than the a 5 Spot and a Blur LTc. Our bikes are expensive because we’re paying for U.S. labor. Our frames and parts are made and machined here, and we’re using higher quality tubing. Our margins are the same or sometimes slightly less than bigger brands, so it’s not like we’re gouging anyone.

    BIKERUMOR: What led you to the decision to (or not to, as the case may be) offer carbon fiber frames?
    TURNER: Going back three, four years, I thought that the support for US-made product would be greater in 2012. I made the decision a few years ago not to pursue carbon because the only way to offer it at a reasonable price was to make it in Asia. At the dealer, an imported carbon bike is likely to retail for the same as a US-made alloy bike. Even some of the small brands’ carbon offerings prices are starting to creep up. We researched US-made carbon, but the price would have put us in the realm of a high end road bike, and mountain bikers just aren’t going to buy a $4,000 frame. We have many customers that don’t want anything to do with carbon because they’re afraid of wrecking or just falling over on a rock and cracking or crushing a tube. That said, we did decide more recently that we need to pursue carbon to grow, and we’re working on something. It is going to have to be imported, though. Maybe that’ll change some day, manufacturing costs in Asia are going up.

    BIKERUMOR: As a small company, what are the main hurdles to producing a carbon fiber bike? Are they financial, logistical, both and/or something else entirely?
    TURNER: It’s a huge up front cost. The tooling is considerably higher than some welding fixtures in order to do a competitive mountain bike frame. It’s not only the main tools, there’s the sub tools to make the dropout bits and pivot parts. Not to mention a vast amount of engineering that has to be done perfectly. Whatever the computer shape is, if there are any waves or ripples because of less than perfect computer design, they translate into the molds, and then they’d have to be filled in with putty or otherwise finished. And they would compromise frame integrity. It has to be perfection. Every little transition and radius. You either pay more up front for the design and tooling, or you pay more in the end for finishing and fixes. And for us, it’s not only a foreign country, but it’s a foreign material and process, so our development cycle has been really long. And we have yet to experience the logistics of importing them, that’s a whole ‘nother world to learn.

    BIKERUMOR: How do development cycles and costs differ between launching a new alloy model versus a new carbon model?
    TURNER: For us, offering a new alloy mode is much quicker. Historically, all of our new models are sequential, very much related to their predecessors. We move tubes and pivots, modify an extrusion and share parts like rockers. This minimizes our development costs and time. That has a big impact on a company our size. The carbon, the best I can tell, every single carbon bike is a different animal. Everything is fresh, you can’t just take an existing BB and pivot system and repurpose it. Each cost will be high and the same. There’s no shared platform in a monocoque frame structure. That’s why our RFX still isn’t in production…it couldn’t share enough parts with our other bikes, and people just weren’t going to pay $3,000 for an alloy bike that gets shuttled up the mountain.

    BIKERUMOR: What are the minimums required for outsourced production of an alloy frame versus a carbon frame?
    TURNER
    : They’re not much different. Once you get the point of actually ordering, they’re quite similar. You still have to produce hundreds in the first batch for both, and there’s a minimum number per size (25 at Sapa). That’s why so many companies don’t do more than a few sizes. Those odd ducks, the XS and XL, they can’t justify the money hanging there unless they’re big. What I’ve experienced in our slow ramp up to carbon is that the minimums are the same.

    BIKERUMOR: Anything else you’d like to add?
    TURNER
    : If there were anyone in the US that could make a quality carbon frame and let it come in at the same retail as a high end alloy frame, I’d much rather use them. I could fly there, meet with them, have a beer and be home in the time it takes to go one way to Asia. If we don’t make s**t here, we’re in trouble, but even if I made the carbon frames here, it would barely register. One line of washing machines made here would have a far greater impact on our GDP than anything Turner Bikes is going to do. Jeff Steber (Intense) built an entire factory with all the machinery here to produce high end alloy frames in house, but even they’ve gone to imported carbon frames. And when all the other brands left the US for manufacturing, Sapa looked at the small amount of business remaining and had to close.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    A USA built carbon full squish would be cost prohibitive
    If you don't count Trek's OCLV carbon FS frames?

  9. #9
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    I got the impression that Trek's OCLV US frame production is maxed out and many OCLV models are Asian-made, including their new Superfly 100 SL and some of their cheaper Madone models.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    I got the impression that Trek's OCLV US frame production is maxed out and many OCLV models are Asian-made, including their new Superfly 100 SL and some of their cheaper Madone models.
    They have shifted more frames overseas due to capacity (50K US frames/yr) but they still make the Session DH frameset in WI. Up until 2013 the 9.9 models (like the Remedy) were made in the US too.

    2013 Demo Carbon (Asia) $4000 MSRP
    2013 Session Carbon (USA) $4409.99 MSRP

    Premium for USA made 10% - that's not cost prohibitive

    You can pick up a US made 2012 Remedy 9.9 frameset for about $3000 right now. It can be done.

    Its just like the BS about smartphones can't be made in the first world. Nokia did it for a decade in the EU (ever more costly than the US) before their obsolete Symbian platform, not manufacturing, killed them.

    Nokia N9 Journey - YouTube
    Last edited by syadasti; 04-06-2013 at 10:01 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti View Post
    if you don't count trek's oclv carbon fs frame?
    Fixed it for you.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a US made carbon FS bike from Turner, and would have no problem paying a premium for such (I think the 10-20% premium their US built alloy frames command is quite reasonable). But if that's not an option, I can't blame DT for importing one rather than not doing it at all.

    Now how about a semi-controversial subject that actually matters on the trail- those chainstays look ~17.5" to anyone else?
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  12. #12
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    Turner CZAR, to be unveiled officially at Sea Otter, apparently. So far, it seems to have XC endurance design intentions. Trademark was registered Feb '09, so it's been planned for a while.
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  13. #13
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    Dave Turner gets to brag about his 9th place finish aboard the CZAR in the Counting Coup, ~44 miles, ~8000ft elevation gain, completed in 4hr 15mins at the age of 49, out of an open field of over 145 participants. Looks like his wife made it in 35th place, in 5hrs 5mins (on the Flux, and 2nd female to cross).

    2013 Counting Coup Results
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  14. #14
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    I've very rarely heard bad word about Turner CS, they always seem to go above and beyond, most of the time, seem like a great company, but the owner is notorious for eating his words, "I'll never do a 29er", I'll never do carbon", despite being an avid MTBer, he's still all about the money, no matter how he likes to make he isn't. Flame away.
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  15. #15
    WIRVNTANASHRSH?
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    He wants to make a living? HOW SHOCKING!

    Are you willing to work "in the industry" without it being about the money? Because if so, we are hiring (we don't pay sh$t).

    Back to the bike:
    Anyone have any geo information or speculation? Wondering how short he was able to get the chainstays with the DW link. I see a bend in the seat tube and direct mount FD which is promising!

  16. #16
    Carbon & Ti rule
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I've very rarely heard bad word about Turner CS, they always seem to go above and beyond, most of the time, seem like a great company, but the owner is notorious for eating his words, "I'll never do a 29er", I'll never do carbon", despite being an avid MTBer, he's still all about the money, no matter how he likes to make he isn't. Flame away.
    Come on Lynx, He is doing what his customers are asking for.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Come on Lynx, He is doing what his customers are asking for.
    I would have to agree with the others Lynx, you are way off base. I know Dave personally, have ridden with him, had dinner with him...shot the sh!t with him countless times. If there is a more stand up, no nonsense guy in the industry...I have no idea who it could be. DT is the dux nuhtz! But yeah...shame on him for trying to make a living


  18. #18
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    actually, Trek builds cost effective carbon frames in the US, it is possible.

  19. #19
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    Carbon goodness from Turner........

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I've very rarely heard bad word about Turner CS, they always seem to go above and beyond, most of the time, seem like a great company, but the owner is notorious for eating his words, "I'll never do a 29er", I'll never do carbon", despite being an avid MTBer, he's still all about the money, no matter how he likes to make he isn't. Flame away.
    I believe you are misquoting him. He said he wasn't that fond of 29ers, but designed and built the Sultan because there was so much demand.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  20. #20
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    Wow, what negativity. Times change and no one's perfect. A few lines shouldn't make someone's rep turn into instant crap, which sadly is the risk high profile people face whenever they speak. My current impression of DT is fairly recent, mainly consisting of his responses in that BikeRumor interview, and I get a far better vibe from him. He doesn't **** gold, he doesn't impart his artistic visions on how things should be with a wave of his arm, and he doesn't seem worth worshipping... what's the big deal? He answers the demand of fellow mountain bikers, which is more than a vast majority of others here do. He's running a business, not a charity. I recommend people read that Interview again (see this post).
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    Now how about a semi-controversial subject that actually matters on the trail- those chainstays look ~17.5" to anyone else?
    17.4"- nice work DT! And a somewhat relaxed head angle (for a 4" XC bike) and nice longish top tube to boot- I think I'm in love!

    Carbon FIber Turner Czar 29er Full Suspension Race Bike Gets Official - Bike Rumor
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    (Waiting for the PF30 BB comments from the peanut gallery)

  23. #23
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    XL in Orange, 120 fork, carbon wheels, sign me up

  24. #24
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    Talus 120-95 would make for quite the versatile machine would it not!

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    OldGloryMTB.com | American Made Mountain Biking

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